Finally put the beast down. Basically just used SM, DoW, WoS, DS, Conviction. Used the paw method and it worked fine. You can see some numbers that I was seeing tonight that were pretty much what I was getting the whole time. Those weren't the numbers from the whole fight, but they are pretty representative of what I was seeing the whole time. He was critting me 17% of the time
I got the cloak though, pretty...pretty nice.
Last edited by Mysterion; Nov 07 2011 at 12:17 AM.
I need to remember to take a screen shot of my CA sometime to post here also. And yes, Glorno, this fight is easy for us to tank With regards to the screenshots, I wonder what traits/relics you are using Evendale vs Glorno ... that may account for the large discrepency in partial blocks. It also may just be that you have your block really high so that it is overcap and you are adding to partials that way. I am also curious if either of you are running any crit defense relics or probably more appropriate, what you crit defense is. I was expecting us to be closer there and these may just be statistical anomalies or build differences. I am not logged in right now but from memory want to say my crit def is around 3k
Jacbo - like the rotation. I use a fairly similar one except I don't use the BM at all. Still deciding if it is worthwhile or not in a fight like that. The WoS on a 20 second timer makes that whole rotation a lot longer one (meaning it is not the same rotation every 15 or even 30 seconds but more along a 60 second rotation of skills).
With regards to Draigoch's finesse, I thought it was closer to 10% but my sample size is not large enough to be conclusive ... that and I need to actually focus for the entire fight to make sure my BPE buffs are up the entire time to get an accurate number from myself (either that or just go SM the entire time with HoTs ... that may be easier).
Either way, good to see some other numbers and as a side note, I am also a proponent of tank and 1 healer for phase 2 .... we use a capt and let our mini buff the group down below but either works fine.
Edit: Updated my crit def as my memory was way off and must have been thinking mits, not crits.
With regards to the screenshots, I wonder what traits/relics you are using Evendale vs Glorno ... that may account for the large discrepency in partial blocks.
I seriously doubt the difference is due to any kind of relics or traits. My incoming healing is about 16%, and BPE was about 24/18/18 or something around there. My partials should have been higher than Evendale, still have no idea why they were only 5% total. Block alone should have been close to 10% since I was almost capped, all three partials should have been over the 15% Evendale got. Who knows what happened there, probably either (a) extremely rare statistical anomaly or (b) some sort of avoidance bug from the new mechanics. I vote option (b) because of Mist's recent screenshots that support the weirdness of my own but, again, who knows.
I would love for it to just be a relic issue, but I just don't see how that's possible. Even if I didn't use any relics and Evendale had the best ones possible it shouldn't be making me take double the damage he does. Still didn't have any issues with the fight, this is more speculation and concern for Update 5 material.
Last edited by thunderchickn; Nov 08 2011 at 03:33 AM.
I seriously doubt the difference is due to any kind of relics or traits. My incoming healing is about 16%, and BPE was about 24/18/18 or something around there. My partials should have been higher than Evendale, still have no idea why they were only 5% total. Block alone should have been close to 10% since I was almost capped, all three partials should have been over the 15% Evendale got. Who knows what happened there, probably either (a) extremely rare statistical anomaly or (b) some sort of avoidance bug from the new mechanics. I vote option (b) because of Mist's recent screenshots that support the weirdness of my own but, again, who knows.
I would love for it to just be a relic issue, but I just don't see how that's possible. Even if I didn't use any relics and Evendale had the best ones possible it shouldn't be making me take double the damage he does. Still didn't have any issues with the fight, this is more speculation and concern for Update 5 material.
You didn't take twice as much damage - you took 1.5 times as much. I'm not saying that that is "fair", I'm just interested in keeping things accurate.
I'm still curious as to why you were hit with four times as many devastating crits and three times as many regular crits as Evendale was. What sort of crit defense do you both have? I was under the impression that Wardens and Guardians were roughly on par crit defense-wise.
You didn't take twice as much damage - you took 1.5 times as much. I'm not saying that that is "fair", I'm just interested in keeping things accurate.
I'm still curious as to why you were hit with four times as many devastating crits and three times as many regular crits as Evendale was. What sort of crit defense do you both have? I was under the impression that Wardens and Guardians were roughly on par crit defense-wise.
Crit Avoidance from my.lotro 2780
(with horseshoe on, ya I use it to collect ore - give me the sigils baby, I don't think the golden spearhead has crit defense so that is probably accurate)
You didn't take twice as much damage - you took 1.5 times as much. I'm not saying that that is "fair", I'm just interested in keeping things accurate.
