Thread: Feedback: Instance Finder

So I haven't actually gone into an instance, but I did open it up to see how the options work. Here's my feedback:

1. I'm very excited about this for doing skirmishes. I don't know if it actually checks my eligibility for skirmishes, but if it does, then I'm thrilled.

2. I play a captain, so it's a little weird for instances. Personally, I'm happy to do 3 or 6 man instances, but I'm only happy to be the main healer on 3-man instances. So I can't tell if I should claim that I can be a healer and then just say "never mind" if it puts me in a 6-man as the healer or if I should say I can only do support and then volunteer to heal if people want if I end up in a 3-man. Or maybe I should just pick only 3-man or only 6-man, but then that seems to defeat the purpose. Anyway, I'm sure I'll figure out a good strategy, but I think this issue will cause a lot of frustration when they end up with secondary healing classes slotted as healers for 6-mans or even raids. Maybe a solution would be to allow me to rate my contribution in each category instead of just giving a simple yes/no? No doubt this will be improved in the future updates they've already mentioned!

3. I'm not sure how to say what tier I'm willing to do. With a skirmish, I probably want to do tier 1, especially with a random group. But with Inn of the Fosaken, I'd want to do tier 2 for the better rewards and chance at the challenge quest. So this is a similar problem to #2 above.

4. There's a really big difference between doing Halls of Night with a random group and doing The School at Tham Mirdain with a random group. (Not to mention that there's a difference in who can reasonably be "defense" in one versus the other.) I'm concerned that since I can't specify which 3-man instances I would be willing to do, that I'll end up doing a harder one than I'm interested in and having a bad experience.


Suggestions:
-Limit 3-man classic instances to the school and library for this iteration of the tool
-Make sure people don't get placed in raid-size skirmishes if they are not able to get rewards from them
-For the future, look for ways to specify that you're able to serve a role for some types of instances, but not for others
-For the future, look for ways to let people indicate who they want to be matched up with in the future


Short version:
I think this will be great for skirmishes if it can tell when you're on cooldown for skirmish rewards. Otherwise, I think there are some issues that will lead to a pretty hefty amount of dropped groups and other failures to run instances and people will end up waiting for a future update to make much use of it.

Originally Posted by Zelxyb

-Make sure people don't get placed in raid-size skirmishes if they are not able to get rewards from them

Short version:
I think this will be great for skirmishes if it can tell when you're on cooldown for skirmish rewards. Otherwise, I think there are some issues that will lead to a pretty hefty amount of dropped groups and other failures to run instances and people will end up waiting for a future update to make much use of it.

..The finder doesnt work with raid sized content so this is a non issue at present.

I'll have more extensive feedback later.

I wonder if it would group you with someone on your ignore list? Would be a bit awkward if you can't read what they type.

Quick question for anyone who is not VIP...does the instance finder know that you don't own certain content or will it send you to a group in say, Halls of Night, and the travel window will pop up saying "Unlock Now"?

I've been trying to test whether it'll let me try to join an instance I don't have. I tried to enter a 2-man classic instance (of which there are none) and I appropriately got the error message: "You are not eligible to enter any encounters that match the currently selected configuration."

It's a little harder to test the non-free instances, because there's no way to narrow it down to include HoN and IotF (which I don't have) but not include the GA instances, which are free to everyone. The instance finder has a 10-minute timer on it so it's time-consuming to do by trial and error. I might try with a lower-level character who has less to choose from.

Originally Posted by Elinnea

It's a little harder to test the non-free instances, because there's no way to narrow it down to include HoN and IotF (which I don't have) but not include the GA instances, which are free to everyone. The instance finder has a 10-minute timer on it so it's time-consuming to do by trial and error. I might try with a lower-level character who has less to choose from.

The GA instances? I'm confused. I thought the instance finder only works for skirmishes, the new RoI instances, and scalable classic instances.

Oh, you're right. I saw the word "Instance" and forgot it was only supposed to work for scalable ones. In that case have some more testing to do.

I like the idea of this instance finder. It would be nice if it would tell me which instance/skirm I'm joining, after it assigns me one and before I click Confirm. Then if it comes up with one that I hate, I could refuse without having to join, ditch my group and leave.

I would like to point out that by offering a 1.5x currency multiplier and a +5% morale/power buff that Turbine is somewhat punishing people who group with friends and don't use the system. I know they need to have some kind of motivation for people to use the LFG tool and it's not necessarily my opinion, but rather just an observation.

