Discussion: Poll from a creep point of view: Is RoI worse than Moria?

Envoyé par stoffi

I know what a warg potentially can do

No you don't. Mattg18 showed you a screen shot and then you said it's not possible (when clearly it was). Although it was talking about Mattg18's fight, it's relevant to this discussion. It shows that you truely don't know the full potential of the warg and fail to play the warg to the best of its potential. Of course you'll deny it, but that doesn't change the truth.

One fight can't be used to prove anything. It certainly can't be used to prove that 2 competent wargs cannot possibly beat 1 competent minstrel.

All it can be used for is to prove that these two wargs lost this particular fight to this particular minstrel.

Envoyé par stoffi

You're missing the point. We're talking about THIS fight, not Matt's fight.

I know what a warg potentially can do, but it's not realistic to believe a warg can do that in every fight. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I've never done that much dmg to anything but npcs, low levels and players with bad gear. Just look at his non-crits, his non-crit auto-attacks and the maul, they are all very high, indicating a target with ###### gear. Matt's target is therefore a ###### player/low level and that kind of damage is not realistic against a top mini unless you hit the crits of your life. I'm saying it is possible, but extremely rare and not something you can count on at all. That's what I said in the first place, which you misunderstood.

Well isn't that just funny, if you bothered to use the tools given to you, it would not be possible for a solo minstrel to hit you for 6k. Not with the crit of their life. Not ever.

Not that I believe you got hit for 6k in that particular fight, you've been making things up as you go along, but hey ...

Envoyé par stoffi

I know what a warg potentially can do, but it's not realistic to believe a warg can do that in every fight. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I've never done that much dmg to anything but npcs, low levels and players with bad gear. Just look at his non-crits, his non-crit auto-attacks and the maul, they are all very high, indicating a target with ###### gear. Matt's target is therefore a ###### player/low level and that kind of damage is not realistic against a top mini unless you hit the crits of your life. I'm saying it is possible, but extremely rare and not something you can count on at all. That's what I said in the first place, which you misunderstood.

We know what a minstrel potentially can do, but it's not realistic to believe a minstrel can do that (beat two R10+ Wargs by himself) in every fight. We're not saying it can't happen, but most minstrels have never done that much damage to anything but NPCs, low ranked creeps, and creeps with bad traits. Just look at the crits the minstrel was (allegedly) landing - they're all very high, indicating targets with ###### traits. That minstrel's targets were therefore ###### players and that kind of damage is not realistic against top wargs unless he hits the crits of his life. We're saying it's possible, but extremely rare and not something that you can count on at all. That's what many of us have said all along, which you've misunderstood (ignored).

Envoyé par timmyloo22546

No you don't. Mattg18 showed you a screen shot and then you said it's not possible (when clearly it was). Although it was talking about Mattg18's fight, it's relevant to this discussion. It shows that you truely don't know the full potential of the warg and fail to play the warg to the best of its potential. Of course you'll deny it, but that doesn't change the truth.

Okay. Let me explain to you one more time. Read this:

Envoyé par stoffi

You can make up 4.6k dmg in 2.5 sec(as if that ever happens) from a warg but it didn't happen in this fight!

I am quoting a screen shot where Matt did 4.6k dmg. 'As if that ever happens' is an expression(a normal English expression), meaning very rarely. It can also mean never ever, but not in this context as I AM QUOTING a screenshot. Also, I already explained what I mean in a post prior to this. Do I have to spell it out to you or are you too busy looking for ways of flaming me?

As I was saying in my latest post, that 4.6k dmg looks to be done against a low level or player with lousy gear, and it rarely happens. Critting that much is very rare and will as good as never happen against well geared players.

Do you understand now?

Also, that dmg is not relevant because IT DID NOT HAPPEN IN THAT FIGHT and will not happen in a 100 fights against that mini.

Do you want to repeat yourself more?

Envoyé par Equendil

Well isn't that just funny, if you bothered to use the tools given to you, it would not be possible for a solo minstrel to hit you for 6k. Not with the crit of their life. Not ever.

Not that I believe you got hit for 6k in that particular fight, you've been making things up as you go along, but hey ...

