Thread: Catch a Breath Scaling and Power

While Isengard changed a lot of things, I feel that Guards are in a good spot. Been playing my guard almost exclusively since launch and still love him. The better threat gen and slight dps boost was sorely needed and imho implemented well.

That said, I still have to bring up (yet again lol) my small yet annoying issue with Catch a Breath. It is still based on the old max level cap of 50. A 300-400 heal with a morale pool between 10k and 15k is a bit silly - around a 2% to 4% heal, at level 75 less than 1 hit from a mob. Even with the legacies to bump the heal up and cooldown down as far as 15s it's not very helpful. And on top of that, you trait Controlled Breathing to get the addition of a power heal - but it still costs power to use.

Wardens are getting their HoTs scaled (QQ lol) because of the level cap going from 65-75 and the large overall increase of mob dps output, yet we're still on the level 50 version of one of only two self-heals. Do we deserve a giant leap up in it's healing power?

NO. I know it's a stop-gap heal and not meant to be relied on to save us from Arch-Nemesis-induced dirt naps, but allowing it to scale by level instead of the old arbitrary base numbers and removing or greatly reducing it's power cost when traited is entirely appropriate and long overdue.

Other than that and general disappointment in no new skills from Isengard (I do like the improved versions we did get), I honestly do think Guards are in a good place.

I agree with this, and would also like to see the power restoration scale. I don't have anything to go on but gut feeling, but it feels like CaB is restoring less power overall than it did at 65. Stupid me never checked the numbers. Maybe we can get MorliX to log onto his 65 guard and check what the traited stats are for comparison.

At level 75 with Controlled Breathing traited and no healing % modification from belts:
-Power cost is 169 power
-Restores 465.5 power
-Restores 426.2 to 473.6 morale

At level 75 with Controlled Breathing traited and +15% healing modification from belt:
-Restores 490.1 to 544.6 morale (+15% confirmed)
-All else is the same

I'm inclined to think that the power cost increased since level 65, while nothing else changed. I could easily be proven wrong.

Ive long been in the camp that traited CaB should have no power cost with the power heal reduced to reflect it being "free".

As to the scaling of CaB, I think it ought to be tied to Vitality. Increasing Vit would increase the heal from CaB...but put it on some sort of diminishing returns curve, such that as you stack Vit and your morale pool is growing at a 5:1 ratio, CaB would start out scaling at 5:1 but in the 1k+ Vit range is only scaling 3:1 or 2:1. Kinda fuzzy on the exact numbers.

This would also allow it to grow with us, so that as level caps raise CaB would keep up.

My thoughts on Catch a Breath are that it should start as 25% below half a level tier potion in both morale and power. The legacy should be changed to +25% at rank 9 and allow it to affect both morale and power.

With the slotted trait, a max tier +25% heal, and two yellow slotted (for +75% power heal) it would be effectively as if popping a half power potion at your level (600-650 morale and 500-550 power). Not much more than it is now, but definitely more worthwhile.

This makes a lot of sense. Not that it matters, but I think this thread makes an excellent point/argument, and would love to see some version of it implemented. +Rep to the OP.

it needs to keep the block chain going also!

Heals tied to vitality would be a great way of doing this, in fact since the launch of isen I have thought long and hard about how you could possibly tie the incoming healing rating of guardians and wardens to their vitality, being as its the primary stat on our sets. It could be the one alteration that keeps guards and wards as the prefered tank classes, at least in the eyes of healers.

But any form of lvl scaling of CaB and its traited power restore function would be very welcome.

Originally Posted by Nicepants42

I agree with this, and would also like to see the power restoration scale. I don't have anything to go on but gut feeling, but it feels like CaB is restoring less power overall than it did at 65. Stupid me never checked the numbers. Maybe we can get MorliX to log onto his 65 guard and check what the traited stats are for comparison.

At level 75 with Controlled Breathing traited and no healing % modification from belts:
-Power cost is 169 power
-Restores 465.5 power
-Restores 426.2 to 473.6 morale

At level 75 with Controlled Breathing traited and +15% healing modification from belt:
-Restores 490.1 to 544.6 morale (+15% confirmed)
-All else is the same

I'm inclined to think that the power cost increased since level 65, while nothing else changed. I could easily be proven wrong.