Can you show some screens with new Dungeons Fangorn , Orthank somethink new =]

Originally Posted by Azerog

I wonder if it would group you with someone on your ignore list? Would be a bit awkward if you can't read what they type.

Did some testing to verify that it does infact NOT respect the IGNORE list.


Player A puts player B on IGNORE
Player A&B queue for DUO T3 skirmish
Player A&B placed in the SAME group. ^_^

Originally Posted by 0rdinary0wl

I would like to point out that by offering a 1.5x currency multiplier and a +5% morale/power buff that Turbine is somewhat punishing people who group with friends and don't use the system. I know they need to have some kind of motivation for people to use the LFG tool and it's not necessarily my opinion, but rather just an observation.

You can enter as an already grouped up 3 or 6 man and have Instance Finder send you into a random 3/6 with only your group and you will get the bonus.

The bonus is not for using instance finder to get a random group.
The bonus is for using Instance Finder to get a random instance/skirmish.


Important distinction.

Originally Posted by Crell_1

..The finder doesnt work with raid sized content so this is a non issue at present.

I'll have more extensive feedback later.

Good point. What I should have said is that it should make sure it doesn't put you in ANY instance where you won't get the rewards. I don't want to run Thadur 3 times in a row if it doesn't give me the challenge quest all 3 times. Skirmish raids are just fresh in my mind from running some this week!

Originally Posted by jwbarry

You can enter as an already grouped up 3 or 6 man and have Instance Finder send you into a random 3/6 with only your group and you will get the bonus.

The bonus is not for using instance finder to get a random group.
The bonus is for using Instance Finder to get a random instance/skirmish.


Important distinction.

Thanks for clearing that up, but it is an odd way to go about it.

Originally Posted by Crell_1

Did some testing to verify that it does infact NOT respect the IGNORE list.


Player A puts player B on IGNORE
Player A&B queue for DUO T3 skirmish
Player A&B placed in the SAME group. ^_^

In the Dev tracker it was stated that not placing players with others on their Ignore list is a feature they plan to add, but it didn't make it in for Update 5.

Thus far I have not found the finder to be terribly useful. On live, I presume things MIGHT be a little different (after the initial wave of people after the new instances) to find something like a random skirmish. However, thus far I have found myself sitting for quite a while with no matches (perhaps simply because of people not setting themselves as available). Then, after a while (maybe an hour, though I did not pay attention to the time) it put me in a 3-man group with a guardian, warden, and champion; I am not sure why it thought that combination was terribly viable.

If anything, I think it is going to come to putting together the group, THEN using the instance finder (and I believe one can filter the randomness to Isengard and somewhat limit things to the new instances).

Especially considering the current loot distribution, I would think being able to add 12-man skirmishes at least would make things a bit more useful. Skirmishes are a bit more forgiving in the blind joining method of the finder (like a guardian, warden, and champion group might actually be viable); though even then, the lack of a convenient method to switch between two skirmish soldiers somewhat hinders that.

Originally Posted by Reximus

In the Dev tracker it was stated that not placing players with others on their Ignore list is a feature they plan to add, but it didn't make it in for Update 5.

Not at the time the post was written

The fellowship finder should not queue you for 'duo' anything in classics/Isengard unless you're going to design new duo spaces.
Yes I accept the fact that I can queue for both skirmishes and non-skirmishes at the same time, but when building my group, you should not put me in a non-skirmish 3man space duo.

I never have been good at typing/writing in forums, but here goes.

I tried Instance finder tonight (not many online so waited 45min to get a group.) As a captain I ticked all 4 rolls. Now finaly got a group with me as a Tank. We had another Captain as healer and well a Guard as a DPS. But here is the bad bit, the other Cappy dropped group so we are in a position of... We cant rejoin I.F for another 10min so what are we meant to do?

I love the idea of an I.F. just needs a bit more work but hey its early days so thought id point this out. Would love to have option to rejoin I.F if someone drops group a start of Instance because im sure we are going to get people load into instance a go 'I dont like this instance' and leave.

Kreg

Could someone please post these "roles" for me and others who are not participating in the beta? Greatly appreciated.

The four roles are Defense, Healer, Support, and Damage. You can select one role or multiple roles, but it's limited by class. For example, as a Minstrel I could only select Healer and Damage.

There's a screenshot of the interface at Massively's article on update 5: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11...tros-update-5/.