I'm still curious as to why you were hit with four times as many devastating crits and three times as many regular crits as Evendale was. What sort of crit defense do you both have? I was under the impression that Wardens and Guardians were roughly on par crit defense-wise.
Fair enough, I was referring to when I actually was getting hit I was taking about twice as much damage. I don't feel like the difference in our avoiding was significant, but it looks like I am wrong about that since it did reduce my damage taken about 25% more than his.
My crit defense on myLOTRO (can't be bothered to log in right now) is 3300 which sounds about right. Evendale's on myLOTRO is 4200. A 900 rating difference should reflect a difference of ~3% (a high estimate would be 5%) in our critical hits taken. As with the partial avoidance situation I don't know why it would actually make me take almost 20% more crits and 7% more devs. I must have been extremely unlucky or... again... another bug with their new mechanics (surprise!). The sample size isn't huge, but 130+ attacks should be enough to at least eliminate extreme outliers... who knows.
Last edited by thunderchickn; Nov 08 2011 at 01:43 PM.
Fair enough, I was referring to when I actually was getting hit I was taking about twice as much damage. I don't feel like the difference in our avoiding was significant, but it looks like I am wrong about that since it did reduce my damage taken about 25% more than his.
My crit defense on myLOTRO (can't be bothered to log in right now) is 3300 which sounds about right. Evendale's on myLOTRO is 4200. A 900 rating difference should reflect a difference of ~3% (a high estimate would be 5%) in our critical hits taken. As with the partial avoidance situation I don't know why it would actually make me take almost 20% more crits and 7% more devs. I must have been extremely unlucky or... again... another bug with their new mechanics (surprise!). The sample size isn't huge, but 130+ attacks should be enough to at least eliminate extreme outliers... who knows.
Hm. That helps explain it a bit, then.
(And thank you to all for pointing out to me that Wardens really don't have the same crit defense as Guardians - I didn't know that. If it makes anyone feel better and/or worry less about Champ tanks, I don't think that I can get my Champ's crit defense to 2k, even. Yes, I'm aware that Heavy Armor mitigation is higher, though.)
But you're right - either you were extremely unlucky, or Even was very lucky. It looks like Mistden also suffered an abnormally high percentage of crits relative to Evendale.
As for the partials issue, I have no idea. You may be right that it's some back-end issue that we're just not seeing. It wouldn't be the first time something like that happened.
(And thank you to all for pointing out to me that Wardens really don't have the same crit defense as Guardians - I didn't know that. If it makes anyone feel better and/or worry less about Champ tanks, I don't think that I can get my Champ's crit defense to 2k, even. Yes, I'm aware that Heavy Armor mitigation is higher, though.)
But you're right - either you were extremely unlucky, or Even was very lucky. It looks like Mistden also suffered an abnormally high percentage of crits relative to Evendale.
As for the partials issue, I have no idea. You may be right that it's some back-end issue that we're just not seeing. It wouldn't be the first time something like that happened.
I have a small amount of hope for just being unlucky with crits since Mist was lower than me with even less crit defense (still nowhere near what it should have been), but I am pretty worried about partials. Mist had an even higher sample size than I did and his partials were still abnormally low. I have a good (err... bad) feeling that there is yet something else messed up in the back end.
Just figured I'd throw up the numbers I parsed while tanking Draigoch as well. This is from a run and a half; the first one we had a healer mishap and had to start over.
It seems my partials numbers are similar to the other examples. Definitely is a bit weird. I also took a ton of crits. My crit defense is around 3k. I would like to think I just got unlucky; I'm planning on parsing more fights to see if this was the case. Also of note: I only had the parry buff on about half the time (my captain was downstairs fighting claws and my buff wore off midway through, and didn't get refreshed until stage 3).
But you're right - either you were extremely unlucky, or Even was very lucky. It looks like Mistden also suffered an abnormally high percentage of crits relative to Evendale.
If we compare the statistics of Evendale with yours, i believe that something is broken about partials and maybe criticals?
Also the common mitigation gap between grd and wrd is 70% versus 50%, or 66% more dmg but if we take avoidance into account the dmg gap should be less, but if we compare evendale's statistics with Asto's the difference is ~65% !!!!!!!!!
well i hope its only cause of luck,gear.ill try check myself also.
about critical:
lets say draigoch has 20% critical chance and the warden has 10% critical defence, so draigoth should have 10 crit chance on warden.
