Inspire only works as a self-healing tool if you are Leader of Men, which I am not.
...
If any of these self-healing captains wish to prove me wrong, and want to heal themselves through a difficult boss fight or large group of difficult monsters on their own without any CC I welcome the chance to be proved wrong.[
Not accurate if I understand what you are asaying. If you trait Fellowship Brother you'll get the group inspire heal if you pick Shield Brother or Blade Brother, unclear to me what you are talking about here?
At 65 I got through first boss and most of second in SH solo on self heals, failure was inability to kick 2nd boss, not self heals. I guess it depends on what you mean by "difficult". Haven't tried any real solo challenges at 75, though I got through the trolls without the buff (which I didn't notice) for the quests in Nan Cuendir.
Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Dec 01 2011 at 03:16 PM.
I'm baffled. Let's say your HOH captain sustains 500 DPS, not so hard with a 2nd age 2-H weapon, right? And you have the 20% revealing mark. That, without ANYTHING ELSE, is 100 HPS. That is a pretty respectable amount of healing, and you can keep it going forever. That leaves out inspire (with your herald Shield brothered or blade brothered) HOT, the rallying cries ticking away, the (minor but helpful) SfW. You made the claim that ?
First, HoH captains cannot use inspire on themselves.
Secondly, no - 100 HPS isn't that great, and isnt' going to keep you alive against something challenging that can crit you for thousands of damage, which many things I fight can and do.
And you can only use Rally Cry after soemthing dies or you get a critical. It's very situational, and not something you can rely on for self-healing.
Not accurate if I understand what you are asaying. If you trait Fellowship Brother you'll get the group inspire heal if you pick Shield Brother or Blade Brother, unclear to me what you are talking about here?
You only get a lesser version of inspire from that trait. I've used it before - it's not that impressive. You only get the full-effect if you trait Leader of Men.
I'm curious, who do you think has better in combat self heals? Are you saying that Captains are a below average class in that regard? Or just below Minis and Rks, and (maybe once fixed) Wardens, but with vastly better mitigations that the first two and heck, maybe better mitigations than Wardens until they are repaired some?
Well I'm not that familiar with RKs, but yes - Ministrels and Wardens deffinitely have better self-heals than I do as my HoH Captain.
I don't know if they are below average or not. All I know is my self-healing leaves a lot to be desired, and isnt' going to keep me alive against a lot of the things I do battle with. I'm not that impressed with it.
First, HoH captains cannot use inspire on themselves.
And you can only use Rally Cry after soemthing dies or you get a critical. It's very situational, and not something you can rely on for self-healing.
As to 1, you are simply wrong. Read up on "fellowship brother" some more.
As to 2
a) In LtC, the crits are not "situational", they are quite common. 22% crit rate, ability to battle shout every 15 seconds, fact that shadow's lament is ungated and gives you extra tries to crit on DB/PA, well, yes you can count on it. If there are multiple targets, you WILL be getting lots of crits, single target you can count on at least 1 a minute. Even in HOH my crit rate is over 15%, and in multi-target situations I get a decent amount of crits...
b) "only use", eh? Time of Need is available every 2.5 minutes, and gives you a big net heal if you have the morale cost on LI. I have the TON morale cost/cooldown on swap LI. Surprised you aren't aware/don't use it more as a healing captain, RC on demand is, well, useful when healing. It is a rare fight I'm main healing where I don't pop TON at this point.
You only get a lesser version of inspire from that trait. I've used it before - it's not that impressive. You only get the full-effect if you trait Leader of Men.
Not sure what is unclear.
Not impressive? Really? Do you mean solo or grouped? I don't know anyone who often groups/raids without it. I find it quite impressive myself.
As to what is unclear, well perhaps you understand my confusion after reading
your statements like:
Not all captains are Leader of Men and can utlize a self-Inspire buff.
Inspire only works as a self-healing tool if you are Leader of Men
As to 1, you are simply wrong. Read up on "fellowship brother" some more.
