Thread: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

I think it's telling that not one person has chimed in yet to say Trapper is good.

Originally Posted by Smugo

I tried running ToF in Gortheron T2 today. While I could lock one mob down easy, anger and genus specific CC made anything more near impossible. Since we had no LM it worked out well enough, but given the option I'd pick a good LM over myself any day.

I actually did Gortheron T2 Hm this past weekend to get us warmed up for Tower since Gotheron is a mechanics driven fight and just have fun. Anyway, you should be able to hold down two even with anger debuff if you have a CC bow bc Distracting shot's cd is halfed. Also use the cry of the predator and dazing blow (with trait to put in on a 50s cd) to wipe the anger debuff. distracting shot and bards arrow can be used to lock them down. it is highly dependent on the mob type if you want to lock down 2 though.

In response to others, I agree LM's have an advantage, but I often go CC if we are short on LM's. Honestly, I would rather take a fully geared hunter that knows what he is doing than pug an LM because we are one short...but most of the time this is not the case.

Originally Posted by kballard

In response to others, I agree LM's have an advantage, but I often go CC if we are short on LM's. Honestly, I would rather take a fully geared hunter that knows what he is doing than pug an LM because we are one short...but most of the time this is not the case.

I fully agree with this, and as I pointed out earlier it's unlikely to be the case often enough to matter much which is why most of the ToF stuff is likely to be rather irrelevant anyway except to the small group who like playing strategy solo stuff, and the few who who through boredom or lack of an LM just want to play a different way.

I dunno, I'm not playing LOTRO currently (nor anything else really, just busy) I just think largely for me I'm at a point where time is at too much of a premium and I'm getting used to the idea of not grouping, which largely I thank ZC for because while the hunter isn't/wasn't broken useless, it just lacked any woohoo factor, and standing next to nearly any other class it seemed like we were the only ones standing still.

I don't think fixing ToF will change any of that and while HA and Spshot fixes will go a long way to feeling like the class has finally been paid some meaningful attention, ultimately this was ALL said in beta ROI, here we are saying "told ya so" at update 5, being placated with probably in update 6 we will address it. To me that's just not good enough really, but it's summer here so I'll see how things go in the winter.

Ding! Split shot... Move Barbed Hindrance to split shot. Leave everything else regarding the skill as is. You're welcome.

As for me, three things top my list to delete from the taskbar entirely.

Bright campfire. Just do away with it or make it an emote. Just what does it bring to the table again?
Default trap. Ditto. We will either need to make or purchase or maybe they could drop occasionally.
Split shot. lose it or do something with it that makes it worth using.

Im thinking there maybe could be a couple more that could just be dropped from the hunter repertriore (did I spell that wrong) to allow for some of the really nifty ideas put forth in this thread. Who do I call to get the ball rolling?

Originally Posted by Eckenbrand

It's like saying "Champions shouldn't be able to Tank because there's not one situation where a Champion needs to Tank instead of more DPS"

Now go through the entire list of classes.

By your logic, we should only have 1 tank class, 1 healer class, and a bunch of different DPS classes, since DPS, apparently, is the answer to everything, since



Yeah, right.

Nicely said. I agree that the QQing about ToF is a little ridiculous. It's our secondary role, of course we shouldn't be as good at it as an LM. Also we can both DPS and CC at the same time better than an LM can, so we really don't have a lot to be upset about IMO. Do I use ToF? Not often. But I sure do when we only have one LM in OD wing that needs two CC classes.

ToF needs to be more utilitarian if the devs ever want us to use it regularly. Inductions needs lowered BPE (keep resist of course) ranged stun skills needs to stop, our ability to buff should be better than it is or it simply won't be used unless you're short on burgs and LMs.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

Can someone explain to me in plain english what this means?

To me, the problem with Blind Side is always that it needs to wait until the skill queue of the previous skill is fully done before activating, thus half the time my interrupt is late. Wouldn't changing this from "Melee" to "Immediate Skill" fix this?

Currently the interrupt is part way through the animation, so you have to wait for the skill to go off, and then wait for the intterupt. With it at the beginning you just have to wait for the skill to go off. It's still not perfect, but it will be an improvement on how it is currently.

Able to set your own camp anywhere for the cost of gold for a hunter to return to.

Originally Posted by Ezial

Able to set your own camp anywhere for the cost of gold for a hunter to return to.

How about :
Add Hunter port to Celondim or Duillond?
Add Hunter port to Misty Mts.
Add Hunter port to Lothlorien.
Add Hunter port to Trollshaw (not Rivendell)?