Good minstrels hit 6k many times every day. I did not have store pots up, I do not use armour trait. So yes, 6k is very doable.

Envoyé par Ugmo

One fight can't be used to prove anything. It certainly can't be used to prove that 2 competent wargs cannot possibly beat 1 competent minstrel.

All it can be used for is to prove that these two wargs lost this particular fight to this particular minstrel.

This I agree with. It does prove that a good mini can beat 2 potent wargs though, but does not prove how often that will happen.




A lot of people should be really ashamed at how they have behaved in this thread. Would you act in the same way if you met a person in real life? I doubt it. Instead of establishing your own truth without checking anything, ask, find out, search for information about what happened before you conclude. Just a little tip for many of you. Internet is a tool which can let our rude and inpolite sides loose because you're not face-to-face, but it doesn't have to be like that. Usually comes with age, but not for everyone.

Envoyé par stoffi

As I was saying in my latest post, that 4.6k dmg looks to be done against a low level or player [WRONG]with lousy gear [WRONG], and it rarely happens. Critting that much is very rare and will as good as never happen against well geared players.

It did happen againt a decent geared, max level, and I'll add knowledgeable/skilled mini. Take 30 seconds to look him up, his name was in the SS and the warg plays on RIddermark.

http://my.lotro.com/home/character/9...3212634056097/

Helped ya out.

Envoyé par stoffi

Do you understand now?

Do you?

Envoyé par stoffi

Instead of establishing your own truth without checking anything, ask, find out, search for information about what happened before you conclude

Practice what you preach comrade.

Envoyé par stoffi

Good minstrels hit 6k many times every day. I did not have store pots up, I do not use armour trait. So yes, 6k is very doable.

No they do not, I've already pointed out the chance a 6k dev crit would occur at all in very favourable circumstances for the minstrel (all buffs up, low target mitigations, low target crit protection) and with fairly good gear: 0.4%, in a post that you promptly ignored accusing me of trolling. In reality, that 0.4% is a gross exaggeration as obviously enough most uses of coda of fury will not be done with all buffs up on fail wargs too clueless to use Shadow Howler which would make crits that high entirely impossible.. As for you not slotting your armour trait either, let me just roll my eyes.

Envoyé par doug01

It did happen againt a decent geared, max level, and I'll add knowledgeable/skilled mini. Take 30 seconds to look him up, his name was in the SS and the warg plays on RIddermark.

http://my.lotro.com/home/character/9...3212634056097/

Helped ya out.



Do you?



Practice what you preach comrade.

I was mistaken about the player, but I never said it couldn't happen, I said it's very rare against good players. If not, wargs would have gotten nerfed very quickly. 900 crits happen, but not all that at once.

Still, how on EARTH is this relevant to the fight I have described? I've seen elephants on tv, I just ate chicken. Also irrelevant to the fight we are talking about. I saw a Warleader fly 30 meter up in the air from TA front gate to EC, 160 meters, lifted up by a gm who wanted to have some fun when the warleader said in ooc "I want to flyyyy!". It happened, but it usually doesn't happen and there were certainly no one flying in this fight. Completely irrelevant.

Do you have any other irrelevant quarrels/points you want to bring up?

Envoyé par Equendil

No they do not, I've already pointed out the chance a 6k dev crit would occur at all in very favourable circumstances for the minstrel (all buffs up, low target mitigations, low target crit protection) and with fairly good gear: 0.4%, in a post that you promptly ignored accusing me of trolling. In reality, that 0.4% is a gross exaggeration as obviously enough most uses of coda of fury will not be done with all buffs up on fail wargs too clueless to use Shadow Howler which would make crits that high entirely impossible.. As for you not slotting your armour trait either, let me just roll my eyes.

I don't know what kind of minstrels you have on your server, but on my server, 6k crits happen many times a day on various classes. You'll see ppl posting the crits in OOC, and it's also happened to me several times. But I guess ooc is filled with liars and I'm one too?

If I bother to play again, I'll get you a few crits so you can see. Or better yet, I'll post on my server forums asking a few minis to confirm it.

