Total morale doesn't really factor into TTD, unless you are considering WCS-TTD (ie: chance of death by spike damage) in which case Champions have the mitigation advantage greatly in their favor. Warden self healing is probably better than Champion morale Bubbles but not by a lot and certainly not for Spike damage.
Why not? Champion = 151.1 TPS. My Warden = 127.5 TPS. Let's say the morale bubbles and the heals are a wash.
Can you explain to me how this doesn't mean the Warden has a larger TTD? Also, why doesn't morale matter? TTD is a calculation of how long you will survive on your own isn't it? Wouldn't more morale mean living longer? How does a Warden with 13,000 morale taking 127.5 damage per second not live longer than a Champion with 10,000 morale taking 151.1 damage per second? The larger average hit on the Warden doesn't matter if he is taking them less often and coming out with less damage taken over the same amount of time.
Why not? Champion = 151.1 TPS. My Warden = 127.5 TPS. Let's say the morale bubbles and the heals are a wash.
Can you explain to me how this doesn't mean the Warden has a larger TTD? Also, why doesn't morale matter? TTD is a calculation of how long you will survive on your own isn't it? Wouldn't more morale mean living longer? How does a Warden with 13,000 morale taking 127.5 damage per second not live longer than a Champion with 10,000 morale taking 151.1 damage per second? The larger average hit on the Warden doesn't matter if he is taking them less often and coming out with less damage taken over the same amount of time.
Warden 117's parse lasted longer than the Champion parse but he was hit less. This is presumably almost entirely because of the way each group happened to do the Draigoch fight. The amount of in-combat down time where the head is not active (you are taking no hits) is dependent on when the group kills the paws relative to when Draigoch last phased. The Champion parse happened to be several minutes shorter, even though the Champion actually took more attacks. Since Draigoch's Head's attack speed is never debuffed, we know the Champion was actually getting hit by the head longer than Warden 117.
==> It would be stupid to look at TPS
Warden 117: Total Dmg/Attacks = 345.2/210 = 1.644
Your parse: Total Dmg/Attacks = 493.2/303 = 1.628
Champion: Total Dmg/Attacks = 347.9/217 = 1.603
==> Champ took slightly less damage
Note that all three parses include some hits from paws/molten storm lowering the values. Your parse (being the longest) benefited the most from that. The Champion parse was the shortest and so benefited the least. We'd be better off looking at parses from phase 1 and 2 only.
eg: Your damage per attack in phase 1 = 236.1/135 = 1.749
It was all very close, with the poorly geared Champion being slightly ahead of the best two warden parses and considerably ahead of the worst one(s), ignoring morale bubbles. Hmmm......
Assuming healers are able to keep you up (one can only hope...), more morale does not mean you will live longer. Only when healers get behind (which usually happens as a result of spike damage) does morale really matter.
Warden 117's parse lasted longer than the Champion parse but he was hit less. This is presumably almost entirely because of the way each group happened to do the Draigoch fight. The amount of in-combat down time where the head is not active (you are taking no hits) is dependent on when the group kills the paws relative to when Draigoch last phased. The Champion parse happened to be several minutes shorter, even though the Champion actually took more attacks. Since Draigoch's Head's attack speed is never debuffed, we know the Champion was actually getting hit by the head longer than Warden 117.
==> It would be stupid to look at TPS
Thank you, I understand what you were saying now. The TPS is not relevant because of the specifics of the fight, not because of what TPS is. That's what was confusing me about what you're saying, I thought you were saying TPS is useless on the face of it.
I also only brought up morale for the TTD formula. I do believe morale is important in that equation only because it is a measure of your survivability with no outside help. The more morale you have in that calculation, the better that much is pretty clear. A lot of people (myself included) think TTD is really the one number most important for evaluating a tank because it takes into account their incoming damage (and all related calculations) as well as how well they can keep themselves alive through heals or other skills (and all related calculations). The main strength of Wardens is in the surviving part, U5 will give a decent amount of help with that. We'll see if it's enough to make heals viable in raids, hard to argue with 130+ HPS from one skill.
Warden 117: Total Dmg/Attacks = 345.2/210 = 1.644
Your parse: Total Dmg/Attacks = 493.2/303 = 1.628
Champion: Total Dmg/Attacks = 347.9/217 = 1.603
==> Champ took slightly less damage
Right, that's exactly what I came up with using your simple math instead of my original and convoluted (and wrong), way of figuring it out the first time. Basically, we are in the realm of it doesn't really matter.
