Thread: Is LM a slow motion class?

Its only I that feels LMs slower than before?
It's annoying looking at your target for like 3 seconds to land a skill, because of setbacks (when someone hits you, your skill induction time roll back some).
And stuns aren't that good now too.

I like the class concept, but i thing we need a way to wipe this "slow motion" effect. Suggestions?

Thanks!

Solution : stop getting hit??

Other solution: Use Call to the Valars. It resets some cooldowns and gives a 10 immunity to inductions setbacks.

the only reason it would feel "slower than before" is if you unequipped induction reducing traits. nothing about the class mechanics changed. if anything, the changes to Call to the Valar have improved the situation.

the LM doesn't feel slow motion if the skills/traits/tactics available to the class are properly utilized -- it's just a different attack play style that might not be right for everyone.

It doesn't seem overly slow to me... I have created and deleted a loremaster character multiple times, with mixed reactions to it... now, after learning to properly use a pet on my captain, and finding the fun factor in skirmishes with a soldier in as well, I can't wait to continue leveling up my loremaster...

I like the LM class, is my main, leveled to 75, know all the skills, so i like the class.
But the relation between stuns/inductions was better before, cuz the mobs had lower hp and all. But the mobs actually, for the ones that are playing endgame content, are 13/14k morale or more. in this situation the battle reaches a point where the stuns aren't that effective, and starts a dps race, then the annoying thing starts: click a buton, whait for ur skill land 2-3x the induction time. Call to valar have a 5 minutes cd, imo it where good if was 1 minute cd.

In my opinion maybe the relation betwen CC/Dps/Inductions needs to be rethought.

But that is a opinion of a very noob lvl 75 LM, that dont plays superman mode and dont solo Balrogs and etc, thanks.

Originally Posted by Nasgard

Solution : stop getting hit??

This.

Storm-Lore has 2m CD, enough to get a Lightning off. Sticky Tar 1m30s. Stuns have the same duration as before, so nothing has changed.

CttV is an emergency skill. It should stay at 5m.

Mob morale at 75 is ~5.9k, with changes to stats and high Will damage is increased enough to compensate. I can still blow up 5 mobs at once in seconds if I choose to.

If a fight against a Signature starts becoming a DPS race, you're doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by grinko.at

This.

Storm-Lore has 2m CD, enough to get a Lightning off. Sticky Tar 1m30s. Stuns have the same duration as before, so nothing has changed.

CttV is an emergency skill. It should stay at 5m.

Mob morale at 75 is ~5.9k, with changes to stats and high Will damage is increased enough to compensate. I can still blow up 5 mobs at once in seconds if I choose to.

If a fight against a Signature starts becoming a DPS race, you're doing it wrong.

I disagree, but thanks for the opinion anyway.

Use roots (including Cracked Earth) to crowd control enemies and give you breathing space.

There is a red trait that reduces inductions of some of your skills, consider slotting that (not sure what it's called, I always get them confused - Harmony with Nature?)

Make your pets work for you. The bear is now much more powerful and able to take aggro using its increased damage. It can take aggro on two mobs now if you combine its damage dealing abilities and Roar skill.

The Sabertooth cat is good for taking multiple aggro too, but you have to set up the fight properly - spend the first few seconds debuffing before you start to DPS to give you a few extra valuable moments of tanking.

Call To The Valar as mentioned is very useful because of the induction immunity, but you only get 10 seconds of that every 5 min so it should be saved for emergencies.

In a pinch you can use the Lynx's AoE skills to try take aggro as well, though that requires clicking on its hotbar and you might be too busy clicking your own skill buttons in particularly hectic situations.

Air-Lore your pet to slightly increase its aggro and damage (from the damage reflect effect). SoW: Rage is quite powerful at lv 75 and will give you significantly more damage and more flanks.

March of the Ents is an excellent skill to have because of its significant AoE damage and long lasting stun. Use it to give yourself time to cast Lightning Storm followed by Improved Sticky Gourd (if you have it) or Cracked Earth.

Blinding Flash (even the 5 sec version) is useful on a single target. You may want to trait it so that it has no induction, which would allow you and the Bear (for example) to manage 3 mobs very easily. Induction setback when facing 1 or even 2 mobs is not always too severe.

