Thread: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Many of you arent familiar with Zombie Columbus i assume......if there is one dev you really want to have in your corner to overhaul the hunter, its him. Nothin is guaranteed but...your chances of having a better(read: godmode) class go way up w/ him around.

As the countless happy, clappy threads since his last efforts testify.

Originally Posted by Kongas

As the countless happy, clappy threads since his last efforts testify.

Patience, young padawan.

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Patience, young padawan.

Sorry, the 'Trust ZC' ship sailed so long ago it had time hit an iceberg and spawn a couple of hit movies.

Merciful shot is rarely used due to the high focus cost, need for target to be at half health, and the poor damage ratio compared to blood arrow and pen shot. This skill needs a major overhaul to greatly increase damage or to lower the focus cost.

Remove heightened senses tracking should be innate by level 60!

Bards and distracting shot should be immediate skills in TOF.

Endurance stance should buff our armor by 50%.
Melee skills and damage need to be revamped I'd like to see some significant increases if you are going to have so much cc reductions do to pots and skills in pvmp.

If someone can disarm me then I should be able to disable a swing or a spell from an arrow impact from ranged as well.

As for trusting ZC we asked and basically begged him to look at these problems before ROI was released and not only did he ignore our requests he decided to take a few shots at the hunter community in another class forum. A lot of good will went out the door, so I will not be holding my breath. All we needed was a few tweaks from last book, but what we got was a complete restructuring of the class when none was needed.

Remove 1st QS induction, everyone after is .5s

Ranged Interrupt that IS NOT a stun, fear, daze. Like something called blunt arrow, that is a 2 focus shot on like a 15 second cd. Make it a very fast still with little to no animation because it is an interrupt.

Remove Split shot and HA or change it completely.

Thats all.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Estranger

2) Low cut always removes a slow without the need for PVP gear - 2 Like

...

6) Improved Focus is changed - 1 like

...

10) Strength of the Earth's pre-EotD's magnitude is restored -1 Like

...

16) Scale Heartseeker and Shot Through The Hear - 5 like

...

23) Buff Stances Strength and Endurance to compete with the focus generation & Crit Multiplier of Precision

24) Find the Path works In Combat - 3 Like

...

27) Make an Inductionless Heartseeker

28) Double Out of Combat runspeed of Find the Path

29) Hunter Bubble, either on its own, or when SotE or Press On are activated - 2 Like

30) Give us a trait that will temporarily increase our ranged distance

Most of the suggestions were legitimate in my opinion, though if we got all of them we would be WAY OP. Regardless, the one's quoted above are quite unreasonable if you think of where it would put the hunters relative to other classes...

The only place we usually need to remove slows is the moors, so pvp gear makes sense for that...

I honestly have no idea what is wrong with IF, its a free +25% crit chance and mult at the beginning of fights...

SotE was WAY OP a while ago. I gave a full power bar back in like 5s, though I loved it, it did need a nerf (though it was nerfed more than I thought it would be)

Scale HS??? It hits crazy hard. I was just messing around with a cappy and dev well over 20k (did have OB). By myself in real gameplay i am seeing 7-10k devs in moors (depends on class and rank) and 10-13k devs in raids (when I have no OB or 2arms sad day). I think it hits plenty hard enough, but that is just me. Though appreciate the nostalgia of Book 6 hunters lol. That said, I admit STtH needs to be scaled badly.

I agree strength needs A) damage increased to compete with precision or B) THREAT added back (I miss my hunter tank). Endurance however, is not supposed to hit as hard...It is to save power and keep threat down?

FtP in combat...HAHA hunters would run way too fast for the moors, maybe take the suggestion that add a sprint buff to NH (that makes sense...short, descent cd, fits the name...lol). (To prove my point if I had a permanent +21% in combat run speed, I would solo Fear boss of OD cuz i would keep IFS up and kite haha +31% ftw)

Inductionless HS...WHATTTT? See previous statement concerning HS.

Double FtP? That would give the fellow 42%...that is approaching mount speed. Maybe 30 max. Though I think it is fine.

Hunter bubble...haha jumping on the champ bandwagon...we shouldn't need a bubble, that is what the healers are for. Though I agree more morale was be good. Next gear set?

More ranged distance lol. You realize we would be able to exploit soooo many things haha. Nothing could hit us at that range.

Just my personal critiques. Otherwise, I like all of the others...(is that allowed).

My votes go for:

Originally Posted by Estranger

7) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power

8) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation

9) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored

15) Include Split Shot in the Fast Draw trait - 1 like

18) Ranged Interrupt - 3 like

19) Barbed Arrow bleed duration returned to pre-EotD level -

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Many of you arent familiar with Zombie Columbus i assume......if there is one dev you really want to have in your corner to overhaul the hunter, its him. Nothin is guaranteed but...your chances of having a better(read: godmode) class go way up w/ him around.

My faith in ZC died long ago. If ZC is so good, well I hate to see what truly bad is.

