Thread: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

Forgive my noobness but I do not know what tiering for hunter's art means. Its long, awkward animation that breaks the flow of combat will need to be addressed though.

Your suggested improvements for split shot are amazing. It just went from skill I have not quick-slotted to a must use skill when facing multiple enemies with no focus.

Combat traps should not only allow 'set traps' to be used in combat. Also, the damage from set snare is very low and, as mentioned by the poster above, I miss the rooting from penetrating shot. Other than that, ToF is pretty competent solo but is too weak to be our secondary role in fellowships.

Lastly, thanks for not forsaking hunters.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

My thought for Hunters Art are:[*]Slightly increase damage[*]Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

- whatever happens, Endurance buff needs scaling to actually offset power cost of HA itself.
- I have a feeling stacking AND refreshing buffs could become a reason to nerf buffs themselves, so... perhaps equivalent of Writ of Well-Being added to legacy / recycled trait instead?

Or, since we are lacking dedicated legacy or traits for HA... how about additional incentive to trait 4+ or red/blue/*yellow* capstone linked with Hunter's Art?

For example:
- if traited deep red (4, 5, capstone, whatever) - X % of hunter's dps applies to target's power as well; not stackable, scaled for moors to prevent immediate draining PvE bosses / creeps' outrage

- if traited deep blue - something like -X% AD

- if traited deep yellow - either a standard, boring debuff (inc damage, + AD, + inductions, etc, etc), or something different than LM/Burg-lite ---> + X % threat generated by mob's current target; it could give HA *and* Yellow additional support role and in the process help puggish tanks a little - as long as they can hold aggro for more than few seconds

It would be also great as Stealthraidwipeskill, Rain of Arrows is too hard to hide

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

My thoughts for Split shot are:[*]Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)[*]Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit

...with stuff above it is already enough, even without the rest - but this is also biased blueliner speaking.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in.

It is telling that nobody bothered to mention Threat legacies. How about consolidating those two and adding threat management instead? For example, legacy that adds small % of permanent threat reduction to BN?

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback about are (...) to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since.

It didn't change that much. Content, on the other hand, changed significantly. Between RoI and U5 cluster there is/was simply no incentive to bother with CC. Skirmish (mini)bosses shrug it off, Bugraigoch laughs at it and with +10lv over previous endgame instances it is not as crucial to follow CC script. Assuming people run them for more than nostalgia. I'd rather not speak about landscape application of Yellow, we might as well trait Pink and Magenta for solo content, it won't make a difference with the rare exceptions, usually based on personal preference.

That said, I had great fun with Yellow in EotD version, though mostly thanks to Poison/Disease, sometimes Fear. I might be biased, it wouldn't be the same without people that made it so interesting. I still remember unlucky pull that left three people alive and CC/DPS spam with LM and Minstrel until last Kergrim finally died. Sure, it was Burglar-ish, but if debuffing is enhanced in some unique direction, that problem will be gone.

Personally, I would wait with passing a judgement over ToF *after* we can experiment with U5 cluster.


Edit:

Originally Posted by NecrosIX

Tiering for hunter's art

I assume it would be similar to current stacking of HA buffs, but with single timer instead of two buffs ticking independently, refreshed with each application of HA.

Thank you for posting, ZC. Here's some brains for you to munch on while you read my wall of text.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

{1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs}
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

Here’s the deal with the OOC regen amounts… In order for us to find BC useful (absent any kind of in-combat buff which would be muy perferrable), it has to be comparable to OOC food regen or destiny point regen. Doesn’t have to be better than or equal to. Just somewhere in the realm of.

My thought for Hunters Art are (and) My thoughts for Split shot are:

Win.

{Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line.} I'm really hesitant here… My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

Okay, the TOF line… Trust us, it’s based on experience. There are three issues with the trapper line and you can break them down into the three “realms” of playing that we do: Open World (questing), Instancing (grouping, with an emphasis on raids) and PVP.

The first issue with the trapper line is that without traiting it, our CC is still very potent. For example, we don’t need to trait combat traps because if we need traps in combat, we can drop crafted traps. We don’t need barbed hindrance because we have two other slows (though I’m in the minority and LOVE barbed hindrance). We don’t need Strong Intimidation because in so many situations, where a feared mob can aggro previously un-aggro’d mobs, an extra 5 seconds is dangerous and can be detrimental. We don’t want heightened senses. It’s nearly useless in any realm but PVP and it should be innate anyway. And as potent as Explosive Arrow is, we don’t need it because we have fears and traps to supplement our daze.

The Second issue with Trapper is that there’s rarely, if ever, CC in boss fights. ToF is a potent CC line. Especially prior to ROI when Burgs couldn’t riddle nature and LM’s couldn’t mezz dead (maybe they still can’t), Explosive Arrow could handle them all. There’s no argument that a trapper traited hunter is not an effective CC class. It’s that rarely do we need that much CC. It’s too situational. OD has a lot of instances where a trapper traited hunter could excel. And with the new raid coming, and the new Anger mechanic, there’s even greater opportunities. But the weakness of the line is always, “Ok hunters, the trash is cleared, we’re at the boss, go retrait for DPS.” In other words, whenever we are in ToF and see its value, there’s always a place in the same instance where it’s no longer valuable anymore.

The Third issue with Trapper is there’s no value to it in PVP. I know, I know. We don’t balance the game for pvp. But it is part of the game. And because of CC pots and Diminishing Returns on CC, there’s no value in traiting it other than Barbed Hindrance and Heightened Senses (which we want innate).