Debuff! We have skills that increase an opponent's miss chance and attack duration (SoP Command, Gust of Wind, Air-Lore, Fire-Lore). Obviously, if an opponent is missing more often and taking longer to perform each attack that gives you valuable time to complete your inductions.

Combine these strategies and your problems should be alleviated. It is quite possible for a LM to take on amazing numbers of mobs at a time, though in practice when dealing with large groups our skills will be resisted by some mobs, so each situation will be slightly different. Hope that helps.

My loremaster is my tailor and i need to get him to freind standing with Dunland, but the thought fills me with pain.

The wierd thing is he was my 2nd char to 50, back in the Shadows of Angmar days i really enjoyed playing the class. What has changed? Well, doing the Dunland quests a 3rd time is always going to drag more than 2nd time around. It was also my first spell casting character, so perhaps the novelty value. Also, soloing was harder then, the loremaster could handle situations that would have got my other characters killed - yes even my guardian, who wasn't yet full-grown.

Not being able to cast while moving, and having to deal with inductions now just feels like a nuisance. Yes i can overcome these drawbacks with meticulous planning, but compared to how my other characters play

guardian - death by a thousand clicks, pull everything on the map and aoe it
minstrel - boom and zoom
captain - go in swinging
champ - ultimate killing machine

it's no fun having to treat every pull like amateur bomb disposal.

I'm not really finding the loremaster has a sophistication advantage to overcome the awkwardness. Soloing is the same few skills (less interruptible) skills repeated over and over, without a skill progression mechanism like block/parry chains, ballad tiers.

I think they gave loremasters all these induction bars to remind them they were a squishy class. Back in shadows of angmar, my loremaster had 30% b/p/e, similar morale to a guardian, and only 15% less common mitigation than a heavy. Nowdays we don't need reminding ! There is plenty of incentive to use crowd control on difficult pulls (but will that save you from mega-fast respawn?), use your debuffs, and stun wherever possible (does damage, gives a breathing space from incoming damage) quite apart from having to worry about induction pushbacks.

Originally Posted by xeria

Use roots (including Cracked Earth) to crowd control enemies and give you breathing space.

There is a red trait that reduces inductions of some of your skills, consider slotting that (not sure what it's called, I always get them confused - Harmony with Nature?)

Make your pets work for you. The bear is now much more powerful and able to take aggro using its increased damage. It can take aggro on two mobs now if you combine its damage dealing abilities and Roar skill.

The Sabertooth cat is good for taking multiple aggro too, but you have to set up the fight properly - spend the first few seconds debuffing before you start to DPS to give you a few extra valuable moments of tanking.

Call To The Valar as mentioned is very useful because of the induction immunity, but you only get 10 seconds of that every 5 min so it should be saved for emergencies.

In a pinch you can use the Lynx's AoE skills to try take aggro as well, though that requires clicking on its hotbar and you might be too busy clicking your own skill buttons in particularly hectic situations.

Air-Lore your pet to slightly increase its aggro and damage (from the damage reflect effect). SoW: Rage is quite powerful at lv 75 and will give you significantly more damage and more flanks.

March of the Ents is an excellent skill to have because of its significant AoE damage and long lasting stun. Use it to give yourself time to cast Lightning Storm followed by Improved Sticky Gourd (if you have it) or Cracked Earth.

Blinding Flash (even the 5 sec version) is useful on a single target. You may want to trait it so that it has no induction, which would allow you and the Bear (for example) to manage 3 mobs very easily. Induction setback when facing 1 or even 2 mobs is not always too severe.

Debuff! We have skills that increase an opponent's miss chance and attack duration (SoP Command, Gust of Wind, Air-Lore, Fire-Lore). Obviously, if an opponent is missing more often and taking longer to perform each attack that gives you valuable time to complete your inductions.

Combine these strategies and your problems should be alleviated. It is quite possible for a LM to take on amazing numbers of mobs at a time, though in practice when dealing with large groups our skills will be resisted by some mobs, so each situation will be slightly different. Hope that helps.