It was all very close, with the poorly geared Champion being slightly ahead of the best two warden parses and considerably ahead of the worst one(s), ignoring morale bubbles. Hmmm......
Now, the poorly geared bit isn't entirely true for this fight. Myst stated that he gets his mitigation to 69%, so really there can only be a 1% improvement there. The only room for real improvement is crit defense, of which he'll only be getting what, 560 at best? As far as ignoring morale bubble, are we also not ignoring HoTs? Granted, bubbles are better than HoTs up front but over the course of a whole fight, hmmm....
Honestly, what all this has shown us is warden and champ tanking is fairly even at present, in one fight... With the U5 changes I'll wager that wardens will pull ahead of champs based on the partial mit changes alone, in one fight... So, this whole ongoing drama about being 4th best tank has been grossly exaggerated.
What if in addition to my heavy armor I could get block to cap like guards can? We need to compare the classes so that we eventually are on equal net damage levels.
I could improve on almost every piece of gear I have, every relic I'm using and every virtue needs to be advanced to 12. I've also only tanked with the class one time, so I'm guessing experience would also vastly improve my champion. Compare that to my warden which could use head/shoulders from draigoch, couple raid drop jewelry pieces and me biting the bullet to upgrade to the t7 remarkable relics instead of the t6 extraordinary. As far as experience tanking goes many many more instances of tanking on my warden than on the champ.
I would love to compare HoTs to bubbles. I wish there was also a way to calculate overhealing because I don't use bubbles at full morale. Many times on my warden I'll just pop conviction again because the timer is almost up, regardless of my health. I'm guessing that isn't unique to me.
Maybe wardens can pass champs significantly after u5...maybe not. I'd love it if my warden could get a 9k crit on Draigochs body when I was shield traited too...but that's another story all together.
And just because you don't think I'm funny.
Wardens trying to tank post-RoI
Guards and Champs are better than wardens at survivability:
I could improve on almost every piece of gear I have, every relic I'm using and every virtue needs to be advanced to 12. I've also only tanked with the class one time, so I'm guessing experience would also vastly improve my champion. Compare that to my warden which could use head/shoulders from draigoch, couple raid drop jewelry pieces and me biting the bullet to upgrade to the t7 remarkable relics instead of the t6 extraordinary. As far as experience tanking goes many many more instances of tanking on my warden than on the champ.
Lets just be realistic, please. You've stated that your mit is 69%, all the jewelry in world and all virtues to 12 are not going to bring your mit above 70%, so, that's a wash. You might be able to pick up a negligible amount of P&E on some jewelry, maybe... All that is left is crit defense.
Don't forget, I've had my champ at 75 for quite some time now and he is very well geared out except for losing out on all the good jewelry drops. I've tanked with him a lot, just not the dragon. Warden tanking and champ tanking are virtually the same when it comes to taking a beating, just like your parse shows us. It's the guards that are the superior tanks.
I would love to compare HoTs to bubbles. I wish there was also a way to calculate overhealing because I don't use bubbles at full morale. Many times on my warden I'll just pop conviction again because the timer is almost up, regardless of my health. I'm guessing that isn't unique to me.
Bubbles will always be better than HoTs, unless something drastically changes. Bubbles are for OS moments, HoTs are not.
Guards and Champs are better than wardens at survivability:
Guards are, champs aren't. Even if champs were, why would I be mad when I have a champ? Wardens being tanks have nothing to do with wardens being my (slightly), favorite class to play. It's just that I enjoy tanking more on my warden vs. champ because I find it to be more engaging and fun tanking on my warden.
Lets just be realistic, please. You've stated that your mit is 69%, all the jewelry in world and all virtues to 12 are not going to bring your mit above 70%, so, that's a wash. You might be able to pick up a negligible amount of P&E on some jewelry, maybe... All that is left is crit defense.
Meh, plenty of areas to improve on. Tank it once on your well geared and well played champ, let me know how it goes.
Originally Posted by horus418
Don't forget, I've had my champ at 75 for quite some time now and he is very well geared out except for losing out on all the good jewelry drops. I've tanked with him a lot, just not the dragon. Warden tanking and champ tanking are virtually the same when it comes to taking a beating, just like your parse shows us. It's the guards that are the superior tanks.
I can only aspire to as great one day. No arguments here, guards are the superior tanks. I think champs > wardens right now - we'll have to disagree.
Originally Posted by horus418
Bubbles will always be better than HoTs, unless something drastically changes. Bubbles are for OS moments, HoTs are not.