Originally Posted by LadyDena

How about :
Add Hunter port to Celondim or Duillond? Yea maybe, Thorins gate is good enough though, imo.
Add Hunter port to Misty Mts. Rivendell
Add Hunter port to Lothlorien. Mirkwood port , take the boat right over
Add Hunter port to Trollshaw (not Rivendell)? Rivendell is good enough.

..............................

I would like to have Barbed Hindrance moved from Yellow to Blue line.
And Rapid Recovery from Blue to Yellow line.

Makes more sense to me, I though that Trapper is for CC/Corruption removal/Support etc. With Rapid Recovery you can use Dazing Blow more often. On the other hand, Huntsmen need to slow better with their Bleed damage skill.

i would like SotE in move. it was survival.

(edit)
Sorry for long post, didn't realize I went that long winded
(/edit)
After reading the first few pages, and skimming to the end (hot topic here really).

I (while not remembering the numbers) like the idea of improving HA (i only use in endurance stance when i'm royally screwed for power--which is very rare). The animation is too long for pratical use, and the bonuses are quite lacking (+10% damage per use S:S isn't bad but duration too short for pratical use).

Split shot has promise, but even in Skirm raids with 2 tanks holding everything while standing on top of one another rarely hits more than 2 targets (with +AoE legacy). So increasing the target area would be nice. As I suggested on a previous post (read rant) make the range/# of hits vary with distance. If you target is 1m from you, and you can hit 4 targets with SS, it becomes 4 hits on 1 target. If target is @ 20m range, AOE = ~5m, and # of hits per target ranges from 1-[Max # targets/2] based on # of targets in area (after all, the arrows have spread out some from being shot). If target is @ 40m (max range), AOE= 10m with only 1 hit per target (face it your 4 arrows shot from your bow at once are now spread in a wide arc). Is a change like this possible, I doubt it. Would it really amp the value of SS, yes--possibly to the point of OP, but we can all dream right?

(random thought)
change Shot through the Heart to ADD a high DoT/Second (not pulses/ X seconds) on a Crit, with .5% increase of DoT with Dev...after all, shooting something in the heart is a wound that bleeds a hell of a lot. (fatal in most cases)


Hunter Heal--we have 4 heals, a Pot, Press Onward, ISotE, and Agile Rejoinder.
1) can't change the functionality of a Pot.....
2) Press Onward--if you're using this, you're pretty much up a creek, and are probably gonna die due to an interrupted induction.. Fix: remove induction, or reduce induction and make un-interruptable.
3) Even with Legacy and Earthborn this isn't a very good heal, would prefer to see this skill become an Instant w/ over time bonus much like the Captain's Rallying Cry with Now for Wrath traited.
4)Agile Rejoinder--would like to see this provide a much larger instant (500-1000) with same HoT (~120/pulse)

New suggestion (maybe)

will this one be liked, probably not, but why not give us a larger assortment of oils, allowing for more damage types (currenlty 3 max--fire, light, and whatever we've put on our bows through scrolls)

Which reminds me... the new skills don't reflect the change in damage type that oils apply. Recently the devs fixed Barbed arrow so it applies a DoT in line with any applied oil, but the new skills will always do damage in line with the bow, ignoring any applied oils.

Other comments.

I saw many comments about wanting a boosted evade with a different skill. We have a legacy that boosts parry AND evade with the use of Swift Stroke. I wonder if it would be possible to make swift stroke a ranged/melee skill based on range from target, where if it becomes a ranged attack, the legacy only buffs Evade, yet it remains unchanged if it is a melee skill. It would give us another ranged attack, and a bit more defence.

Some miss the days of Huntanks. I personally don't believe the hunter was ever meant to be a tank, can we take a hit or 2, yes, but out and out tank, no. We are a DPS class after all.

A final thought: I've seen many expressions of displeasure towards ZC, and I would like to point out (though i'm not happy with the dev team in general right now) that ZC and the other Devs are working the priority list:

1) Do what WB tells them to do [may be swapped with #2]
2) Do what Turbine tells them to do [may be swapped with #1]
3) answer the community.

- Fix Hunter's Art. I never use the skill. Animation is long and ugly... disrupts combat flow and aggro starts before you even have an arrow out. The ICPR buff is ridiculous when you waste more power using the skill then the power returns...

- Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power

- Agile Rejoinder always gives heal. Rework the legacy.

- Remove or decrease Distracting Shot induction when full trapper. The induction time makes it difficult to position mobs in Orthanc.

+likes to numbers 2, 3, 4, and 23. Oh, and buff agile rejoinder's heal. Something like a total heal of 1.25k or around there (HoT is just fine, thank you)
That's all, gents.

