Thread: RIP Crafting Alts

Originally Posted by MightyKOko

As I said earlier - Make your main an Explorer and your Scholar second to level up - problem solved.
And I got so much negative rep for that...

If the character who you level up first isn't an Explorer, well... you have been just stupid not using the best way to supply your low level alts with resources.
Explorer can get all Riders special recipes to produce the higher grade of raw resource directly to top level processed material for all your low level alts (except for the scholar). All other Riders recipes are just very expensive one-use variable-crit Guild recipes.

So you got neg rep for your strategy, which you shared, on how to supply lower level crafting alts with the high quality mats they need?!

./sighs

Originally Posted by MightyKOko

All other Riders recipes are just very expensive one-use variable-crit Guild recipes.

Almost, but not quite. For those who like to grow exotic forms of pipeweed (count me not among them), the Riders have a rep-gated recipe to grow such things, similar to the Dunlending recipe to grow "wildflowers" that enables Farmers to grow dye plants.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

I'm seeing this "issue" in an entirely different light, I guess.

Rise of Isengard as an expansion has quite a bit of content available to players who never buy the web expac or store QP (or future bundle). By rep-gating crafting, Turbine wants players to buy the QP/expac for the necessary path into the majority of that content, including crafting: That is, the net is going to be thrown wide across all/most paths of game advancement in order to achieve higher adoption of the purchased expac content. It follows that the rep-by-quest requirement must be level-gated.

I don't have RoI yet. At level 66, I've already crafted myself a full set of level 75 guild Théodred armour. Yes, this means I had to buy certain special things from the AH because I don't have a spot of RoI rep, but that's how it is. I find it amazing that I could even do that (VIP has guild access), since I'm used to having an entire chunk of content including levels and recipes blocked without the requisite expansion. Things are different now because of the whole weird F2P-hybrid store model and Turbine's decision to keep zones open to all.

And while I appreciate the desire to be completely self-sufficient (my captain is an armoursmith thus), the concept of "leveling" through game content is the central basis of this and I daresay all MMOs. The only way around this is to adapt or rely on others.

Also, I seriously never understood all the complaints about AH pricing. It's laissez faire "supply and demand," the most basic economic theory out there.

I also had couple of low level alts that I had no intention of leveling. I am now playing them and having a blast doing it. It is fun to play lowbies once in a while. If I have to level all my crafters to get the best recipes, then I see that as the cost of doing business.

Bonomir's post on page 5 pretty much says it all.

An amazing Blacksmith does not need to be an amazing swordsman, so long as he understands, with the help of swordsmen, what makes a sword great. Multiply this by all crafts.

That post earlier in the thread wondering how a hobbit in the shire could make westfold items presumably ignores that the hobbit has spent the '10,000 hours' crafting with successively harder to work materials supplied by the explorers who travelled the world finding the recipes and materials.

Sure, gate some item recipes, the secrets of Lothlorien's crafters ought to be preserved for various reasonable and lore related reasons, but while there's a system whereby you can be tier 7 ability as a craftsman you should expect to be able to craft items sufficiently close to those of the rep items.

It would also be reasonable to have it whereby one's ability to craft comes only with contact with those crafters in Lothlorien, Mirkwood and beyond.

However, if my main comes back from far lands to the Weaponsmith in the Shire with recipes and journals of lore and materials for the crafter to work with then that also seems reasonable.

The mix of the two systems at the moment seems the least rationale of these alternatives.

I have eight toons I play, and like the OP, I value being self sufficient and crafting my own gear.
Having said that however, the rep gating doesn't bother me. The game is so easy now one can run around butt naked and poorly equipped and still do the solo part just fine. It may take a little longer now to get the good craft gear, but it can be obtained.

No amount of uber gear will compensate for stupidity.

I agree with the OP they have ruined Crafting with T7. The lack of recipes standard recipes that should be easy to get are rep gated. You cant make a full set of any armor at any level between 66 and 74 and at 75 the only full set of anything is rep gated. Either with Guild or with faction. All of which is a sorry state for crafting.