Envoyé par Reichpapers

After reading through this god awful thread, I get to this post. I really don’t understand how you do it. You manage to completely ignore all previous posters and completely make stuff up, consistently. I lost count at the number of people that told you that you should have won that fight hands down. They even mention skill combinations that you should have known. Now, you post the above info as if you had no chance of winning and you did everything right, and post it like it’s the established fact, that according to this thread history, is not.. Amazing.

Just like stuff me and a few others have stated. Things he does have irrational arguments against he will respond to, ones he doesn't he simply ignores. Guess his philosophy is ignorance is bliss ? He is too embarrassed at the rank he is he didn't know about a few things we suggested. He still hasn't posted his build (and your bros if you can). I wonder why your brother hasn't chimed in this thread...hmmmm, too embarrassed losing a 2v1 you 2 should have never lost?

Envoyé par stoffi

As I was saying in my latest post, that 4.6k dmg looks to be done against a low level or player with lousy gear, and it rarely happens

Hmm let me try a different approach for you. Given worst case scenario---in the situation with your 2vs1 -- what is the minimum damage a warg would do to a stunned mini for 2.5-3s (this being the 2nd stun during the fight)?

Envoyé par stoffi

I don't know what kind of minstrels you have on your server, but on my server, 6k crits happen many times a day on various classes. You'll see ppl posting the crits in OOC, and it's also happened to me several times. But I guess ooc is filled with liars and I'm one too?

You are most definitively a liar, you also don't seem to understand English.

Envoyé par Equendil

You are most definitively a liar, you also don't seem to understand English.

Actually I did see a 6K Coda crit today in OOC

I think the moors are quite balanced in fact, the only thing that makes them unbalanced is the fact that low ranks can buy their skills. I approach a rank 5 reaver going, hey no sweat, no need to blow my cooldowns or anything. But then I get disarmed and thrashed and die before I really have a chance to hit KO or TnG. I really just don't like the pay to win aspect since most people that have been around awhile haven't really done much of that, at least on Landroval from what I can see. I learned my lesson the hard way now, more people will QQ because I am going to start popping cooldowns more just to beat low ranks that have rank 15 skills. That just debases the entire idea of the moors in my opinion but hey, what am I compared to the millions of dollars Turbine has made!

Envoyé par PurebloodWorg

Actually I did see a 6K Coda crit today in OOC

Not the point. Stoffi is not claiming that happens once in a while, nahh, he was claiming that "good minstrels hit 6k many times every day."

I had a 6k coda 2 days ago. It was glorious. I will always remember it.

Envoyé par Hellogoodbye2

Just like stuff me and a few others have stated. Things he does have irrational arguments against he will respond to, ones he doesn't he simply ignores. Guess his philosophy is ignorance is bliss ? He is too embarrassed at the rank he is he didn't know about a few things we suggested. He still hasn't posted his build (and your bros if you can). I wonder why your brother hasn't chimed in this thread...hmmmm, too embarrassed losing a 2v1 you 2 should have never lost?

I don't respond to trolls and you have baited in every post you've made so far, including this one. You lost the tank discussion and now you're here to troll some more. Also, there's something called ignore button, which I'm happy to use. Bye.
Btw, 3 dps and 3 morale is my build.




Will respond about Coda's later today.

Envoyé par stoffi

Will respond about Coda's later today.

Make sure to explain how in your inquiry on Gilrain forums, you went from :

Envoyé par stoffi

good minstrels hit 6k many times every day

to not being sure you remember "several" occurrences this one evening from all minstrels considered collectively (lol)

Envoyé par stoffi

I seem to remember several 6k coda's being posted last time I played a full evening.

to just three times this one time at band camp from all minstrels considered collectively ...

Envoyé par stoffi

I remember at least 3 6k coda's in 1 evening, I think.

then downgrading the whole thing again:

Envoyé par stoffi

Does 6k happen daily?

Envoyé par Equendil

No they do not, I've already pointed out the chance a 6k dev crit would occur at all in very favourable circumstances for the minstrel (all buffs up, low target mitigations, low target crit protection) and with fairly good gear: 0.4%, in a post that you promptly ignored accusing me of trolling. In reality, that 0.4% is a gross exaggeration as obviously enough most uses of coda of fury will not be done with all buffs up on fail wargs too clueless to use Shadow Howler which would make crits that high entirely impossible.. As for you not slotting your armour trait either, let me just roll my eyes.