Originally Posted by Estranger

2) Low cut always removes a slow without the need for PVP gear

3) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs


7) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power

8) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation

9) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored

10) Strength of the Earth's pre-EotD's magnitude is restored
11) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line

12) Give hunters either true Top Tier DPS or a larger support role
14) Additional Return to Camp anchors

16) Scale Heartseeker and Shot Through The Hear -

18) Ranged Interrupt

20) Allow us to use Quick Shot on the move
22) Hunter version of the Black Arrow's Skirmisher Stance

23) Buff Stances Strength and Endurance to compete with the focus generation & Crit Multiplier of Precision

42) Provide hunters with increased base morale

All liked.

Also

a/ If a hunter isn't in melee range of any mobs, they get a bonus to ranged damage on mobs that aren't aggroed on that hunter. Essentially, if nothing is jogging your elbows, and the target is concentrating on someone else, they're easier to hit. This gives hunters a boost to dps in fellowships, without affecting solo play, which should make it easier to keep both balanced.
b/ For an alternative class item, reusable traps. This would be in addition to the current books, effectively giving the hunter a third trap skill of their choice, if they want to give up the benefits the books give. Reusable traps would probably get more use than the current consumables.
c/ A bonus to crit chance when firing from stealth.

Updated. Sometime today I'm going to consolidate and reformat the list. Unless there are any strong (and reasonable lol) objections, I'm going to drop off some of the more specific ideas and change them to very general and based specifically on the skills that currently exist.

Originally Posted by Estranger

2) Low cut always removes a slow without the need for PVP gear - 4 Like

3) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs - 15 like

4) Hunter's Art is changed - 12 likes

18) Ranged Interrupt - 8 like

26) Return Direct Flight to the Ettenmoors - 3 Like

32) Remove cross-hairs on Heartseeker

33) Needful Haste provides a sprint - 2 Like

41) Make Cry of the Predator non-pottable- 4 Like

47) Poison Cure animation is faster, and done on the move

48) Improve Camo to +3 Stealth and allow us to move - 1 Like

Admittedly, my focus in game is on moors play, and I don't want to chime in about OP creeps or UP freeps, even hunters. I have yet to max level and gear up to see what post-RoI PvMP looks like, so it would be difficult to say what is specifically needed. That said, it's doesn't seem that there is much debate that hunters, while perhaps viable in their role in PvMP, are considered a less-favorable 1v1 candidate, perhaps the least of all. While this is likely to be true of *some* class, it hardly seems like design would idealize such a hierarchy. As such, it would behoove the class to achieve perhaps some better form of survivability in those situations (which was also true pre-RoI). I don't think DPS or morale boosts are the best route--probably both likely the quickest route to OP, and the latter specifically (morale boost), may not be consistent with the lore of the character. As agility is the hunter's claim to fame, it seems more [dare I say] Legolas-like to be more slippery than hardy with morale and mitigation. If the goal (after being jumped/closed on) is to get back to range, I would hope for just a touch more to help make that happen, not a lot. Given that all our CC is pottable by creeps, even such a case (or a resist) still might offer a little escape with a speed boost, for example, to low cut; or perhaps some sort of tumble/sprint bound to dazing blow. Something that would have little effect in group (both PvMP or PvE) to alter those dynamics. In this vein, I've liked 2, 26, 33, 41, and 48 above in the hopes that a solution here can be found, not necessarily that all of these need to be implemented.

Yes! Please do this ASAP!
It would be nice if this got done, but not at the top of my "want" list
Meh. Leave it the way it is/Don't care either way/Not sure what is meant by this.


1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs -
2) Hunter's Art is changed -
3) Split Shot is changed -
4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line -
5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power-
6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart -
7) Ranged Interrupt -
8) Make Quickshot Faster (on the move and/or no induction) -
9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation -
10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored -
11) Barbed Arrow bleed duration returned to pre-EotD level -
12) Low cut always removes a slow without the need for PVP gear -
13) Give hunters a larger support role -
14) Hunter version of the Black Arrow's Skirmisher Stance -
15) Update Find the Path (Magnitude and/or works in combat) -
16) Give the Hunter Moving Target -
17) Make Cry of the Predator non-pottable-
18) Strength of the Earth's pre-EotD's magnitude is restored -
19) Increase damage of Swift Bow -
20) Return Direct Flight to the Ettenmoors -
21) Hunter Bubble, either on its own, or when SotE or Press On are activated -
22) Provide hunters with increased morale (base, itemization, trait) -
23) Fast draw is moved to Blue, Strong Draw is moved to Red -
24) Additional Return to Camp anchors -
25) Include Split Shot in the Fast Draw trait -
26) Return Strong Draw to its pre-ROI incarnatoin -
27) Needful Haste provides a sprint -
28) Set Trap and Set Snare should be on seperate CD -
29) Update Hunter's Melee -
30) Improved Focus is changed -
31) Buff Stances Strength -
32) Buff Stance Endurance -
33) Improve/update/change Camo (increased stealth level and/or add movement) -
34) Heightened senses trait should be removed and the bonus should become innate -
35) Give us a trait that will temporarily increase our ranged distance
36) Break the traitlines down into: Single Target DPS with inductions, Limited or No Induction DPS, Focus building/power saving DPS
37) Put Threat back on Stance Strength
38) If target is immune to Hunter CC, the target is debuffed and interrupted
39) Return Improved Fleet to its pre-ROI incarnation
40) Allow Burn Hot/Cool Burn to affect our melee skills
41) Poison Cure animation is faster, and done on the move
42) Agile Rejoinder heal provides an evade buff
43) Overhaul Merciful Shot

Ok, these are my suggestions for hunter. I hope this is a right place to post this wall of text.