Originally Posted by Elinnea

The four roles are Defense, Healer, Support, and Damage. You can select one role or multiple roles, but it's limited by class. For example, as a Minstrel I could only select Healer and Damage.

There's a screenshot of the interface at Massively's article on update 5: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11...tros-update-5/.

Thanks for the reply and the link!

Originally Posted by jwbarry

You can enter as an already grouped up 3 or 6 man and have Instance Finder send you into a random 3/6 with only your group and you will get the bonus.

The bonus is not for using instance finder to get a random group.
The bonus is for using Instance Finder to get a random instance/skirmish.


Important distinction.

Thanks for the clarification on this. If I were to group with 5 friends and check the right boxes and land in a GB Thadur instance, complete it and then try and use instance finder again is there the possibility we will find ourselves back in Thadur again?

While I appreciate the effort and desire of the Dev team to try and address the age old issue of Looking For Fellowship my prediction is that this will not be used. Why, because the issue with LFF dealt with specifics and we have a tool the works on the basis of randomness, and therefore doesn't address the issue.

90% of all LFF in glff or the local LFF channels is in the following format: x/x for xxx, need xx. I.E., very specific request for a particular class and a particular instance.

10% of all LFF in glff or the local LFF channels is in the following format: xx looking for group. I.E., random person looking for a random group to do whatever.

Why would you then develop a tool which accommodates the 10% and leaves out the 90%?

Here is my prediction: People are going to use the tool just because it is shiny and new. They'll cue up for an instance and get thrown into, say, Annuminas HV (the hardest of the 3 Annuminas runs to get challenge on) with random people they've never run with before. As there isn't a dedicated leader, people are just going to haphazardly run through the instance, wipe, and then disband.

• Folks that raid alot are going to say "this tool sucks, i got stuck with a bunch of noobs and we wiped after the 2nd pull" and never use the tool again.
• People that don't raid are going to say "This tool sucks, i got stuck in an instance I didn't know very well and the group was just trying to blast through it to get their loot and be done, without explaining how this works." and never use the tool again.
• People that like the tool are never going to be able to get a group together because the vast majority of the community is still using GLFF and LFF (for reasons stated above) and say "This tool sucks, i can get in a group faster with GLFF" and never use it again.

I really, really want something like this to work, but until we can specifically sign up for specific instances and pick specific people and specific classes then its just not going to work.

What would have been so hard with a window that lets you select your role and instances you'd be willing to run. Folks that form raids can then peruse the list, find a hunter, guard, capt, LM and burg that want to do the same thing as him and create the instance and go?

Here, here!

Originally Posted by site400

What would have been so hard with a window that lets you select your roll and instances you'd be willing to run. Folks that form raids can then peruse the list, find a hunter, guard, capt, LM and burg that want to do the same thing as him and create the instance and go?

But I would modify that to be "...global window that lets you select your roll(s)..."

The computer could also dispense with the manual list picking.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

I think the issue here is that there are different goals in mind than just making a grouping tool similar to DDO. We know the devs have been concerned over the fact that so much of the grouping player base restricts themselves to running the same few instances over and over. They've talked on a number of occasions about trying to implement plans that would lead players to play more of the instances. The barter currency locks from the In Their Absence cluster was an attempt at that, and to a great extent I think the real goal of this tool is the same.

Of course, the ultimate answer to the issue is to revamp instances that are generally disliked to play better and give better rewards. That, more than anything else, will keep them in the mix.

I like the concept of this tool, the potential to find groups quickly and to get a chance to play more instances than just the standard fare. I'm not all that concerned about always running the most efficient instance. I don't have a sense of being "on the clock" where if I don't make the maximum number of skirmish marks in an hour I have somehow failed. I just want to play the game and have fun. That means, however, that I don't want to be constantly thrown into disorganized groups that wipe all the time. I want to be challenged, but I still want to win.

Still, I feel like the key component to a successful group, especially as you get into the more difficult 6-mans and eventually to raids, is good leadership. I think the version we have in U5 is good for members looking for a group, but there needs to be a separate version that is for leaders creating a group. That is what makes the DDO model so effective. So...

My suggestions for future implementation in U6 would be as follows:
1. Give priority to kin-mates and friends when pairing.
2. Let players mark themselves as "Leader" or "Member" and pair groups so that groups always have one leader. It would be best if players could actually specify on the list of instances which ones they are comfortable leading.
3. If a player selects "Leader" give them additional options to select specific classes for spots in the fellowship or raid.