And lets say the warden BPE the half of his attacks(50%). I dont count partials. That means that the 5% of draigochs attack only are critical right?
Or the formula works differently.
EDIT:
depending on asto's statistics critical defence seems to add critical chance to draigoch
Last edited by petaloudas00; Nov 08 2011 at 07:41 PM.
Your parses in this thread confirm exactly what I would have expected given how the math works.
I don't understand what post in that thread confirms that ~900 crit rating should mean ~20% more crits, can you point it out for me? I'm confused because as I understood it Critical Rating (enemy) - Critical Defense = Critical hits received (%). I don't see how another 900 rating should make a 20% difference to that Critical Hit Received number, 900 rating only converts to about 3%.
Last edited by thunderchickn; Nov 08 2011 at 07:36 PM.
Fair enough, I was referring to when I actually was getting hit I was taking about twice as much damage. I don't feel like the difference in our avoiding was significant, but it looks like I am wrong about that since it did reduce my damage taken about 25% more than his.
My crit defense on myLOTRO (can't be bothered to log in right now) is 3300 which sounds about right. Evendale's on myLOTRO is 4200. A 900 rating difference should reflect a difference of ~3% (a high estimate would be 5%) in our critical hits taken. As with the partial avoidance situation I don't know why it would actually make me take almost 20% more crits and 7% more devs. I must have been extremely unlucky or... again... another bug with their new mechanics (surprise!). The sample size isn't huge, but 130+ attacks should be enough to at least eliminate extreme outliers... who knows.
Some of the extra crit defense a Guardian gets (when traited 5 yellow) is bugged and doesn't show on the ratings in the game tooltip, so is probably a bit higher than what you see in myLOTRO (assuming that wasn't my OP build anyway).
Crit defense reduces your crit defense rating from the mob's rating meaning the more rating you have, the larger the reduction in crits (hopefully that makes sense).
Given the contrived mechanics, it is expected that a Guardian will get critted considerably less than a Warden
i know how the work but if you see your statistics you have ~12% partial bpe and the wardens ~5-7%
also you critically hit by draigoch 7% of his total hit including the bpe ones and thender for example 35% and asto 26%
a warden has ~8.5-10.5% critical defence and a guard ~10.5-13.5% depending on your build(unless you had the old setting with the meele crit defence).This is a huge difference.
even if we dont count critical defence,bpe it should be less as graalx2 said:an archnemesis has 7k+ critical aka 20% critical.
Some of the extra crit defense a Guardian gets (when traited 5 yellow) is bugged and doesn't show on the ratings in the game tooltip, so is probably a bit higher than what you see in myLOTRO (assuming that wasn't my OP build anyway).
Crit defense reduces your crit defense rating from the mob's rating meaning the more rating you have, the larger the reduction in crits (hopefully that makes sense).
Given the contrived mechanics, it is expected that a Guardian will get critted considerably less than a Warden
No need for giant red links, this is the third or fourth time you've responded simply by posting links that aren't related to what is confusing me. I have looked at all the great work you do with the numbers to try and figure these things out and I do appreciate them but linking those posts do not help with this issue.
What your posts do not explain is why I would be crit almost FOUR TIMES more than you were, even if I were unlucky other Wardens here have shown logs of over THREE TIMES as many crits as you took. The margin was not small, it is between 15 and 20% of all attacks between you and us. I don't understand how even 1000 less crit rating the monster has against you versus us would account for that, the margin is just way too huge.
Let's say you even have something 6000 crit defense and we have 3000. That means, when comparing our damage taken, there should be a difference of about 3000 effective critical rating when the mob attacks you as opposed to us. In one thread you linked, we were told by Graal that level 75 Arch Nemesis mobs are in the ballpark of 7500 critical rating give or take. Let's say 10,000 for simplicity. They would be critting you with an effective rating of 4000, about 12% or so. They would be critting us with an effective rating of 7000, about 18%. Those percentages are just from memory but no matter how you look at it there's no way we should be taking 3 or 4 times as many crits as you are. Since the margin between you and us is even smaller, I would expect that difference to be even smaller. How does that explain us getting crit at nearly 20% while you are around 5%? Obviously "3 times as much" is misleading, because if you were at 1% and we were at 3% I don't think there would even be an issue. Unfortunately that's not the case and these numbers are pretty large and don't look like a function of small number statistics.
Along the same train of thought, whether partial BPE is additive or multiplicative it doesn't make sense that you would have a higher partial rate than we do. We have more partial, whether additive or multiplicative, so why would you be partially avoiding more often?