Envoyé par Elliee

If I spend a bit of time in EM in a day, 5-6k or maybe more happens yes.

Decent player and nice guy, but there's some minis who top off every other minstrel on the server by far, Viriel being one of them. So, if Elliee says this, those minis do more. Also, mini is one of the most played(active) classes on Gilrain, at times they seem to breed like rats.

So, you will see several/"many" 6k Coda's every day on my server, which is why I remembered 3 6k coda's in a short period of time. This can happen against most creeps as I remember 2 veterans posting 6k coda in ooc. (that's how my brain works, I can remember my thoughts about an incident, but not always details. In these incidents, I remember being shocked they were veterans)


So, my claim is NOT disproven, but some of my statements are not proven either. Coda's happen every day, but the question is if top minstrels manage many coda's per day, and that's still a question. I would modify myself though, rather saying a top mini can do SEVERAL 6k Coda's every day(not proven). I might be wrong there though, we will see.


Your claim however:

Envoyé par Equendil

No they do not, I've already pointed out the chance a 6k dev crit would occur at all in very favourable circumstances for the minstrel (all buffs up, low target mitigations, low target crit protection) and with fairly good gear: 0.4%, in a post that you promptly ignored accusing me of trolling. In reality, that 0.4% is a gross exaggeration as obviously enough most uses of coda of fury will not be done with all buffs up on fail wargs too clueless to use Shadow Howler which would make crits that high entirely impossible.. As for you not slotting your armour trait either, let me just roll my eyes.

Your claim is partially disproven. Armour pots don't grow on trees, so that's not something us creeps run around with constantly. Armour Trait is an option, but only that. It is not mandatory, even though you seem to think so. There are plenty of other good traits to go, and Armour trait is one of 2 optional traits, Rallying Howl and Armour trait. I run with Rallying howl in packs and Armour solo. Due to the fact that I was in a pack, I traited Rallying howl. Perhaps this thread will be of some assistance to your bombastic knowledge about wargs: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-do-you-use-it You will find out which traits wargs use in this thread.

Sooo, like most other wargs, I did not have armour pot or armour trait at that time. Only SH, meaning 6k is completely possible.

If armour trait, armour pot and SH, yes, I would agree that 6k will be tough for the mini, but could still get 5k, which is a lot.

What good is rallying howl if you can't even kill one freep with 2 wargs in order to get the defeat response for the heal? How do you plan on killing 2 freeps if you can't even kill one?

Iif you are ganking solos...there is no point in having a heal afterwards since you'll be out of combat.

Envoyé par timmyloo22546

What good is rallying howl if you can't even kill one freep with 2 wargs in order to get the defeat response for the heal? How do you plan on killing 2 freeps if you can't even kill one?

Iif you are ganking solos...there is no point in having a heal afterwards since you'll be out of combat.

You can't always plan for how many opponents you'll face, and we were about to upgrade the pack to 5 wargs. What's your point with this post? Would you have liked me to have told the freep to wait at that exact spot till I had swapped to armour trait since he was only one guy? ^^ I find Rallying Howl better than armour trait in packs, simple as that.

Your claim is partially disproven. Armour pots don't grow on trees, so that's not something us creeps run around with constantly. Armour Trait is an option, but only that. It is not mandatory, even though you seem to think so. There are plenty of other good traits to go, and Armour trait is one of 2 optional traits, Rallying Howl and Armour trait. I run with Rallying howl in packs and Armour solo. Due to the fact that I was in a pack, I traited Rallying howl. Perhaps this thread will be of some assistance to your bombastic knowledge about wargs: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-do-you-use-it You will find out which traits wargs use in this thread.

Sooo, like most other wargs, I did not have armour pot or armour trait at that time. Only SH, meaning 6k is completely possible.

