Thread: Miss Chance Increased for Melee Combat Classes.

It seems, that Miss Chance has incresed for my Melee classes, My Burg was least effected it seems.

My warden is a sword warden with GM training, and still he misses a lot.

My captain is also Sword Equipped, but misses less than the warden.

Champion is Axe equipped, and misses on Par with Captain.

Guardian Is Hammer Equipped and misses on Par with Warden.

Burg is Dagger rarely misses.

Not sure what happened, but miss is now a % of attacks.

Can you parse and get an exact miss percentage? If you don't have it CombatAnalysis is easy to use and will give you the number of misses you had.

For comparison, when I was 65, using a halberd against level 65 and 66 enemies, I would miss less than 1% of the time. This was without the former Captain trait that supposedly reduced miss chance.

Increased miss chance may also have to do with reduced Agility for some Melee classes. I know I am about 300 points less on Agility with my Cappy since the update and gear format changes.

Originally Posted by RtrnofdMax

Can you parse and get an exact miss percentage? If you don't have it CombatAnalysis is easy to use and will give you the number of misses you had.

For comparison, when I was 65, using a halberd against level 65 and 66 enemies, I would miss less than 1% of the time. This was without the former Captain trait that supposedly reduced miss chance.

Increased miss chance may also have to do with reduced Agility for some Melee classes. I know I am about 300 points less on Agility with my Cappy since the update and gear format changes.

My classes are scattered from 65-75, so its apples to oranges at the moment.

What I suspect the issue is, is that high Agil Classes (Champ, Burg, Capt) Are doing ok, but low Agil classes that stack might/vit, are starting to see problems due to a change in the combat system.

The problem with parsing is that I don't have any pre ROI parses for my guard and warden to compare, so a 5% miss rate means nothing if I don't know what it used to be.

You need to increase your Finesse stat. Finesse replaces the old passive skills that were deleted. Finesse replaces the hit bonus we got from Agility.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

You need to increase your Finesse stat. Finesse replaces the old passive skills that were deleted. Finesse replaces the hit bonus we got from Agility.

And what about melee classes who are LVL<65? There is no Finesse to obtain, there certainly isnt suddenly a new large source of agility to offset it either.

Originally Posted by Crell_1

And what about melee classes who are LVL<65? There is no Finesse to obtain, there certainly isnt suddenly a new large source of agility to offset it either.

IIRC - Turbine stated that Finesse gear would be provided for the under 65 crowd. It apparently got cut due to lack of staff.

I understand the pain. All my characters started missing a lot more when Isengard hit. It takes a while for my level 65s to find quest rewards with Finesse. Even if quest rewards were retrofitted for the lower levels, there is no mechanism to reconsider your choices.

I did not mean to make make people upset by saying increase Finesse.

Turbine should have given all existing characters a Finesse bonus on our existing gear to compensate us for the combat system changes that has degraded our abilities. Turbine should have back filled all levels of gear to give us a way to get the necessary Finesse.

Unfortunately, it is what it is. Some customer frustration due to zero Finesse. No way to get it in some cases. Hopefully Turbine will find the staff resources to solve this issue going forward. Given the glacial speed of their progress, it may take them a year to get it done.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

IIRC - Turbine stated that Finesse gear would be provided for the under 65 crowd. It apparently got cut due to lack of staff.

I understand the pain. All my characters started missing a lot more when Isengard hit. It takes a while for my level 65s to find quest rewards with Finesse. Even if quest rewards were retrofitted for the lower levels, there is no mechanism to reconsider your choices.

I did not mean to make make people upset by saying increase Finesse.

Turbine should have given all existing characters a Finesse bonus on our existing gear to compensate us for the combat system changes that has degraded our abilities. Turbine should have back filled all levels of gear to give us a way to get the necessary Finesse.

Unfortunately, it is what it is. Some customer frustration due to zero Finesse. No way to get it in some cases. Hopefully Turbine will find the staff resources to solve this issue going forward. Given the glacial speed of their progress, it may take them a year to get it done.

I thought finesse affected enemy BPE, not miss chance?

Originally Posted by ararax2

What I suspect the issue is, is that high Agil Classes (Champ, Burg, Capt) Are doing ok, but low Agil classes that stack might/vit, are starting to see problems due to a change in the combat system.

I had to stack Finesse on my Hunter to deal with the increased misses. It is a generic problem for all classes. Even the tacticals because Finesse is used to penetrate your opponents resistance.