From the wiki:
The Hunter is a master of field and forest, unmatched with the bow. Hunters use their survival skills to guide their companions and lay traps for their enemies. Hunters are at their strongest when attacking from a distance, but they are able to defend themselves in melee combat, when needed.
Hunter is a primary DPS, secondary CC & AoE DPS

With this in mind, imho hunter could go 3 ways :
Burst damage way and go.
Sustained and AOE damage way.
Close combat and cc/debuff way.



1-Active Skills

Swift Stroke current level dependent Parry Rating is up by 5%

Hunter's Art
• Stance: Endurance: +20% Target Attack Duration for 20s
• Stance: Precision: +792 Finesse Rating for 20s
• Stance: Strength: +5% Ranged Damage for 20s
(Animation is shorter: you fire a blue lightning arrow)

Bright Campfire current level dependent bonus for ICPR and ICMR Rating is up by 10%

Cry of the Predator: In addition to its normal effect, requires 4 traits in Way of the skirmisher : Fear debuff : + 10% target miss chance for 20 secondes

Press Onward : In addition to its normal effect,can be used while moving, requires Press Onward legendary trait to be slotted.

Bard's Arrow: In addition to its normal effect, requires 4 traits in Way of the skirmisher : Fear debuff : + 10% target miss chance for 20 secondes

Barbed Arrow: -50% Target Run Speed Duration: 10s

Improved Swift Bow: In addition to its normal effect, add 3 focus

Fleetness: -60% Moving Miss Chance; No Focus loss on movement; +10% Run Speed; -15% Bow Inductions; +1 Focus per 5 seconds; Duration 30 seconds

Distracting Shot: In addition to its normal effect, requires 4 traits in Way of the skirmisher : Light debuff : + 10% target miss chance for 20 secondes

Improved Quick Shot: Instant skill with no induction but a 4 secondes cooldown-Can be use while moving.

Desperate Flight: Sets Run Speed to 125%; Duration: 15s; Cooldown: 10m; 4 traits in the way of the scout line slotted reduce the cooldown by 300 seconds.






2-Stances

Stance: Strength +10% Ranged Damage Adds Focus point every 12 seconds

Stance: Precision +[Level x 8] Ranged Critical Rating Adds Focus point every 5 seconds

Stance: Endurance +[Level x 8] Ranged Evade and Parry Rating reduction Adds Focus point every 9 seconds






3-Trait Sets






3a-Way of the scout (previously The Bowmaster) : the hit'n'run/hide way

*Traits Updates:

Swift Mercy: Increases the damage +15% Merciful Shot damage; -1 Merciful Shot Focus cost for each use of Swift Bow


Master of field and forest (was Heightened Senses ): Camouflage become Improved Camouflage;
Instant stealth
Add 10 to Stealth Level
Usable in combat
Break on move or damage
Cooldown 20 secondes

Deep Concentration In addition to its normal effects:.
Applied on removal:
+25% Ranged Critical Chance
+25% Bow Critical Multiplier
Improved Focus and Intent concentration :
Duration: 10s


*Bonus set :

Barbed Fury
Swift and True
True Shot
Swift Mercy
Shot through the Heart
Master of field and forest
Deep Concentration
Stealthy Shot


2 Equipped:
+3% Ranged Damage
3 Equipped:
Track skills makes the target tracked more vulnerable to damage type (Duration 10s, +5% Damage) :
Passage of Nature : Ancient dwarf and Beleriand Damage
Passage of Foes : Beleriand and westerness damage
Passage of shadow : Ancient dwarf and westerness damage
+2% Ranged damage
4 Equipped:
reduce the cooldown of desperate flight by 300 seconds.
-15s Track Skills Cooldowns
-60 Heart Seeker Cooldown







3b-Way of the skirmisher (old name: Trapper of foes) : close combat and debuff way

*Traits Updates:

Sturdy Traps: The damage of your traps and snares is increased by 30%.

Spring Loaded Traps: -(Level × 15) Armour Value

Barbed Hindrance: In addition to its normal effect your Barbed Arrow roots your foe for a short time; 4s Root;50% break chance on damage after 1s

Heart of the Bard : A successful use of Bard's Arrow will reset cooldowns of Distracting shot, Dazing blow and Cry of the predator.


