Thread: From The Zero

Hey Freeps/Creeps

I haven't bothered making a post here before. I usually just read the new threads as they pop up and get the odd laugh off of what some of the Freeps/Creeps have to say. So, what the heck, I'll quickly drop (in as short a form as I can) how I feel about the current issue at hand in the Moors.

1. Feeling of Ainur
- I HATE YOU ALL! haha. No, I think you are doing what you do best. Killing Croobs/Creeps. Period. Sure, it makes me fly off the handle behind my computer screen, bash my face into the table and shout profanitys over and over but hey, IT'S PVP for goodness sakes. IMO, you are in with the NPCs too much and you spawn like friggen Cockroaches. Today, ~CHAOS~ sees TWO (Yes, 1 and 2) Freeps in LC (Right on! Lets take it! Oh wait...). Next thing we know (In less then 2 mins) you have multiplied into 15+.. We're like.. WHAT IN THE HOLY F***. See, those are the times I laugh and cry lol. Anyway, Love you, Hate you and I assume the feeling is mutual.

2. P2W Bulls***
- Ok, really? REALLY?! We ALL P2W someway, somehow. Be it LARGE (Such as my Revenge hehe) or small (a trait/stat boost) we ALL do it.. Let just put the term away in an upstairs closet and forget someone ever put those 3 characters together. P.s. Yes, RKs and Wards are P2W no matter how you put it! So, take them out of the moors, then I shall remake my BA! haha
P.p.s Yes, I ALSO have an RK (Oasis 65) and Ward (Firecam 55). So, I understand.

3. Those Burg Exploits (Grrr)
- Yes, I screamed, cried, and yes... slept in my closet... fearing a Burg would gank me in my sleep. It is over, done with. Yes, there are exploits on the Creepside too. Who cares. It was fun (For Burgs) while it lasted haha.

4. BAs are OP!
- PISH POSH! RKs are too. I will still PEW PEW you when I see you!


Hmm, what else.. OH! When ever you guys can get me a message Creepside let me know if you wanta 1vs1. All us in ~CHAOS~ love 1 on 1 and would like to see more of it. (Yes, that is targeted at you Atador haha! I want YOU!) Of course, in saying that.. I'm sick of all the raid battles.. Each.. And.. Every.. Night! Lets get some nice 3 on 3 or 4 on 4 going.. That would be a hoot. Well, that is it for my ramblings. I Love/Hate/Respect you all and look forward to piercing your flesh with my REVENGE!

See ya in game!
Zero

Zero you just put everything i have thought about pvmp into words. Well spoken sir! I really like what you said here: "I Love/Hate/Respect you all", that's an excellent way of putting it. hmmm....better open my lotro window, my burrow might run out soon.

+Rep zero. The moors must keep chugging along.

Originally Posted by Maxterz

2. P2W Bulls***
- Ok, really? REALLY?! We ALL P2W someway, somehow. Be it LARGE (Such as my Revenge hehe) or small (a trait/stat boost) we ALL do it.. Let just put the term away in an upstairs closet and forget someone ever put those 3 characters together. P.s. Yes, RKs and Wards are P2W no matter how you put it! So, take them out of the moors, then I shall remake my BA! haha
P.p.s Yes, I ALSO have an RK (Oasis 65) and Ward (Firecam 55). So, I understand.

Just wanted to address this point and provide a different perspective. To me, the acronym "P2W" or Pay-to-Win is for the most part reserved for cases where, without a substantial monetary or TP equivalent investment, said player would not be remotely as successful in their moors encounters(when invoked this generally contrasts pre-ROI performance with post-ROI performance). If the person wins anyways, they aren't paying to win, they're just paying. If Lavsnack came back and purchased all his R10+ stuff nobody in their right mind would cry foul, he has proven time and time again he's legit.

Different people mean it for different reasons, of course. For me, my dislike for the ability to purchase skills/traits stems from two central issues:

1) The players who played and ranked for a long time have relatively little to show for it. Believe it or not, in beta discussions on the prospect of a MP store, it was not freeps concerned about their chances who formed the biggest outcry, it was the creeps who had been fighting in the trenches to earn that advantage above and beyond the others out there. It can hardly be said Field Promotion and skins serves the same distinction as high ranked skills used to. And those coveted high rank abilities could in turn be balanced to make them impact a battlefield significantly. Which leads me to my second reason.

2) Balance. What should the developers assume for creeps? Should they balance it so that those who don't have their purchased skills are equivalent to freeps in... quest gear? instance gear? pvp/raid gear? Or creeps who purchased their skills, where should they stack up? If it takes no effort to buy skills and it does take effort to get raid gear, which will be especially evident when the cap rises again and creeps have to do literally nothing and freeps have to re-gear every slot, you'd have to assume the top end needs to favor freeps. But the problem lies in the fact that there's no longer the metric of time investment to moderate the amount of high ranks participating, so any balance at this point risks making off the shelf creeps overpowered, or fully decked out creeps ineffective. Balance has always been a massive issue for PvMP, and purchasing a huge segment of what makes a character just throws an extremely volatile variable into the mix.