Any recipe that is needed to make ingots, leather of any type that you need to make items with should not be rep gated either. I mean what were they thinking?

I have a character in every vocation master of his guild from lvls 20 -75 (not everyone mastered t7 because it is not needed, they will in time).

Turbine did a great move making crafting easy for low lvl alts = more guild unlocks from lotro store.

The current system is more than fair, I mean low level crafters shouldn't be allowed to pass t2 without help like the old system. I've earned t3 jeweller, cook, tailor and metalsmith in the old system and I will earn the right to use rep recipes.

Like others said: play the game

*cheers and dances like a hobbit*

I'm happy with this change. I was against removing the old gated system for reasons given: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...rafting-Quests!

I hated the old crafting quests but they served a purpose. Now I think the new reputation restriction is a much much better way of handling it. As I said in my thread: Crafting is not dynamic enough (as much as I do enjoy crafting) to compensate for the fallout from removing the gate quests. There is NO good reason for removing the gate quests except to make it "easier."

OP says: "There are some, maybe many, like me for whom one of the 'fun' aspects of MMOs in an ability to be self-sufficient, to kit out our characters with gear we've made ourselves."

It's a bit odd that an MMO (massive multiplayer) is "fun" BECAUSE we can play alone. While I certainly have fun playing alone (which is most of the time), crafting for myself is more about convenience than fun. If we feel compelled to create an army of alts to avoid interacting with others, then maybe crafting needs to be more dynamic, not easier. The reputation system adds some layer of dynamism and makes crafting a somewhat more integral part of the game (rather than a hobbit who has never left Michel Delving crafting items from Dunland).

I have many gripes about crafting. Most of my tailored items are of marginal value. Mats are so expensive in part because they are used solely to level. They have little value beyond that and are expensive precisely because people are buying them up to feed to alts or to quicken their own crafting pace - not because there is a thriving market for crafted items. Consumables obviously do well. And for all the complaining about high prices, one must realize the prices accord with the rate of collection for those resources vs demand.

While I won't be able to get my lvl 39 Supreme Scholar to tier 7 any time soon, I am meanwhile selling and giving away the scholar items I collect on my level 75. Does this bother you people who are tier 7 scholars? No, this helps you. Scholar resources would be more expensive if me and others were diverting the resources to our own alts. There is undoubtedly more trading of resources we otherwise cannot use.

I want less grindy crafting. I want alterable stats, customizable armor sets, more levels of critical success. What I 'do not want' is crafting comprised of buying mats(grumbling about their expense), mailing them to an alt, sitting in a crafting hall with that alt watching the little blue bar, and exclaiming how ever fun it is that I do not have to interact with others for crafted items - not that I haven't done these things...

>.>

<.<

It's silly to argue for socialization in the crafting when the game itself is designed to offer the solo experience as its default. Any class can easily solo to max-level, and miss out on very little of the content. Any large raid guild will probably have enough crafters to satisfy its needs, but the game isn't designed to cater to the "group content medium kinship" or "raid content large kinship".

The "only one guild" to a character thing is certainly the worst and most limiting error that was made. There are plenty of others. Nothing was gained in RoI. I don't see any winners amongst the players regardless of your play style. Smiths for Weapons and Armor are essentially obsolete as of level 45, except for LIs. Westfold crafting is mostly a disaster, a lot of the recipes are not consistent by comparison to the other available gear when you look at the other tiers of crafting (not that itemization in this game has *ever* been consistent or even good across the board).

They took a lot of the fun out of farming with the new "tier seeds", and the elimination of the hybrid pipeweed farming. Overall, the last 9 months have been pretty much a failing grade from my perspective.

Originally Posted by Crispian

OP says: "There are some, maybe many, like me for whom one of the 'fun' aspects of MMOs in an ability to be self-sufficient, to kit out our characters with gear we've made ourselves."

It's a bit odd that an MMO (massive multiplayer) is "fun" BECAUSE we can play alone.