Harmony with nature that reduces induction of some skills in 25%.
Thanks for this starter guide, but my problem isn't with my play style.
There is no one skill on my skill bar that i don't use frequently. But the what Im trying to say is this (I know that the name of the class is Lore-master, that it have pets, etc. mine is lvl 75 at moment):

The 2 stuns that allow me land 2 induction skills are Ents Go To War and test of will, Ents have a cd of 2 minutes, and ToW a long induction (don't compensate to use in the middle of the battle, because it will set backs a lot, then LoTRD is better in combat, more dmg and all).
I can root ok, i can do a lot of things, i know, i have a LM at lvl 75. I have like no problems doing 1x1 on one mob at my level.
But NO ONE class have problem 1x1.
But if i tryed all i can, and a thing is still hitting me (some mobs dont stun too), the slow motion begins.
Putting in paper, every time a thing is hitting me, i fell the slow motion mode, and a question, who is untouchable in this game? Try all you can, be a special with 2 brains and with more knowledge that all the LMs in the worlds, you WILL be touched, and your inductions will be setback. In this game wins who kills the opponent first, and who is an advanced class, that need to thing about environment and etc to start a battle, that needs to control opponents, doing it a lot slower than classes that just pewpew, or the new pewpew+heal, then is something wrong.

Alright, when you are standing toe-to-toe with a mob and can't CC him and you don't want to kite, there is another alternative.

Let your Bear tank for you.

To pull this off, you will have to trait 4 deep into KoA + Noble Savage, with Healer/LoH/Master of Beasts/Hardy Companion slotted. Yes, that means no more 5 MoNF.


You need bear food and a maxed SotW:Rage legacy on a buff book. Both signs and Air-Lore up. Then give your bear like 10 seconds to get some threat while you debuff, then you can slowly ramp up damage. This way, you won't get hit at all, and if you do manage to pull the mob off the bear, you can use the force taunt or non-traited Inner Flame, or just finish it quickly.

That was what I used to beat signatures while leveling. The option is there, but you cannot go MoNF or all-out DPS, so this may be too slow for you as well. But you won't get hit, no induction setbacks, and the bear will have more morale and better mitigations than you. With BoH thrown in, he can tank the Overseers in Isengard.


But a big LM revamp that drastically reduces inductions - 99% not gonna happen. LMs have the tools to deal with inductions - but you can't have MoNF level damage on top of that. That is RK territory.

Originally Posted by grinko.at

But a big LM revamp that drastically reduces inductions - 99% not gonna happen. LMs have the tools to deal with inductions - but you can't have MoNF level damage on top of that. That is RK territory.

I'd be happy with no inductions and low-to-moderate damage. I think the problem is i like to tank the mobs myself with flank heals from the eagle. I tried a 4koa and 3 monf build (all the induction reducing ones) and the damage was modest, single target, but beset by induction pushbacks.

As you say i need to either let the pet tank, or trait Monf and put up with the induction problems to get great dps. At the moment i'm having to deal with induction pushbacks in order to do weak dps, the worst of all worlds.

Originally Posted by Nemulas

I'd be happy with no inductions and low-to-moderate damage. I think the problem is i like to tank the mobs myself with flank heals from the eagle. I tried a 4koa and 3 monf build (all the induction reducing ones) and the damage was modest, single target, but beset by induction pushbacks.

As you say i need to either let the pet tank, or trait Monf and put up with the induction problems to get great dps. At the moment i'm having to deal with induction pushbacks in order to do weak dps, the worst of all worlds.

Sure, we need to think a lot already in some situations to be efficient. That slows the process, and with all that stuff of inductions, think about, need to CC a lot, the kills are too slow, LMs are being kinda boring... Some hits are high, but counting on setbacks, inductions, cooldowns, etc, our dps (MoNF line too) is low ;/

comments like these:

Originally Posted by Advanced

In this game wins who kills the opponent first, and who is an advanced class, that need to thing about environment and etc to start a battle, that needs to control opponents, doing it a lot slower than classes that just pewpew, or the new pewpew+heal, then is something wrong.

Originally Posted by Nemulas

I'd be happy with no inductions and low-to-moderate damage.

Originally Posted by Advanced

Sure, we need to think a lot already in some situations to be efficient. That slows the process, and with all that stuff of inductions, think about, need to CC a lot, the kills are too slow, LMs are being kinda boring...

Originally Posted by Nemulas

Not being able to cast while moving, and having to deal with inductions now just feels like a nuisance. Yes i can overcome these drawbacks with meticulous planning, but compared to how my other characters play

guardian - death by a thousand clicks, pull everything on the map and aoe it
minstrel - boom and zoom
captain - go in swinging
champ - ultimate killing machine

it's no fun having to treat every pull like amateur bomb disposal.

