Thread: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

Originally Posted by Nuth_KM

I'm going to have to differ with you on this one.... as my hunter has been pretty much relegated to a raid role. In a raid.. if you were the leader, would you take a Hunter to fill a CC role or an LM? If the Hunter can't bring "as good" CC as an LM, I'm taking an LM and asking the hunter to play the DPS role.. or getting a burg to take the hunter slot. He can come darn near close to the ST dps of a hunter, has the ability increase % dmg across the entire group and has amazing ST cc. Add in the FM tricks.. and voila!

Yeah I agree with this to a point also. It isn't really that we lack CC, our CC is actually pretty good when full yellow. It's more that we don't have CC AND ____. LMs have CC and debuffs/power restore/minor heals/etc. Burgs have CC and CJs/debuffs while maintaining high dps. We've got CC and...pretty low dps when we're yellow traited. So, I think that the best fix for trapper would be to either make it downright crazy CC, add a few debuffs or group utility skills to the line, or make it so we can still do comparable dps to red/blue lines while yellow. Out of these options I think adding some debuffs/utility skills would be the best, as with the other two options I can see a lot of disadvantages.

I'll be honest. Only way I'm gonna use ToF regularly for raids is if debuffs are added and if the darn traps aren't so focused on on half the traits, as well as a few other pointless traits (heightened senses, stealthy shot, what the bleep are you doing in a CC line?). Giving us more CC or more damage to balance would make us OP in moors I should think. Burgs have that and the only thing keeping them from face rolling more than 2 creeps at once is their lack of range. If ToF balanced our damage it'd be effective in PvE for sure, but it'd be crazy OP in moors.
This all being said, ToF needs debuffs to be effective, and for the love of god get off the trap trend. They're not useful in raids and often cause more grievance than help. Name the line something else, I don't even care if it's as lame as "The Crowd Controller"

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

7) Ranged Interrupt
Sorry, Hunters will not be getting an additional Interrupt.

8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow)
Unlikely to see significant change here. Induction-less was attempted during beta and it was too problematic to stay around. As for on the move, such a change would need to be paired with a range reduction, or a reduction in the potency of the Hunters slows. This is not a direction we are planning on moving in.

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored
If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.


The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback about are my ideas on Split Shot and Hunters Art, and to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since.

Edit: Just to clarify, things I'm talking about here are potentials for Update 6. Update 5 is very much put to bed at this point.

So this quote was from over 4 months ago and was wondering if there was any progress being made. The last reply I can see that ZC has in the ENTIRE forums was over a month ago in the Rk section. Has ZC been fired and Turbine failed to replace him?

I feel bad for all those that have had ZC or any other developer work on their class and receive nothing but nerfs and skills that aren't necessary.

Please just give us some feedback or tell use you're alive.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.
  
  ----> I like this idea, and if buffing/debuffing traits were added to the hunter, this is how I envision it functioning, as part of a normal dps rotation.
  

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage
  
  ----> If this were changed to what is suggested, I would still never use it. SS might be improved if there was a debuff involved.
  

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

----> Part of the problem is that traiting into Trapper significantly lowers our dps because we aren't traiting our dps traits. In trying to keep up with the dps of our friends, the RK and the Champion, we have very little choice but to trait for the best damage possible. Additionally, our CC is situational and easily broken. While some people can do amazing things with this traitline, it does not add the utility other classes can bring to a raid. I'd take a loremaster any day over a yellow-traited hunter.

What we want is to bring the same amount of utility as the other medium armor classes and other dps classes can bring to a raid. Sometimes straight-up dps is not enough.

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

----> I'm not sure if hunters have been brought up to the curve. We do substantial dps, but that's all we have. Consolidation of legacies would at least allow us to use some of the other incredibly useful legacies to, say, use some other for survivability.