This has nothing at all to do with 'soloing', you chose to throw in that red herring. 'Multiplayer' can mean many things, I 'interact' with others in many ways, that has nothing to do with the destruction of crafting alts.

Also, it seems you need reminding the 'G' in MMORPG doesn't stand for GROUP, nothing in the acronym dictates ANY sort of interaction with others is required per se.

Interesting that the previous two responses both glommed onto the solo vs interactive experience portion of my response and both misrepresented/misunderstood it.

Winnower, I said nothing about "socialization in the crafting." I did talk about general interaction via the marketplace. That you think only one "guild" per character is the "worst and most limiting error" shows a lack of understanding about the main purposes of kinships. Anyhow, it had nothing to do with anything. And then you throw in your dissatisfaction with tier 7 recipes (something I share, but is neither her nor there in the debate over alt crafting).

Kerin_Eldar, interesting that you single-quote "soloing" even though I never used that word. And you accuse me of throwing in that "red herring" even though I never said anything about soloing. If you notice what I was responding to, the reason for me emphasizing the word "BECAUSE," and if you read the sentence in context, it becomes clear that I was merely pushing back against the idea that grinding out crafting alts to mail items to other characters = fun. I am not arguing against enjoying the game as a largely solo experience. I am not arguing against crafting one's own items. I am arguing against the necessity and "fun" of crafting alts.

You sillilly write: "Also, it seems you need reminding the 'G' in MMORPG doesn't stand for GROUP, nothing in the acronym dictates ANY sort of interaction with others is required per se."

It is a cute game with words, but the NATURE of the game is one where you interact with people. Certainly you can ignore all kinds of requests, stay away from AHs, etc, but the fact remains that it is an MMO with restrictions on each character's crafting abilities (for the reason that it's an MMO).

The fact that the biggest gripes are that it is a bit less convenient or that people don't want to interact with others shows why this is a positive development. If you wish LOTRO to be a true solo experience, perhaps request that each character be able to take up as many areas of crafting as he desires. Then you wouldn't need the silly alts at all!

quoted:

Winnower, I said nothing about "socialization in the crafting." I did talk about general interaction via the marketplace. That you think only one "guild" per character is the "worst and most limiting error" shows a lack of understanding about the main purposes of kinships.

endquote:

Your statement is sufficiently ambiguous that I'm not gonna jump on you about not knowing the difference between a crafting guild and a kinship. However, you go on with more. You know nothing about me, or my understanding of the "the main purposes of kinships", and making that asinine statement ultimately says more about you than me.

Originally Posted by Winnower

quoted:

Winnower, I said nothing about "socialization in the crafting." I did talk about general interaction via the marketplace. That you think only one "guild" per character is the "worst and most limiting error" shows a lack of understanding about the main purposes of kinships.

endquote:

Your statement is sufficiently ambiguous that I'm not gonna jump on you about not knowing the difference between a crafting guild and a kinship. However, you go on with more. You know nothing about me, or my understanding of the "the main purposes of kinships", and making that asinine statement ultimately says more about you than me.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Kinships are regularly called "guilds," as I'm sure you've noticed. I thought you were trying to make some analogy or something. I think there are many ways crafting can be improved, the limitation you bring up is not tied to crafting alts. I said nothing about your personal failings, but believing you were talking about kinships that would reveal a lack of understanding about kinships. Anyways, you continue to fight over the small points and misunderstandings. I think it's good to limit crafting for the reasons given.

Crispian, a nice response, thank you.

I believe that limiting each toon to joining only one crafting guild is directly and importantly related to the crafting alt thing. I also believe that the somewhat bizarre method of assigning 3 rigid crafting skills to each "profession" is related.

Both of these are design "features" which have significantly affected decisions of many players to have a lot of crafting alts. If my "historian" could be a member of the scholar's guild, and the weaponsmith's guild ((Alas, though Gardening has significant focus in JRR's books, Farming has no guild, and has no Gardening titles, Not sure why it's in this set anyway.)) then I wouldn't need a separate character to have reliable access.