If there's some sort of fuzzy math I'm not understanding that's fine and I would love to be corrected here, but nothing I've seen so far has convinced me that everything is working fine when you are partially BPEing twice as much as me and getting crit 4 times less.
Last edited by thunderchickn; Nov 08 2011 at 11:11 PM.
Often I have to see something visually to "get it". See the below.
NOT TO SCALE...rough MS paint to show the concept
Basically he gets more benefit per rating for those relics than you get per rating over a light armor because of the way diminishing returns works in reverse.
I probably got a bit lucky with only 5.7% crits. You can hardly draw deep conclusions from one parse of just over 100 attacks. Though maybe some of the Warden crit defense traits aren't working. Who knows.
The partial avoidance stuff I linked explains at least in part the observations we are seeing with regards to partial block. I don't wanna explain it in detail here, cos I don't want to get nerfed, but it is explained fairly well in one of the linked posts.
A cursory look over the numbers makes me think Finesse does effect partial avoidances as well as normal avoidances (which is not what we were led to believe), though its hard to say for sure without knowing everyones stats.
A cursory look over the numbers makes me think Finesse does effect partial avoidances as well as normal avoidances (which is not what we were led to believe), though its hard to say for sure without knowing everyones stats.
Well, the initial implementation of Finesse (which worked against avoidance ratings exactly like Crit Def does against crit ratings) would have naturally effected partials, as they are derived from your rating. This was changed late-BETA to Finesse calcing a % that was subtracted from your avoidance % (so we calc our BPE % and subtract the Finesse % as opposed to subtracting Finesse rating from BPE rating and then calcing our BPE %).
Maybe the same % is coming off full and partial avoids? If so, then not cool. It should be taken off of partials by balance of contribution to total BPE, not the same flat amount that came off the corresponding full avoid. This would give us a much greater reduction in damage avoided, especially if you have high partial mitigations.
Maybe the same % is coming off full and partial avoids? If so, then not cool. It should be taken off of partials by balance of contribution to total BPE, not the same flat amount that came off the corresponding full avoid. This would give us a much greater reduction in damage avoided, especially if you have high partial mitigations.
Finesse ratings to % conversion seem to follow the same curve as BPE/crit, so I would think that if anything is done to partials, they are reduced by whatever your Finesse rating converts to as a partial % on that scale.
Since partials are apparently multiplicative with BPE they're going to be low regardless. But of course it's probably bugged in some way .
Thanks for the explanations, not that I think you guys are wrong but I'm just still not sure I agree with this being the reason for our differences. I do understand what you guys are saying better now so thanks for taking the time to explain it more. The crit defense thing is a bit more clear, again just not sure if I am comfortable saying "oh okay that's why". The margins are just too big.
I'm still completely lost on the partials. The fact remains that no matter how it's added, how Finesse does or doesn't affect it, or how it protects us we have more of it than Guards. I see the theories of how it might be added, maybe multiplied, maybe Finesse does affect it, maybe not, etc. What I don't understand is no matter how it works the class with more of it to begin with should be partially BPEing more. No matter what. No matter how a mob's crit defense works, a Burglar with a higher crit rating than a Champ should be critting more often, period. Maybe my whole premise is wrong and Guardians have traits or stances that raise partial BPE to bring them above Wardens (go Turbine!) but if I have higher BPE values, by definition I should also have higher partial BPE.
EDIT: I do see you have a partial bonus on your stance, but 2.5% shouldn't be enough to overcome Wardens. I was at ~24% block and 18% parry/evade and the corresponding partials should still be greater than yours. You coming out 10% higher should be incorrect. I think it's a bug favoring, you guessed it, the Guardians!
Thanks again for the explanations though, I do understand what you were trying to say about crit defense now just still not convinced that is the reason. I understand that it's part of a diminished returns scale, but I still think something is wrong. I'm pretty sure that no place exists on any statistical curve in this game at level 75 where ~1000 (heck even 2000) rating equals 15%, hence my skeptism. It's not just that it doesn't equal 15% because I would allow for wiggle room since I don't know precisely. However I know that even at the "best" part of the curves in this game, you can't get 1% out of less than 200, maybe 250. Any way I look at it, 1000 rating isn't even close to 15%. I have a reason, it's not because you guys aren't explaining it properly
Last edited by thunderchickn; Nov 09 2011 at 01:46 PM.