As to 2
a) In LtC, the crits are not "situational", they are quite common. 22% crit rate, ability to battle shout every 15 seconds, fact that shadow's lament is ungated and gives you extra tries to crit on DB/PA, well, yes you can count on it. If there are multiple targets, you WILL be getting lots of crits, single target you can count on at least 1 a minute. Even in HOH my crit rate is over 15%, and in multi-target situations I get a decent amount of crits...
b) "only use", eh? Time of Need is available every 2.5 minutes, and gives you a big net heal if you have the morale cost on LI. I have the TON morale cost/cooldown on swap LI. Surprised you aren't aware/don't use it more as a healing captain, RC on demand is, well, useful when healing. It is a rare fight I'm main healing where I don't pop TON at this point.
/sigh
OK let me try this again. Yes, you can get a group-wide Inspire by traiting "Fellowship Brother" BUT it is a lesser version of the skill. It is a watered down version and not as good.
And yes, critical hits are situational. Even if you were able to get your critical hit chance up to the cap of 25% - it isnt' a reliable form of self-healing if you are up against something nailing you for thousands of damage. A 1/4 chance of being able to heal yourself isn't going to cut it. It's situational on when it can be relied on.
Time of need is good for emergencies. It's not really a Self-Healing tool in my mind. It's more of an oh #### button. Again - not a reliable form of self-healing.
Like I said, come on over to Nimrodel and look me up. I will put your Self-Healing to the test, and if you prove me wrong I will be happy to say you have proved me wrong
Not impressive? Really? Do you mean solo or grouped? I don't know anyone who often groups/raids without it. I find it quite impressive myself.
As to what is unclear, well perhaps you understand my confusion after reading
your statements like:
Well like I said, you seem easier impressed than I.
It's a fairly weak heal and isnt' goign to keep someone alive against any real damage.
And I have already clarfied the confusion for you. When I said only Leader of Men captains can use Inspire on themselves, I meant the full version of Inspire, not the gimped version that trait gives you. I don't know why you are so confused on that.
OK let me try this again. Yes, you can get a group-wide Inspire by traiting "Fellowship Brother" BUT it is a lesser version of the skill. It is a watered down version and not as good.
And yes, critical hits are situational. Even if you were able to get your critical hit chance up to the cap of 25% - it isnt' a reliable form of self-healing if you are up against something nailing you for thousands of damage. A 1/4 chance of being able to heal yourself isn't going to cut it. It's situational on when it can be relied on.
Time of need is good for emergencies. It's not really a Self-Healing tool in my mind. It's more of an oh #### button. Again - not a reliable form of self-healing.
Like I said, come on over to Nimrodel and look me up. I will put your Self-Healing to the test, and if you prove me wrong I will be happy to say you have proved me wrong
Fellowship brother is IMO our premier legendary at this point, do you really not use it much?
TON is reliable for all purposes. The 2.5 minute cooldown has changed it from panic to more routine, perhaps you never adjusted your opinion of it post ROI though.
As to your transfer to Nimrodel "offer", well, no thanks. I'm clearly not worthy.
Fellowship brother is IMO our premier legendary at this point, do you really not use it much?
TON is reliable for all purposes. The 2.5 minute cooldown has changed it from panic to more routine, perhaps you never adjusted your opinion of it post ROI though.
As to your transfer to Nimrodel "offer", well, no thanks. I'm clearly not worthy.
lol, you are plenty worthy. I would like to see this awesome self-healing of your's in action. Seriously, I would.
2.5 minute CD isnt' that impressive for a heal. It's rather long by my standards.
And no, I'm not all that impressed with the Fellowship Brother trait. It's alright, but deffinitely not something I feel I must have equipped all the time. I am glad you like it so much though. Reasonable men can disagree afterall.
l I would like to see this awesome self-healing of your's in action. Seriously, I would.
And no, I'm not all that impressed with the Fellowship Brother trait. It's alright, but deffinitely not something I feel I must have equipped all the time. I am glad you like it so much though Reasonable men can disagree afterall.
Guess I'm done here, don't feel like I'm learning more. Best of luck.
Guess I'm done here, don't feel like I'm learning more. Best of luck.
Well I didn't mean to run you off.
It's just we were having a circular debate and the only real way to solve it seemed to just have you show me how a Captain's self-healing negates the need to have any Off-Tanks or CC, as neither one of us was doing a good job of convincing the other they were right. I didn't make the comment out of any hostility, but out of pure curiosity I promise ^^
It's just we were having a circular debate and the only real way to solve it seemed to just have you show me how a Captain's self-healing negates the need to have any Off-Tanks or CC, as neither one of us was doing a good job of convincing the other they were right. I didn't make the comment out of any hostility, but out of pure curiosity I promise ^^
Best of luck to you also.