So, in Open World, ToF no good because our untraited CC is more than enough. In Instances, while it can be potent situationally, ultimately its no good because we are traiting out of it for boss fights. And in PVP its no good because of creep pots and Diminishing Returns.

Please. Kill it.

Turn it into a melee line. Yes, the hunters here bitched to high heaven when you even mentioned it. But they were wrong. Do your thing and let us try it out in Beta.

Turn it into a support line. Let us cure wounds, diseases, fears. Heal morale and power. Give Stun Immunity. Rez. We’re hunters, we should have woodlore. There’s a role there.

Turn it into a ranged tanking line. Give us a trait that returns our threat component, adds armor or morale, a bubble to Press Onward. I understand it could become OP quickly, but there's another role there that we've lost and would like to fill.

But no more trapper. Please.

Please keep Barbed Hindrance around. :-)

{5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power}
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in

I don’t think it’s that we’re specifically after the DPS increase. It’s that we want customizability options. We’re locked in on Focus and induction crit and it take up all our points. Reduce the magnitude even if that’s the concern. It’d be nice to max all six legacies, whichever legacies we may choose them to be.

{6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart}
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

Heartseeker is only good when it crits. Often, a non crit heartseeker is going to hit for far below the tool tip damage listed even. So we’re using all that power, and all that induction time and praying for a crit. Not a satisfactory way to fight.

Shot through the heart isn’t as good anymore because we’re using HS most often in combination with Improved Focus. But that buff is so short, we can’t send in a barbed arrow first to take advantage of the Shot Through the Heart bonus.

{10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored}
If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.

The issue with Needful Haste has less to do with the skill specifically than it does with how Resolute Aim impacts it. We’ve long relied on Resolute Aim to use our inductions with melee on us. With the reduction in duration to NH, we’re getting less time of with those non-interrupted inductions. We’re feeling the pain. Accutely.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

2) My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

3) My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage

4) I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

5) I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

10) If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.

2) I just started playing an RK personally, so I've just been exposed to the Writs. Love this idea being applied to Hunter's Art. It would definitely find its way back to my slots at the very least with this change.

What would happen if one was to stance-dance with this version of Hunter's Art? Say I got the Precision bonus and switched to Strength... would it clear the Precision bonus or would I have both buffs? I kind of like the idea of being able to have both for a short time, but say the buff lasts for 30s and the skill has a CD of 20s. You'd be able to have both buffs up at the same time but the one you applied first would be lost before you could tier it up again. Could add some interesting strategy... stack a couple Finesse buffs, switch to Strength to gain the damage buff, at the cost of losing your tiered Finesse but a good time to really blast something with Heartseeker or something.

3) The worst part about Split Shot is the radius. If you can improve that part it might actually be usable. I'd also like to see Arrow Storm to affect that skill as well, though maybe not by the same numbers.

And what I'd really like to see on this topic is Rain of Arrows, Split Shot, and Low Cut all granting some kind of bonus to one of the other skills, kind of how Scourging Blow and Barbed Arrow work together now. I got bored at work one day and planned out certain ways that could work, though I'm sure most hunters would be outraged at the RoA change.

Split Shot crit resets cooldowns on Rain of Arrows
Rain of Arrows crit removes induction from Split Shot
Low Cut crit lowers focus cost of Rain of Arrows by one

4) I've used it before and after, though sparingly on both. While I understand you're worried about making the trait line too powerful, it's still quite underpowered. A lot of the traits seem to be a mish-mash of whatever doesn't fit into the other lines, thus making it odd to hit the capstone with related traits. A couple of the traits seem to be ones that you'd use only if primarily traiting a different color (like 5 reds, and throw in the power reduction yellow one) as opposed to using while yellow traited. Personally, if I'm traited yellow I'm probably not going to care about the cooldown on my HS being reduced whenever I fear something with Bard's Arrow. I'm probably shooting it for the CC. I'm also probably not going to care about threat, as there's a very likely chance that if I'm traited yellow it'll be either solo where threat doesn't matter, or in a group where someone will out-threat me since I'm not traited for DPS. The trap damage one is useless since both trap and snare do such insignificant damage, 25% more isn't noticeable at all. And the incoming damage buff for Set Trap is either bugged, or so short that I don't ever see it on the mob.

I would like to see Set Snare usable in combat with the same trait that allows Set Trap, but that's not too important. I would also like to see the capstone at +25 seconds or include a reduction to Distracting Shot's cooldown, as currently LMs can lock down one mob permanently (or two with very very little uptime for either mob or with the +5s from DN or the new CC set) and burgs can keep one locked down as long as the hunter can, but can trait to both add a stun at the beginning of the mez or extend the mez by an extra 5s, thus guaranteeing that the mob will not move, and neither of those involve traiting 5 deep as ours does.

5) A couple of the legacies do need work, but I'm personally fine with the crit legacies as is. Makes you decide if you really want to put both on, or if you want to put just one on based on your traitline (focus crit for blue, induction for red). That being said, I wouldn't complain if they got combined (I believe champs have one legacy for our two essentially) and I definitely wouldn't mind seeing power combined into one legacy, as it is currently I don't put either on because there's other legacies I'd rather put on. If it affected all skills (to include the melee ones in addition to focus and induction skills) it may be more useful. I think Low Cut could stand to be changed to a 100% chance at max as Agile Rejoinder was, and Agile Rejoinder I believe needs to scale a bit better on the heal (or perhaps be affected by Tactical Mastery, and have Agility give 5 points to Tac Mastery, as Might does for Wardens).