*Bonus set :

Sturdy Traps
Combat Traps
Strong Intimidation
Spring Loaded Traps
Barbed Hindrance
Heart of the Bard
Rapid Recovery
Fast Draw


2 Equipped:
The damage of your traps and snares is increased by 20% and Trap Skills are now instant
3 Equipped:
-30s Trap Skill Cooldowns
Improved Piercing trap effect is now applied to all traps and do not breack the root effect of the traps while it last : [levelx2] shadow damage every 2 seconds for 20 seconds
4 Equipped:
Swift bow and Split shot can be fire on the move
+ [levelx5] moral
Distracting shot, Cry of the predator and Bard arrow : + 10% target miss chance for 20 secondes (cumulative)






3c-Way of The Huntsman : the gun turret

*Traits Updates:

Arrow Storm: In addition to its normal effect, Split shot radius up to 5m


*Legendary Traits updates:

Improved Fleetness: Your Fleetness becomes Improved Fleetness. It lasts longer and Improved Fleetness is now activated when you enter Precision stance and remains activate as long as you are in Precision.
+10s Duration; Requires: 5 traits in the Way of The Huntsman line slotted.

*Bonus set :

Arrow Storm
Critical Eye
Hail of Arrows
Earthborn
Deadly Precision
Swift Recovery
Strong Draw
Resolute Aim

2 Equipped:
+20% Critical Multiplier for focus skill
3 Equipped:
+1 focus for deadly precision
-10% Bow Inductions
4 Equipped:
20% chance for Quick Shot to grant one bonus Focus
-10% Bow Inductions
+40% Critical Multiplier for 1st and 2nd attacks from Swift bow
-2 secondes Swift bow cooldown.

To add some ideas,

-Blindside immediate skill
-Merciful shot to be used while moving and reduce the focus required to 4
-Press onward a fast skill with no unduction & buff the morale/power heal up abit
-Snare, can be used on the move (similar to the BA's one, affecting one target only though) & buff up the dot like ~150 common dmg per tick.
-Split shot, increased radius
-Dazing blow, a fast skill (shorter animation than now).

I havent read this whole thing, so forgive me if I suggest something that has been mentioned. My hunter was my 1st toon since about a week after launch so I've seen alot of the ups and downs for our class.

I do hope the direction our class is going will be towards moving while using inductions with more overall survivablitly. Kind of like how the BAs r setup now in skirmisher stance. Ability to do great damage (at a reduced ranged however) while moving. So my suggestions for now would be:

As others have said combine the crit legs. and power legs. down from 2 each to 1.

Add in a legacy to increase the crit buff duration on focus (currently sits @ 5 secs...maybe max out at 10 secs)

Add the buff to intent concentration as well

fix intent concentration to be an actual "fast" skill as its tooltip'd now. Currently we're stuck in the annimation for, id guess, 1-3 secs, which is very annoying in PvP. Turn it into an insta cast on the move skill. Maybe even add in a legacy to reduce the CD on it.

Make heightened senses an enate skill. We shouldnt have to trait for it to track stealth & increase the range. As it stands now this trait gets very little use (and being in the ToF line, even less).

Remove the QS buff tied to the stances and just add on perma. the 40% slow. Again very annoying not having a slow more then 10% in any other stance then S:S.

Put needful haste back to its old duration, its too short as it stands now. Return the old CD if u want.

Press onward should be an insta cast skill. We have a joke of a self heal now (agile rejoinder??, one of the worst skills in the game btw) if were're going to use a legendary slot on something, it shouldnt have a 4 sec. induction, especially since it's only a 1/4 heal every 5 mins. Buff it up to a 4k heal every 5 ona insta cast, it'd actually be slotted more.

Hunters art needs to be a faster overall skill, and remove the finese bonus and add a crit bonus to it.

increase the split shot radius to 7m.....2m is WORTHLESS for an AoE skill.

Return Barbed arrow bleed back to its previous traited duration of 20 secs!!!

Return the 3rd shot of SS to match the 1st two. That was such a hax "fix" during moria to reduce the damage of the 3rd shot.

Bump the duration on strength of earth up from 5 secs to at least 10 secs.

Return DF to usable in combat in the moors (again another HAX fix)

I'll leave it at that for now, oh and I WANT A BUBBLE!! everyone else gets one! I want one dang nab it! lol,

Okay, back in this thread and revisiting an old topic or two and suggesting more.

K. -- Selective Shots / Possible Split Shot Revamp aka Splitting Shot? -- By repeatedly tapping the hotkey, a hunter is able to apply a 'tick' (marker/lock-on) on the target. After a brief amount of time, the 'tick' expires and the bow fires. If a hunter is facing the target and does not break line of sight, all shots are fired in a repetitive manner like SB/ISB. A hunter can apply this to be an AOE, using tab-target or other means to apply 'ticks.' Should an enemy break LoS, all 'ticks' are removed on that target.

Just note that to make this skill less op, only the 'ticks' could be applied before firing any shots, so a hunter would have to sit with the timer (almost like an induction, hey?! But no setbacks) ... this skill should be allowed for use while on the move, until the actual shot which STOPS the hunter rather than that stupid error which says you can't do that without moving.

Example one, single target dps::

Character selects target, presses hotkey four times, target has four 'ticks' applied. Target remains in sight;Timer for skill runs out. Bow is shot four times at target.

Example two, removing ticks::

Character selects target, presses hotkey four times, target has four 'ticks' applies. Target runs behind a rock;Timer for skill runs out. Bow is shot 0 times at target.