Where are you finding information that states Finesse governs miss chance? My finesse tool tip states that it only governs BPE and resists. As far as I know Agility still governs miss chance.

Originally Posted by 1######edtiger

As far as I know Agility still governs miss chance.

This post from Graalx2 confims that.
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...37#post5746437

Originally Posted by 1######edtiger

Where are you finding information that states Finesse governs miss chance? My finesse tool tip states that it only governs BPE and resists. As far as I know Agility still governs miss chance.

A mob parrying, blocking, or evading is just as good as me missing it entirely. While agility is the only thing directly tied to 'miss'/'accuracy', BPE/Finesse is a factor. We had passives that contributed directly to this before, and no longer have them.

My google fu is weak, as far as retrofitting finesse all the way down, but I do notice you cannot buy a scroll of finesse until level 40.; Perhaps they've changed the intended gear range to 40+?

As with any 'gear reset' or 'stat reset', it's going to take awhile to get things smoothed over.. this can be especially hard when trying to introduce new players to the game.

Originally Posted by Yula

I did not mean to make make people upset by saying increase Finesse.

You didn't make me upset, but I'm sure we'd all appreciate suggestions we can take advantage of now, whether thats using more battle lore, some +agility food, or something else to help smooth things over in the meantime.

I and several other wardens have noticed we are frequently missing with their ambush skill and as a tanking class, most stack vit then might.

Originally Posted by 1######edtiger

Where are you finding information that states Finesse governs miss chance? My finesse tool tip states that it only governs BPE and resists. As far as I know Agility still governs miss chance.

It does govern mob BPE and resists. So increase to mob Evade = increased miss chance for your attacks.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Finesse (aka Radiance 2.0).

Originally Posted by Redrider.

It does govern mob BPE and resists. So increase to mob Evade = increased miss chance for your attacks.

That is not a miss, that is an evade, there is a huge difference.

Personal opinion and conjecture aside, it would be nice if a blue name would come right out and say if Finesse does indeed govern miss chance.

Originally Posted by Redrider.

It does govern mob BPE and resists. So increase to mob Evade = increased miss chance for your attacks.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Finesse (aka Radiance 2.0).

You are incorrect here. Evades are not the same as misses. A mob can evade your attack and it will state so in the combat log. If you miss, it will state that you missed in the combat log. They are two completely different things.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

I had to stack Finesse on my Hunter to deal with the increased misses. It is a generic problem for all classes. Even the tacticals because Finesse is used to penetrate your opponents resistance.

I have to agree that finesse also reduces the chance for misses even if it doesn't state it in the tooltip. Every one one of my 65+ characters since the release of Isengard had a lot more misses upon playing it again due to the removal of the miss chance reduction passives. I noticed this a great deal with my captain and my lore master when he used staff strike or staff sweep. However, once I started getting some items with finesse on them, the number of misses has decreased. Obviously, I have not been stacking agility on my lore master. He hasn't gained a single point of that stat and yet his misses have been reduced quite a bit. My cappy's agility has fluctuated a lot depending on what gear I was messing with at the time but is probably lower right now than it was before the expansion was released but is hardly ever missing now after having stacked quite a bit of finesse.

Whether the tooltip is showing all of the information or not I do believe finesse has an effect on miss chance. If the number of misses have decreased without an increase in agility and in some cases with a decrease in agility but an increase in finesse, I think it's safe to say that finesse is the primary determining factor in miss chance now. Agility might still have an affect on miss chance but I would believe that it's a much smaller effect than what you see from finesse.

On my champ I do not notice missing a lot at all now that I am geared a bit better. before I had higher end gear I noticed it very much. but with better gear comes higher stats. and I noticed it was not due to Fin mostly based on the stats at hand. If you're noticing it often maybe worth crafting yourself new gear or instancing for better gear in the Skirms @ your lvl.

Originally Posted by 1######edtiger

Where are you finding information that states Finesse governs miss chance? My finesse tool tip states that it only governs BPE and resists. As far as I know Agility still governs miss chance.

By observing the performance of my characters. Turbine is well noted for having bad information on their tool tips. Turbine is well noted for making developer statements on the combat system which are what they believe - the game is laughing at them - the software does not work the way the developer thinks it does.

Let me write a little bit. Try to not be too big a word smith here. I am after results - more inflicted damage on my opponents.

Basic combat is a three step process:

1) You swing. You can hit or miss. Miss generates no damage.