No offense taken. Had a look at your Capt out of curiosity, clearly you build very differently from me. One thing to keep in mind in self healing is the role of mitigations (less damage taken == more effective power from heals). Anyway, enjoy...
Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Dec 01 2011 at 04:21 PM.
Reason: typos
and that is where you're wrong
a captain can do just fine tackling challenging content when using a standard instead
It depends on the content.
There are things a Captain using a Herald or Archer can do that a captain using a banner could not.
Banners are good for group situations where you want to increase your own character's stats while at the same time maintaining the group buff on everyone. But anytime you are outnumbered against mutliple strong opponents you will be better served by using your herald, as he/she can CC one of the monsters and take a huge amount of heat off of you. If you were using a banner you would most likely die.
If you would like me to prove this to you come on over to Nimrodel and I will show you by killing a group of monsters with my herald that you will not be able to with your banner.
What is this why are we arguing about fellowship brother and self heal?. I'm asking for a war hounds which is whether you like herald or not is a something new for captain. Dont you want something new for captain, you champion got new bubble and minis got a new awesome dps skill.
All i'm asking is for a new type of pet for captain, why are we arguing about wanting it or not. It something new, you like it use it and you dont like dont use it. Also the new fellowship brother is awesome, it not going to leave my trait slot ever again. If you played captain in any significant degree, the correct decision is to get more new feature added to captain.
Like i said right now i'm will settle for a new look for captain herald. it already stale and the captain herald look predates the moria expansion. I dont see LM complaining about getting new limfran pet even thought it not a useful pet. It something new if you a captain just a agree with me.
Banners are good for group situations where you want to increase your own character's stats while at the same time maintaining the group buff on everyone. But anytime you are outnumbered against mutliple strong opponents you will be better served by using your herald, as he/she can CC one of the monsters and take a huge amount of heat off of you. If you were using a banner you would most likely die.
with a standard i have 1k additional morale - my herald has more, granted - but i have much better mitigation and b/p/e than my herald has.. not to mention that my healing from revealing mark is also increased by equipping a standard
all in all survivability will roughly stay the same in any situation
If you would like me to prove this to you come on over to Nimrodel and I will show you by killing a group of monsters with my herald that you will not be able to with your banner.
what's it with you and asking people to do a server transfer just to prove a point Oo
(if you pay both ways for me i'll do it :P)
with a standard i have 1k additional morale - my herald has more, granted - but i have much better mitigation and b/p/e than my herald has.. not to mention that my healing from revealing mark is also increased by equipping a standard
all in all survivability will roughly stay the same in any situation
what's it with you and asking people to do a server transfer just to prove a point Oo
(if you pay both ways for me i'll do it :P)
Not so. Herald offers you far more surviviality in many situations than ever your banner could. Against a single target you may have a valid argument, but against multiple targets, not a chance.
And I ask people to come over to my server because i'm lazy and get tired of repeating myself. Much easier just to show them instead.
What is this why are we arguing about fellowship brother and self heal?. I'm asking for a war hounds which is whether you like herald or not is a something new for captain. Dont you want something new for captain, you champion got new bubble and minis got a new awesome dps skill.
All i'm asking is for a new type of pet for captain, why are we arguing about wanting it or not. It something new, you like it use it and you dont like dont use it. Also the new fellowship brother is awesome, it not going to leave my trait slot ever again. If you played captain in any significant degree, the correct decision is to get more new feature added to captain.
Like i said right now i'm will settle for a new look for captain herald. it already stale and the captain herald look predates the moria expansion. I dont see LM complaining about getting new limfran pet even thought it not a useful pet. It something new if you a captain just a agree with me.
Well I'm not sure if this was aimed at me or not, but since I was one of the ones arguing about the Fellowship Brother trait I'm going to assume it was.
So let me defend myself.
First, I did agree with you. If you go back and reread my very first post I said I would love to see some new looks and types added to the herald. I was never arguing against this.
Yes, I do want something new - and would love to get a new and stronger type of Herald. A War Hound would be awesome as well, as would an upgrade on the oath keeper for the Lead the Charge Captains, which I feel are long over-due.