Example three, AOE/'Selective' Shots, aka multi target::

Character selects target (1), presses hotkey three time, target (1) has three 'ticks' applied. Character uses tab, selectes target (2), presses hotkey twice, target (2) has two 'ticks' applied. Targets remain in sight; Timer for skill runs out. Bow is shot 3 times at target (1), and Bow is shot 2 times at target (2).

Example four, true capability of skill in PvMP/PvE::

Character selects target (1), presses hotkey once, target (1) has one 'tick' applied. Target (1) goes out of range or line of sights target. 'Ticks' removed from target. Timer for skill is still active and has not timed out. Character selects with tab target (2), presses hotkey twice, target (2) has two ticks applied. Character notices target (1) is back in line of sight/range, tab targets (1), and presses hotkey twice, target (1) has two ticks applied. Bow is shot two times at target (2), and bow is shot 2 times at target (1).

If you're confused about the order of when the targets are fired at in the last sentence there, remember that target 1 went out of sight / range / front side of screen.

I know this suggestion is rather long but it would really change how the hunter class is viewed. ... + it would just be pretty darn neat. Want it less OP Mr. Dev? Just say that the crits from it won't build focus even when traited for it. Aka non-focus building skills.

M. (New Suggestion) -- Curved DoT Barbed Arrow / New Skill -- Continuous Bleed? -- As it is now, all the hunter is capable of is dps over time, and burst dps. Why not add something new into the mix? Curved DoT would mean that the dps would start out low, but then work its way up. and stick on the target. This would have use in PvE and PvP. Of course though, it wouldn't be exponential though, there would be a flat rate to what the maximum it could be (if thought to be OP, certain type of targets aka MP or PvE would be different). Aka, stronger than barbed arrow yet not as initially potent and not tied to heart-seeker or a silly melee skill...

N. (New Suggestion) -- Non-evil damage type / evil damage type skill imbuing (revisiting sgst L). Hunter channels energy learned from nature to change damage type of weapon. Aka, removal of need for oils essentially. However, if you don't want it so OP, just make oil versions apply the secondary effects of fire DoT/light miss chance, or work something out new.. make hunters a unique class that gives people a reason to play it besides the dps and not just be another chimp or rock waver.

The sad thing is after reading all of these suggestions and those posted by other people, there is so much to improve upon with the hunter class. No wonder the dev gets overwhelmed. The class is such a hack job as it is, that fixing it is quite the challenge.


I saw a funny line in OOC the other day when /gratsing a creep on a 1v1 win. It was something to the effect:


"lol hunters are so bad... just give them a nudge and they fall over. it seems like they are stuck at level 70"

I wonder though, Seyz, if this thread was started on every class forum, if everyone would have a thread the same size or even greater? I bet even something like the Champ forum, and champs are in a really good place right now, would probably have a monster list.


We're all up to date again. Bright Campire... who'd a thunk it.

Originally Posted by Estranger

20) Return Direct Flight to the Ettenmoors - 6 Like

This should read:

20) Return Desperate Flight to the Ettenmoors - 6 Like

At the moment they appear to mostly be focused on Wardens , that's certainly the class where the most blue posts are with minstrels and guardians to a lesser extent.

Hunters will always be stuck with the issue that the class is the most popular , if they made it more powerful it would only serve to skew the population even further. If anything ideally they need to make hunters less popular while other classes like Burgs are made noticeably more popular. That's assuming they are actually attempting to balance by population distribution (which is pretty common in MMOs).

Balacing Checklist
Hunter role= DPS.
Can a group with a hunter in the dps role complete all current content? = Check.
Can a solo hunter complete all current solo content & epic storyline = Check.
Is the class popular and well represented in active player #s ? = Check.

Balancing review complete.

At best we might get a few tweaks along the way.

Hunters Art, seriously needs a rethink the skill actually reduces your dps given the time needed to cast it. As one of our 'new' skills that is quite sad.

Yellow Line , again needs a rethink people aren't traiting it, it isn't any more desireable to spec deep Yellow in RoI than it was in pre-ROI.

Stances - despite the changes it is still S:P >>>>>>> everything else. This is linked to S:P being the only stance that gets a legacy and the overall dps of S:P still being greater for most situations than S:S.

PVP needs a major rethink in general around the hunter for survivability but given the PVE focus on LOTRO this is surely even less likely than the rest.

Pursuing other things like more DPS etc. seems to be just wishful thinking.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

This should read:

20) Return Desperate Flight to the Ettenmoors - 6 Like

No never liked that skill as it was, but if you have the hunter ported 40m in a random direction, too bad if that is off a cliff, so use it at your own peril, then I am in. Put it on a 5 minute cooldown and you might have something. Especially fun with acid or lava pits or while walking on suspended bridges. That would be a fun skill to have and the hunter's position will limit the use of it. PVMP the monster would still get the credit for a kill, not like before, so I think that would be an interesting change to the skill.

Tydalmir

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

The sad thing is after reading all of these suggestions and those posted by other people, there is so much to improve upon with the hunter class. No wonder the dev gets overwhelmed. The class is such a hack job as it is, that fixing it is quite the challenge.