I'm not really finding the loremaster has a sophistication advantage to overcome the awkwardness. Soloing is the same few skills (less interruptible) skills repeated over and over, without a skill progression mechanism like block/parry chains, ballad tiers.

indicate the real problem here. and it's not the class. it's the player.

the people complaining in this thread don't seem to want to actually play a LM (and one actually comes out and says that). they want to play a hunter or RK or guard or something else, and their complaints ultimately come down to asking for the LM to be modified to play more like those classes.

well, i think the vast, vast majority of LMs will come back with a resounding "no thanks" to that profoundly cookie-cutter suggestion.

not every class is right for every person. rather than trying to make every class play in the same way, as some of these people seem to be asking, people should choose the class that favors their preferred playstyle, rather than trying to transform other classes into something they're not intended to be.

to the above two posters in particular, the LM class is clearly not right for you (as at least one of you has already announced). no harm, no foul, everyone has their favorite playstyle. but that doesn't mean the class is broken -- it means you should choose a different class. you should choose a "faster" class like a hunter or RK or whatever fits better with your preferred approach rather than trying to turn the LM into one of those classes in a way it was never intended to be.

the LM is perfectly fine in its current mold and does not need any changes that would make it play like some other classes, as a very small minority in threads such as this one has suggested.

and, finally, to repeat, nothing has changed with RoI to make the LM feel "slower." if anything, quite the opposite. player error should not be the basis of class changes.

Originally Posted by john_anthony

not every class is right for every person. rather than trying to make every class play in the same way, as some of these people seem to be asking, people should choose the class that favors their preferred playstyle, rather than trying to transform other classes into something they're not intended to be...

the LM is perfectly fine in its current mold and does not need any changes that would make it play like some other classes, as a very small minority in threads such as this one has suggested.

and, finally, to repeat, nothing has changed with RoI to make the LM feel "slower." if anything, quite the opposite. .

Agreed. This thread and similar ones make me grind my teeth.

I am happy with my LM, and appreciate having some weaknesses and limitations. That's what makes it interesting. I have a RK, a hunter, a mini, and a guard. I can't play any of them for more than a few minutes before I miss my LM. I don't want my LM to become a RK.

Or maybe my mistake is not going to the RK forums and asking the devs to make them to be more like LMs.

I dont want the LM to be a RK too, but do all slow is boring, if it was not boring you never created other classes.

Originally Posted by Advanced

I dont want the LM to be a RK too, but do all slow is boring, if it was not boring you never created other classes.

Thanks. This is great example of the logical fallacy called affirming the consequent. Can I have your permission to use it in my research methods class?

I have been complaining right after RoI went live about the LM feeling slow. We are now a month into the expansion and it seems like a lot of players did their race to lv 75 and went dormant again. The lag isn't as bad as it was in the first two weeks. And guess what? The 'slow' feeling disappeared.

I'm pretty much certain that any sense sluggishness has nothing to do with the changes they made to our class, but with server lag. Or with changing to the Lore Master from another class. My lore-master feels slow compared to my rune keeper, but once you get used to the flow again, you will stop noticing.

Originally Posted by anteku

Agreed. This thread and similar ones make me grind my teeth.

I am happy with my LM, and appreciate having some weaknesses and limitations. That's what makes it interesting. I have a RK, a hunter, a mini, and a guard. I can't play any of them for more than a few minutes before I miss my LM. I don't want my LM to become a RK.

Yes, I can so relate. I keep looking at the minimap all the time to check where my pet is, only to realise I don't have one... LOL The world doesn't feel right witout the pet, does it?

Originally Posted by Minulinnwen

Yes, I can so relate. I keep looking at the minimap all the time to check where my pet is, only to realise I don't have one... LOL The world doesn't feel right witout the pet, does it?

Lol so true, it feels very lonely on my alts, while exploring without a pet

OP is obviously a troll.
No one can be that dense.

Stop feeding it.

Originally Posted by BirdofHermes

OP is obviously a troll.
No one can be that dense.

Stop feeding it.

So you are lazy to argument, then come here to call me a troll?
All the ones that don't share your way of thinking are trolls?
lol go have a beer.