My post began by defending the value of heralds, as I think many Captains underestimate their usefulness and that's where the argument began, it had nothing to do with me not wanting new goodies for my pet.
And the Fellowship Brother trait may be awesome for you, but for me it just didn't offer me much. Perhaps if the trait took into account my legacies for the group-wide buff I may would use it, but the gimped inspire it gave out was weak and just caused unnessasary aggro issues for me with very little benefit. The Strength of Will increase it gave everyone was rather pathetic. I just prefer traiting Shield of Dunedain, which is far more effective at keeping my tank alive (which is my highest priority) than the Fellowship trait was, and I just can't part with my In Defense of Middle Earth legendary. I love it too much. +75 to all stats? Yes please ^^
I'm glad it works well for you, but for me - just didn't help me accomplish what I'm aiming to accomplish with my Captain.
"I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
"I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me
thanks but you don't have to show me .. you see i have a captain myself and was able to try it
so i know that this isn't the case
Trust me it is the case.
A Captain using his herald will be able to take groups of monsters a Captain using a banner will not be able to. Strategic use of CC can make a world of difference in some situations.
Sapien, this is a forum where people are free to express their views and opinions. If you don't like mine, simply put me on your ignore list or simply don't read my posts, because you aren't my boss and i'm deffinitly not going to stop just because you ask me to
Why should we? Based on your postings, you appear to me at this point to have a very narrow perspective on Captaining, locked into a HOH+Shield Brother == One True Way To Captain. Maybe that impression isn't correct, but it is how you come across. Trust me, there are now there are plenty of viable setups to run with. Not that you have any particular reason to trust me either, mind you, but really, you should. And come to Meneldor and I'll show you how to Captain some -- just kidding, but, um, that is how you come across.
As to content, just curious what content you are referring to. I ran GS solo last night (yes, not a huge challenge at 75, but the pull before Igash with 5 guys isn't totally trivial solo without "real" CC) in LtC. Used my archer, but not for off tanking, just for the DPS and LtC reflection of Blade Brother inspire. Did fine. Rolled through Sword Halls and Stoneheight solo also (Stoneheight is HIGHLY rewarding to solo at this point, 10 tier 4 relics, 200k IXP pills in 25 minutes or solo, Sword Halls is pretty easy but not worth it). Doesn't seem to be any huge normal challenges in game right now, Draigoth T2 CM is not such once you know the drill. OD T2 CM is still quite a bit harder despite being level 65...
Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Dec 04 2011 at 08:50 AM.
Rolled through Sword Halls and Stoneheight solo also (Stoneheight is HIGHLY rewarding to solo at this point, 10 tier 4 relics, 200k IXP pills in 25 minutes or solo, Sword Halls is pretty easy but not worth it).
Hmm... may have to give Stoneheight a shot.
Any particular traiting/gearing that you used, or should almost anyone be able to get through it?
Also, did you try StH T1 or T2?
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
OD T2 CM is still quite a bit harder despite being level 65...
That means they actually designed it right =)
Here's to hoping OD becomes as beloved as the Rift.
no i won't trust you Oo
how often do i have to tell you: i did try it myself and found it to make hardly any difference
now let it go
Fine. Then dont' trust me, but you are still wrong - as using my Herald does allow me to take on groups of enemies I otherwise couldn't. It's just a fact. It does. Like I said, my invitation to come over to my server and let me show you first hand is always there if ever you want to see.
But if you want to stick to your incorrect beliefs that is your choice
Why should we? Based on your postings, you appear to me at this point to have a very narrow perspective on Captaining, locked into a HOH+Shield Brother == One True Way To Captain. Maybe that impression isn't correct, but it is how you come across. Trust me, there are now there are plenty of viable setups to run with. Not that you have any particular reason to trust me either, mind you, but really, you should. And come to Meneldor and I'll show you how to Captain some -- just kidding, but, um, that is how you come across.
As to content, just curious what content you are referring to. I ran GS solo last night (yes, not a huge challenge at 75, but the pull before Igash with 5 guys isn't totally trivial solo without "real" CC) in LtC. Used my archer, but not for off tanking, just for the DPS and LtC reflection of Blade Brother inspire. Did fine. Rolled through Sword Halls and Stoneheight solo also (Stoneheight is HIGHLY rewarding to solo at this point, 10 tier 4 relics, 200k IXP pills in 25 minutes or solo, Sword Halls is pretty easy but not worth it). Doesn't seem to be any huge normal challenges in game right now, Draigoth T2 CM is not such once you know the drill. OD T2 CM is still quite a bit harder despite being level 65...