10) I'm personally a fan of the change to Needful Haste. It used to be up for 30 seconds with a cooldown of 2 minutes, and now it's 15 seconds with a cooldown of 1 minute, correct? Without the legacy uptime remains the same (25%, although it's still about a second more with no animation now), but with the legacy Needful Haste has gone from being up 38% of the time before to being up 50% of the time now.

All those hunters on the wardens forums wanting Orion to comment on them, you can have him! I want ZC!!

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.


9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

Hi ZC, thanks for answering.

Just one point there: blindside also /needs/ two more things to even be ''viable'' as interrupt, since it's a melee skill (for a ranged class...)

1) Immediate. Now it just takes too long, even if you try to interrupt your current inductions.
2) Fluidity. Interrupt skills need to be fluid like clobber, addle, abrupt words...; The ''root'', the eternal animation makes is very annoying IMHO.

Thanks.

#9
This a def win ZC, last time I played my hunter was with a full hunter group doing great barrows.
We all tried to do the interrupt so the dying wights wouldnt spawn the worms, but between internet
timing, and the animation, it made you want to do some hair pulling.

Granted I'll hate this in the moors as you can get away from the animation currently if you learn certain
hunter's predictability, but it's a change hunter's deserve.

The induction of splitshot is too slow. I hope that'll also be changed.

We still have no real mention of any sort of survivability, or our crazy low morale. A revamp of DF to make it useful in the moors or something .. anything would be nice? At the moment it's either very low morale and good dps, or a higher morale pool and poor dps, but still being killed very quick and easily. Something would be nice!

Regarding Split Shot...

+1 focus per target is kinda useless IMO. It just sounds nice.

Please keep the aoe target legacy effect.

Let me explain.

With some combination of Deadly Precision, Arrow Storm, Hail of Arrows, and Critical Eye, a hunter in an AOE situation gets to chain Rain of Arrows non-stop because the skill has very high chance to crit overall, it resets as long as it crits on one target, and it generates enough focus to cover its own cost as long as it crits on at least three targets. Rain of Arrows chain is basically self-sustaining. The more targets there are, the less likely it is for the hunter to fail to reset RoA or to generate enough focus to fire the next RoA. There is very little need to build focus specifically. My rotation in an AoE fight is basically RoA -> BlA/PS -> RoA non-stop if it feels like I have enough focus or RoA -> iQS -> RoA if it doesn't. The iQS in the second rotation isn't so much for focus generation, but more for its speed -- it's a fast induction skill I can squeeze in before the RoA reset kicks in, and the focus it gives is just a bonus.

Basically, focus isn't an issue in an AOE fight until the number of mobs dwindles towards the end, at which point, the hunter might as well switch back to normal single target rotation to finish off the remainders. Granting additional focus generating ability to Split Shot but reducing its actual AOE capacity is IMO contradictory. In an AOE fight, what benefit do I gain from using a slow induction skill that generates focus I have little use for? Rain of Arrows already pay for itself most of the time. Even if I do get extremely focus-starved for some reason, a single iQS is still faster to pull off and usually adequate to feed my next Rain of Arrows.

IMO, the Split Shot I want and would actually use in an AOE fight is:
- wide enough with its radius to hit all the melee targets that are bunched up on all sides of the tank. This means 5m radius I guess? The issue with the current radius is that, unless everything is bunched up on the same side of the tank, Split Shot can't reach targets flanking the other side of the tank while I'm targetting things on the opposite side. I'm not proposing a huge radius increase to the effects of RoA or RoT, but just a small increase so it can hit everything around the tank will immediately make it a lot more attractive to use.
- affected by aoe target legacy. It is an AOE skill by name and by definition. Please don't twist this. Seriously.
- affected by Hail of Arrows trait crit bonuses, but maybe to a lesser extent so it doesn't become too overpowered.
- affected by Arrow Storm trait reset on crit effect (but I guess this isn't happening because this is the exact bonus on the new huntsman raid set in update 5 )

By increasing the radius and number of targets Split Shot can hit, and by increasing the chance the skill can crit, the skill by itself can already generate a lot of focus with crits from Deadly Precision. There's no need to change the base mechanics of the skill just so it can give more focus at the cost of less actual targets (and hence less actual DPS done in an AOE situation).

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

OOC rege should be at least tripled. Incombat is nice idea, if you allow us to use it in combat too.

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs

Not bad, if it will trigger on use, not on successful hit.

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage

All this skill needs is increased radius.

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

Comments on ToF: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...amp-suggestion

To reiterate - dps+cc is not needed. I still can't find fellowship damage buffs (bpe debuff is not needed, every dps class has enough finesse; 10s debuff from trap is a joke if you count that). We need more raid utility as I have suggested in the thread linked above.

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

So because you think our DPS is too high we are penalized by poor legacies?

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

Since we are ranged class and blindside is melee skill, we should be able to use it on the move. I can't count times where rapid interrupt was needed and all other options failed, I ran to the target used Blindside only to be informed I can not use it on the move and the uninterrupted induction hurt the group badly.

The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback about are my ideas on Split Shot and Hunters Art, and to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since.