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

----> RKs have 3k effective finesse and very little induction for their big hitter, Epic Conclusion. My poorly geared RK with 1200 will, 650 fate, 4500 finesse and and 0 audacity frequently crits with EC on creeps (with high mitigations) for well over 5k. My hunter with 1900 agility, 400 fate, and 5500ish finesse and 0 audacity devastates for about 5k consistently (I've tried it on multiple targets, not just creeps.) This is why I never use HS in my dps rotation, the induction is too long for very little payback. My Blood Arrow devastates for roughly the same amount with no induction.

7) Ranged Interrupt
Sorry, Hunters will not be getting an additional Interrupt.

----> Wardens have spammable ranged interrupts at 40m range. A ranged interrupt with a reasonable cooldown isn't out of line, imo.


10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored
If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.

----> Lengthening the buff duration would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: Just to clarify, things I'm talking about here are potentials for Update 6. Update 5 is very much put to bed at this point.

*twiddles thumbs*

My concise list of requests includes these:

- The hunter should be given the utility to the raid that the other medium armor classes (Burglar and Warden) can bring. Whether this is the form of buffs/debuffs or not, something needs to change.
- We need a pass over our survivability skills.
- We could use better aggro management skills.
- We need a more viable form of kiting stance. We are one of two classes with required inductions in order to function (loremasters being the other one with frankly better equipped to handle the repercussions of inductions.) Wardens and RKs are ranged and able to move with no penalty to their dps, so I think that this mechanic needs to be examined. If we're so reliant on our dps being used at range, then we need the ability to keep ourselves at range. Otherwise we need better melee and survivability skills.
- We need a pass on how our dps class traits have updated. Some of them, while useful, seem underpowered in comparison with level 75 content.

Originally Posted by Tithias

Make Heightened Senses also give + Stealth Detect without having to use tracking.

should be innate..

Agree with pretty much everything here (although introducing 'another' bubble skill isn't the solution to everything)

Range interrupts? Long overdue, same thing with a decent heal/power management skill.
Agile rejoinder should always have a 100% change to apply a heal of time (that scales) while the legacy only improves duration.

Setting traps should have their animation removed and purge poison should affect the whole fellowship.

So. According to Sapience, Update 7 is nigh at hand.

ZC, care to comment on anything at all? Either Update 7 or (much more likely) RoR? There are 10 more levels coming up this fall, so you've got to have something in the works.

Please check in with an update!

In short:
1-4, 7, 15, 22 and 39. Put me down for a "Like" on these especially.

And no, they are not local lottery numbers... :-p

Originally Posted by Issachar44

So. According to Sapience, Update 7 is nigh at hand.

ZC, care to comment on anything at all? Either Update 7 or (much more likely) RoR? There are 10 more levels coming up this fall, so you've got to have something in the works.

Please check in with an update!

Most of the current problems were brought up BEFORE RoI released or very shortly after. The months of no activity and no communication clearly suggest what to expect in future.

Originally Posted by Fin.

The months of no activity and no communication clearly suggest what to expect in future.

Yeah, my expectations aren't set very high. But I'm still trying the "catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" approach. Can't hurt.

Originally Posted by Issachar44

Yeah, my expectations aren't set very high. But I'm still trying the "catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" approach. Can't hurt.

Sure it can. Can make you look like a sap they can just roll over cause you'll keep saying "please sir, may I have another?"




There are no hunter changes in alpha, fyi.

ZC's last post (March 19th in an advice thread for new Runekeepers...):

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...41#post6057941

It seems we've lost a dev.

ZC...? Are you out there, buddy?

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Sure it can. Can make you look like a sap they can just roll over cause you'll keep saying "please sir, may I have another?"

*shrug* I'm not bothered by the prospect of looking like a sap. And anyway, pouring on the vitriol hasn't produced results either. But I don't want to argue with you about it. We can agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Issachar44

*shrug* I'm not bothered by the prospect of looking like a sap. And anyway, pouring on the vitriol hasn't produced results either. But I don't want to argue with you about it. We can agree to disagree.

No, I didn't mean it that way, I'm sure you're not. What I mean though is if we constantly "take" only what ZC is willing to give us, and state we will politely wait until they deem to get around to us, there is no incentive for them to ever get around to us.