At level 68, my power cost is 155 power. I receive 427 power and 386.7-430.7 morale. This is with no legs for it, but with Controlled Breathing traited.

Originally Posted by WARR10R

At level 68, my power cost is 155 power. I receive 427 power and 386.7-430.7 morale. This is with no legs for it, but with Controlled Breathing traited.

Nice, so the net power restoration is still increasing as level increases. I'm glad to be proven wrong.

Assuming we use the cooldown reduction legacy, every minute, we're able to restore:
-1184 power
-1799 morale (actually closer to 2150 due to incoming healing near 20%)

I dunno, guys. It looks like it IS scaling already, and I honestly don't know how much more healing we need from this thing. I mainly use it for power restoration, personally.

But the OP does have a point that at level 65, we were capped at 650 Vit and tanking raids with ~10K morale, whereas now we're running around with 1400-2000 vitality and 14,000+ unbuffed morale. CaB healing may have scaled, but definitely not at the same rate as our morale/vit.

At this point my only gripe would be that in order to use this skill as a means of restoring power, you have to spend 169 power. Eliminating the power cost when traited (and possibly reducing the amount of power restored by a commensurate amount) has been the best suggestion I've seen. Anything beyond that is gravy if you ask me.

Mostly I just hate getting power-drained and sitting there hoping my pitiful regen will tick for enough to actually let me use CaB to get some power back.

this has been pointed out before, even at lvl 65 it was not as effective as a morale restore as it should have been due to not scaling well.

At lvl 50 it restored about 10% of max morale per use, now its more like 2-4%

max power hasn't increased as much so the power restore has scaled fine, though i agree the trait should remove the power cost.

and inc healing rating from vit is a great idea +rep

Originally Posted by ArkhonZ

Wardens are getting their HoTs scaled (QQ lol) because of the level cap going from 65-75 and the large overall increase of mob dps output, yet we're still on the level 50 version of one of only two self-heals. Do we deserve a giant leap up in it's healing power?

Warden HoTs didnt scale. 1 out of probably 10ish nerfs we got with RoI.

This skill should, on the same lvl as warden HoTs, scale with might and max-morale, not lvl-based as it is atm (probably: [Base value*lvl])

Warden HoTs don't scale atm but will with Update 5 from Orion's blog:

http://my.lotro.com/user-55/2011/11/...with-update-5/

"HoTs scale with level - You should always own your mistakes and I own this one. I did not make the adjustments to the heal over time magnitude and so wardens were suddenly far, far, far behind the damage curve of monsters. Monsters have been increasing fairly steadily in terms of damage output from level 65 up and the HoTs did not scale accordingly. This will be rectified meaning that the HoTs will be significantly higher."

Originally Posted by Nicepants42

Nice, so the net power restoration is still increasing as level increases. I'm glad to be proven wrong.

Assuming we use the cooldown reduction legacy, every minute, we're able to restore:
-1184 power
-1799 morale (actually closer to 2150 due to incoming healing near 20%)

I dunno, guys. It looks like it IS scaling already, and I honestly don't know how much more healing we need from this thing. I mainly use it for power restoration, personally.

Good numbers, but based on the premise you will get a Block event exactly every 15 seconds and only use it for CaB. Possible of course, mostly when soloing a mob or small group of em. In fellows or raid situations you have to pay more attention to using taunts/stuns and AoEs, bleeds, and TtK from Parry chains so a lot harder to hit Catch every 15 or even 30 seconds.

Gotta say, pretty pleased with the positive and productive replies from everyone, thanks for helping getting this issue some visibility! +rep all around lol

The problem with Catch a Breath not scaling (just like Warden HoTs) is originating from the healing change introduced with SoM.