Only place I have used ToF was OD, and that was only in some special cases for few pulls or one boss fight. I had to retrait back to my normal setup after that. To say it again, pure dps+cc role is NOT needed in current state of the game. If ToF does not offer efficient alternative to burglar/lm buffs/debuffs, it will never be desirable traitline.

For PvMP ToF is absolutely useless because of diminishing returns.

edit: Oh and if you decided to turn eye on us hunters, please first fix the bugs : http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-Hunter-Issues

edit2: Please take a second look at Update 5 hunter armor set bonuses, feedback thread here in case you missed it : http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...er-Set-Bonuses.

Does Hunters Art need to have a damage component? This seems like the kinda thing that was probably tried and decided on in Beta, but I think HA might be a lot more useful if it DIDNT have a damage component, and so could be used as a prebuff before a fight, in combination with Focus, without actually starting the fight...

Ie, before a big fight, I'll throw down Burn Hot, Improved Fleetness, Improved Focus, and Needful Haste, then use a slow-traited Barbed Arrow as my pull. I'd throw a Hunter's Art in there somewhere too, if it didnt A) pull the target if I fired it before BA, or B) slow down my DPS rotation too much if I used it after BA.

You could either speed it up so its a Fast skill (or whatever you call it) that doesnt interrupt your rotation as much, or you could make it non-damage (or both!) so that you could use it as a prebuff. As it stands, for most fights you're probably better off just using another high-damage skill, rather than spending the time firing off a HA for the small bonus it returns.

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

Yess!! but please don't 'wrap' it into any line.. hunters just don't use trapper line in a form it is now hmm.. or ever But in-combat buff for a fellowship would be nice to have!

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:
Slightly increase damage
Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

Up for that, but cut the first part of animation and through it away or replace it with better one, also make it feel less clanky

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
Slightly increase radius
Slightly increase damage

I think its a great improvement, at least heading that way, but also i think it will work better if you cut away first part of induction animation ( hehe, again ) , thus making the whole induction shorter and usable I would start using it in my rotation

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

yep.. whenever a fellowship invites a hunter, they expect dps.. thus said, we have cc classes that do better job. But it could be changed into different support part - someone mentioned depoisoning, curing desease etc - something to look at here i think

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

Heartseeker only good if it crits, if it doesn't - totally useless, especially for the amount of time it takes to induct..

8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow)
Unlikely to see significant change here. Induction-less was attempted during beta and it was too problematic to stay around. As for on the move, such a change would need to be paired with a range reduction, or a reduction in the potency of the Hunters slows. This is not a direction we are planning on moving in.

Hunter class is based on agility!!! As for now, i don't feel agile really some skills just have to be done on the move. I would love to be able to fight on the move ( at least some skills, and quick shot is a good one for that ).. For me hunter feels a bit rooted, can't move around much while fighting. PLease make us more agile, as the stat determines us to be such, to be able to change positions quickly without getting ''can't use that skill while moving'' message.

I'd like to see ToF be more geared towards solo survivability. Better melee skills and things like faster inductions for sote, and guaranteed heal on agile rejoinder.

I also really like the idea of melee skills generating focus, this may require some cooldown adjustments, however. I know this came up before, but I still think it's a great idea.

Problem with split shot for me is that it isn't strong enough to be an opener, and there are better ways to build focus (speaking from the perspective of a solo only hunter). The induction is too long for that. When you're out solo and handling multiple mobs, you really do want to burn that first mob down quick - dealing with just 1 or 2 is a LOT easier.

If I've rooted or feared on a pull - then I'm not going to use it either - as I'll be concerned that it'll free 2 targets instead of one, and that it'll tag the feared/dazed target instead of the 2 I want to hit.

Won't comment on hunter's art, as I just haven't used it very much. The animation is kinda long, and landscape fights are over so quick, buffing yourself kinda takes a backseat.

"The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback..........., and to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since."

Well, I've never met a hunter who used trapper...ever....the penalties to dps were just way too huge for the hunter to feel useful.....so enjoy the conversation if you can find any.

Me, I've always wanted the improved CC, but just couldn't get around everyone expecting a hunter to have decent dps.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:[LIST][*]Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)[*]Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit[*]Slightly increase radius[*]Slightly increase damage

Not exactly sure what "tiering up" means. At any rate, you forgot one very common complaint about Hunter's Art. For being an instant skill, it's not very instant with the whole comic effect of, "Throw your hands in the air and say yeaa. Yeaa!" I think lots of hunters would like for this casting animation to go the way of the do do and just die a quick death.

Regarding Split Shot, how "slight" is slight? That skill is totally situational in its current state. We only get use out of it if mobs are stacked on top of each other on a tank. That's how tiny the radius is right now. I'm thinking 5 - 8 yards to make it less situational and more utility. If the legacy won't effect it anymore, then it will always be 2 or 3 targets (depending on the trait bonus). It wouldn't be that unreasonable to have a 5 - 8 yard radius. I'd say 5 yards is a nice place to start testing in a future push on Bullroarer. Damage wise, it should be on par or close to Quickshot damage.

When I solo I trait for CC. It seems like most Moors hunters prefer DPS build, but I preferred my CC build out there as well. I am especially happy in RoI that the damage penalty is gone.

Thanks Ferthcott for the explanation about what tiering for hunter's art means. It's a good change then. Stacking, say, 3 +5% ranged damage from strength stance would be too attractive to ignore for boss fights.