I think we agree on that. We do need to make noise. I'm just partial to the kind of noise that's more like nagging than like a verbal brick through the window.

Originally Posted by Placida

ZC's last post (March 19th in an advice thread for new Runekeepers...):

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...41#post6057941

It seems we've lost a dev.

ZC...? Are you out there, buddy?

I hope not. Whatever the quality of the work he's done in other parts of the game his work on the Hunter has been sub-standard. He simply has no feel or experience for the class and compounds that with a desire to radically change it without being willing to listen to or take criticism. No good can come of that.

As I've said repeatedly, but it remains true, no dev with any real knowledge of the class could have proposed Split Shot and Hunter's Art let alone have squandered precious dev resources on implementing them.

Now that Wardens have been dealt with we are the only class that has not been revamped to meet the new game mechanics. It really is about time a concentrated efort was made to address long-standing and endlessly rehearsed issues.

What disappoints me is that people want a better campfire which will prove useless anyways than making press onwards worth having.

Originally Posted by Witch0King

What disappoints me is that people want a better campfire which will prove useless anyways than making press onwards worth having.

What disappoints me is that people dont see the potential in having a campfire with e.g. herbs/athelas (like Stand at Amon Sul skirmish) that can give fellowship/raid wide buffs such as icpr, resist rating and extra morale.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

What disappoints me is that people dont see the potential in having a campfire with e.g. herbs/athelas (like Stand at Amon Sul skirmish) that can give fellowship/raid wide buffs such as icpr, resist rating and extra morale.

That is one of the many fine suggestions that have been made for ways to take existing hunter elements and update them. I feel that this is the way a wise dev would go.

They'd look at the issues raised and look at what existing features can be updated instead of inventing ever more fanciful things to find a place for on our over-laden quickslots.

Reconsidering Camp Fire in the light of our continued lack of a secondary buffing role is one of those. Making Press Onwards into the kind of heal/defence buff other classes have been given is another. Both of those things have remained essentially unchanged from their inception.

What matters is that the lack of a viable secondary role, survivability and aggro management are dealt with. There have been plenty of great ideas put forward. What it requires is a dev well-versed in the class to come in and adapt hunters to the new world.

I do find it darkly ironic that just as every other class in the game, except the poor Wardens, were getting super-boosts left, right and centre, we had a dev who's starting point was that hunters were OP and needed taking down a peg or two.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

What disappoints me is that people dont see the potential in having a campfire with e.g. herbs/athelas (like Stand at Amon Sul skirmish) that can give fellowship/raid wide buffs such as icpr, resist rating and extra morale.

You would want that instead of an inductionless, on the move heal which restore alot of power & morale..?

Originally Posted by Witch0King

You would want that instead of an inductionless, on the move heal which restore alot of power & morale..?

You would want to find out if there's actually a choice to be made here..?

As I see it there's no way we are going to get an inductionless on the move heal that restore alot of power & morale, it's just not going to happen. Sacrificing a brilliant idea such as campfire buffs is not going to give us an OP skill like that.

Right after RoI and the big changes, and hearing every shred of interviews and the broken promises right after release, I knew it was gonna end like this, with ZC all about runekeepers and no clue about the previous balance of classes in the game and the reasons for it. I soon after deleted all my characters because I knew that with his and the public relations guys arogance in interviews and responses, that this was far more deeper then just asking nicely to change our class. Until those people were fired, yes I said fired, nothing would be done to fix the unbalance that has hit hunters since RoI.

I deleted my characters because I knew that this would never ever be fixed, so I post here today to say, dont take this laziness any longer, spare yourself some unhappy playtime, go to mmorpg.com and find a new game.

Its been about a year now since I control alt delete... And looking back here now a days, I dont regret that decision one bit.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

You would want to find out if there's actually a choice to be made here..?

As I see it there's no way we are going to get an inductionless on the move heal that restore alot of power & morale, it's just not going to happen. Sacrificing a brilliant idea such as campfire buffs is not going to give us an OP skill like that.