I'm still completely lost on the partials. The fact remains that no matter how it's added, how Finesse does or doesn't affect it, or how it protects us we have more of it than Guards. I see the theories of how it might be added, maybe multiplied, maybe Finesse does affect it, maybe not, etc. What I don't understand is no matter how it works the class with more of it to begin with should be partially BPEing more. No matter what. No matter how a mob's crit defense works, a Burglar with a higher crit rating than a Champ should be critting more often, period. Maybe my whole premise is wrong and Guardians have traits or stances that raise partial BPE to bring them above Wardens (go Turbine!) but if I have higher BPE values, by definition I should also have higher partial BPE.
EDIT: I do see you have a partial bonus on your stance, but 2.5% shouldn't be enough to overcome Wardens. I was at ~24% block and 18% parry/evade and the corresponding partials should still be greater than yours. You coming out 10% higher should be incorrect. I think it's a bug favoring, you guessed it, the Guardians!
From 0 avoidance rating, it takes 2550 to reach a 2.5% partial avoid chance. The next 2.5% takes an additional 2700 rating. The next 2.5% takes an additional 2850 rating.
At nominal BPE levels, when using all their gambits, a Warden will have more total avoids, more full avoids, and less partial avoids than a guardian using Ward, since that 2.5% partial is worth about 3k in rating at end-game BPE levels.
Play around with this calculator...youll see (Ignore Finesse though...it was done back before the late BETA change and I never updated it).
Thanks again for the explanations though, I do understand what you were trying to say about crit defense now just still not convinced that is the reason. I understand that it's part of a diminished returns scale, but I still think something is wrong. I'm pretty sure that no place exists on any statistical curve in this game at level 75 where ~1000 (heck even 2000) rating equals 15%, hence my skeptism. It's not just that it doesn't equal 15% because I would allow for wiggle room since I don't know precisely. However I know that even at the "best" part of the curves in this game, you can't get 1% out of less than 200, maybe 250. Any way I look at it, 1000 rating isn't even close to 15%. I have a reason, it's not because you guys aren't explaining it properly
If Evandale posted 10 or so parses and all showed that low of a crit %, then I would wonder too. As it is, its likely a fluke...an anomaly. People post screeies of their 9k crits not because they do them every day and are par for the course, but because they are rare exceptions.
I guess what Im saying is that you cant read too much into one data-point (that is, the rate Evandale took crits at on one run).
ETA: Guards get 2.5% partial block and 2.5% partial parry chance from Ward, for a 5% partial avoid increase. Block stance also adds 2.5% partial block chance. Thats a freaking lot of rating worth of partials (total of 7.5% increased partial chance).
so +7.5% more partials.only with evade we counter this gap and we are almost the same, but evendale had x2+ more partials than the others.
And another thing.... the avoidance tank is on par at partials with the mitgation tank!!!!!
I made my warden my main because of his unique gameplay and mostly cause wardens were the most survival class in the game
and now?!? sigh...
ETA: Guards get 2.5% partial block and 2.5% partial parry chance from Ward, for a 5% partial avoid increase. Block stance also adds 2.5% partial block chance. Thats a freaking lot of rating worth of partials (total of 7.5% increased partial chance).
Thank you, this is all I needed. I didn't know you also got partial on your Ward.
Mitigation tank partially BPEing more than the avoidance tank... unreal Turbine. Absolutely unreal. I'm almost to the point of just being over the crits too... Turbine probably made extra sure that Wardens would get hit with more crits as well. The more I delve into this tank math, the more I'm embarrassed how often I stand up for Turbine. Makes me look like a pretty big idiot that I have ultimately been defending decisions like this for so many years. Pretty big slap in the face when I think of it that way.
Mitigation tank partially BPEing more than the avoidance tank... unreal Turbine. Absolutely unreal.
Is there any moment in warden history when we were best or even in line with guards is tanking arts? Not in one particular fight or situation. Globally. I'm not talking about "I can tank this". PreRoI champ can do it too. I'm talking about "I can do everything, but in different way". I'm dead? OK, I recover by 2 min spamming of PB, hehe. That's a spirit.
Always guardians have something (for group benefit too), we haven't. Agro copy, defeat recovery, "oh $^%" skills, mitigations, etc. We haven't any mechanics to help us, except legendary "we can spam gambits" style.
I think devs are in fear of creating OP warden. They work so hard to not OP us, that we are UP. A slightly, even imperceptibly before RoI. Now changes just hit us harder and our disadvantages are shining like sun at midnight. Maybe it's good. Maybe now we'll get "month of the warden". Just after next update of the minstrel class. I really think I could be OP for one or two updates. Just for moral losses
Nice derail?