This is game mechanism we're talking about Stoffi, it's not magical, Coda of Fury does not bypass mitigations, 6000 damage through ~20% mitigations turns into 4875 (6000/80*65) damage through ~35% mitigations, that's quite a difference there and you do not need armour pots to reach that, as has been pointed out to you by another stalker player. You can only blame yourself for not using the tools at your disposal.

And on that note, I slotted shadow mitigation virtues back in SoM specifically to deal with wargs, you can slot light mitigation corruptions to deal with minstrels.

Envoyé par stoffi

You can't always plan for how many opponents you'll face, and we were about to upgrade the pack to 5 wargs.

As a warg yes you can, especially with your tracker. Wargs can pick and choose their fights. Good excuse though.

I'd upgrade too if I lost a 2vs1. That'd be pretty embarrassing and I wouldn't want it to happen again.

Envoyé par timmyloo22546

As a warg yes you can, especially with your tracker. Wargs can pick and choose their fights. Good excuse though.

I'll be sure to get a hold of tracked freeps on vent then, and tell them to stand still while I map to grams to get my armour trait. Thx for the tip.

I'd save that bait at the end of your post for someone who cares, troll. You should be ashamed of your behaviour, but you seem shameless.

Envoyé par stoffi

I'd save that bait at the end of your post for someone who cares, troll. You should be ashamed of your behaviour, but you seem shameless.

You could improve greatly with some advice on how to play warg and what to trait. Why would I be ashamed about giving you the much needed advice?

Envoyé par Equendil

This is game mechanism we're talking about Stoffi, it's not magical, Coda of Fury does not bypass mitigations, 6000 damage through ~20% mitigations turns into 4875 (6000/80*65) damage through ~35% mitigations, that's quite a difference there and you do not need armour pots to reach that, as has been pointed out to you by another stalker player. You can only blame yourself for not using the tools at your disposal.

And on that note, I slotted shadow mitigation virtues back in SoM specifically to deal with wargs, you can slot light mitigation corruptions to deal with minstrels.

Mitigation corruptions on creep side have traditionally been utterly useless, haven't checked them post-RoI though, but I expect them to be the same.


I don't think we're going to get any further on the issue about Coda. I know how mitigations work and we all got it. Can't remember what other classes than warg have though, reaver and wl should have more, defiler probably more, spider maybe the same, so warg should be one of the easiest classes to score high on without SH and Armour Pot, I would think.

As mentioned earlier, I use armour solo sometimes duo(depending on what's already slotted), Rallying howl in packs.


Personally, I think reality is somewhere in between what the two of us think.

Envoyé par stoffi

Mitigation corruptions on creep side have traditionally been utterly useless, haven't checked them post-RoI though, but I expect them to be the same.

Yup. Still useless. And strangely, from Bullroarer testing, they get even worse with U5.
But that may yet change.

Envoyé par stoffi

I'll be sure to get a hold of tracked freeps on vent then, and tell them to stand still while I map to grams to get my armour trait. Thx for the tip.

I think the point was not to use stealth and track to then go respec for a specific fight, but to spec a certain way then seek out those fights while avoiding the fights that don't match well with your spec.

Look, I get it wargs and burgs "can" be tracked. But the reality is stealthed toons have more control over when and where they fight than non-stealthed. You can say it's not enough control to totally faceroll everything you fight, but it IS more control than visibles have.

Adding tracking to that advantage of stealth makes wargs control of when and where to fight unprecidented in LotRO.

As for Coda and Minstrel DPS as a whole....

I think these "secondary" roles for most classes are a bad idea and implemented poorly. Minstrel DPS is WAY too high, Champ survivability is WAY too high. Etc etc...

Bring back core roles. And IF it's absolutely critical that everyone do everything, then at least go to extra effort to make sure that SECONDARY roles remain SECONDARY and aren't trying to rival the primaries of other classes.

Envoyé par Thane9

Bring back core roles. And IF it's absolutely critical that everyone do everything, then at least go to extra effort to make sure that SECONDARY roles remain SECONDARY and aren't trying to rival the primaries of other classes.