This healing change introduced the Tactical Heal Rating onto LIs for healing classes (Minstrels, Runekeepers, Lore Masters, Captains). What happened is that after level 50, all their heals stopped scaling with level, and you had to use a LI with the Tact Heal Rating to compensate for this (many Minstrels initially saw BIG drops in the size of the heals from their skills as a result of this); similar to what happened with our shield damage and the Shield Use Rank. The side effect of this is that this scaling on heals also hit Guardians and Wardens, such that after level 50 we are seeing minimal improvement on these skills because we don't have access to the Tactical Heal Rating.

According to the semi dev diary Orion posted in the Warden forums, in Update 5 all their HoTs will be scaling with level, as well as their outgoing healing % modifier being switched from Will to Might.

To balance this change and be fair to the last 2 remaining might primary stat classes, Champions and Guardians should also get these changes applied.

Also; semi on topic question: Is man heal ever going to scale? (Even the dwarf +vit racial now scales (+75 vit at lvl 75) iirc, and the percentage based racials have of course always scaled)

I'm wary of asking for improvements to man-heal, as our passive inc healing racial is still significantly overpowered for tanks.

Totally agree with the OP. CaB just doesn't heal enough imo and needs an increase. The main reason I use it now is to grab some much needed power and but then I have to have enough power in the first place to use this skill!! I no longer bother with the CaB cool down reduction legacy due to the minimal heal it gives or the increase to CaB heal legacy as its just a waste of a legacies now imho. Our only other self heal skill, Man Heal, should also be bumped up a bit I reckon. For an emergency heal its just not enough now, particularly if you have a bunch of level 75+ mobs/boss & DoTs on you. Other than that I believe the class is pretty much in good place. I don't play any other toons as I just love playing my Guardian and I hope this remains the same.

./signed

thanks for pointing this out, we do need it!

/signed

Noticed this mysellf yesterday evening. At this moment CaB is an inferiour skill and scaling is needed.

CaB needs some serious scaling, I mostly don't use it anymore while tanking, only use when in overpower for the power healing, thats also not that great.

Another thing for future updates could be that CaB would continue the block reaction and eliminate the power cost of the skill when traited.

if i don't have controlled breathing traited to heal power, i don't ever use it.

15.5% inc healing and i'm just barely pushing 500 morale on the heal.
when i'm close to 13k unbuffed or 18k buffed, it starts to seem a bit useless as a means of healing morale

11-11-11 bump (with 1,111 thread views....spooky) Let's keep the suggestions visible and discussion active for a better chance of Graal bowing to our demands.

I understand the frustration... trust me I do, but here is something we need to consider.

Westfold Athelas Essence
1200-1300 (1250) morale per 2 minutes

Westfold Celebrant Salve
1000-1100 (1050) power per 2 minutes

Catch a Breath (per Nicepants42's numbers earlier in the thread and with the fully decked CaB legacies)
3920.8 to 4356.8 (4138.8) morale per 2 minutes
2372 power per 2 minutes (after sutracting the cost of CaB).

True that you're not necessarially going to get a block reactive at the right time every 15 seconds, but it is not unreasonable to assume that you COULD.

This is the math we're up against in the Devs minds, I believe.

What I think most of us would prefer to compare this to is a champion's Bracing Attack heal over 2 minutes as well as their power gain from Second Wind over 2 minutes, but I'm not sure they would err on our side in that due to our different purposes in fights and even if they did change something it would probably be on the champion side of things since Guardian's are treated as a baseline class.

Originally Posted by AdarinOuest

I understand the frustration... trust me I do, but here is something we need to consider.

Westfold Athelas Essence
1200-1300 (1250) morale per 2 minutes

Westfold Celebrant Salve
1000-1100 (1050) power per 2 minutes

Catch a Breath (per Nicepants42's numbers earlier in the thread and with the fully decked CaB legacies)
3920.8 to 4356.8 (4138.8) morale per 2 minutes
2372 power per 2 minutes (after sutracting the cost of CaB).

True that you're not necessarially going to get a block reactive at the right time every 15 seconds, but it is not unreasonable to assume that you COULD.

This is the math we're up against in the Devs minds, I believe.