Perhaps, if there was any indication whatsoever that the money doubtless gained in hoards from the PvP sales, was actually going to be majorly reinvested in PvP improvements, including but not limited to a new map, there would be less frustration with it. However there's no such indication, most of the fixes right now are bug fixes, and many of the updates were quality of living changes that have been identified for years. It was extremely telling when not a single developer or community manager responded to the outcry in the beta thread on the MP Store, their hands are clearly tied by marketing and they seemed unwilling to take in feedback(such as allow skills to be purchased, but a certain number of ranks up only), and that's never good for quality.

RKs and Wardens are not Pay-to-win, they came with Moria. Neither are BAs. If you buy a BA, which you have to now without VIP, nobody is going to call it P2W for being a BA. They'll call it P2W if it's R2 and resorts to VT/Revenge to get kills. Either way it doesn't really matter, the only thing I've ever scoffed at is gloating by those who've bought skills, as long as they just buy them, acknowledge it's a shortcut and play the game, I could care less. It's when folks toot their own horns for the ability to use a purchased arsenal that makes me laugh.

Good post, though. This was not so much a rebuttal of your position as a different take on the issue.

Originally Posted by Jacbo

Good post, though. This was not so much a response to you as an elaboration on how I approach the MP Store introduction and why.

Start a new thread.


Anyway Zero, good post. It is not often that there is some civility in these kind of posts. You got the right attitude out there, keep it up.

You will never 1v1 me! muhuhhahahaah! plus your a BA, and ur evade buff would kill me..... but yes, good post

Originally Posted by apb8808

Start a new thread.

Troll the TOR forums.

You're right though, it was a response to Zero and I've clarified that.

Agreed, lol its been fun daily so far.

Originally Posted by Jacbo

You're right though, it was a response to Zero and I've clarified that.

No worries Brotha! Points well taken. Few things I'm not as Keen on as yourself but MEH, it will even out in the end.

Originally Posted by koonerboy

Zero you just put everything i have thought about pvmp into words. Well spoken sir! I really like what you said here: "I Love/Hate/Respect you all", that's an excellent way of putting it. hmmm....better open my lotro window, my burrow might run out soon.

Thanks my Spider Minion!

Originally Posted by Viduo

+Rep zero. The moors must keep chugging along.

Yes, yes it must. Just, you know, turn things a bit LESS blue will ya? =)

Originally Posted by Atador

You will never 1v1 me! muhuhhahahaah! plus your a BA, and ur evade buff would kill me..... but yes, good post

LOL! But, you saw me try, and try, and try last night hahaha! I'd always come close, then you'd get a heal and Viduo would shove a lightning bolt up my rear end! I will be watching for ya.


***Anyway, thanks for the comments guys. I'll see ya in the Moors***

As a complete newbie in the moors I can definitely say I have seen enough of what people laugh/cry/complain/get violent over/enjoy. Two weeks ago I rolled my first creep (I am F2P so have never played Freep side in moors), I chose defiler and I ran out of Gramsfoot and within seconds was ganked by a burg who was hiding. No problem, ran a different way and boom ghanked again by the same burg. Since then I have been ghanked a bunch by single freeps camping rez circles or patrolling HH, but I have also been involved in some really good group fights.

I have been in group fights with largely BR freeps and largely Ainur freeps and mixes. I can see why people tend to complain about Ainur, you guys are extremely organized, you do a lot of target firing and you use NPCs to your advantage whenever you can, also move slowly as a group so it is difficult to pick off stragglers. As a heal-orc I have no sprint, no stealth and only 1 HOT that can't be interrupted since I am not R5 yet, this makes me extremely easy to kill and some times it feels like I am just bait since I can't run, can't hide and can't survive any form of CC.

As for balance, so far I can say that R0 creeps who have no purchased skills have no chance, which makes it frustrating to rank up since you either have to rely completely on PvE questing or on finding big group fights where you can gold tag. I invested TP in unlocking the defiler class, but haven't bought any skills and since I am F2P I can't use destiny points for buffs I am as standard as they come, and honestly that is the way it should be. I think unlocking high level skills and traits with points is a sad attempt at pandering to the new players and doesn't belong in a competetive environment, if anything I would say it would be fine for PvE, but it just doesn't belong in PvP.

Originally Posted by Traur

As a complete newbie in the moors I can definitely say I have seen enough of what people laugh/cry/complain/get violent over/enjoy. Two weeks ago I rolled my first creep (I am F2P so have never played Freep side in moors), I chose defiler and I ran out of Gramsfoot and within seconds was ganked by a burg who was hiding. No problem, ran a different way and boom ghanked again by the same burg.