Example:
Slot 1 - "Leader" (who selected their own roll at the top of the window)
Slot 2 - Tank (these would be icons like the shield, etc. click on it to change it to something else)
Slot 3 - Healer >> Minstrel (have an arrow button beside the image that opens out with symbols for the classes that can fill that roll, allowing you to highlight one or more)
Slot 4 - DPS >> Rune Keeper
Slot 5 - DPS >> Hunter
Slot 6 - Support

So not all slots would require a distinct class choice, but the option would be open to the leader if they choose.

So in this way, you still have the ability for highly random but also highly-specific configurations.

To the issue with someone dropping right away, I believe you can still fill that spot, and if they can get ignore filtering added it can solve problematic players quite easily. Until that happens, I think you can see people simply griefing or ones that choose for themselves (and not the group) that the random instance is not a desired one and they would rather wait the 10 minutes to try getting another.

To the DDO comments, we do have an open fellowship system available, where you can set paramaters and people fitting those paramaters can simply join. We also have LFF flag and player notes (which are searchable). People simply tend not to use any of them.

As mentioned, I think this is a method of getting people around to try new instances. Though, I think the random join side of things is going to be too random, while it still may be useful to preform a group and join with that. I would somewhat expect, at least at first, seeing groups forming for the new 3-man instances, running a random one (of the 3), then maybe another random to see if it will give you one of the remaining 2 (not sure if you can get the same one again, if you get the same one you can then leave and pick one you have not run without the bonus).

I use GLFF to do specific instances with more or less specific classes. As this Instance Finder does not allow any of that I will not really use it much.

I posted a bunch of stuff in the Patch Notes thread that is of interest to people posting here:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...arer-Only-(B1)

The short short short version:
We are working on the "specific instance" version of Instance Finder for U6. In U5, we only have the "Random Instance" half of the tool.

I'm working on a Dev Diary to answer many of your questions.

Originally Posted by ransroth

I posted a bunch of stuff in the Patch Notes thread that is of interest to people posting here:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...arer-Only-(B1)

The short short short version:
We are working on the "specific instance" version of Instance Finder for U6. In U5, we only have the "Random Instance" half of the tool.

I'm working on a Dev Diary to answer many of your questions.

Good luck to you and I hope it's done right. Too many things have been added to LOTRO over the years just to fall to the wayside and never touched again.

Things will probably change with Update5 (I hope, truly hope, so), but at the moment most LF requests in my server are for specific 12-men content. Such a tool, right now, would be useless. I read you're going to update it after, but I've seen many mmog tool start this way, getting an awful rep and then not getting used anymore, even after they're fixed, just because they remember them with the classic "no one is using them, so why should I?"

Is there really such an immediate need, are players siegeing your dev offices, that you have to rush it so early and so lacking?

I was excited to see that Update 5 would include an instance finder. I don't like spamming LFF to build a fellowship, and I also don't like having to read through all the OT chatter in GLFF to catch an actual LFF message when it pops up. So I downloaded the Bullroarer client just to take a look at this feature.

My first impression was that Instance Finder wouldn't work for me: I run instances for particular goals, like gear from Great Barrows, and skirmishes for leveling up and marks. With the currency changes, I suppose it doesn't matter what instance (or skirmish) I run since there aren't any instance-specific marks anymore. Given that fact, I'll probably use it sometimes, especially when I need marks and medallions for hitting a level threshold for gear.

I wasn't one of the people that rebelled against marks instead of drops for instance rewards. The idea of playing the same instance two or three dozen times to complete my gear set isn't appealing. However, I'm having mixed feeling about getting instance-specific gear for running any content, and I'm also a little confused about the value of regular skirmish gear versus sets. It's hard to gauge the value of Instance Finder without considering the currency changes.

However, but I'll definitely be happier when I can choose particular skirmishes and instances in Update 6. I will still run particular instances to complete deeds (regular and skirmish) especially on alts who I'm only running through epic and trait-rewarding quests.

--

FYI: I saw a response by a dev when I wasn't logged into the forums. When I logged in, I could no longer see that reply and another page's worth as well. Checked my options and don't see any reason they'd appear only when I'm logged out.

Originally Posted by ransroth

I'm working on a Dev Diary to answer many of your questions.

Can't wait to read it! I am wondering in particular if Instance Finder can do anything smart around running dailies, either preferentially choosing dailies I still need to do or providing a "Dailies only" option.