I hate to say it man...but you are looking at this backwards. Look at the two parses Evandale quoted on page 5 again...
- The warden had 55% total avoidance. The guard had 48%. Wardens avoid more than guards.
- 90% of the Warden's avoids were full avoids (no damage done). On only 10% of the warden's avoids were damage done. 75% of the Guardian's avoids were full avoids. On 25% of them damage was done. Even when avoiding, the guardian was taking more damage than the warden.
A guardian avoids less than a warden and when they do they are more likely to take damage because its much more likely to be a partial avoid.
Its actually a clever way to make a mitigation take mitigate when they have to have avoidances to use their skills. Remember 5/9 taunts, our short CD heal/power heal, and our only threat leech are all gated behind blocking or parrying something. Using partials to make our overall block/parry events happen often while still taking damage is a good solution.
Unless that is your saying the devs should turn those partial block/parry % bonuses into full block/parry % bonuses so that we take even less damage during fights?
I hate to say it man...but you are looking at this backwards. Look at the two parses Evandale quoted on page 5 again...
- The warden had 55% total avoidance. The guard had 48%. Wardens avoid more than guards.
- 90% of the Warden's avoids were full avoids (no damage done). On only 10% of the warden's avoids were damage done. 75% of the Guardian's avoids were full avoids. On 25% of them damage was done. Even when avoiding, the guardian was taking more damage than the warden.
A guardian avoids less than a warden and when they do they are more likely to take damage because its much more likely to be a partial avoid.
Its actually a clever way to make a mitigation take mitigate when they have to have avoidances to use their skills. Remember 5/9 taunts, our short CD heal/power heal, and our only threat leech are all gated behind blocking or parrying something. Using partials to make our overall block/parry events happen often while still taking damage is a good solution.
Unless that is your saying the devs should turn those partial block/parry % bonuses into full block/parry % bonuses so that we take even less damage during fights?
What you are saying makes sense .... if our mitigations were close to the same. Given mitigations being what they are right now, an avoidance tank should blow a mitigation tank out of the water in the avoidance/partial avoidance comparison. As it is, even though he avoided more attacks, he still took almost 75% more damage. Unless you are saying you need more partials because you are not getting enough BP to set off your events despite having the cap raised from pre-RoI where I never heard a guardian complain about not getting enough BP's ....
What you are saying makes sense .... if our mitigations were close to the same. Given mitigations being what they are right now, an avoidance tank should blow a mitigation tank out of the water in the avoidance/partial avoidance comparison. As it is, even though he avoided more attacks, he still took almost 75% more damage. Unless you are saying you need more partials because you are not getting enough BP to set off your events despite having the cap raised from pre-RoI where I never heard a guardian complain about not getting enough BP's ....
I hear what your saying...but I think there is more of a balance than that to it. You really have to take total damage taken minus warden HoTs to compare it to a guardian's damage taken. Remember, yall got the HoTs not so you could "be a small fellowship", but rather so you could make up for the mitigation difference. Guardians have no real equivalent (CaB is about 30 HPS if you have the legacy to lower the CD and have a block event open to use it every time the CD is up. WH is even worse since traited its a 3.5min CD. 4.7 HPS w/o the set bonus, 14 HPS with).
So yeah, ditch the HoTs and Im cool with better mitigation on a warden. Currently we know HoTs are broken, Orion has said as much, and that they are getting fixed in the next month or so with Update 5. I wouldnt go comparing TPS or total taken numbers until you have the HoT fix.
TBH though, I am also surprised at the low BPE numbers yall are posting in here. I would have expected more like 65% total avoidance, not 50-55%. Maybe it has to do with Draigoch's Finesse? I do feel for Wardens in this department cause Finesse strips away your primary way of reducing damage.
I know that on my last run I parsed a 38% total avoidance rating, but Im a fail guard who has lots of +crit rating relics (that is, i land more crits, not crit defense like Evandale) and who doesnt always remember to use Ward. I could probably add 5-10% to that if I was totally tricked out for avoidance.
Draigoch is sorta a special case in this department since he doesnt attack constantly. Im not often waiting for reactive events, but that doesnt mean that I always have them available when I want/need. In normal multi-mob combat I have more than enough events that I can always use any of my block or parry skills as soon as they are off CD.
Ill post the Taken parse from Tuesday night after I get home from work.