I would like to add that, come update 5, hunters will be the only medium armour class without ample compensation for the medium armour nerf that hit with RoI. So I would like to add my support to the suggestion by previous posters to allow more Hunter durability through ToF. This change alone will see ToF being used by hunters (especially PvMP'ers?) who do not enjoy being glass cannons. Maybe some of ToF's focus can be diverted to enhancing the other survival skills of hunters. Some traits like lengthening the fear duration (which risks drawing more aggro) and increasing the negligible trap damage are not really needed. Your suggestion to allow in-combat regen for bright campfire is a good start to making ToF more attractive. How about also letting our bright campfire accelerate the countdown timers on status ailments?

I really think that HA is very easy to improve and make a justified skill to use, since this skill as such has a healthy core:

- remove stance relation
- make it work for 30 seconds without stacking
- give it all the benefits of all previous stances, but to lesser extent (f.e. like 3% damage, 400 finesse, 200 icpr).

Numbers might be a bit low or high, but the idea is quite clear .

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

Edit: Just to clarify, things I'm talking about here are potentials for Update 6. Update 5 is very much put to bed at this point.

Thank you for your responses ZC. The one thing I'd like to see is a revamp to Bow of the Righteous to make it worthwhile in terms of power return - and perhaps even a tiny amount of morale.

I haven't traited it since level 40. Intent Concentration healing 750 power per pop and Press Onward at 3:30CD mean I don't need power pots.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

It also needs to be immediate, a non immediate interrupt on an induction class is as useless as giving a ranged class a melee interrupt.

Originally Posted by Aedfrith

Thank you for your responses ZC. The one thing I'd like to see is a revamp to Bow of the Righteous to make it worthwhile in terms of power return - and perhaps even a tiny amount of morale.

I haven't traited it since level 40. Intent Concentration healing 750 power per pop and Press Onward at 3:30CD mean I don't need power pots.

hmm.... press onward gives you in middle 1343 power per 3:30

bow of the rigteous gives you in the same time 1428 power. (lets say 30 skills per min) or even 1904 if you could mange it to use 40 skills per min.

and i need, even with all 3 things power pots. (and an icpr of 1500, with -20% powercost (12% book, 8%bow)

as some other hunters have mentioned, very very few of us use or even dabble in the ToF line.. so I'd think there might be some difficulty getting feedback on use ... but therein lies some sort of evidence that something might be seriously lacking in the line.... I do like the ideas posted about making the ToF line more about solo play and giving it some melee buff. Would be a nice alternative to a "bow spec". Maybe include traits there that would give strong melee and a defensive bubble and buff the trapping skills in it to include non-resistable traps/snares .. would make for a very interesting and potentially viable alternative build.


oh.. while I'm at it... I would like to see Improved Focus modified... extend the buff and decrease the % crit chance .. maybe make it a 15s buff that gives a 15% crit chance.

Make Fleetness worth the cost of focus required to use it. First, make it a bit longer like around 30s. Second, no induction on Improved Quick Shot, Barbed Arrow, Improved Swiftbow, and Spit Shot (HS not included) for its duration, w/ a cd of 2 or 3min. This can be played around with a bit by giving legacy adding duration and/or a legacy reducing cd.

Originally Posted by Milithion

hmm.... press onward gives you in middle 1343 power per 3:30

bow of the rigteous gives you in the same time 1428 power. (lets say 30 skills per min)

But doesn't give you any morale. And I don't just use PO (even though, along with DF, it's the closest thing a hunter has to an "oh !"£"!" button, like the champ bubble, warden NS or burg HIPS) but also the much faster Intent Concentration cooldown.

Originally Posted by Aedfrith

But doesn't give you any morale. And I don't just use PO (even though, along with DF, it's the closest thing a hunter has to an "oh !"£"!" button, like the champ bubble, warden NS or burg HIPS) but also the much faster Intent Concentration cooldown.

jeah, but where do you need this moral? you need the moral if you are in trouble, and normaly you should never be in such situations.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

The buff size needs to scale with level. Otherwise, it's simultaneously overpowered at low level and weak at high levels. Wrapping it into the Trapper Line will only work if the line itself works, which is a bigger issue.

The camp fire buff needs to be strong enough that players notice it, but not so strong it can substitute for any existing buff source. Make the size of the buff maybe 50-70% of what we can get from food at the same level, both in and out of combat - a discount because we're not using up consumables, and because it'd affect the whole group. This could potentially include buffs to mitigations, also obtainable from food.

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are: Slightly increase damage; Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

The second sounds good, but consider making the skill zero damage, so we can use it as a pre battle buff.

My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage

All sounds good.

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

A big issue. This isn't just about what hunters think of the line, but about what other classes expect from hunters.

Our primary role is dps, and always will be. If we sacrifice dps, compared to what the other two lines other, for crowd control, then what other classes will see is a hunter who can't deliver the expected dps. Having crowd control doesn't make up for this, in their eyes; they've got primary crowd-controlling classes who can deliver that much better.

All three lines need to deliver the same top tier dps in instances, or they simply won't be welcome there, and all three lines need to be able to perform a secondary role on top of that, in the same way as champs can off-tank. In principle, you could have one line optimal for instances and another for soloing, but in practice as long as the instance line is viable on landscape, people will stay in it all the time rather than constantly retraiting, leaving the intended soloing line little used.

Looked at in that light, the trapper line needs its dps increasing to match the other two, and they need to gain a viable secondary role.

There's also an issue with crowd control in instances in general. Since bosses are mostly immune to it, anyone set up to do crowd control, of whatever class, is partially hobbled. That's a matter for the instance designers, not the class devs, but it does make crowd control feel less desirable.