First rule of medicine - 'do no harm'.

Don't nerf things on the grounds 'they were useful'

Don't spend your precious dev time coming up with two new skills that you don't have to test to know they are useless. You only have to write down the details on a piece of paper and read it back to yourself.

Nice Threat, probably another waste of time tho, but there we go:

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power

Yes, do that. Please.

16) Give the Hunter Moving Target or 20) Return Desperate Flight to the Ettenmoors or 21) Hunter Bubble, either on its own, or when SotE or Press On are activated or 39 Buff Press Onward (usable on the move and/or increase magnitude)

At least on of the above is needed for defence. I could be extremely happy with 16+21 or 16+39. They could be passive traits only in pvp after a certain rank.

22) Provide hunters with increased morale (base, itemization, trait)

Obviously AT least make it a passive trait for pvp use only that scales morale up according to rank. Each rank increasing morale by 1% seems a good start.

26) Return Strong Draw to its pre-ROI incarnatoin

It wasnt a good change and we all want it back, cant see it happening tbh.

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line

Seriously now. Just look at it. Does it seem at least decent? Almost all it's traits are a waste and under no circumstances anyone will even think of traiting like that.

Originally Posted by Estranger

34 Heightened senses trait should be removed and the bonus should become innate - 3 Like

Oh, and like the hell out of this one too.

-Maha

Originally Posted by Calladan

Nice Threat, probably another waste of time tho,

No, its not. This thread is being watched, trust me. Its not as if we can suddenly expect our top 10 likes to be included in update 5, but I believe we're back in the conversation.

Updated as well.

We're losing steam, I hope we can keep this thread relevant for a while yet.

+Like to:

Scale campfire to match food levels.
Find the Path applicable in combat, at least to the hunter
Hunter's Art shortened. As it is now, I never use it.
Split shot arrows spread damage across the number of targets hit, so single target takes more damage.
Reduce focus gating.
Give us a new skill that makes us desirable for raids/fellowships. A unique buff perhaps?

- My sig used to have my hunter as my main. No longer. It really is not fun to play any more. Much more satisfying to blam things as an RK or a minstrel or a LM.

Campfire incombat and OOC buffs improved to at least food level to encourage a hunter role in fellowships more than anything.

Quick shot slow innate whatever the stance.

**new** Hunters should be allowed to run the same speed backwards in combat as they do forwards, as we are supposed to be nimble. Would allow use of PS on the move more often.

**new** cure poison ability fellowship wide with a range without the need to trait it, similiar to captains fear cure.

Originally Posted by Allyjspurs

**new** Hunters should be allowed to run the same speed backwards in combat as they do forwards, as we are supposed to be nimble. Would allow use of PS on the move more often.

For all of our 'mobility' we seem to be unable to even move when we're shooting. Inductions while moving. Its like card games played on a motorcycle.

I support a more extreme approach to that ally.

After looking over variety of posts in this and similar content topics I`ve tried to formulate my opinion of how I would like to my hunter to be improved/changed. And came to this:

1. Stances:
a) Strengh - to give +25% base damage increase and +1000 Finesse, but disable use of ranged skills while moving (i.e. PS and BlA) - basic idea of that to make hunter be able to deal superior damage out of standing spot, while still being fragile.

b) Fleetness (instead of Precision) - to give opportunity to use all focus based skills while moving, Focus regen as in currnet Precision stance and decrease of all inductions by 20% (still usable only while standing still) - idea of that stance to give opportunity to deal sustainable damage while running (like chasing flee enemy or running away/kiting).

c) Endurance - to give +1000 to resistance, Physical and Tactical mitigations and -10% power costs of all skills - basic idea to increase survival chances while still dealing sustainable damage (all range skills to be used only while standing). Perhaps scaling could be greater or smaller...

Stance switch should be on some CD I guess (perhaps 1-2 mins), so during short encounter you can use a combination of two stances, not like switching every 10 seconds...

2. Traitline cap-stones:
a) Red cap-stone (currently called Cool Burn) - to assume benefits of assotiated skill (currently Burn Hot) and give +25% base damage, +10% crit chance and +1500 Finesse increase.

b) Blue cap-stone (currently Imp.Fleetness) - to assume benefits of assotiated skill (currently Fleetness) and give -25% of all incutions, +15% in-combat speed.

c) Yellow cap-stone (whatever its called now) - to assume benefits of assotiated skill and give +2500 to resistance, Physical and Tactical mitigations as well as Evade and Parry ratings.

All cap-stones to have 30 sec durations with 5 min CD and applicability as group buff for fellowship in range of 6m.