Originally Posted by Advanced

So you are lazy to argument, then come here to call me a troll?
All the ones that don't share your way of thinking are trolls?
lol go have a beer.

I'm going to hate myself for this later, but here goes...


Others have tried reasoning with you. They brought up valid arguments. You simply rejected them.
My LM is my main. Like nearly every single LMs out there, I have no problems in PvP nor PvE. I love playing LM.
You on the other hand are experiencing difficulty, and thus want the class completely changed to fit your pretty-little-unique-snowflake needs?
There is nothing wrong with the class, but perhaps there is something wrong with the way you play it.

Play a different class or try harder on LM is all I can suggest.



There, I took the bait. If henceforth you keep spouting nonsense from your food-hole I will be 100% certain you are a troll.

Originally Posted by Advanced

So you are lazy to argument, then come here to call me a troll?
All the ones that don't share your way of thinking are trolls?
lol go have a beer.

Do you even read our posts?

Originally Posted by BirdofHermes

I'm going to hate myself for this later, but here goes...


Others have tried reasoning with you. They brought up valid arguments. You simply rejected them.
My LM is my main. Like nearly every single LMs out there, I have no problems in PvP nor PvE. I love playing LM.
You on the other hand are experiencing difficulty, and thus want the class completely changed to fit your pretty-little-unique-snowflake needs?
There is nothing wrong with the class, but perhaps there is something wrong with the way you play it.

Play a different class or try harder on LM is all I can suggest.



There, I took the bait. If henceforth you keep spouting nonsense from your food-hole I will be 100% certain you are a troll.

Lol now you will say that we dont have inductions and they dont setback?

Originally Posted by treef

Do you even read our posts?

No he doesnt.....

Its probably better to stop wasting the time and energy....

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

No he doesnt.....

Its probably better to stop wasting the time and energy....

Yes, i read, and now?

Well, stepping aside from this pretty you're-a-troll-NO-U discussion, I think some changes really may be implemented. It's not about our inductions and damaging skills, its about our CC and debuff skills.
We have a lot of insta-cast skills, but (except of Signs) have to stand still while casting them. Isn't it a little strange? Burgs can Riddle on move, but I must STOP and throw BF to enemy even i trait&improve it. So does the roots.
I think its not a bad idea at least consider to make this skills... well... usable on the move.

Originally Posted by Kantor_omicron

Well, stepping aside from this pretty you're-a-troll-NO-U discussion, I think some changes really may be implemented. It's not about our inductions and damaging skills, its about our CC and debuff skills.
We have a lot of insta-cast skills, but (except of Signs) have to stand still while casting them. Isn't it a little strange? Burgs can Riddle on move, but I must STOP and throw BF to enemy even i trait&improve it. So does the roots.
I think its not a bad idea at least consider to make this skills... well... usable on the move.

It's really very easy to explain the difference.

A burglar is an acrobatic fighter who relies on positioning, stealth, and mobility in a battle. The Lore-master, on the other hand, is the kind of class that plants feet solidly apart, smashes staff on the ground, and yells "You shall not pass!". So why would you expect them to behave identically?

What you are talking about (being able to use more skills on the move) has been brought up before. Many times over the years. The simple answer is that is not what LMs are about at all. The devs did not randomly make our skills require us to be standing still.

Originally Posted by xeria

It's really very easy to explain the difference.

A burglar is an acrobatic fighter who relies on positioning, stealth, and mobility in a battle. The Lore-master, on the other hand, is the kind of class that plants feet solidly apart, smashes staff on the ground, and yells "You shall not pass!". So why would you expect them to behave identically?

What you are talking about (being able to use more skills on the move) has been brought up before. Many times over the years. The simple answer is that is not what LMs are about at all. The devs did not randomly make our skills require us to be standing still.

lol, the game is so fast now that if u stand and just "u shall not pass" u will be get kicked on the face.
we need more mobility, the need to stop and induction to land skills make things so sloooow that i get sleepy

Originally Posted by xeria

...
What you are talking about (being able to use more skills on the move) has been brought up before. Many times over the years. The simple answer is that is not what LMs are about at all. The devs did not randomly make our skills require us to be standing still.