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in.

Consolidating the power legacies wouldn't much increase dps, and would create room for a new legacy, preferably one that boosts our secondary role. If that kind of support legacy needs to go on the melee weapon, the critical magnitude in precision could perhaps be shifted to the bow

Your other five comments all look good - not what we'd like, perhaps, but definitely promising.

Some ideas for ZC iro HA, SS and ToF:

Hunter`s Art:
* Non-damaging self-buff for 750 finess with 15s duration, 30s CD, 2 focus cost and in-combat use;
* Respective trait to improve it (most likely within "yellow" line) => 1`500 finess, same duration CD and cost, but also applicable for fellowship member with 10m radius.

Split Shot:
* applicable to up to 3 targets within 5m radius of selected target; base damage of each arrow increased by at least 20% vs current;
* in case there are less then 3 targets within am radius, overall 3 arrow damage is distributed between avaliable targets, f.e.: 2 targets = 1 arrow damage * 1,5; 1 target only = 1 arrow damage * 3.

Yellow Trait changes:

1) Combine Barbed Hindrance and Barbed Fury under 1 trait and make it within red line preferrably.

2) PenShot root - instead of a set bonus ppl want to return, create a separate yellow trait for it, f.e.:
5 sec root, 10 sec CD, in case of crit root becomes unbreakable/unpottable and lasts for 10 sec. This would increase hunters survivability (a thing all hunters greatly desire these days);

3) H-Senses - make it usefull, i.e. target should not be able to elude your track unless using combat hips. Under current stage this trait is worthless to equip (about 25-30% of the time I get "eluded" message BEFORE tracked target appears on mini-map).

4) Trap traits - 3 trap traits to be created/refreshed in order to allow:
a) use of whole pannel of traps with separate CDs for each type, 50% decrease to traps CDs and inductions;
b) use of traps in combat and increase of their normal damage by 25%;
c) use of snairs in combat and on a move.

5) Improved Cry of the Predator - trait allowing to use it against any hostile creature (perhaps even as AoE skill)

Other traits to remain as they are.

Set bonuses:
for 2 - adds 1`000 resistance penalty on effected target;
for 3 - adds 15% slow on effected target after breaking/potting root/daze/fear
for 4 - adds 250 resistance penalty on effected target per each yellow trait equipped.

Originally Posted by Tithias

Make Fleetness worth the cost of focus required to use it. First, make it a bit longer like around 30s. Second, no induction on Improved Quick Shot, Barbed Arrow, Improved Swiftbow, and Spit Shot (HS not included) for its duration, w/ a cd of 2 or 3min. This can be played around with a bit by giving legacy adding duration and/or a legacy reducing cd.

No induction on Swiftbow and splitshot is a lot to ask for. Anything doing that much dps is OP without induction.
Against melee classes in moors, barbed arrow induction can be removed if u use scourging blow first and with proper rotation it can be induction free most of the time.

It will be really good idea to have no induction on Improved quickshot while improved fleetness is up. Also melee skills should not root the hunter at one place.

Originally Posted by Vilanthir

Perfect for me. But the animation of Hunter's Art is too slow. When you're using a lot of fast skills, stop for using a slow skill like Hunter's Art seems to be wasting time, even for the buffs.

I agree. There is also a problem of when the skill aggros. The aggro is immediate and the target closes ~10m (1/4 of the max distance) as I raise my flaming arrow in the air and shoot. He's closed in on me before I even loose an arrow. If I was able to use the skill and have the animation go off before the effect, it would be smoother. Still slow in-combat, but smoother as a starting attack.

Originally Posted by Adelric

There's also an issue with crowd control in instances in general. Since bosses are mostly immune to it, anyone set up to do crowd control, of whatever class, is partially hobbled. That's a matter for the instance designers, not the class devs, but it does make crowd control feel less desirable.

This is it exactly. And I'd just like to add to this, in comparing the Loremaster and burglar CC to the hunter:

To get the full LM CC, the loremaster isn't actually traiting CC. They're typically traiting debuffs. Ancient Master. Similarly, the Burg isn't specifically traiting CC either, they're traiting a line mixed with powerful debuffs and some CC buffs. Mischief. In both of those lines, the components that gives them their full CC capabilities are ancillary to their primary role, debuffing. So those those two classes "traiting CC" are actually gaining CC capabilities from traiting debuffs.

What this means is that when the get to places in the content where CC isn't viable (stuff is immune or better off AOE'd), those two classes still have utility and still fill their primary role - debuffer.

The Trapper line is the opposite. We're traiting CC and gaining very few debuffs. So when we encounter content where CC isn't viable (immunity or better off AOE'd), we are actually becoming detrimental to the group. We have a couple debuffs, low health, low dps. Better that we weren't even there.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

Seems fine to us too.

Your friends,
The Wargs

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Seems fine to us too.

Your friends,
The Wargs

This is true, for a fully geared hunter with induction crit multiplier maxed, Burn Hot maxed, HS damage maxed, improved focus, cool burn, in precision with the 13% crit multipler, a heartseeker can 1shot. Super powerful no doubt.

However, when it doesn't crit...

For example, I hit cool burn in combat (so no improved focus), with the maxed legacies I listed above, 20% Crit, 20k RO, and Heartseeker'ed a rank 7 war leader. My tool tip without the buff from from cool burn says it will hit between 2500 and 3500 non crit.