Burglar/RK two of the most OP classes.
Both were touched by ZC and lets face it, Hunters was and still is OP in many ways. So just wait and see. if nothing at U7... all hunters are free to begin with another class or GW2.
The waiting part is the worst bit.

Originally Posted by Witch0King

and lets face it, Hunters was and still is OP in many ways. So just wait and see.

Lol.

And btw, RKs aren't OP.

Originally Posted by Witch0King

Hunters was and still is OP in many ways.

Child, please.

Hunters haven't been OP since Moria Book 6. Just because there was six month period in 2011 where good hunters could beat poor to average creeps doesn't make them OP.

But good hunters losing to poor to average creeps, as has been the case since 2008 through half of 2011, and now again in 2012, definately makes them under powered.

Your goggles are showing.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Child, please.

Hunters haven't been OP since Moria Book 6. Just because there was six month period in 2011 where good hunters could beat poor to average creeps doesn't make them OP.

But good hunters losing to poor to average creeps, as has been the case since 2008 through half of 2011, and now again in 2012, definately makes them under powered.

Your goggles are showing.

Your QQ is showing, you probably havent met those hunter ive meet, now baby please, troll somewhere else.

I would just like some communication from Turbine here in the Hunter forums.
It's been what? More than 7 months now since we have had any reply from a Dev.

It would be nice to find out that Turbine has hired a new Hunter dev.
Someone dedicated to JUST the Hunter class and who will communicate with us about changes.

Let ZC continue on as solely the RK dev.


I am losing hope that we will ever hear anything from Turbine again about our class.
Other than that they have decided to delete us from the game. :-(

Originally Posted by Kongas

Now that Wardens have been dealt with we are the only class that has not been revamped to meet the new game mechanics. It really is about time a concentrated efort was made to address long-standing and endlessly rehearsed issues.

Do new game mechanics require hunters to do more than their role of DPS?

Please inform me empirically, as from my experience and knowledge of how the 'new game mechanics' apply to middle earth, there is still no situation in which the hunters role has changed.

Sure hunter's can use a touch-up, what can't?
What I don't get is all the supposed facts that deliver the conclusion that hunters need a major revamp to perform their role.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Do new game mechanics require hunters to do more than their role of DPS?

Please inform me empirically, as from my experience and knowledge of how the 'new game mechanics' apply to middle earth, there is still no situation in which the hunters role has changed.

Sure hunter's can use a touch-up, what can't?
What I don't get is all the supposed facts that deliver the conclusion that hunters need a major revamp to perform their role.

You can read. Read the endless threads and stop trying to be a smart-###.

You know full well what effect the armour changes have had. You know full well what the aggro issues are and you know full well hunters have always had more of a role than 'dps' whatever the hell that is. which we can't do properly any more (see aggro).

You also know full well the impact mitigation changes have had. And you know full well what boosts every other class has had recently.

And you know full well what #### SS and HA are.

Originally Posted by Kongas

You can read. Read the endless threads and stop trying to be a smart-###.

You know full well what effect the armour changes have had. You know full well what the aggro issues are and you know full well hunters have always had more of a role than 'dps' whatever the hell that is. which we can't do properly any more (see aggro).

You also know full well the impact mitigation changes have had. And you know full well what boosts every other class has had recently.

And you know full well what #### SS and HA are.

The aggro issue under my eyes as a tank has been more of a problem with Turbine working tanks aggro generation in the first place. Adaptable tanks can manage, not by perfection, but it's obvious that it was not meant to be easy like in other MMO's.
The armour changes were mean't to make non-heavies squishier to prevent burgs and hunters from tanking end-game content like they were able to do all through Watcher-OD.
The boost to the warden in particular was out of neccesity because they could not perform their role as viably as the other tanks.

SS = Strength stance? If so, I know several hunters who do very well in the line in PvE content. Hunter's Art, from what I know of the skill I will agree, nothing more than a fancy skill.

But apart from the CC, I'm not quite sure what other viable role hunters are supposed to offer by design which is throwing up all this fuss.