What I would like, is for Strength of the Earth to actually return some power to me again. With the legacy, currently set at +25% morale, I have 116 Power/sec for five seconds and 145 Morale/sec for five seconds. That's 580 Power, and 725 if I'm lucky enough to be able to stand still long enough to use it.

I get 1827-2435 Morale and 1136.3-1515 Power from Press Onward every em 52s (With my legacy at -68s CD).

That means for every 2 Strength of the Earths, I could just use one Press Onward, because at least if it fires off, I get the full effects of the skill (and a bit more morale then SotE, too if I'm up the creek with no paddle and a healer is down).

I mean, I get that it's a Legendary trait, so it should be Legendary, but SotE is pretty useless to me right now, especially since all the new raids require me to move around so often, and instantly.

(I Also, btw, with the legacy maxed out, get 769.6 Power every 3 minutes for Intent Concentration).

I'm honestly considering the worth of SotE now, and if it should even be used in combat.

Originally Posted by keikii

What I would like, is for Strength of the Earth to actually return some power to me again. With the legacy, currently set at +25% morale, I have 116 Power/sec for five seconds and 145 Morale/sec for five seconds. That's 580 Power, and 725 if I'm lucky enough to be able to stand still long enough to use it.

I get 1827-2435 Morale and 1136.3-1515 Power from Press Onward every em 52s (With my legacy at -68s CD).

That means for every 2 Strength of the Earths, I could just use one Press Onward, because at least if it fires off, I get the full effects of the skill (and a bit more morale then SotE, too if I'm up the creek with no paddle and a healer is down).

I mean, I get that it's a Legendary trait, so it should be Legendary, but SotE is pretty useless to me right now, especially since all the new raids require me to move around so often, and instantly.

(I Also, btw, with the legacy maxed out, get 769.6 Power every 3 minutes for Intent Concentration).

I'm honestly considering the worth of SotE now, and if it should even be used in combat.

Pretty much every skill in your post besides intent concentration is useless.

Originally Posted by Thraxz1982

Pretty much every skill in your post besides intent concentration is useless.

I actually use Press Onward often enough to justify equipping the trait. If there is a massive aoe, like in Saruman, and healers are being a bit stressed already, I'll use it to help them. And it's good for power too, restores about half of it. it make take 4s, but I rather lose 4s on dps to get more power, then to wait for an LM, or wait for it to regen on it's own or wait for power pots to come off CD.

It's really situational, you just have to learn when to use it. At least, that's just my point of view.
I also use Intent Concentration and beneath care more often for power then for their intended use.

Originally Posted by keikii

I actually use Press Onward often enough to justify equipping the trait. If there is a massive aoe, like in Saruman, and healers are being a bit stressed already, I'll use it to help them. And it's good for power too, restores about half of it. it make take 4s, but I rather lose 4s on dps to get more power, then to wait for an LM, or wait for it to regen on it's own or wait for power pots to come off CD.

It's really situational, you just have to learn when to use it. At least, that's just my point of view.
I also use Intent Concentration and beneath care more often for power then for their intended use.

This is odd to me. Do you often run without a captain? If so, wow, you run through power like crazy. What's your build like? My curiosity is piqued.

I've yet to run into a power issue after specifically telling the LMs to never EVER give me power unless it's on something like Ivar, where you'd have to burn something down fast. I never have to use anything but pots when I've got a captain so I'm curious as to what you're doing different.

Hunter's Art in Enduance Stance usually costs nearly as much power as it gives

Originally Posted by Thraxz1982

This is odd to me. Do you often run without a captain? If so, wow, you run through power like crazy. What's your build like? My curiosity is piqued.

I've yet to run into a power issue after specifically telling the LMs to never EVER give me power unless it's on something like Ivar, where you'd have to burn something down fast. I never have to use anything but pots when I've got a captain so I'm curious as to what you're doing different.

Well he mentioned the Saruman fight in Tower of Orthanc, and in case you haven't been there yet, you're dpsing hard for several minutes in-combat each phase (4 Saru-clones at over 300k each). Even with 1400ish icpr and all power restores, I experienced power issues in that fight. Perhaps it wouldn't be that bad if you run in Endurance, or settle in for a comfortable skill rotation, but I like to pull out all stops for a fight like that.

Originally Posted by MorphenVanyarion

Well he mentioned the Saruman fight in Tower of Orthanc, and in case you haven't been there yet, you're dpsing hard for several minutes in-combat each phase (4 Saru-clones at over 300k each). Even with 1400ish icpr and all power restores, I experienced power issues in that fight. Perhaps it wouldn't be that bad if you run in Endurance, or settle in for a comfortable skill rotation, but I like to pull out all stops for a fight like that.