I hit for 2100 with the 50% increase from cool burn. Not even worth the induction it took to get the skill off.

Originally Posted by Estranger

This is it exactly. And I'd just like to add to this, in comparing the Loremaster and burglar CC to the hunter:

To get the full LM CC, the loremaster isn't actually traiting CC. They're typically traiting debuffs. Ancient Master. Similarly, the Burg isn't specifically traiting CC either, they're traiting a line mixed with powerful debuffs and some CC buffs. Mischief. In both of those lines, the components that gives them their full CC capabilities are ancillary to their primary role, debuffing. So those those two classes "traiting CC" are actually gaining CC capabilities from traiting debuffs.

What this means is that when the get to places in the content where CC isn't viable (stuff is immune or better off AOE'd), those two classes still have utility and still fill their primary role - debuffer.

The Trapper line is the opposite. We're traiting CC and gaining very few debuffs. So when we encounter content where CC isn't viable (immunity or better off AOE'd), we are actually becoming detrimental to the group. We have a couple debuffs, low health, low dps. Better that we weren't even there.

This has been an issue since Moria, though. (edit: ok, exaccerbated by the trait line bonii in Moria, in SoA you'd slot things for different reasons)

A classic suggestion from back in the day is to have CC skills apply a debuff as well, so that the skills are more than a waste. An example was Bard's Arrow increase (ranged) damage received for the length of it's cooldown, so that on bosses, you'd include it in a rotation to keep the damage debuff constantly applied. That sort of thing.


@ ZC
I really like the idea of HA being a tiered, refreshable, stacking buff like writs.

Originally Posted by Estranger

This is true, for a fully geared hunter with induction crit multiplier maxed, Burn Hot maxed, HS damage maxed, improved focus, cool burn, in precision with the 13% crit multipler, a heartseeker can 1shot. Super powerful no doubt.

However, when it doesn't crit...

For example, I hit cool burn in combat (so no improved focus), with the maxed legacies I listed above, 20% Crit, 20k RO, and Heartseeker'ed a rank 7 war leader. My tool tip without the buff from from cool burn says it will hit between 2500 and 3500 non crit.

I hit for 2100 with the 50% increase from cool burn. Not even worth the induction it took to get the skill off.

I see your point but cant really sympathize since as a Warg my best crit on a non-heavy class is 1.3K. Heavy classes there is zero chance for me to ever crit (or dev) above 1K given current Freep Heavy Armor mitigations. However, Champions can easily crit for 2-4K on a fully armored (Shadow Howler) Warg.

Anyway, I will be watching this thread.

Originally Posted by Eldrandir

It also needs to be immediate, a non immediate interrupt on an induction class is as useless as giving a ranged class a melee interrupt.

I think eldrandir summed it up very nicely. It's not that we want another interrupt skill, ZC, it's just that what we have now requires us to give up our ranged advantage in order to interrupt an enemy's induction (provided we can even make it in time after closing the distance). Besides, blindside is such a valuable skill for generating focus that it will probably be used at first notice. Therefore, it will most likely be in cooldown when an interrupt is needed.

I suggest moving the interrupt functionality to hunter's art instead. It should give hunter's art some use outside of prolonged fights when buffs take a backseat to pure dps. Also, if hunter's art were to be tiered as per your suggestion, it would not be necessary to use it immediately after its cooldown is complete. Hence, freeing it up for use as an interrupt. The focus, on top of the power, required should help balance the fact that we would then have the longest ranged interrupt in the game.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

My input: An addition with some icmr and icpr would be quite nice, even if it was worked into a trait line.

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.
  
  My input: What about power cost? I tried working this into my rotation when isen was launched and I have a hard time seeing why I should spend 184 power(yes I know it can be reduced with legacies) for a +5% buff when I can use a much better and quicker move to down something like penetrating shot? The idea of the move is nice..but the power cost is a huge turn off for most people.
  

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage
  
  My input: I actually like this idea, though I have more of a suggestion but that'll be answered lower.
  
  

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

My input: Im on the fence about this really, i'm honestly not sure where to go or what to say about the trapper line.

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

My input: I think this would be a good idea to consider, but also at the same time consider reducing the +25% damage down to +20% for both focus/induction? And possibly slightly increase the power reduction? Theres plenty of ways this could be looked at.

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

My input: I think the point they were trying to make was increase the damage of shot through the heart, while I currently trait and use this i'm still getting around what I was pre-isen for critical/dev/normal shot through the heart hits.

7) Ranged Interrupt
Sorry, Hunters will not be getting an additional Interrupt.

My input: I wish this would be reconsidered, bards arrow/distracting shot only do so much against something ranged. Take for instance the blackarrows, maybe an implication of what they have? Add a longer CD but have it only effect ranged targets?

8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow)
Unlikely to see significant change here. Induction-less was attempted during beta and it was too problematic to stay around. As for on the move, such a change would need to be paired with a range reduction, or a reduction in the potency of the Hunters slows. This is not a direction we are planning on moving in.

My input: I was hoping this wouldnt be the case. I pvp quite a bit, and after seeing the skirmisher stance I wouldnt mind giving up some range for that type of power with zero inductions. Since stances are no longer tied to a trait line directly this could be implemented fairly easily and give us a way to counter them at their own game(pvp wise at least). Increase the focus cost for penetrating shot(while moving), keep the focus cost for bloodarrow(since you can shoot while on the move currently), bar heart seeker from being used in this stance, remove the induction for quickshot and slow for added critical chance, have the stance generate 1 focus point every 5 seconds while in the stance. Theres plenty that could be done here and I honestly feel it should be a consideration.