Originally Posted by Untg99

The aggro issue under my eyes as a tank has been more of a problem with Turbine working tanks aggro generation in the first place. Adaptable tanks can manage, not by perfection, but it's obvious that it was not meant to be easy like in other MMO's.
The armour changes were mean't to make non-heavies squishier to prevent burgs and hunters from tanking end-game content like they were able to do all through Watcher-OD.
The boost to the warden in particular was out of neccesity because they could not perform their role as viably as the other tanks.

SS = Strength stance? If so, I know several hunters who do very well in the line in PvE content. Hunter's Art, from what I know of the skill I will agree, nothing more than a fancy skill.

But apart from the CC, I'm not quite sure what other viable role hunters are supposed to offer by design which is throwing up all this fuss.

SS = Strength Stance? ROFLMBO


SS = SPLIT SHOT the underpowered useless AOE skill that isn't an AOE skill (read range of effect nerfed in order for Legacy to affect this skill).

Originally Posted by Untg99

The aggro issue under my eyes as a tank has been more of a problem with Turbine working tanks aggro generation in the first place. Adaptable tanks can manage, not by perfection, but it's obvious that it was not meant to be easy like in other MMO's.
The armour changes were mean't to make non-heavies squishier to prevent burgs and hunters from tanking end-game content like they were able to do all through Watcher-OD.
The boost to the warden in particular was out of neccesity because they could not perform their role as viably as the other tanks.

SS = Strength stance? If so, I know several hunters who do very well in the line in PvE content. Hunter's Art, from what I know of the skill I will agree, nothing more than a fancy skill.

But apart from the CC, I'm not quite sure what other viable role hunters are supposed to offer by design which is throwing up all this fuss.

First off, I imagine that most classes have one or two skills that are worthless. I don't really care about SS or HA. Don't like them? Don't use them.

The irony is that I agree with the above post, although you are missing (under-stressing?) the whole point. We ARE supposed to do DPS. That is our role. I am happy with that role. That's why I started a hunter. So what's the fuss you ask? It's that our DPS ability is severely limited due to two factors: lack of aggro-dump abilities and lack of survivability skills.

As you said above: "The boost to the warden in particular was out of neccesity because they could not perform their role as viably as the other tanks". Exactly. We can't perform our role as viably as other DPS roles. That's the heart of the problem. Hunters can out-DPS just about anyone. Then we die. So if new raids (read: new game mechanics) require more than 10 seconds of DPS, we are not as effective as some of the other DPS classes.

Simplest solution available: Change Hunter's Art to become a threat-dump mechanic. Call it Hunter's Deception or something. You'd kill two birds with one stone and everyone would be happy again.

Side note: just to show that I am not all negative, I am really happy with the change to Roots. Adding a ranged DPS component to a popular instance was a nice move.

Originally Posted by Witch0King

Your QQ is showing, you probably havent met those hunter ive meet, now baby please, troll somewhere else.

You're the one trolling. You don't even play a hunter according to your sig, yet here you are telling us how fine they are. Of course, the lies are easy to see through, and your intent is clear. You must be very worried indeed about losing potential easy infamy to put a spotlight on your own skill level like you are. I mean, for a creep to lose to a hunter nowadays, you've gotta be pretty poorly played.

But don't worry, the only ones who give a #### less than you ezmoders are the devs. Your infamy is safe.

I hope thats supposed to be sarcastic...



Rks are not op...I bet a mini could own a Rk in a spar. The only classes i find OP are minis and wardens. Being minis can dps like crazy and just own in the moors. Wardens are OP cause they can self heal* and solo many instances.

Going to the hunters improvements...I would like to see a hunter get a bubble...I would like to see camp fire give icpr/icmr and some other buff weather it be tac/physical mitigation or resistance...The inductions we have with the blue line we have is fine, no need for shorter inductions...I would like to see a skill that gives 10 seconds of no inductions(20 traited, 30 with a legacy)...Another thing is to have some traits moved around and build on the current yellow line. Make it more of a CC or power saving line, while still being able to dps like the red line, maybe a little less dps...also the burg skill, find footing i think its called, hunters should have something like that...hightent sences should be removedand become automatic...
my hunter being 75 i rarely play him any more. I raid on my captain and go into the moors more on him. My hunter as of now is useless. Any one would perfer a champ rather than a hunter. Champs have better dps and are able to survive longer...There was a trait before isen that made PS and BA only cost 2 focus, now its on raid gear, bring back that trait.