Well I'm not a smartest man of the world huh? Of course this suggestion has been laid many times before, no doubt.
I'm not comlaining about "been slow", But isn't it strange that some debuffs are standing-still-dependent (fire-lore, wind-lore) and some are not (Signs)?

But... well, you're right after all. LM is LM, not a trickster-with-a-dagger. I just think sometimes about some mobility while casting instant skills, my opinion is that it may be reasonable.

Originally Posted by Advanced

lol, the game is so fast now that if u stand and just "u shall not pass" u will be get kicked on the face.
we need more mobility, the need to stop and induction to land skills make things so sloooow that i get sleepy

Apart from the you being sleepy part, the above is simply not true. LMs don't need to move as much as other classes in a fight because we can control each encounter, and as a result our skills are set up a certain way. It's what I was talking about in my previous post.

Again: you adapt to the class. The class does not adapt to you, especially if you've only been playing it for a short time.

Originally Posted by xeria

Apart from the you being sleepy part, the above is simply not true. LMs don't need to move as much as other classes in a fight because we can control each encounter, and as a result our skills are set up a certain way. It's what I was talking about in my previous post.

Again: you adapt to the class. The class does not adapt to you, especially if you've only been playing it for a short time.

Why some thinks that LM is difficult to master? lol it can be done, and a lot fast.
It isn't difficult to figure out skills, strategies and etc. this dont need a PhD.
This points where pointed just now. Why do you think I never came here lvl 20/30/50/65?
I just came here now, lvl 75, because its only now that these problems exists. Because a LM isnt a think that can be analysed alone, but it need to be analysed in the interaction with the actual environment. And these problems are a reflect of this actual environment interaction (Isengard).

Originally Posted by Advanced

Why some thinks that LM is difficult to master? lol it can be done, and a lot fast.
It isn't difficult to figure out skills, strategies and etc.

Well this certainly explains a lot of the tripe you have been posting....

Why do you think you are having problems with the class now?
It is because you
Think you did not need to
Learn earlier how to play by reading the forums.
Especially because you think since you joined in April 2011 and leveled to 75
So others, who have been here for 4 years or more
Say you need to relearn your class, you resist.

More reading in the forums, for those of levels 20/30/45/65
And even those for levels 1-10
Need you to do.

Originally Posted by xeria

Well this certainly explains a lot of the tripe you have been posting....

Its for some like you know that this isn't a problem with the players. Because you say "i do 12412515 thing at same time, and kill a lot of things", and im telling you that you aren't Einstein just because u know how to click some buttons like i and a lot of other LMs knows. Our problem is based on a context, game strategies cap, and more.

Originally Posted by Darlgon

Why do you think you are having problems with the class now?
It is because you
Think you did not need to
Learn earlier how to play by reading the forums.
Especially because you think since you joined in April 2011 and leveled to 75
So others, who have been here for 4 years or more
Say you need to relearn your class, you resist.

More reading in the forums, for those of levels 20/30/45/65
And even those for levels 1-10
Need you to do.

lol and you think that if you play 4 years, I can't beat your skills?
You can play 4 years, 1 hour per day, some can play 1 year, 10 hours a day. Who have spent more time on the game?
I read this forum even before installed the game.
And 4 years ago was a complete different environment ... It's like your grandfather says he can play soccer better then you just because it lived 80 years and you 25. Completely common sense.

Originally Posted by Darlgon

Why do you think you are having problems with the class now?
It is because you
Think you did not need to
Learn earlier how to play by reading the forums.
Especially because you think since you joined in April 2011 and leveled to 75
So others, who have been here for 4 years or more
Say you need to relearn your class, you resist.

More reading in the forums, for those of levels 20/30/45/65
And even those for levels 1-10
Need you to do.

Brilliant! This is the only reply that has any chance at all. Genius. +rep for your advanced "Advanced" translation skills.

Originally Posted by xeria

Brilliant! This is the only reply that has any chance at all. Genius. +rep for your advanced "Advanced" translation skills.

if this is the only one reply that has any chance, then you only post garbage and isn't all that Einstein that you think, because that post wasn't yours.. lol

Originally Posted by Advanced

if this is the only one reply that has any chance, then you only post garbage and isn't all that Einstein that you think, because that post wasn't yours.. lol

I don't even know what that means. I must be missing the Advanced-speech skill (summons a cosmetic pet troll).