2) You hit - your opponent avoids all damage via a Block, Parry or evade.

3) Mitigation reduces the total damage generated.


From a result perspective, 1 and 2 are the same thing. No damage to the target. Very bad. You want to always get to step 3.

What did Turbine do with the combat system it is not totally clear. Turbine removed all the nice passives that improved our hit chance. We are going to have more total avoidance from 1. There is not much we can do about 1. Each gear slot is limited in how much agility you can get for a specific level. Most of us already got all the agility - especially if you are a Hunter. If you are a Guardian, your primary stats are Might and Vitality, you can not stack agility - increasing agility is not a good option.

All we really can do is increase our Finesse to cut down the number of Blocks, Parries and Evade. You can find gear with Finesse and other stats like Agility and Vitality. I have not played my Guardian - I suspect there are some Finesse, Might and Vitality pieces that are sweet too.

What I have noticed, as my Finesse climbed on my Hunter not only did the Block, Parry and Evade drop. The miss rate is going down. I agree it kind of hard to tell. You do not really find pure Agility and pure Finesse items. I do not have a lot of patience to go to Galtrev. Run a Combat stat plugin. Pound away at a training dummy. I am not even sure I could do a good test. I would need to run it once with 1000 agility - zero Finesse. Again 1000 agility - 2,000 Finesse and see what happens.

Anyone asserting that Finesse affects Miss Chance should post a parse. The anecdotes are pretty much worthless especially since all the documentation suggests it has no effect. My guess is that people are just going up against slightly over-leveled mobs which increases miss chance and are noticing it more than they were pre-Isen when everything was largely on level.

I'm pretty sure that it's an artifact of us losing all of our passives, including:

Accuracy: Rank 1
Accuracy: Rank 2
Accuracy: Rank 3
Accuracy: Rank 4

Not to mention 4 ranks of parry evade and block, melee tac and ranged crit, ranged evade. That's a pretty major nerf, especially for low agility classes like guards and wardens.

And I highly doubt Finess effects Miss, Miss is based on your character not on the enemy except for lv.

Originally Posted by ararax2

And I highly doubt Finess effects Miss, Miss is based on your character not on the enemy except for lv.

There's a problem with this reasoning. If your supposition is true, why were there reduced miss chance passives to begin with? It would make no sense whatsoever to have reduced miss chance passives if everything was based on your level only. Also, stacking agility used to decrease you miss chance and according to the tooltip it no longer does this. Also keep in mind that if agility was still affecting miss chance why classes such as the burg and hunter also saw dramatic increases in misses with the removal of the reduced miss chance passives. Burgs and hunters were the two classes who stacked agility like it was going out of style. There should not have been a noticeable difference due to the stacking of agility in those two classes compared to classes which don't stack agility.

Originally Posted by ararax2

I'm pretty sure that it's an artifact of us losing all of our passives, including:

Accuracy: Rank 1
Accuracy: Rank 2
Accuracy: Rank 3
Accuracy: Rank 4

I should hope that they changed the calculations for miss chance to account for this. Another factor is itemization. Before RoI, the best melee fighter items (armour sets, Sarenzers, &c.) had agility on them whether we wanted it or not. Now we can boost our favorite stats while neglecting agility.

Originally Posted by DrnknElf

There's a problem with this reasoning. If your supposition is true, why were there reduced miss chance passives to begin with?

It would make no sense whatsoever to have reduced miss chance passives if everything was based on your level only.

Also, stacking agility used to decrease you miss chance and according to the tooltip it no longer does this.

Also keep in mind that if agility was still affecting miss chance why classes such as the burg and hunter also saw dramatic increases in misses with the removal of the reduced miss chance passives.

Burgs and hunters were the two classes who stacked agility like it was going out of style. There should not have been a noticeable difference due to the stacking of agility in those two classes compared to classes which don't stack agility.

Emphasis above mine. Click the dev tracker to find one of the latest posts from Graalx2 on the topic. He confirmed that the agility stat tooltip not having the miss chance reduction is a bug. It is supposed to be fixed in the next update, if it wasn't fixed already.


To the topic at hand, what we do know about miss chance increased for melee combat classes (also ranged combat, btw).

#1 Accuracy passive skills were removed, thus all classes missing their attacks more.