I hear what your saying...but I think there is more of a balance than that to it. You really have to take total damage taken minus warden HoTs to compare it to a guardian's damage taken. Remember, yall got the HoTs not so you could "be a small fellowship", but rather so you could make up for the mitigation difference. Guardians have no real equivalent (CaB is about 30 HPS if you have the legacy to lower the CD and have a block event open to use it every time the CD is up. WH is even worse since traited its a 3.5min CD. 4.7 HPS w/o the set bonus, 14 HPS with).
And there you're at the root of the warden issue regarding HoTs. It can be at the same time way too much for low damage situations like 3-mans, and yet be completely inadequate to make up for the damage of a raid boss. For me, the solution does not lie in increasing HoTs, but rather reducing damage in other ways - ie increased bpe, more crit defense and most importantly -crit magnitude. These types of solutions scale better when dealing with hits of differing magnitudes.
I hear what your saying...but I think there is more of a balance than that to it. You really have to take total damage taken minus warden HoTs to compare it to a guardian's damage taken. Remember, yall got the HoTs not so you could "be a small fellowship", but rather so you could make up for the mitigation difference. Guardians have no real equivalent (CaB is about 30 HPS if you have the legacy to lower the CD and have a block event open to use it every time the CD is up. WH is even worse since traited its a 3.5min CD. 4.7 HPS w/o the set bonus, 14 HPS with).
The only problem is that a full HoTs cycle is basically 80% of the available gambits that you can perform in that cycle. You must continue that cycle to keep HoTs up. So saying HoTs should make up mitigation is basically saying that something that just passively happens for heavies should should be something that wardens spend 80% of their time doing to make up for the deficiency of the class design.
Our HoTs do not generate threat. Two of them transfer threat. One of them adds to evade. So full cycles of HoTs would be fine if we didn't have to do other things. I do not have all the answers but I think that if wardens are doing full cycles of HoTs our incoming damage (damage - healing) should be less than that of a guard or champ doing nothing but standing in front of a mob (no buffs). I'm sure that will be an unpopular opinion but I think for the amount of effort a warden puts into self heals there should be a benefit. I would like to see all tanks have similar incoming damage when buffed. The fact that the game favors one or two above others is a bad thing IMO.
And there you're at the root of the warden issue regarding HoTs. It can be at the same time way too much for low damage situations like 3-mans, and yet be completely inadequate to make up for the damage of a raid boss. For me, the solution does not lie in increasing HoTs, but rather reducing damage in other ways - ie increased bpe, more crit defense and most importantly -crit magnitude. These types of solutions scale better when dealing with hits of differing magnitudes.
Saw this after responding. I agree with this completely. I'd rather be raid scalable and not the "Warden is a small fellowship" class. I could care less about solo challenges.
I hear what your saying...but I think there is more of a balance than that to it. You really have to take total damage taken minus warden HoTs to compare it to a guardian's damage taken. Remember, yall got the HoTs not so you could "be a small fellowship", but rather so you could make up for the mitigation difference.
If we're using enough HoTs to offset any significant amount of damage, we don't have full BPE up. We have some of it up, but we're probably going to be even with Guards in the BPE department (or even lower) resulting in us taking even more damage. Our buffs and heals just don't last long enough to use both of them together. If our heals suddenly became amazing that would be awesome and it might help fix us, but in the equation of damage taken you would have to significant lower our BPE to give us time to use the heals.
Originally Posted by Mysterion
Our HoTs do not generate threat. Two of them transfer threat. One of them adds to evade.
If we're talking just HoTs, only one of them transfers threat (does not generate). We get no BPE buffs from using HoTs. We have a chance for a block buff while cycling our heals, but there is no control over that. I guess you could count Orion's proposed partial BPE changes that we would also have 5% partial B, P, and E buffs for a total of 15% partial while cycling HoTs. Wee.
Last edited by thunderchickn; Nov 10 2011 at 01:57 PM.
If we're talking just HoTs, only one of them transfers threat (does not generate). We get no BPE buffs from using HoTs. We have a chance for a block buff while cycling our heals, but there is no control over that. I guess you could count Orion's proposed partial BPE changes that we would also have 5% partial B, P, and E buffs for a total of 15% partial while cycling HoTs. Wee.
Sorry, I was lumping DoW in, it certainly is not a HoT. Thank god its my Friday, woot 3 day weekend.