3. Different skills and traits:
a) skills assotiated with trait-line cap-stones should give self-buff of cap-stone nature, but on a minor scale with same duration and CD. (so basically +1 skill on pannel assotiated with yellow line).

b) Distracting shot to be changed from 10 sec daze to 5 sec stun with 30 sec CD - being improvable with respective yellow trait (trait makes it to apply 5 sec 50% slow after breaking from/potting it and CD to go down for 15 sec).

c) Mercifull shot to be applicable at 25% opponent health and have base damage of 2-2,5k. Corruption removal to absolete from it.

d) Blood Arrow to remove corruptions (in a way as current MS), damage, costs and CD to remain unchanged.

e) Heightended Sences (trait) to allow to track down up to 3 targets at the same time and not loosing target if it stealthed/burried being out of combat (so only by using in-combat stealth warg can dissapear from radar).

c) Combat traps (trait) allows to use both Snair and Trap in-combat on separate CDs (Snair to be allowed while moving).

d) Desperate Flight to be changed to let say Desperate Hide allowing Hunter to stealth up and drop aggro in combat instead of being removed to nearest GY. CD same.

e) Hunters Art should dissapear from the skill pannel.

g) Quick Shot to apply 40% slow irrespective of the stance.

Otherwise I think our skills/traits are more-or-less fine.

P.S. Sorry Deaddove for kind of copying your avatar, I found it just epic

Originally Posted by Estranger

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs - 19 like

2) Hunter's Art is changed - 16 likes

3) Split Shot is changed - 17 likes

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line - 14 like

10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored - 7 Like

11) Buff Barbed Arrow (bleed duration returned to pre-EotD level and/or increase base slow) - 10 like

12) Low cut always removes a slow without the need for PVP gear - 6 Like

13) Give hunters a larger support role - 5 Like

16) Give the Hunter Moving Target - 5 Like

17) Buff Cry of the Predator (non-pottable25 and/or +miss chance)- 6 Like

18) Strength of the Earth's pre-EotD's magnitude is restored -5 Like

20) Return Desperate Flight to the Ettenmoors - 7 Like

26) Return Strong Draw to its pre-ROI incarnatoin - 4 Like

29) Update Hunter's Melee - - 2 Likes

31) Buff Stances Strength - 3 Like

32) Buff Stance Endurance - 4 Like

35 Put Threat back on Stance Strength - 1 Like

37 Poison Cure animation is faster, and done on the move - 1 Like

38 Overhaul Merciful Shot - 2 Like

39 Buff Press Onward (usable on the move and/or increase magnitude) - 4 Like

43 Increase Parry on Swift Stroke

50 Give us group wide poisoin cures without needing to trait for it.

I like these.

Great thread ty for doing this.

In the main the the trait lines need some definition.
I would rather see a focus/icpr/crit trait line which gives greater dps over time , a trapper/stealth/melee/poison removal pvp solo traitline with no significant dps loss, and a spike dps pve solo/ or ranged tanking/ aoe/ threat/ survivability in small group traitline.

That way we can be a one target dps engine that ticks over for raids. BLUE
Those of us that like to solo in pvp can actually hunt. Some of the useful melee cd & resolute aim into YELLOW
We can take some aggro, survive better in solo pve, or offtank/range tank in 3 man instances RED

Originally Posted by Estranger

10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored - 7 Like

Thanks, Estranger for compiling this list.

I have to call out one suggestion, though. Why in the world would we go backwards on Needful Haste. With trait and legacy, it used to last 45/120s or 37.5% of the time. With new duration and CD, it lasts 30/60s or 50% of the time. Sure, we click it more, but we now get buffed more of the time!

1) "Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs"
10) "Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored"

^ This

btw you should concretise terms like "30) Improved Focus is changed" ....change could also mean ... Duration 2secs, 10% krit multi ...^^

Originally Posted by Hildilas

10) "Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored"

^ This

Why? I'm really trying hard to understand this one.

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

7) Ranged Interrupt
Sorry, Hunters will not be getting an additional Interrupt.

8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow)
Unlikely to see significant change here. Induction-less was attempted during beta and it was too problematic to stay around. As for on the move, such a change would need to be paired with a range reduction, or a reduction in the potency of the Hunters slows. This is not a direction we are planning on moving in.

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored
If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.


The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback about are my ideas on Split Shot and Hunters Art, and to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since.

Edit: Just to clarify, things I'm talking about here are potentials for Update 6. Update 5 is very much put to bed at this point.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback about are my ideas on Split Shot and Hunters Art, and to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since.

ZC, your Hunters Art ideas sound like they may be worth trying out...the skill was always (for me) just at the verge of seeming useful and worth including in my pre-combat routine, but just didn't quite prove out. With these slight improvements you mention, that may push it into the 'useful skills I'll use regularly' category. Worth a shot, so to speak.

I can't see Split Shot being worth revisiting in any incremental way. It is just too clunky and awkward a skill, way too little return on (primarily time but also power/focus) investment to become part of my shot rotation even with minor changes. Some skills are just turkeys, and this is one, short of a major overhaul or complete rebuild.