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

My input: Thank you!! I agree completely!

10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored
If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.

My input: I think that needful haste's duration should be increased by default to at least 20 seconds. The extra 5 seconds would help out immensely. If the duration isnt extended possibly the reduction in inductions should be increased more?

These are very vague ideas that I think would better the class and give it a more level playing field. I think the class could use some work for sure, hopefully this is actually read and taken seriously. Hope I helped in some way :]

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

In Combat could be great indeed

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.
  
  • Stance: Endurance: +20% Target Attack Duration for 30s
  • Stance: Precision: +792 Finesse Rating for 30s
  • Stance: Strength: +5% Ranged Damage for 30s
  (Animation is shorter: you fire a blue lightning arrow)
  
  

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage
  
  Great
  

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.


*Traits Updates:

Sturdy Traps: The damage of your traps and snares is increased by 30%.

Spring Loaded Traps: -(Level × 15) Armour Value

Barbed Hindrance: In addition to its normal effect your Barbed Arrow roots your foe for a short time; 4s Root;50% break chance on damage after 1s

Heart of the Bard : A successful use of Bard's Arrow will reset cooldowns of Distracting shot, Dazing blow and Cry of the predator.


*Bonus set :

2 Equipped:
The damage of your traps and snares is increased by 20% and Trap Skills are now instant
3 Equipped:
-30s Trap Skill Cooldowns
Improved Piercing trap effect is now applied to all traps and do not breack the root effect of the traps while it last : [levelx2] shadow damage every 2 seconds for 20 seconds
4 Equipped:
Swift bow and Split shot can be fire on the move
+ [levelx5] moral
Distracting shot, Cry of the predator and Bard arrow : + 10% target miss chance for 20 secondes (cumulative)



5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

7) Ranged Interrupt
Sorry, Hunters will not be getting an additional Interrupt.

Why ? We are a ranged dps class, we should be able to ranged interrupt ! Throw away another of our interrupt and give us a logical one.

8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow)
Unlikely to see significant change here. Induction-less was attempted during beta and it was too problematic to stay around. As for on the move, such a change would need to be paired with a range reduction, or a reduction in the potency of the Hunters slows. This is not a direction we are planning on moving in.

Quickshot MUST be a real quick shot: no induction, on the move but with less damage maybe

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored
If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.

great, restore the duration buff


The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback about are my ideas on Split Shot and Hunters Art, and to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since.

Edit: Just to clarify, things I'm talking about here are potentials for Update 6. Update 5 is very much put to bed at this point.

Ok, these are my suggestions for hunter. Plus : no more big yellow cross when HS is used

And
Improved Fleetness should now activated when you enter Precision stance and remains activate as long as you are in Precision with 5 traits in the Way of The Huntsman line slotted.

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

I see your point but cant really sympathize since as a Warg my best crit on a non-heavy class is 1.3K. Heavy classes there is zero chance for me to ever crit (or dev) above 1K given current Freep Heavy Armor mitigations. However, Champions can easily crit for 2-4K on a fully armored (Shadow Howler) Warg.

Hunters aren't heavy classes so can't see why we should care in these forums. Champ and/or creep forums are that way --->

Anyway, I will be watching this thread.

I can imagine losing a cheap sorce of infamy would be quite disconcerting.

Ok, I realize that I am in the minority of the hunter community when it comes to CC. Of course run dps about 90% of the time, but when it comes to raid trash, I often go CC and trait back for the boss. (As of OD that is) During the days of OD, CC was pretty crucial on T2 since no one could just take the hits of all the mobs, especially the trash leading up to Ivar. During the Beta, CC is necessary for some T2 trash, especially acid wing. Now, I realize that LM and burgs are pretty darn good at cc, but dps is never lacking in my raids, so I often go CC to make the trash go smoother to avoid wipes. So I do utilize it.

In regards to its potency, hunter CC is becoming one of the best whether you realize it or not. I have made a 3rd age CC bow for when I go CC and the legacies are: -evade rating(major), -block rating(major), - distracting shot resist (minor), - distracting cd (minor). Get these maxed out for a CC bow it it looks pretty good for a hunter. With traits we then have a 30s mez on 15s cd with DS (also to add it has a SUPER low chance of being resisted with the legs), 20s fear on 30s cd (25s cd with new hunter set) with Bards Arrow, 5s daze on 50s cd with Dazing Blow (with rapid recovery traited), in combat traps on 30s cd, Rain of thorns on 3m cd, and cry of the predator is pretty situational but great for breaking cc shields in OD for disease wing. This of course disregards all our slows with barbed hindrance, quick shot (in strength), and low cut. What this means is that I can perma cc two mobs (not in the new raid obviously due to resistance of repeated cc :P) and hold a third most of the time if one of them is a beast. But I can easily hold down two, which makes my raids go much cleaner.

Is it necessary, usually not unless we are short on CC, but I like to lead/participate in clean raids with no wipes and hunter cc contributes ALOT to it with OD and later (excluding Draigloch). But we shall see how useful it is in the Tower since CC shields have been replaced with repeated CC immunity. But I will grant that most of the time, the CC line is not used, and I am one of very few hunters that has actually taken the time to create a CC bow, max it out and use it in raids...