For the latter, I could see myself not bothering with the Instance Join panel for dailies. I'd set to "Dailies Only", 1 to 6, and just keep spinning the wheel until I either exhaust my available dailies or myself.

Originally Posted by banhorn

Can't wait to read it! I am wondering in particular if Instance Finder can do anything smart around running dailies, either preferentially choosing dailies I still need to do or providing a "Dailies only" option.

For the latter, I could see myself not bothering with the Instance Join panel for dailies. I'd set to "Dailies Only", 1 to 6, and just keep spinning the wheel until I either exhaust my available dailies or myself.

The real question is - Are they still dailies?

Ran Library/School last night in a group of 3. Once we finished the instance, when we re-joined the quests were granted again, including the challenge & standard quest. Not sure if this is the case for other instances as we only ran those two, but it would explain why seals were not granted in Lib/School and would make sense with a random instance finder.

Originally Posted by asearchforreason

The GA instances? I'm confused. I thought the instance finder only works for skirmishes, the new RoI instances, and scalable classic instances.

That's unfortunate, because instances like GA are where I need help putting together fellowships the most, and particularly because of the complications to fellowships with GA having 3 and 6 man instances.

I wouldn't release it like that and postpone it to Update6, people will hate it.
It's mostly casual players that might use it because they depend on pugging, and I doubt that they will be happy to be forced into instances they don't like/know/can manage.
Somebody who does, say, one or two skirmishes after work certainly won't do icy crevasse and trouble in tuckborough. Ten minutes wait after dropping out is not really a penalty. Personally I'd probably stay in the group, but it would spoil my evening.
You can't force people to PLAY something, this will never work.

One Tool to rule them all, One Tool to find them,
One Tool to bring them all and in the Skirmish bind them
In the Land of Forochel where the rep costs fly

Suggestion: Istance Finder should go into the main menu and replace the little "system" button. Not many people really use that as long as we can just press Escape to open it. And i'm suggesting that because the first thing i readed in bullroarer were 20 different persons asking "where's the finder tool?" when they though it was not gonna be hidden.

This "addition" can't work in it's current state when you want to run T2 Hardmode instances. (No one runs T1 on my server).

Unless the change did inherit that you get additional T2 HM rewards for running "random T1".
In that case the very basic Heal/Tank/DPS/Support does work.

If i don't need to kite the bodies in the MAZE i don't need a Captain / Warden / Guard to kite them. Which means having a red/yellow Champ as "Tank" and a Captain as "Heal" might work.


But i don't see how this tool in it's current state ever could match a working groupsetup for T2 HM instances.

I was surprised to see that the instance finder only works up to 6 person content.

It cannot be that hard to design it to work for 12/24 person content.

Originally Posted by banhorn

That's unfortunate, because instances like GA are where I need help putting together fellowships the most, and particularly because of the complications to fellowships with GA having 3 and 6 man instances.

I agree that the unscaled classic instances (GA, CD, Uru, Moria) would benefit a lot from a "Group" finding tool. Perhaps those non-scalable instances will be added in a future update, we will have to wait for the Dev Diary to answer all those questions.
However note that this tool has been named "Instance Finder". It doesn't pretend to find a group for you, but will find any kind of instance for you that you didn't really want to run.

Originally Posted by Lyzau

I agree that the unscaled classic instances (GA, CD, Uru, Moria) would benefit a lot from a "Group" finding tool. Perhaps those non-scalable instances will be added in a future update, we will have to wait for the Dev Diary to answer all those questions.
However note that this tool has been named "Instance Finder". It doesn't pretend to find a group for you, but will find any kind of instance for you that you didn't really want to run.

In its current state, I would believe that the instance finder would be HORRIBLE for instances like GA, CD, etc. You could easily queue up for one of those and sit there the entire day with no hits and with no indication that you happen to be the only one or one of two people queued for that instance or set of instances. Until it finds a match, you have no indication that anyone other than you is even using the tool at all. If you log on a live server and take a look at all of the people currently utilizing the LFF flag and open fellowship tool, I think that will give you a fairly good indicator of how many people are in the random group queue with you.

We already have an instance finder tool. It's called a Kinship.

Spectacular device, Kinships... We can set our own loot rules. We can tailor our class make-ups to help us best defeat the content. We can excercise quality control. We can even choose which instances we want to run and preset the time when want to run them.

Why can't we get this device updated instead?