I wish wardens had bubbles for the larger OS moments we seem to get b/c of larger crits. HoTs were great in poison wing and Fear...those were the days. NS is pretty awesome OS skill, but 1 good one vs a lot of them on the champ --- champ > warden.
Originally Posted by horus418
Guards are, champs aren't. Even if champs were, why would I be mad when I have a champ? Wardens being tanks have nothing to do with wardens being my (slightly), favorite class to play. It's just that I enjoy tanking more on my warden vs. champ because I find it to be more engaging and fun tanking on my warden.
Again disagree. I'm actually surprised you don't feel more sturdy on your champ. Even when I've been attempting tanking skraids on my champ I've felt less squishy...especially early in a pull. If my healer says its easier, I'll just have to trust his judgement.
I used to enjoy tanking on the warden. The squishyness and lack of flexibility has decreased that enjoyment for sure. Basically you were right in your thread about RoI ripping your warden heart out. Mits, bugs, scaling damage/hots, durations, other game mechanics all have ruined what I thought was going to be the new golden age of tanking for wardens.
Again disagree. I'm actually surprised you don't feel more sturdy on your champ. Even when I've been attempting tanking skraids on my champ I've felt less squishy...especially early in a pull. If my healer says its easier, I'll just have to trust his judgement.
I used to enjoy tanking on the warden. The squishyness and lack of flexibility has decreased that enjoyment for sure. Basically you were right in your thread about RoI ripping your warden heart out. Mits, bugs, scaling damage/hots, durations, other game mechanics all have ruined what I thought was going to be the new golden age of tanking for wardens.
Leveling from 65 to 75 my champ was much more sturdy and I was disappointed about that. The thing is that wardens are so much more gear dependent than champs IMO, that my warden benefits far more to all the end-game gear than my champ does, at least for tanking.
The "ripping your warden heart out", bit was a 100% joke in reference to another warden thread.
Also, something to keep in mind is that some of the current gear get a few changes in U5 that make the warden sturdier as soon as it goes live. I can't say the same for other classes though because I never checked.
Leveling from 65 to 75 my champ was much more sturdy and I was disappointed about that. The thing is that wardens are so much more gear dependent than champs IMO, that my warden benefits far more to all the end-game gear than my champ does, at least for tanking.
Only spot leveling where I felt my warden was better was against bloodmaw. I solo'd him on warden without the NPC...didn't even realize you could use one. I couldn't do it solo on the champ....me issue I know (traited wrong - and inexperienced)...but I'm sure there was a to build to solo him. Easier to ask a kinny for help than to go retrait. Thats only b/c spear traited I could still out heal the incoming damage and morale surfed him down though. Every other quest / situation I was faster or more sturdy on the champ...even running fervor 90% of the time.
Originally Posted by horus418
The "ripping your warden heart out", bit was a 100% joke in reference to another warden thread.
Obviously
Originally Posted by horus418
Also, something to keep in mind is that some of the current gear get a few changes in U5 that make the warden sturdier as soon as it goes live. I can't say the same for other classes though because I never checked.
I actually hope the warden gets fixed. Its still technically my main...even if I don't really play it or enjoy it right now. I just don't think u5 is going to be enough.
Meh, u5 will probably be a complete gear reset for every class. All the shinies we have now will get replaced by the new raid/instance shinies.
Honestly, what all this has shown us is warden and champ tanking is fairly even at present, in one fight... With the U5 changes I'll wager that wardens will pull ahead of champs based on the partial mit changes alone, in one fight... So, this whole ongoing drama about being 4th best tank has been grossly exaggerated.
Because Wardens are more susceptable to spike damage, they should be taking at least 5-10% less damage than other tanks to be equally as good (after hots/some champ bubbles/etc accounted for).
Based on the posts here, it looks like after U5, assuming the partial avoidances bonuses are additive, and with scaled HoTs, wardens should become a little better than Champions, but atm I would expect a Champion to have noticeably better all round survivability.
And we don't even know if Mist was using Invincible/etc every time he could. Judging by his posts, he probably doesn't have a very long attention span so I can't imagine he consistently keeps all buffs up on either of his toons (cf: his warden took more damage than the other wardens).
Originally Posted by Mysterion
Meh, u5 will probably be a complete gear reset for every class. All the shinies we have now will get replaced by the new raid/instance shinies.
Because Wardens are more susceptable to spike damage, they should be taking at least 5-10% less damage than other tanks to be equally as good (after hots/some champ bubbles/etc accounted for).