I have done in that fight, I didn't have problems. Which explains my curiosity.

well, assuming traited blue... the biggest power draw would be spamming rain of arrows. it costs 140ish power with a power tome and focus power legacy on your bow, compared to 90ish power for a pen shot. it's the most logical explanation i can come up with ...

Heart Seeker is a trash skill imo.

I roll with Improved Fletness. Lesser, but Faster.
Using HS each 5min (Is this right?) I can get sometimes 5k crit-7k devs (I love when it hits 2k -.-) dmg.

(Well if u trait Cool-Burn, use legacies and bla bla I know someone will say 'Hey I can hit 14k with my HS')

But look now what make me 'sigh'. My IPS can hit 1k non-crit till 3k devs and my BA can reach 5k devs. (Even more on Red Line)

Now I ask you 'For which reason I would stop 2-3s to cast such a worthless skill?'

Sure seems like EVERY OTHER SKILL we have crits and devs a LOT more often then Heart Seeker, almost as if the skill itself has a hidden negative to-crit percentage (Which, it REALLY wouldn't surprise me if it did)

Originally Posted by EricStone

Sure seems like EVERY OTHER SKILL we have crits and devs a LOT more often then Heart Seeker, almost as if the skill itself has a hidden negative to-crit percentage (Which, it REALLY wouldn't surprise me if it did)

This may be the case, or not. We will never know since ZC is playing Silent Bob with us.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

<snip>

Just to clarify, things I'm talking about here are potentials for Update 6. Update 5 is very much put to bed at this point.

I'm a bit disappointed that "potentials" turned out to be "not reallys" for Update 6.

A lot of the suggestions in this thread are repeated in the current thread soliciting suggested skills for all classes. Hope at least a couple of these ideas get implemented for RoR.

Odd too that some of the things here, and in other threads as suggestions for hunters wound up in the RK update:

20% movement increase
Trait that gives morale, armor and crit protection
better aggro control
increased group utility

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Odd too that some of the things here, and in other threads as suggestions for hunters wound up in the RK update:

20% movement increase
Trait that gives morale, armor and crit protection
better aggro control
increased group utility

Maybe they got added to the wrong class by mistake??

Originally Posted by Issachar44

A lot of the suggestions in this thread are repeated in the current thread soliciting suggested skills for all classes. Hope at least a couple of these ideas get implemented for RoR.

My response:

Class: Hunter


Name 3 things about your class you feel could be improved.
1. Survivability - We are one of the squishiest DPS classes (medium armour + no self-heals)
2. Trapper of Foes trait line - The only ToF trait I ever equip is Barbed Hindrance. The others don't contribute to the Hunter's DPS role like the other lines, and the CC role is rarely needed due to the presence of LMs and Burglars, who provide much better CC than Hunters while simultaneously being able to perform additional roles. Revamp/retool this to be actually viable CC without affecting DPS output, find a new secondary role for Hunters, or make it into a third DPS trait line such that Hunters are the best single-target DPS in the game hands down, but lacking in utility besides DPS.
3. Threat - We need a genuine threat dump. Beneath Care is not this. Neither is sitting in Endurance Stance and spamming Quick Shot. Something similar to the Runekeeper's Calming Verse, which also gives -10% Power costs, would be nice.

What skills do you feel are underpowered or of little value to your class? Please limit your answer to 3. Briefly explain why you feel this way.
1. Split Shot - I used this skill twice after it was introduced before promptly removing it from my bar. The tiny range combined with the tiny damage, plus the induction, makes this pretty useless.
2. Bright Campfire - The numbers on this are inconsistent with level 75 Morale and Power pools. What I would love to see the Bright Campfire turn into is an in-combat power-regenerating version of the Rune of Restoration. Instead of healing Morale, it would give Power over time. This would give Hunters some additional utility in both solo and group settings, and would address our constant power issues.
3. Hunter's Art - Another skill that I rarely use. The long animation, combined with the low damage (relative to PS or Blood Arrow), and the rather weak buffs it gives make it not worth using in a DPS rotation.

What skills do you think could be added to your class to help you better perform your role in groups or improve your solo performance? Please limit your answer to 3 skills and explain why you feel this way. Also include how you see the skill being used (solo or group play).
1. A genuine Threat dump.
2. Some form of self-heal or bubble.
3. A power-regen that doesn't require a legendary trait or puts us out of the action for the length of time that Strength of the Earth does. To compare to the RK again, something along the lines of Self-Motivation would be nice.