You should trust me because I've tested it and confirmed it, and welcome the chance to show either of you.
I never said playing Captain the way I do as a Hands of Healing Captain was the "one true way to Captain". I never said anything close to that - and having to put words into some else's mouth is the first sign they are losing the debate. Nor did I ever say there weren't other viable ways to play Captain. What I actually did say was Sheild Brother is your best healing tool as a HoH Captain - and that's simply a fact.
And I'll be happy to come to Meneldor and show you what i'm talking about. What is your Captain's name?
And if you want specefics there are many pulls in Tier3 skirmishes for example that would be very difficult without the use of my Herald. Having him there as a form of CC helps a lot, and I woudn't be able to get through some of them without it.
But...as you noted, I am speaking from a HoH Captain's perspective, so if you play as a different style of Captain you should probably just avoid arguing with me because I'd imagine different styles of Captains have their own array of strengths and weaknsess. I speak only as a HoH Captain - and I am very very confident in my stance that as a HoH Captain strategic use of the Herald can and will improve what you are capable of, and I'm happy to prove it to you anytime you wish.
Now if other styles of Captains have different experiences and find no use for their herald, then fine... I'm willing to accept that in the interests of good-will, as I only play as a HoH Captain - so perhaps LtC Captains have less need for extra CC against large pulls. I wouldn't know since I don't play as them - so perhaps this is partly my fault for not expressly limiting the scope of this discussion to HoH onlyr. I try to, but sometimes I forget. I am only human afterall.
BUT just let me say I do go out of my way on posts to stress I am only speaking from a HoH Captain perspective, and that my comments should be ignored if you play another style of Captain (another reason I think you accusing me of pretending my way is the only way of playing was such a unfair accusation). I do this frequently so as to avoid situations like this. If you play a Lead the Charge Captain then simply ignore my comments and advice as they do not pertain to you, and that is most likely why a lot of them such as my Shield Brother comments make no sense to you
And I'll be happy to come to Meneldor and show you what i'm talking about. What is your Captain's name?
Offer declined, "sensei".
Originally Posted by Jeremi
And if you want specefics there are many pulls in Tier3 skirmishes for example that would be very difficult without the use of my Herald. Having him there as a form of CC helps a lot, and I woudn't be able to get through some of them without it.
But...as you noted, I am speaking from a HoH Captain's perspective, so if you play as a different style of Captain you should probably just avoid arguing with me because I'd imagine different styles of Captains have their own array of strengths and weaknsess. I speak only as a HoH Captain - and I am very very confident in my stance that as a HoH Captain strategic use of the Herald can and will improve what you are capable of, and I'm happy to prove it to you anytime you wish.
Do you really run lots of T3 skirmishes? Really? Most consider those a waste of time except as artificial challenges, as the payoff for time spent is awful compared to T1. Do you mean group ones (which nobody seems to run?), in which case why HOH since the self healing is "awful" of Captains per you.
You still seem to think there is a HoH Captain. I think there is a "Captain", who should trait as needed for each instance. For me, that defaults to LtC with Blade brother for current content, such as Draigoth, T1 skirms (raid to normal), school/lib (regardless of my role), 6 mans like Thadur when not main healing 6 mans, etc. It shifts to LoM if I'm tanking (which I've only done a few times post ROI. And it shifts to HoH if I'm main healing a 6 man. In the coming content while exploring it I'll probably chose HoH.
Do you really run lots of T3 skirmishes? Really? Most consider those a waste of time except as artificial challenges, as the payoff for time spent is awful compared to T1. Do you mean group ones (which nobody seems to run?), in which case why HOH since the self healing is "awful" of Captains per you.
You still seem to think there is a HoH Captain. I think there is a "Captain", who should trait as needed for each instance. For me, that defaults to LtC with Blade brother for current content, such as Draigoth, T1 skirms (raid to normal), school/lib (regardless of my role), 6 mans like Thadur when not main healing 6 mans, etc. It shifts to LoM if I'm tanking (which I've only done a few times post ROI. And it shifts to HoH if I'm main healing a 6 man. In the coming content while exploring it I'll probably chose HoH.