Welcome to the Moors Traur :P Dem Burgs are nasty. Once you get more maps, you get Burg'd less. (Note: I said LESS. It will still happen haha. Few Creeps can withstand a Burg sneak attack. )

Originally Posted by Maxterz

LOL! But, you saw me try, and try, and try last night hahaha! I'd always come close, then you'd get a heal and Viduo would shove a lightning bolt up my rear end! I will be watching for ya.

Lightning Bolts come down, they don't go up..........

Originally Posted by Maxterz

Hmm, what else.. OH! When ever you guys can get me a message Creepside let me know if you wanta 1vs1.

I will gladly 1v1 anyone as well on the condition that you turn auto attack off and do nothing but run in circles, so far Klagg is the only one to comply but that was a great 1v1! If you feed me 2 ranks I MIGHT be persuaded to let you auto attack.

Originally Posted by Traur

As for balance, so far I can say that R0 creeps who have no purchased skills have no chance, which makes it frustrating to rank up since you either have to rely completely on PvE questing or on finding big group fights where you can gold tag.

Even R0 creeps who have bought all their skills have no chance against an experienced freep. With rank requiring pots and the addition of Battle Field Promotions raw rank is worth even more then it was pre-RoI. However, it also needs to be said that and R0 creep (specially a warg or reaver) can do quite well against an ungeared froob, something you don't see much of on Dwarrow, which is why f2p freepside MIGHT be very good for Dwarrow since the froobs will come out a little more. (On other servers a mini or RK with 2k morale running around is not an uncommon sight).


P.S The reply to Traur was actually serious.

Originally Posted by New_Requiem

Agreed, lol its been fun daily so far.

Roar! Keep it coming! My warg is always hungry =P

Originally Posted by Traur

As for balance, so far I can say that R0 creeps who have no purchased skills have no chance, which makes it frustrating to rank up since you either have to rely completely on PvE questing or on finding big group fights where you can gold tag. I invested TP in unlocking the defiler class, but haven't bought any skills and since I am F2P I can't use destiny points for buffs I am as standard as they come, and honestly that is the way it should be. I think unlocking high level skills and traits with points is a sad attempt at pandering to the new players and doesn't belong in a competetive environment, if anything I would say it would be fine for PvE, but it just doesn't belong in PvP.

This is on purpose. R0 creeps are supposed to be equivalent in power level to level 50 freeps running around the moors. The infamy quests are a good idea because they allow creeps to reach a reasonable power level without grinding 5 points at a time gold tagging in zerg balls, but buying R10 skills on a brand new creep is what's throwing the balance out of whack. It should have been either or, but not both.

Originally Posted by Eldrandir

Lightning Bolts come down, they don't go up..........

It's viduo, he can make them come form the side if he wants lol.

Originally Posted by Eldrandir

(On other servers a mini or RK with 2k morale running around is not an uncommon sight).

./drool they need to transfer to dwarrow :3

Originally Posted by connor9890

./drool they need to transfer to dwarrow :3

Yea really, before they get their gear.

In response to the "IMO, you are in with the NPCs too much "

If this remotely refers to fighting yesterday afternoon in EC, you should realize that when either side is outnumbered in a given fight, especially when drastically outnumbered (e.g. max 10 [our group had 6 at the peak] freep vs 20+ creep, as even confessed by some on creep side that afternoon), they will likely seek not to completely feed the opposing side and utilize the balancing factor of npcs (though in yesterday's case, if you guys just rushed the camp with all your numbers, npcs would be meaningless in the deathtrap EC is).

I assure you that anyone I fight with in Ainur prefers the rare gem of a relatively even-numbered fight in the open field.

Originally Posted by Maxterz

Welcome to the Moors Traur :P Dem Burgs are nasty. Once you get more maps, you get Burg'd less. (Note: I said LESS. It will still happen haha. Few Creeps can withstand a Burg sneak attack. )

Mr. Burgey says, ''Maps are bad, mkay?''.

You need to come back

Originally Posted by New_Requiem

You need to come back

I Saw this post and was like, Oh Cool Zero's back, one of the first people to help me out.

then I noticed the date on the post :-(

That being said I read the post and thought wow nothing changes.

Wompadoo

Zeeeeroooooooo coooooooome baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!! !!!

We (meaning I) miss yooooouuuuu

he really does...great player and awesome person ...still remember him leading 6 mans that wiped freep raids

rofl! i still remember zeero asking noobish questions in OOC when he appeared, and few months later he was a great creep around , funny thing is he was trying to convince his wife to play creepside too. I guess the lightsaber paranoia (swtor) got him for good later, i barely survived that epidemy trololol!!!