And no, on a practical basis, you can't rely on the Weaponsmiths in your kinship. Or the Cooks. Unless you have a regular player with extended online time who prefers to do crafting and nothing else (and I know people like this - I have 2 friends in a kinship that Only And Ever log on to craft, then disappear) then they just don't have time to do that and enjoy the game too. I constantly need something from my myriad crafters. If someone is on in my kin who can do it that's great, but I really don't like asking other people constantly to: make me stacks of cooked food, trail food, battle/warding scrolls, shield spikes, etc. Making it myself is the primary solution, and often, the only alternative.

I even need 2-3 characters just to be able to farm the nodes for the basic materials. I need an Historian to be able to farm scholar mats, and I need at *least* an explorer to be able to farm mine & wood nodes. At least the darn historian has track crops since the price of Indigo and Woad and any other useful crop that you can't farm is absurd on my server's AH.

In my opinion, crafting is as poorly designed and set up as anywhere I've seen it. It's like a multiple trauma patient with breaks in random places on his body. The design and implementation of it - all along the way - has things in it which have contributed to the problem of crafting alts. When they start making significant changes at high level to the crafting process that directly affect the choices that people have invested *years* of time adjusting to, then it is only natural that people are going to get justly upset.

If you don't "get that" by this point, then clearly we see things in waaaay different ways. It's not small, it's not inconsequential, it's not just "misunderstandings".

By the way, while I'm at it, it is often the so-called small issues that make or break an RL relationship, or a business relationship, or many people's decision to play a particular game. I'd call that pretty significant.

80% of the fun of this game is making stuff for your kinmates. It is just asinine and insulting to call that leeching.

To give is better than to receive.

Sorry to resurrect a thread, but... I think one of the problems with this discussion is that lots of the details about this are implied but never specified here, and players with different play styles may not even notice certain facets of the change. Regardless of your feelings about Turbine's decision, you have to admit it's tough luck for the OP, who just has a personal play style like anyone else, which has been messed with. So let's have a little empathy; none of us like having our recreation impeded here. That's the key: This isn't government, it's recreation.

I've recently come back to the game, starting fresh, and wanted to plan my crafting stuff out once and for all. I, too, hate leveling my alts... Simply because none are as fun for me as my Warden. I also play a Rune-Keeper, which I started for the purpose of helping some friends who joined, but quite enjoy as well and plan to level simultaneously

Now, I was fortunate enough to select Explorer for my main, and Historian for my RK. I also have a low-level Armourer, Tinker, and Armsman... I don't plan to guild-up the metalsmith, since I don't play heavy armor mains but need the accessories every now and then. Also, I'm OK with not having a guilded weaponsmith, since a guilded woodworker can make perfectly acceptable weapons. And, I'm OK with non-crit food, so my Tinker can handle that with farmed goods from the Scholar.

Anyway, the thing that caught my eye was that I just so happen to have two mains which will be able to handle prospecting, forestry, farming, and scholar materials... Does this mean I'm set for tier 7 when the time comes? Because that's a fortuitous coincidence.

Originally Posted by Victiswolf

The problem is that they are changing the system after 5 years. Over that time a lot of players have invested time and energy into crafting alts.

Forcing players to be social for the purpose of crafting may seem like a good idea but since theres no forced grouping as you level i don't say how its right. Would players be ok with forced grouping to level up?

^^^^ This... Its turned 4-5 toons of my wife and mine into never log again login screen candy :-(

Originally Posted by Glimlioin

^^^^ This... Its turned 4-5 toons of my wife and mine into never log again login screen candy :-(

Even more than that, I now only log in to do the festivals

Trying to force people to level their alts has nothing to do with rewarding top level players, killing off low level crafting alts or preserving the "economy". They just see a way to increase the time players spend on their alts so they have time to get new content out.

That isn't a bad goal, it just comes at the cost of some players enjoyment.