#2 The worst affected by this reduced accuracy are all non-agility based classes : Guardians, Wardens, Captains, Champions and to a lesser degree Minstrels, Lore-masters and RKs. In terms of combat speed and efficacy, Might based classes have more trouble hitting their foe, period. Will based classes have their tactical attacks.

#3 Classes with Agility as their base stat (Hunters and Burglars) have suffered less from the removal of accuracy passive skills. However, they are still feeling the bite of their removal. I offer an example of Strength Stance hunters missing a lot more of their attacks compared to pre-RoI. The only solution to alleviate the miss rate is Precision stance, which reduces Hunters to a one build class.

#4 Finesse has nothing to do with increasing attack accuracy/reducing miss chance. Finesse reduces the chance of having an attack be Blocked/Parried/Evaded, for both NPCs and PCs. High-end NPCs will have high finesse of their own, allowing them the ability to smash through the defences of Guardians, Wardens and Champions.

#5 The only solution to a boss with high Finesse is to have players have high Finesse also, so that they can kill the boss faster. It's a nuclear race to the top.

#6 Players with not enough Finesse will be put aside in favour of those with high Finesse.

#7 Finesse is 0.5*(Radiance 2.0) in that its not as dramatically evident how much Finesse will become a must have stat for high end content. However, new end-game content may up this requirement dramatically. This would be a bad thing. Very bad.

Solutions

The easiest solution to the problem of having only agility increase accuracy, which clearly disfavours Might and Will based classes, is to have Might and Will respectively increase accuracy for their classes, albeit to a lesser degree than Agility does. I would contend that 2 Might = 1 Agility and that 3 Will = 1 Agility in terms of Accuracy.

Secondly, Finesse needs a serious cap on its numbers, be it a hard cap or a massive downward curve on Diminishing Returns.

***

Food for thought.

Part of a fight against a lvl 51 rare signature bug. Last time I had this miss % was in Baldur's Gate at lvl 1

Laerian missed trying to use a melee attack on Stoneshell.
Laerian scored a critical hit with Tier 3 Damage over Time on Stoneshell for 128 Light damage to Morale.
Laerian tried to use Warden's Taunt on Stoneshell but he resisted the attempt.
Laerian missed trying to use Boar's Rush on Stoneshell.
Stoneshell scored a hit with a minor melee attack on Laerian for 113 Common damage to Morale.
Laerian missed trying to use a melee attack on Stoneshell.
Laerian scored a hit with Quick Thrust on Stoneshell for 79 Ancient Dwarf-make damage to Morale.
Stoneshell scored a hit with a weak melee attack on Laerian for 106 Common damage to Morale.
Laerian scored a hit with Tier 0 Damage over Time on Stoneshell for 37 Light damage to Morale.
Laerian scored a hit with Warden's Taunt on Stoneshell.
Laerian missed trying to use a melee attack on Stoneshell.
Laerian scored a hit with Quick Thrust on Stoneshell for 104 Ancient Dwarf-make damage to Morale.
Stoneshell scored a hit with a moderate melee attack on Laerian for 123 Common damage to Morale.
Laerian scored a hit with Tier 0 Damage over Time on Stoneshell for 37 Light damage to Morale.
Laerian scored a hit with Warden's Taunt on Stoneshell.
Laerian scored a hit with a melee attack on Stoneshell for 99 Ancient Dwarf-make damage to Morale.
Laerian missed trying to use Boar's Rush on Stoneshell.

That's how the system sometimes works now, how badly can be. Against a simple bug it doesn't matter, but questing seriously or against elites we used to kill before RoI, it is simple a joke... a broken joke.

I don't like all the missing I'm getting either. I would be nice if they do something about this.

Originally Posted by DrnknElf

There's a problem with this reasoning. If your supposition is true, why were there reduced miss chance passives to begin with? It would make no sense whatsoever to have reduced miss chance passives if everything was based on your level only. Also, stacking agility used to decrease you miss chance and according to the tooltip it no longer does this. Also keep in mind that if agility was still affecting miss chance why classes such as the burg and hunter also saw dramatic increases in misses with the removal of the reduced miss chance passives. Burgs and hunters were the two classes who stacked agility like it was going out of style. There should not have been a noticeable difference due to the stacking of agility in those two classes compared to classes which don't stack agility.

The formula is 10% base miss chance
+% if its higher then your lv
-% miss if its lower
-% miss the more agility you have
-% miss for passives
-% miss for swords

Im not guessing, that is the formula, it has been for years, and theres dev posts on it.