Like many hunters, I experimented with Trapper line for a while at one point in my life (I feel like I'm admitting some dirty secret from my past, heh!). For me, it was a couple of years ago, back in the MoM days, so my experience is a bit dated, BUT ... I also trait 4- or 5-deep yellow still from time to time, like when we're running Helegrod Spider wing and I want the AoE poison removal. So I still have a feel for the line, though I'm not delving deeply into it as I did back in 2009 or so. With that as front-end qualifier, here's my viewpoint: Trapper line is fine as-is for hunters who want to go CC build. The problem we as a community have is that so few hunters want to go into a CC build, ever. It is a bit like the community's reaction when you guys mentioned making us "true bow and blade warriors"...we don't log onto our hunters to melee, and we don't log onto our hunters to be second-rate CC. LMs and Burgs will alwas be better CC than even full yellow-line hunters, as they should be. When most people log onto their hunters, they want to be ranged dps for the groups they're joining. And that means...yep, Trapper line is largely unused. Which is okay; I'm all for accepting the fact that it will always be an infrequently-used line, but a true alternative for hunters who DO want a role different than pure dps, and let it stay at that. My perspective on the issue.

Cheers, hope this helps!

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

Perfect for me. But the animation of Hunter's Art is too slow. When you're using a lot of fast skills, stop for using a slow skill like Hunter's Art seems to be wasting time, even for the buffs.

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage

Perfect for me. But make the animation faster. When the induction is over, you still need to wait a bit until the char actually shoots.

Thanks for taking a look at the list ZC. Big props to the OP for maintaining this thread! I guess we should transition to responding to ZC now. So here I go...

I am very jazzed about the top 3 points. Campfire buffs in-combat have always been something I wanted. I still think it should only be usable out of combat, but the benefits remain once you enter combat. This could play into fellowship positioning, and stacking it with the RK's stone and the Minstrel's healing ring could really help buff the group at the start of a fight.

About Hunter's Art, I don't understand the fact that it does damage and that there is a visual effect on the enemy without us actually shooting at them. It seems reminiscent of the RK's non-aggro debuff, but we don't have any of those kind of magic-type powers so it seems out of character. The effects are also not debuffs on the enemy but buffs on us. I'd rather Hunter's Art just became a non-damaging buff similar to how Needful Haste functions. Tiering up is fine, but keep the focus cost down, like 1 focus cost per tier. I am happy to add another buff into my rotation to maintain. I'm already doing that with Needful Haste and Improved Fleetness. It mixes things up from just using attack skills, and forces me to constantly manage my focus pool. I would use this skill if it did not aggro and was not too costly in focus.

I agree with all the thoughts about split shot. I'd say you could just restrict it to two targets max, but let the limitation of targets push the damage to be more substantial...or at very least reduce the induction time. Adding more focus per baddie hit also sounds like a cool idea, so you could go that route, but even still if it doesn't hit hard or takes too long, I'm still not really going to use it.

Edit: My bad, I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention to the Hunter's Art animation, with the whole empowering and firing of the arrow. I made a point of watching it after this post. Still think it would be more useful as a straight non-aggro buff.

I used to use trapper line before RoI but now have gone more for the red line, why? The loss of root on penetrating shot, the needful haste duration is not good enough to make up for the dps loss training yellow, and a few other things which I will comment on when I get to my pc tomorrow (on phone) there just isn't enough good stuff to make it worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

i would suggest that the camp-fire gives the half hout of combat values like Burst if Revovery ( so 1380 power and 1608 moral).

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

i would prefer the tier up effect.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage

i would take the + 1 focus per target hit here

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

in my opinion there is just one thing that needs to be changed to make a really good traitline: pruge poison must be usable without any cooldowns and effect full fellowship. for me currently it is in the most known situation better not to have 4 traits of the traitline equipped, so i can take the poision one by one, but more frequently. or: give pruge poision an trippe as high resist rate against poision (so 9129)

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

it might also be nice, maybe in additional to that to have the possiblity to select the legacys for each traitline. currently i have one bow for two of my high-dps traitlines (huntsman and bowmaster) with no differents on them.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

its fine.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

7) Ranged Interrupt
Sorry, Hunters will not be getting an additional Interrupt.

we have 1 save and up to 5(mostly ranged) against mobs that are not immune to crod control. thats enought.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow)
Unlikely to see significant change here. Induction-less was attempted during beta and it was too problematic to stay around. As for on the move, such a change would need to be paired with a range reduction, or a reduction in the potency of the Hunters slows. This is not a direction we are planning on moving in.

couldn't you make it like this:
if in improved fleetness: IQS does not grant any focus points, but is usable while moving?

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

it would also be nice to have blindesite as an immediate skill. there is notthing more frustraiting to see you ISB at 95% and the guy now need an interrupt. if the ISB animation is finished the interrup comes to late.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored
If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.

i as a bowmaster hunter am using this skill defnetly not at colldown - the benefits for me are not that high.

I used to trait Yellow when soloing in moors or when hanging out with a small group of kinnies. But I never really got too good at being a CC person. It didn't/doesn't have a good enough benefit for traiting yellow rather than the 5b/2r i trait now. Sure i can stun a mob for a few secs/pew pew him down/fear him/pew pew him. Rinse/Repeat.

But it just seemed too stale. I havent traited too much into Yellow post RoI but dabbled with it in the moors a few times. While the damage penalties being removed made it more worthwhile, the lack of the root in PS, made it less effective when in larger raids. (imo)

I wouldn't mind seeing the Yellow line changed into a buffer line akin to minstrel anthems. Or rather have more debuffs put onto mobs. Something that keeps it fast paced like blue and red lines.