I feel hunters have been ignored, Minis have changed, RKs have changed, wardens have been changed.


Sorry if this has been long, but it needs to be read...








*from what i remember...dont know how its changed.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

You're the one trolling. You don't even play a hunter according to your sig, yet here you are telling us how fine they are. Of course, the lies are easy to see through, and your intent is clear. You must be very worried indeed about losing potential easy infamy to put a spotlight on your own skill level like you are. I mean, for a creep to lose to a hunter nowadays, you've gotta be pretty poorly played.

But don't worry, the only ones who give a #### less than you ezmoders are the devs. Your infamy is safe.

I got a lvl 50 hunter whom Im leveling. My two best friends have been a hunter since start. So dont even think you know anything, besides, Im not the one stealthing with BH. Ive never used MT against a solo hunter, but even so. hunters on gladden manage to work through it, so why cant you? I'd say you're the one ezmoding, so stop bothering me ok? have fun.

So, after having quit my hunter and pretty much only playing my warg on weekends, I have thought a bit about the state of hunters and really just in general about the game.

This has slightly changed my opinion on the hunter, because if you think about it, it is in a place where almost every class has been at some point.

Minstrels - Used to be ok dps wise and could do great as healers. In MoM their dps was nerfed to oblivion and it has been buffed back to normal and then some. Now they are pretty much godmode.

LMs - Used to be easymode and could own pretty much anything. Now they are one of the most underpowered PvP classes (Next to hunters)

Burgs - The stealth class has always been in a fairly good and even sometimes OP spot, but they are much squishier as of recently and not as OP as they used to be.

Champs - Used to be a terrible class with a lot of things broken and they have recently been fixed like the Minis

Guards - Never really payed attention to them outside of tanking, but Im fairly sure that they were pretty OP at one point and have been nerfed some in PvP

RKs - Used to be godmode, now they are not even close to the dps that they used to be able to do.

Wardens - Were pretty OP at one point, then they got nerfed/broken a bit I think. Now they are in an ok spot and heals traited are invincible but without dps.

Captains - Are a pain to solo on, used to not be all that good. Now they are pretty OP if they crit and are great as healers.

And now the real issue at hand, the hunters - We used to be top tier dps and a fairly ok class. Then in MoM, we had our super OP 1shot glory days when a hunter was really a force to be reckoned with. Then we got a major nerf bat in an update and have recovered a bit, but not much has changed recently except some trash band-aid skills that dont even cover the wound.

My point is every class has pretty much had their ups and downs. However, I am NOT AT ALL saying that hunters are in a good place. We do need a fix and some attention from the devs. Its true that for a long time we have been in a bad place, but we arent any worse off than some other things with this game that need fixing (PvP anyone?)

Unfortunately I do not trust the developers of this game to step up and give us what we want. They just want to make money off of our stupidity. Therefore, I have preordered GW2, and have enjoyed the beta weekend way more than I do LOTRO so I will probly not come back and dust off my hunter even if Turbine does try to fix things.

~Kazniir/Dogwillhunt

Originally Posted by tongra

First off, I imagine that most classes have one or two skills that are worthless. I don't really care about SS or HA. Don't like them? Don't use them.

The irony is that I agree with the above post, although you are missing (under-stressing?) the whole point. We ARE supposed to do DPS. That is our role. I am happy with that role. That's why I started a hunter. So what's the fuss you ask? It's that our DPS ability is severely limited due to two factors: lack of aggro-dump abilities and lack of survivability skills.

As you said above: "The boost to the warden in particular was out of neccesity because they could not perform their role as viably as the other tanks". Exactly. We can't perform our role as viably as other DPS roles. That's the heart of the problem. Hunters can out-DPS just about anyone. Then we die. So if new raids (read: new game mechanics) require more than 10 seconds of DPS, we are not as effective as some of the other DPS classes.