Yep, I only run tier 3 skirmishes. Lots of my friends do as well, so better reword that "noone" comment, as it's innaccurate. Once you master them they aren't that difficult and you get more marks. Plus, I enjoy the challenge - and it's great training.
And if you aren't willing to let me prove it to you on your server or take my word for it, well then I guess this argument is dead. So might as well end it. We don't agree.
And nope, I again disagree with you. I don't believe there is just 1 captain, and believe the traits, gear, and legacies you choose create a very distinct and focused character who will excel in certain situations other captains will not.
Yep, I only run tier 3 skirmishes. Lots of my friends do as well, so better reword that "noone" comment, as it's innaccurate. Once you master them they aren't that difficult and you get more marks. Plus, I enjoy the challenge - and it's great training.
I run skirmishes for SM/hour largely (which is true for most I'm aware of outside of you), not the excitement, as I think they are sort of boring. But just went and ran my usuals (rift, dannenglor) at T3 to see what I've been missing. Used my herbalist to be conservative and a banner, no herald. Went swimmingly traited LtC and using Blade Bro (for reflection mostly). No deaths, no cooldowns needed, but certainly rather harder than T1. Not as hard as soloing GS, IMHO. Don't plan on doing it regularly as the 25% extras SMs + a few in the chest don't make it worthwhile as the mobs with twice the hitpoints take over twice the time to kill. Not sure what it is great training for, as the things I consider hard, like OD T2, would seem to require different skillsets.
I run skirmishes for SM/hour largely (which is true for most I'm aware of outside of you), not the excitement, as I think they are sort of boring. But just went and ran my usuals (rift, dannenglor) at T3 to see what I've been missing. Used my herbalist to be conservative and a banner, no herald. Went swimmingly traited LtC and using Blade Bro (for reflection mostly). No deaths, no cooldowns needed, but certainly rather harder than T1. Not as hard as soloing GS, IMHO. Don't plan on doing it regularly as the 25% extras SMs + a few in the chest don't make it worthwhile as the mobs with twice the hitpoints take over twice the time to kill. Not sure what it is great training for, as the things I consider hard, like OD T2, would seem to require different skillsets.
You get more than just an extra 25%. The lutinenets and encounters have a higher chance to drop marks as well. But as I said, you are a different style of captain, so perhaps extra CC isn't as benefical as it is for a Hands of Healing Captain. Perhaps you should try those Tier3 again as a HoH captain, then maybe you will understand more of what I say. Or maybe you are just that awesome and don't need cc...I don't know.
I have spoken with other LtC captains who do tier 3s with the aid of a herbalist, so I deffinitely know it's a winning strat - but again, like I said, this is comparing apples to oranges. Go do a tier3 as a HoH Captain, then we can actually have a valid debate where we are both discussing the same thing. I've already said I'm willing to accept a herald may not be that beneficial to a LtC Captain, so I don't know what more you want out of me. Besides, I would love to meet another HoH Captain who does tier3 content, as I would love someone to be able to compare notes with ^^
I came here for a thread about puppies, but it devolved into a dogfight.
I'm not dogfighting
I'm simply defending the value of a herald, something I would think you'd appreciate given you are trying to talk turbine into giving us more perks with them ^^
You get more than just an extra 25%. The lutinenets and encounters have a higher chance to drop marks as well. But as I said, you are a different style of captain, so perhaps extra CC isn't as benefical as it is for a Hands of Healing Captain.
Again with the "Hands of Healing Captain" thing. I've run HoH post ROI where it is appropriate. I'm not a LtC Captain, a LoM Captain, or a HoH Captain, just a "Captain". Solo skirmishes,3 man content, and easier raids (T1 skirm 12 mans, Draigoth T2 CM) strike me as generally best suited to LtC skills, just as main healing 6 mans or presumably the upcoming harder content strikes me as best suited to HoH line and main tanking 6 mans seems best with LoM. Can't picture why HoH (or a low might build such as you appear to run) would be considered best suited for solo skirmishes, but whatever floats your boat.
so I don't know what more you want out of me.
Nothing at this point, happy to be done with this "discussion".
Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Dec 05 2011 at 09:29 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jeremi
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