Despite a big chance that the fight bugs out, because of runestones and especially lm´s pets (common turbine you can do better than this), there is a pretty good way to avoid tanking damage, simply don´t aggro him. Just stand there, let the mini heal u and get the aggro and there u go. No shaking, no aoe damage, no tank damage. just pure boredom until he sends his tells to change position. Took the time to measure the how long his phases go. Combat in phase 1. is 1 minute 15 secs, phase 2. 1 minute 30 secs. Phase 3. about a minute, but also got 1.15 in one fight down there. Beware of auto attacks and that u sometimes do get auto aggro, until someone gets it off u, or u swap tanks for example...
I hear what your saying...but I think there is more of a balance than that to it. You really have to take total damage taken minus warden HoTs to compare it to a guardian's damage taken. Remember, yall got the HoTs not so you could "be a small fellowship", but rather so you could make up for the mitigation difference. Guardians have no real equivalent (CaB is about 30 HPS if you have the legacy to lower the CD and have a block event open to use it every time the CD is up. WH is even worse since traited its a 3.5min CD. 4.7 HPS w/o the set bonus, 14 HPS with).
So yeah, ditch the HoTs and Im cool with better mitigation on a warden. Currently we know HoTs are broken, Orion has said as much, and that they are getting fixed in the next month or so with Update 5. I wouldnt go comparing TPS or total taken numbers until you have the HoT fix.
TBH though, I am also surprised at the low BPE numbers yall are posting in here. I would have expected more like 65% total avoidance, not 50-55%. Maybe it has to do with Draigoch's Finesse? I do feel for Wardens in this department cause Finesse strips away your primary way of reducing damage.
I know that on my last run I parsed a 38% total avoidance rating, but Im a fail guard who has lots of +crit rating relics (that is, i land more crits, not crit defense like Evandale) and who doesnt always remember to use Ward. I could probably add 5-10% to that if I was totally tricked out for avoidance.
Draigoch is sorta a special case in this department since he doesnt attack constantly. Im not often waiting for reactive events, but that doesnt mean that I always have them available when I want/need. In normal multi-mob combat I have more than enough events that I can always use any of my block or parry skills as soon as they are off CD.
Ill post the Taken parse from Tuesday night after I get home from work.
I think my fellow wardens have adequately responded to this with the exception of the fact that we probably should not take Draigoch as an example as his DPS is relatively low. In addition there is no agro issue to worry about here. I believe I (and my fellow wardens) are looking this from a broader perspective and only using Draigoch as a baseline as it is very easy to get comparables with regards to BPE/Crits as compared to a skirm where you constantly have different mobs spawning and as such lack a good baseline for comparison. What we are looking forward to (and some of us dreading) is when they release a more dificult raid zone in which the stark comparisons that we are seeing in Draigoch become magnified and multiplied. If the raid bosses in the new zone are able to dev for 10k on a warden (exagerration or probability based on Draigoch? you make the call), then the chance of being 2 shotted is significant enough to make a difference compared to a guard who would not be 2 shotted and would statistically see less of these 2 devs in a row than a warden. In addition, if the dmg increases as I think it will in the next raid, then it will take much more in the way of HoTs to close the mitigation gap (assuming we have time to enough hots at all). Pre-RoI I pretty much stated what you stated, but then I was more of a self heal tank and was looking at the raids we had and the inc damage we faced. In those situations, yes our self heals more than made up for the mitigation/BPE/Crit differences we were seeing. Now .... those differences appear to be much greater.
i am sure that something is broken here.
an archnemesis has 7500 critical rating and warden cant remember exactly but its ~3000 without the relics?
So 7500-3000=4500critical rating.
i dont know for sure how much 4500rating is but im sure is less than 13-14%?
all the posters critically hit from 15+ to 25%.And i dont count PBE.
unless the formula is something like that.
roll 1-15 block
roll 15-30 parry
roll 30-45 evade
roll 45-86 normal hit
roll 86-100 critical hit
or
if roll 45-100 then reroll
roll 1-86 normal hit
roll 86-100 critical hit
(i dont count partials or dev crits is just an example)
i dont think is that way cause is not logical and depending of evendale's stats he had normal % of crits.
Grand Member Online status:
Reputation:
RIP LOTRO
Senior Member Online status:
With regards to the screenshots, I wonder what traits/relics you are using Evendale vs Glorno ... that may account for the large discrepency in partial blocks. It also may just be that you have your block really high so that it is overcap and you are adding to partials that way. I am also curious if either of you are running any crit defense relics or probably more appropriate, what you crit defense is. I was expecting us to be closer there and these may just be statistical anomalies or build differences. I am not logged in right now but from memory want to say my crit def is around 3k
Grand Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Originally Posted by thunderchickn
Grand Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Reply With Quote
Posting Permissions