Simplest solution available: Change Hunter's Art to become a threat-dump mechanic. Call it Hunter's Deception or something. You'd kill two birds with one stone and everyone would be happy again.

Side note: just to show that I am not all negative, I am really happy with the change to Roots. Adding a ranged DPS component to a popular instance was a nice move.

I'm all for hunters getting a threat dump, I would have no problem with that.

A lot of the hunters I have associated with are pretty happy with the position they are at as far as class goes though.
The tanks (despite stress) can generally hold sufficient aggro, and they are able to do the neccesary damage needed to complete raids.

I would have called Split shot useless from it's conception, but that's still likely the only thing apart from threat management resources that the class needs to perform it's role.

Originally Posted by Untg99

I'm all for hunters getting a threat dump, I would have no problem with that.

A lot of the hunters I have associated with are pretty happy with the position they are at as far as class goes though.
The tanks (despite stress) can generally hold sufficient aggro, and they are able to do the neccesary damage needed to complete raids.

I would have called Split shot useless from it's conception, but that's still likely the only thing apart from threat management resources that the class needs to perform it's role.

I would say most hunters are begrudgingly accepting over their position right now. We either have realized that Devs do not care, or just have accepted our lot and just grumble now. The ones on the forums are the ones who care the most, and we're pushing for a change, but that's hard to come by .

Aggro management would be amazing right now . If turbine gave us a "fix" or a new skill for that in U7 and nothing else, I'd be happy. Some people would hate me for compromising like that, but I'll take what I can get (even though its not coming anyways).

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs+
agree - 60 icpr will not be game breaking and it will be nice to share something with fellows

2) Hunter's Art is changed
agree - since I'm in Precision most of the time I don't use current version at all. For S:E reduce threat, S:P -5% induction times, S:S I would leave as it is.

3) Split Shot is changed
agree - range have to be increased to at least 5m. I don't actually want this to be too high, so we don't have to worry about breaking mezzes.

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
no for crit, yes for power legacies - i just assume that consolidating crit legacies could result in reducing their potency and I want for them to stay at 25%

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
agree - blindside should be made immediate skill

14) Hunter version of the Black Arrow's Skirmisher Stance
agree - im don't play PvP much, but for others who do I see the need for this

17) Buff Cry of the Predator (non-pottable and/or +miss chance)
agree - i think this should work for all monstrers, following LM/burg changes

18) Strength of the Earth's pre-EotD's magnitude is restored
agree - i don't use this skill unless I'm out of combat and want to speed up my power regeneration. In general I don't like skills that force you to stop from hurting things. Change this to single use which apply self buff instead of channel.

20) Return Desperate Flight to the Ettenmoors
agree but ... - it was said many times, DF in EM should work like sprint, set run speed to 125% for 15 seconds. Imo it should also give you 15 seconds CC immunity. If you also add 1.6k bauble to this and make it work like that in PvE world, it will give people some surivabilty they were looking for. Cooldown should be 10 minutes with possiblity to get 5 minutes off it with legacy.

21) Hunter Bubble, either on its own, or when SotE or Press On are activated
agree - said that in 20, it could be added to DF

25) Include Split Shot in the Fast Draw trait
agree

33) Improve/update/change Camo (increased stealth level and/or add movement)
agree - hunters should be able to move in stealth! not at normal speed ofc, but with -50% we should be able to

34) Heightened senses trait should be removed and the bonus should become innate
agree

Originally Posted by Witch0King

I got a lvl 50 hunter whom Im leveling. My two best friends have been a hunter since start. So dont even think you know anything, besides, Im not the one stealthing with BH. Ive never used MT against a solo hunter, but even so. hunters on gladden manage to work through it, so why cant you? I'd say you're the one ezmoding, so stop bothering me ok? have fun.

"Some of my best friends are hunters?" lol

I guess if you are leveling a hunter and you have him alllllll the way to 50, I need to apologize. You're right you are an expert at the class.