No Finesse.

Originally Posted by DrnknElf

There's a problem with this reasoning. If your supposition is true, why were there reduced miss chance passives to begin with? It would make no sense whatsoever to have reduced miss chance passives if everything was based on your level only.

He did say it depends on the opponent's "lv" (i.e. level)

Ask yourself 1 question: Why build in a miss chance, and then give *everybody* an automatic passive bonus called Accuracy, to reduce that chance?

My explanation: I don't think the miss chance is as simple as Graalx explained in that post. I believe it is calculated using the same type of formula as those used for BPE etc... The higher your opponent's level, the lower your hit chance (hence the higher your miss chance). Now, since this kind of formula nerfs you automatically upon level up, just as the BPE etc. formula does, they tried to compensate for the auto-nerf by adding passive traits that corrected a bit for the losses in BPE, accuracy etc. This is why those bonuses came in portions, at different levels. And now that those passives are gone, we feel the full weight of the auto level-up nerfs that are due to a poor formula. A side effect of this system (your nerfs aren't fully compensated by the passives, and starting from level 50 you don't even get any stat bonuses at level up, let alone passives), or perhaps its primary reason, is that we are made more and more dependant on gear for stats. And now that the gear sets are so one-track minded, we feel the hit.

The problem goes deeper. It is that Turbine still chooses to decide for the player what kind of stats they should have. And for some reason, they even make "packages" of stats: a bit of vitality, some might, a touch of regen... Sure, they may try to create some room to let you make a "build" of some sort, as hard as this task can be (both trying to make up the "package", and trying to create a "build"). But as long as we can't choose our stats freely (within limits), we will have to suffer bad design decisions or bugs like these. They removed the passives, saying the base stats now affect BPE etc more so we can compensate for the loss, but they still make armour sets for each class, and they still choose what stats those sets should have. And they put the highest stats on those sets, so they are what everyone wants.

I think a system of points that you get when you level up, and that you allocate and re-allocate at will to make up your different stats, is the way to go. It allows you to truly change your build, and to fine tune your stats as you see fit (and to adapt or correct for a deficiency or bug such as this miss chance issue and lack of agility for most classes). In that point system there would be no "Agility", because as you know, it is useless as a stat, and so are Might, Vitality etc. The real stats you'd add points in would be B/P/E%, Offence%, Mitigation%, Miss Chance%, etc... The stats that do count.

Where would the points come from? Mainly from levelling. Perhaps even from gear, although I'd prefer to be totally independent from gear. Let all gear be outfits, and let the real stats be totally configurable by the player, within designated limits.

But that wouldn't be Lotro and it wouldn't be 90% of the players or devs who currently run this game.

Alad. I always enjoy your posts. I assume IRL you are a statistician for Reuters ( don't tell me ).

Originally Posted by Alad.

He did say it depends on the opponent's "lv" (i.e. level)

Ask yourself 1 question: Why build in a miss chance, and then give *everybody* an automatic passive bonus called Accuracy, to reduce that chance?

My explanation: I don't think the miss chance is as simple as Graalx explained in that post. I believe it is calculated using the same type of formula as those used for BPE etc... The higher your opponent's level, the lower your hit chance (hence the higher your miss chance). Now, since this kind of formula nerfs you automatically upon level up, just as the BPE etc. formula does, they tried to compensate for the auto-nerf by adding passive traits that corrected a bit for the losses in BPE, accuracy etc. This is why those bonuses came in portions, at different levels. And now that those passives are gone, we feel the full weight of the auto level-up nerfs that are due to a poor formula. A side effect of this system (your nerfs aren't fully compensated by the passives, and starting from level 50 you don't even get any stat bonuses at level up, let alone passives), or perhaps its primary reason, is that we are made more and more dependant on gear for stats. And now that the gear sets are so one-track minded, we feel the hit.

The problem goes deeper. It is that Turbine still chooses to decide for the player what kind of stats they should have. And for some reason, they even make "packages" of stats: a bit of vitality, some might, a touch of regen... Sure, they may try to create some room to let you make a "build" of some sort, as hard as this task can be (both trying to make up the "package", and trying to create a "build"). But as long as we can't choose our stats freely (within limits), we will have to suffer bad design decisions or bugs like these. They removed the passives, saying the base stats now affect BPE etc more so we can compensate for the loss, but they still make armour sets for each class, and they still choose what stats those sets should have. And they put the highest stats on those sets, so they are what everyone wants.