Based on the posts here, it looks like after U5, assuming the partial avoidances bonuses are additive, and with scaled HoTs, wardens should become a little better than Champions, but atm I would expect a Champion to have noticeably better all round survivability.
And we don't even know if Mist was using Invincible/etc every time he could. Judging by his immature posts, he probably doesn't have a very long attention span so I can't imagine he consistently keeps all buffs up on either of his toons (cf: his warden took more damage than the other wardens).
Not from what I've seen.
I was saving Invincible for pucker moments as well as bubbles. Hedge was up as much as possible. As far as my warden post, that was across two or three attempts and we actually burned him down without actually having a third phase b/c he bugged in phase 2 and we could still attack the body. The champ run was a single run straight through. I believe if you read my orginal post I mentioned that it wasn't a full run. The screenshot was just of a total before I reset it and forgot to screen shot it again. The crits and avg hit were on par with what I'd seen in other parses. Total damage is pretty irrelevant.
Those weren't the numbers from the whole fight, but they are pretty representative of what I was seeing the whole time.
Since resetting means you are doing the un-debuffed paws more often I'd think you'd probably see more total damage. I've volunteered my warden for the second alt run on sunday if you'd like a full start to finish parse.
Wardens are so advanced I think it would impossible for anyone to keep four or five self-buffs going at once. Well may be the top 1% of all players of any game anywhere. Only the most elite players in the world can even attempt it from what I've heard. You write one plugin and all of a sudden you are a god of the netz. Can you write one that reminds me to fire of WoS again after it falls off my special buffbar that shows self-buffs? It is so complicated. Mature enough?
Wait, I should probably meme this post.
Edit: Seems like I'll probably get new some new armor sets, upgrade my dragon scale cloak for sure. Haven't looked much at jewelry but I'm guessing there will be some new hawtness for most pieces. Isn't that Turbines MO with a new instance cluster? I haven't been around as long, but Northmen update and the following IotF/IC/HoN instances replaced almost all my equipped gear. Also FA LIs and probably new store relics and other stuff stuff I can buy with TP.
Last edited by Mysterion; Nov 30 2011 at 08:54 PM.
Looks like Myst finally lost it (any respect/credibility), don't listen to him Evendale the rest of us appreciate the work you do and the numbers you crunch to interact with a class you don't even play.
Looks like Myst finally lost it (any respect/credibility), don't listen to him Evendale the rest of us appreciate the work you do and the numbers you crunch to interact with a class you don't even play.
If only I'd known you had such admiration for me. I post one little champ parse and the world comes to an end. I think we know whats next....First World Problem meme
BTW - Please fix wardens soon - I'm running out of memes to use without recycling a bunch. I wish I was posting stuff like this instead
Another champ parse. It was the first time for 5/12 in the raid. Still got it done on first attempt but it took a lot longer. I employed the tank by proximity method and only took aggro if the head was targeting a LM pet or RK rock...and if it targeted me off the bat. It really made the third phase easier so my personal healer could help out with the group healing. I tanked the head the entire time. One other thing to note, in a 6b 1r build I was able to get a 15k+ crit. Next time I tank it I'm going to use the warden again for a proximity tank run as well. Only gear upgrades are a couple pieces of jewelry - and a decent SA two-hander I'd switch to for dps-body phases.
I really hope that Orion can empower the warden class to the levels of how I'm feeling while champing it up.
AW: Re: Tanking Draigoch - What I worked out so far
Originally Posted by Mysterion
Edit: seems like proximity tanking is catching on - Is it an exploit like Horus suggested?
why wouldn't it be? every other mob in the open world treated like that would go into anti-exploit, it's just due to the dragon's mechanics that it doesn't.
especially as a warden I see that it is tempting, though. however, I am quite happy that my equip is good enough by now to be okay with just a decent captain healing.
Tanked it on the warden using proximity tanking. Rolled a 1 on armor...fail. Also made a decent LI for him to go into tomorrows update with a little bit of hope.
Also ran some skirms with my kin - 6 manning skraids with me MT. May be my biggest issues are just sh!tty pugs. Either way guards and champs are much easier to excel with just because of mitigation differences. Looking forward to tomorrow though.
You just took 19,2 TPS with your warden while your Chump was taking 39,0 TSP - 110% more than your warden !
Obviously Warden armor is totally broken right now, we need a petition to improve Champions armor.