What I think most of us would prefer to compare this to is a champion's Bracing Attack heal over 2 minutes as well as their power gain from Second Wind over 2 minutes, but I'm not sure they would err on our side in that due to our different purposes in fights and even if they did change something it would probably be on the champion side of things since Guardian's are treated as a baseline class.

does the champ bracing attack heal need 2 legacies to maximise its effect ?

we should really look at what CAB heals with no legacies compared to other class healing skills or pot heals. we shouldn't have to invest 2 legacies to make the skill half as effective as it used to or should be.

Originally Posted by khanden

does the champ bracing attack heal need 2 legacies to maximise its effect ?

we should really look at what CAB heals with no legacies compared to other class healing skills or pot heals. we shouldn't have to invest 2 legacies to make the skill half as effective as it used to or should be.

True, but there is one legacy for it and you have to slot an extra trait to reduce the fervour cost. I don't have access to any numbers for a 75 champion though.

I agree that this is perhaps a better comparison, but our level of need for the healing/power regen is nowhere near what the need is for a champion.

Originally Posted by AdarinOuest

True, but there is one legacy for it and you have to slot an extra trait to reduce the fervour cost. I don't have access to any numbers for a 75 champion though.

I agree that this is perhaps a better comparison, but our level of need for the healing/power regen is nowhere near what the need is for a champion.

i agree a champ may need more healing but its all relative as they bring more dps, that is supposed to be different.

if we compare what the potential morale restore of CAB was at lvl 50 in S.O.A. and what we get now without any legacies there is a clear reduction in its effect. even with both legacies maxed its not half what it used to be, the power return is fine but its not the main purpose of the skill.

Originally Posted by khanden

i agree a champ may need more healing but its all relative as they bring more dps, that is supposed to be different.

if we compare what the potential morale restore of CAB was at lvl 50 in S.O.A. and what we get now without any legacies there is a clear reduction in its effect. even with both legacies maxed its not half what it used to be, the power return is fine but its not the main purpose of the skill.

2 legacies AND a class trait slot to add power heal to the skill, and even then it's around 1/3 of a westfold heal pot. But like I said at the start, it DOESN'T need a huge upswing, just scale it closer to level like most every other heal ability in the game. Something even as small as a 50% uptick at level 75 would be acceptable, and it would still be less than half of a westfold heal potion.

The whole point is about it's utility more than huge additional heal numbers - if they tacked it to level and/or a base stat like vitality and we didn't need to waste 2 legacies and a trait to up it from "####" to "sub-par", I would be happy. The game isn't going to sit at level 75 forever, and every time the cap goes up the skill usefulness goes down - How much would it suck at level 80? 90? 20k morale pool and still a 400-500 heal? It's the mechanics behind it not keeping up is what we're talking about.

CAB healing not scaling properly since S.O.A. was exactly my point, and that is why i am comparing it without the legacy effect.
the skill needs scaling to heal a decent amount with the skill traited alone, and the legacies to increase its effect even further and make it legendary and imo the %heal increase is unneeded if the skill scaled correctly.

i don't want it to be OP though just more in balance.

Yup exactly =)

I got a 75 belt with 6% threat and only 3 majors and did not put CaB cd on it and tbh... I don't miss it that much. For healing it's just a drop in the sea and none of the current, most played instances require me to use power pots.

Since we are talking about scaling, did anyone notice if the "take to heart" and "warriors heart" were scaled?

Both have been been increased IIRC, but I can't remember the 65 #'s as to compare a percentage value.

Originally Posted by AdarinOuest

True, but there is one legacy for it and you have to slot an extra trait to reduce the fervour cost. I don't have access to any numbers for a 75 champion though.

Bracing without trait and legacy is healing around 600 each 30 seconds (20 seconds if in glory) at level 75. Traited it is doing around 850 and traited and legacied it is doing 1k heal.
So, for soloing purposes, it is healing up to 50 morale per seconds.

If we compare to a traited and legacied Cab it is healing 33 morale each second (following previous numbres in this thread) and power healing 20 power each seconds, and these numbers added are suspicuously similar to Bracing Attack heal.

With current numbers a solo traited/equipped Champion is nearly as survibable as a Guardian (Guard receives less damage but Champion heals more) doing more DPS (BTW solo/tanking DPS for Champion will be lowered, I hope noticeably, with Glorious Exchange nerf).