If you were limited to only one of your nine suggestions above , which single suggestion do you feel is most important for your class?
Survivability - although I think improving Hunters' ability to CC and DPS at the same time, Threat output, and Power consumption would help address the issue of survivability indirectly as well. In particular, I hope my suggestion about Bright Campfire gets considered, as it seems like a fairly reasonable addition to a class lacking in utility outside of raw DPS.

I think your suggestions are pretty good, but I did want to comment on ToF. I don't think it's really a lack of CC that hurts the trait line...I'm able to CC nearly as well as an LM or a burg when traited full yellow. However, that is all I can do when traited yellow, my dps takes a good 30-50% hit. LMs can debuff/hand out power, and burgs can dps/debuff while still doing CC so they are much more desirable for that role.

Originally Posted by Sephollos

I don't think it's really a lack of CC that hurts the trait line...I'm able to CC nearly as well as an LM or a burg when traited full yellow. However, that is all I can do when traited yellow, my dps takes a good 30-50% hit. LMs can debuff/hand out power, and burgs can dps/debuff while still doing CC so they are much more desirable for that role.

Excellent point. I've changed my original post. Thanks for pointing that out.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Odd too that some of the things here, and in other threads as suggestions for hunters wound up in the RK update:

20% movement increase
Trait that gives morale, armor and crit protection
better aggro control
increased group utility

And I just bet all these traits or skills would come in when traited yellow.

Almost forgotten about this thread. If there really are no changes in update 6 for hunters, the least ZC can do is to communicate the reason for the change in plans. It's cruel to get our hopes up like that and then sit on it and do nothing.

Make Heightened Senses also give + Stealth Detect without having to use tracking.

Originally Posted by Placida

My response:

Class: Hunter

-Snip-

I love your suggestions!

Originally Posted by Luth'

Heart Seeker is a trash skill imo.

I roll with Improved Fletness. Lesser, but Faster.
Using HS each 5min (Is this right?) I can get sometimes 5k crit-7k devs (I love when it hits 2k -.-) dmg.

(Well if u trait Cool-Burn, use legacies and bla bla I know someone will say 'Hey I can hit 14k with my HS')

But look now what make me 'sigh'. My IPS can hit 1k non-crit till 3k devs and my BA can reach 5k devs. (Even more on Red Line)

Now I ask you 'For which reason I would stop 2-3s to cast such a worthless skill?'

It is the only skill you have that can touch a BA in the moors with moving target up.... sorry am a moors junkie.

Tydalmir

ZC, here's an invitation to return to this thread.

(You probably have more than enough ideas to chew on from the official class update thread, but we'd like to have your comments, so this thread is a better place to re-open discussion.)

Some more thoughts on the top suggestions:

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs

Most suggestions have focused on upping the numbers, but I recall someone making this really cool suggestion: add situationally useful benefits to the campfire, such as increased fear and shadow resistance. I heartily support that idea, since it would add both flavor and utility to the skill.

2) Hunter's Art is changed

The one suggestion about this that I've really liked is: make it not-an-attack. If HA could be used as part of pre-combat prep, I'd use it even if nothing else were changed.

3) Split Shot is changed

There have been lots of complaints about this skill's low damage. I say: keep the damage low, and add (or trait-add) some kind of effect, preferably a small debuff. That would be just one more potential contribution a hunter could make to groups (debuff the mobs surrounding the tank).

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line

It actually doesn't bother me that hunters have to choose either top-tier DPS -or- CC...as long as the CC is very effective. We don't need to be as good as LMs, but yellow-traited hunters should be extremely viable in a group support role.

Another thought. I sort of regard the three hunter trait lines as representing increasing degrees of complexity in playing the class: red for "simple" (DPS focus only), blue for "moderate" complexity and yellow for "advanced" (additional options to play with). Is that a useful model? If so, would you bear it in mind when considering how to redesign the trait lines?


Here's hoping for another response from ZC. (Please try to keep the thread civil, folks. It's been a really good thread so far.)

Originally Posted by Issachar44

......
It actually doesn't bother me that hunters have to choose either top-tier DPS -or- CC...as long as the CC is very effective. We don't need to be as good as LMs, but yellow-traited hunters should be extremely viable in a group support role.

I'm going to have to differ with you on this one.... as my hunter has been pretty much relegated to a raid role. In a raid.. if you were the leader, would you take a Hunter to fill a CC role or an LM? If the Hunter can't bring "as good" CC as an LM, I'm taking an LM and asking the hunter to play the DPS role.. or getting a burg to take the hunter slot. He can come darn near close to the ST dps of a hunter, has the ability increase % dmg across the entire group and has amazing ST cc. Add in the FM tricks.. and voila!