Yes, the problem is Turbine has gone off the deep end with class design. Freep classes don't have "secondary" roles anymore. They have two main roles. And now, they're two main roles that they can do at the same time. That would be okay in certain roles. For example, Warleaders are healers and tanks. It works, because their DPS is poor, and their healing is limited - at least compared to freep healers. Well, and we don't really have the need of a proper tank class anyway.

But with freep classes, Turbine goes and makes the two roles survivability and DPS. That's a cardinal rule of class design that you JUST. DON'T. BREAK. Ever. Extreme survivability can NEVER go with extreme DPS, or you create horrid class imbalance. And to make things worse, creeps are still mostly designed around the correct class concepts, which causes further imbalance.

Envoyé par Thane9

I think the point was not to use stealth and track to then go respec for a specific fight, but to spec a certain way then seek out those fights while avoiding the fights that don't match well with your spec.

Look, I get it wargs and burgs "can" be tracked. But the reality is stealthed toons have more control over when and where they fight than non-stealthed. You can say it's not enough control to totally faceroll everything you fight, but it IS more control than visibles have.

Adding tracking to that advantage of stealth makes wargs control of when and where to fight unprecidented in LotRO.

As for Coda and Minstrel DPS as a whole....

I think these "secondary" roles for most classes are a bad idea and implemented poorly. Minstrel DPS is WAY too high, Champ survivability is WAY too high. Etc etc...

Bring back core roles. And IF it's absolutely critical that everyone do everything, then at least go to extra effort to make sure that SECONDARY roles remain SECONDARY and aren't trying to rival the primaries of other classes.

I can't plan for when I meet 1 freep alone or 3 freeps together. It just happens, and when I'm in a pack, I'll trait for Rallying Howl and we'll kill whatever we can find. When I'm solo, I trait armour. The pack will go for anything we have a chance to kill and we'll sacrifice armour for Rallying Howl as RH will be a lot more beneficial than armour trait if we fight multiple freeps. In a pack like that, you're pretty much guaranteed a kill when you decide to attack, thus making RH very usable for further fighting or just escaping. Obviously.

And yes, we have a lot of control compared to others, which is what I fancy about warg. Don't pay too much attention to that guy gonig on about what I should trait or not, he's only trolling.


I agree 100% with you on the 2nd part of your post, freep class differences are being washed away, everyone's getting more cc, everyone's getting more heals, everyone's getting dps, etc. Turbine is making huge mistakes with this game in my eyes, especially with so much competition upcoming very, very soon. :-/ I love LOTRO, but not like this.

I don't agree with the go back to core roles thing. That is/was archaic and most games these days allow for people to spec to do one of the things they can do exceptionally well; and the other, less well. I like that Lotro has evolved in the same way. It means people can complete content in less restrictive groups for one thing. The "holy trinity" of heals, dps and tank is thankfully a thing of the past in most content other than end-game (PvE) and has never really applied in the Moors. If you think you'll find anything different than multiple roles per class in games like SW:TOR, you're wrong - because healers there can do the same thing they do here - DPS or heal (and in some cases, both at the same time) just as effectively based on how they're specialized. Just like here - just like in GW2 - etc.

Envoyé par Gillianrial

I don't agree with the go back to core roles thing. That is/was archaic and most games these days allow for people to spec to do one of the things they can do exceptionally well; and the other, less well. I like that Lotro has evolved in the same way. It means people can complete content in less restrictive groups for one thing. The "holy trinity" of heals, dps and tank is thankfully a thing of the past in most content other than end-game (PvE) and has never really applied in the Moors. If you think you'll find anything different than multiple roles per class in games like SW:TOR, you're wrong - because healers there can do the same thing they do here - DPS or heal (and in some cases, both at the same time) just as effectively based on how they're specialized. Just like here - just like in GW2 - etc.

Yes. DPS OR heal. Wonderful. Make people choose. Turbine (well, just freeps) is DPS AND heal.

Far worse than Moria and bordering on worse than SoA

Every single Freep class can crit 3K+ now (maybe not Wardens/Guards..yet)

Its basically insta-death PVP at this point if more than 1 Freep focus fire on you

Never seen so many 2K-3K+ hits in my combat log until ROI

Any Freep who says otherwise is either naive or dishonest