And Guards, too ! That poor fellow some 8 pages ago even took 120 TPs, more than 6times (!!!) as much damage as a warden ! And that's not counting all those selfheals that magically happen when Wardens are afk-ing like Guards do all the time. Someone call MorliX, we need a Guard petition for more armor, too !!!!!!1111elf
You just took 19,2 TPS with your warden while your Chump was taking 39,0 TSP - 110% more than your warden !
Obviously Warden armor is totally broken right now, we need a petition to improve Champions armor.
And Guards, too ! That poor fellow some 8 pages ago even took 120 TPs, more than 6times (!!!) as much damage as a warden ! And that's not counting all those selfheals that magically happen when Wardens are afk-ing like Guards do all the time. Someone call MorliX, we need a Guard petition for more armor, too !!!!!!1111elf
I agree, wardens need to be nerfed. It is getting out of hand how OP they are. There are at least 5 wardens on these forums that probably could solo Saruman. I'm not going to name names, but you know who you are.
Morlix was right guards have taken a backseat to champs, wardens and captains. They truly are awful tanks. I wish he still posted more regularly about the inequalities that guards have to live with.
Champ here who tanked the head last night~
Idk what they did to the heads aggro table but he is pretty messed up atm
But in a good way xD
Somehow he kept aggroing people on the downstairs level, or my healer, who was out if his LOS, but no cave-in were triggered. When i realized others were aggroing him and werent taking damage, I just stopped hitting him. In the entire fight, he hit me maybe twice. Since the paws and head are technically 5 different monsters, i think that when anyone initially hits/heals at the paws it draws initial aggro on the head, but I do not know why it doesnt cause a cave-in given that he cant reach them. Is it possibly because he has someone standing in front of him?
I think this is how RK stones used to glitch, but then they *fixed* it.
I guess an exploit is better than a bug, but I felt it should be addressed :P
It is true, that once the head has aggro on s.o. downstairs, you don't get any damage. It is also true, that it is an exploit in my opinion. The cave-in is not triggered, as soon as s.o. is in the head's reach, aggro or not.
Plus, as a champ you probably build aggro via damage, is that true? The head merely takes 1% damage, so I guess it is difficult for a champ to get and keep it.
It's not an exploit if they were too distracted to make it tankable by every class capable of tanking.
Why should I have to bring someone with taunts to tank it to get the fight to work right? Burden is on the devs.
Yes, you shouldn't PLAN to do it that way, but if you don't have the toons for the legit way, why shouldn't you?
It is most certainly an exploit, you can (i)rationalize your way out of it anyway you like though...
There have been many BUGS in this game that you say places the burden on the devs. People have gotten banned over it, because the BUGS allow you to EXPLOIT the content.
IMO, this is just a case of something that the devs can't fix.
It's not an exploit if they were too distracted to make it tankable by every class capable of tanking.
Why should I have to bring someone with taunts to tank it to get the fight to work right? Burden is on the devs.
Yes, you shouldn't PLAN to do it that way, but if you don't have the toons for the legit way, why shouldn't you?
I'm not sure what you mean by making it tankable by every class capable of tanking. Draigoch is probably the easiest raid boss to tank ever. I've done it before without a healer on my warden, just keeping up all my avoidance and chaining self HoT's.
He tried tanking it, but it wouldn't cooperate so he didn't exploit ####.
He's not just noble marking it or whatever the flavor of the moment way to abuse it is. He actively tried doing it the way it was supposed to, but it just would not listen because Driagoch's, as I understand it, head tends to ignore damage threat and instead goes for straight threat (which is something Champs don't have much of on their skills).
What it comes down to is this should have been discovered in some stage of testing and the fight adjusted to account for this. You just don't stubbornly keep trying to get the broken mechanic to work.
I can name a couple raid events in other MMO(s) with mechanics (some cool) that just plain had to be disabled because they never worked as intended. Either because they made the fight unbeatable, or because they made it ridiculously easy.
Should he try to repeat it? No, but there was nothing wrong with what he did the first time he did it.
Exploit as far as i know from admin work is: ussing any bug or system glitch to your advantage
The head not doing any damage onto you because he aggros somewhere else and having no cave in is clearly a bug, ussing this to not take any damage is called exploiting.
People don't really use this to pass the instance tough
If the healer healing you on the head(especially RK's) can be potencially DPSing down below then you can go trew the instance faster
To be all honest here, the instance takes like 20-25M you can rush trew faster but that's average with a good geared team and hitting most of the FM's or having 2 every flop
But as far as i know this exploit has been fixed, from my latest runs iv'e seen the head do it's cave in if the tank doesn't hit him
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Originally Posted by Evendale
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