But since Guardian primary role is tanking it should also be much better at soloing, it is my opinion that CaB should be buffed to be better than Bracing. And also it should be considered that Bracing requires to use a block reactive.

I think that CaB should be healing (fully traited and legacied) at least 1k per use and maybe 1200 to cound for the block event requirement (50 to 80 HPS).

If we consider Warden in the picture, currently they can do around 160 HPS by neglecting their BPE (losing around 10% BPE) and can maintaing around 65 HPS together with BPE. If Turbine wants to make Wardens as survivable as Guardians at end content by only increasing their partials and heals, then Warden should be able to sustain 300 HPS while keeping their BPE and partials up.

Problem with this change would be that, in order to be on par for raid content, Warden would then be able to solo easy fellowship content. Let's hope that Turbine add a 3rd change to Warden (for example critical/devastate mitigation) so their self heals are not buffed too much.

Personally I'd say that the Dev view of CaB has become that of a power restoring skill rather than a heal. At 75 it restores somewhat around 400 power, which is enough for us to unleash a few threat skills.

In a group I rarely use CaB to heal, simply bc I have a healer doing that job for me...if i would have to heal myself in a group something would be wrong with the game. And while soloing its not necessary, since we now have 13k+ health all the time. I doubt that a single mob could burn through that.

At last I do agree however that it needs to be scaled a bit, but more in the direction of power restoration, e.g. reducing power cost.

if the dev view is foe CAB to be a power restore skill then the traits & skill descriptions are wrong & the % heal legacy would be a power restore % instead.

i think it is obviously more effective as a power restore skill because our max power has not changed anywhere near as much as our max morale has and it is due more to neglect than intentional design that the morale heal is lacking.

the power restore is fine atm and we have a few methods to restore power as is, only OP power cost needs looking at for guards power in ROI and until a dev says CAB is now intended to be mainly a power restore skill i will disagree with scaling it for power and not morale.

imo when in a group if we have enough threat and can spare the reactives for CAB then why not use it ?
it makes things easier for the group healers who could dps if CAB is enough in certain fights, and if you use the legacies its best to use it or its a wasted investment.

CAB healing simply has not scaled well and is one of a few important changes guardians need and have needed for so long which myself and others pointed out before ROI when there was the month of (class) changes which we still have not had.

Originally Posted by MordecaiKell

But since Guardian primary role is tanking it should also be much better at soloing, it is my opinion that CaB should be buffed to be better than Bracing. And also it should be considered that Bracing requires to use a block reactive.

Without the ability to use heavy or light shields, a Champion cannot block and therefore would never have access to the skill if it required a block reactive.

There's roughly 100 morale difference between a 65 CaB and a 75 Cab, come on Turbine, how's about "normalizing" that, instead of taking away the good stuff????

Such a small thing to ask for, we know it's not happening in Update 5, so here's to refreshing the discussion for Update 6!

Accept it, Blues. Us guards take forever to kill things and forever to get killed. We're stubborn due to class mechanics - FACE THE CONSEQUENCES! lol

/signed

I agree with the OP and most of the discussion here. I'm hoping we can get this bumped up for U6. With our large jump in morale over this time, the CaB skill definately feels like its diminished in it's effectiveness.

What I can say is that I've been very well geared in Moria, SoM, and Roi; with all the changes to the classes and new instances, I find myself needing CaB more and more, particulary for power restoration (Take to Heart and CaB are pretty much on perma cool-down now). It the past if you got a big hit in a raid firing off Strength of Morale would a give few seconds of breathing time. Now I frequently find myself hitting SoM, CaB, and Warrior's fortitude to accomplish the same effect. Traiting for Controlled Breathing has gone from a nice-to-have to manditory.

I'm not asking for this to be OP'd, but I think a little bump up on both power and morale to CaB would make our big boss survivability a bit better, and definately make self power/morale restore a more fun aspect of playing the GRD.

Be careful what you ask for. Asking for attention and for changes has not resulted in good things for most folks lately. The more they leave guardians alone, the better.