I like the crafting side of the game, I enjoy playing and leveling also - just not all the time. I enjoy the journey, I don't enjoy the end game raids though (not top of the line computer, never know when I can play and for how long, don't need the stress). If I had to level all my crafters to max or close to it, well the game would be pretty much over for me, so why put in that effort for the same result?

I have always known LOTRO would be my last MMO, and I have no desire to start another game, so now my go to computer game is spider solitaire and bejeweled. Oh well, their loss.

This issue just got compounded by the announcement of another 10 levels with RoR in the fall. Now it's just my guess but this could mean

Another crafting tier
More rep gated recipes
Further levelling of alts to keep crafting current
More storage issues

OK, please tell me something because I'm confused here...

Everything I'm reading says it requires THREE high-level gatherers to get around the rep-gating issue. But by my count, it only requires two: An Explorer (forestry, prospecting), and an Historian (scholar, farming). Am I missing something?

Originally Posted by rcavanah

OK, please tell me something because I'm confused here...

Everything I'm reading says it requires THREE high-level gatherers to get around the rep-gating issue. But by my count, it only requires two: An Explorer (forestry, prospecting), and an Historian (scholar, farming). Am I missing something?

For *gathering* no, for some of the better recipes, yes. There are Riders rep recipes for level 75 trail food. For the general food, the Guild batch recipes take care of the issue.

Which is to say...you don't need rep for Farming, but it is desirable for Cooking.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Well, for those who feel level 15 characters should be able to craft just about anything (via the guild), today's patch notes should make you happy. . .

The following recipes are now auto-granted and have had the reputation restriction removed:

• Tome of Wisdom Recipe
• High Quality Calenard Ingot Recipe
• Finshed Leather Recipe
• Reinforced Birch Board Recipe

The "improved" versions of these recipes still require Friend standing with Theodred's Riders.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Well, for those who feel level 15 characters should be able to craft just about anything (via the guild), today's patch notes should make you happy. . .

Yes, we're very happy.

Thank you Turbine!
My L53 Forester can now process again all the hides for my L73 Tailor (and also the wood for himself as a Woodworker).

Still I don't like the fact of having 3 types of processed leather (or skarn ingots or whatever). Specially when the pre-process is done by an alt (Forester, Prospector...), it is a pain in the a$#@ having to store in the vault three more types of crafting materials and/or needing to switch toons to prepare the materials before any crafting. I preferred the previous method, where that intermediate process was done in the last crafting profession.

Originally Posted by avaaescaner

Still I don't like the fact of having 3 types of processed leather (or skarn ingots or whatever). Specially when the pre-process is done by an alt (Forester, Prospector...), it is a pain in the a$#@ having to store in the vault three more types of crafting materials and/or needing to switch toons to prepare the materials before any crafting. I preferred the previous method, where that intermediate process was done in the last crafting profession.

To me, that's totally OK compared to the rep-gating, though. I'm OK with any amount of hoop-jumping, as long as it's in small doses.

As for the others with the grudge about this, I honestly don't get the people who say "Turbine shouldn't let whiners change the game," because THAT is whining in itself. Besides, they're a company whose sole purpose is to make some mad coin by listening to their customers. I'm sorry, but this game isn't about "hard work" for me. I don't criticize anyone for being addicted to the game, because I am too, but that's one specific thing I will criticize: Begrudging others for getting an easier ride when you "worked so hard" on it. If you do that, you should maybe consider your situation, and try another ambition, because if you apply the mentality to something else you will totally kick ### at it. Effort, I get... Effort to complete something is totally valid. The effort it takes to level crafting is, in itself, a fairly tall order for a casual player. But painstaking work, to level multiple characters, when you have no desire to do so, JUST because you like crafting and want to do as much of it as possible? Geez... Why should anyone be forced to do that?

So now, if you put the effort into it that you seem to want to, you can totally have the upper hand using the Theodred improved recipes, and still come out on top. Most casual crafters avoid the AH altogether, so we're no competition... In the long run, you still have the same upper hand, and you're selling to the same AH suckers as before. You may not have 10,000 gold... But isn't 9,000 OK if it's still more than everyone else?