I think a system of points that you get when you level up, and that you allocate and re-allocate at will to make up your different stats, is the way to go. It allows you to truly change your build, and to fine tune your stats as you see fit (and to adapt or correct for a deficiency or bug such as this miss chance issue and lack of agility for most classes). In that point system there would be no "Agility", because as you know, it is useless as a stat, and so are Might, Vitality etc. The real stats you'd add points in would be B/P/E%, Offence%, Mitigation%, Miss Chance%, etc... The stats that do count.

Where would the points come from? Mainly from levelling. Perhaps even from gear, although I'd prefer to be totally independent from gear. Let all gear be outfits, and let the real stats be totally configurable by the player, within designated limits.

But that wouldn't be Lotro and it wouldn't be 90% of the players or devs who currently run this game.

Bloody marvelous suggestion!

A few things I know for a fact that have changed, and what the newly introduced Finesse will not "fix". They are also things I am very familiar with from both before and after the changes (due to loving playing lowbie alts):

Levels 1-7 in Archet on a Hunter (25 Hunters total... ;-P 15 before, 10 after.):
- Before: I did miss now and then, but it was mostly unnoticeable, and I never missed with skills, only auto-attacks. I don't actually even remember noticing misses.
- Now: I miss about 1 in 5 attacks, and I have even missed with Penetrating Shot a few times, which I don't ever remember missing with ever before. And I have leveled Hunters to various lowbie levels up to 33.

Levels 1-20 on various zones on a Champion (6 Champions total. 4 before, 2 after.):
- Before: I had misses sometimes, but they were not a real problem at all, I think 1 miss for every 20 possible hits, probably even less. And that is with on-level mobs or higher.
- Now: I haven't seen yet a Blade Wall that has hit all mobs, and I have grinded level 7 mobs for deeds at 20... Also a huge number of misses with all attack skill against all types of mobs.

I don't mind missing mobs if it's good for gameplay, but making a change that all of a sudden makes you miss all the time, when you have previously not missed at all feels downgrading the epicness that I felt before.

My toons' gear has always been as good for the level as possible, so I am and have not been lacking on stats, and also the gear is exactly the same on all toons as on the previous ones.

I know these level ranges are passed by in a few days for some, but I like lowbie gameplay (I also just switched servers) a lot more than I have ever liked playing at level cap. To me it's the ride that matters, not actually getting there.

I agree that the agility I,II,III etc... was probably a crutch for a bad formula.

If we assume there was always a 10% miss chance, then our problem is something like this:

Rank 0 = 10%
Rank 1 = 9.5%
Rank 2 = 9%
Rank 3 = 8%
Rank 4 = 7%
Rank 5 = 6%

Agility 20% of cap = -1%
Agility 40% of cap = -2%
Agility 60% of cap = -3%
Agility 80% of cap = -4%
Agility 100% of cap = -5%

Sword Use = -1%

Warden GM sword = -2%

Now most (Elf/Human) use swords, Hobbit Minstrels, Hunters, Burgs either do not need High Agility or stack Agility. The same for Dwarven Hunters and Minstrel/RKs.

So A sword using Guardian with 300 Agility at lv 60, would be looking at (6% -2.5%)= 3.5% Miss rate, or 2.5% with a sword.

A similar Warden Gm traited would be looking at 1.5%. High Agility Classes (DPS: Burg Hunt Champ) would be looking at 1%.

Now Add 4% to everyone.
Tanks are looking at a 7.5-6.5% miss chance, and DPS is looking at a 5%+ Miss Chance.

Also what is likely is that they modified the Agility to now cover the whole 10% Since there is no cap, requiring people to stack huge amounts of Agility.

Originally Posted by Alad.

My explanation: I don't think the miss chance is as simple as Graalx explained in that post. I believe it is calculated using the same type of formula as those used for BPE etc... The higher your opponent's level, the lower your hit chance (hence the higher your miss chance). Now, since this kind of formula nerfs you automatically upon level up, just as the BPE etc. formula does, they tried to compensate for the auto-nerf by adding passive traits that corrected a bit for the losses in BPE, accuracy etc. This is why those bonuses came in portions, at different levels. And now that those passives are gone, we feel the full weight of the auto level-up nerfs that are due to a poor formula. A side effect of this system (your nerfs aren't fully compensated by the passives, and starting from level 50 you don't even get any stat bonuses at level up, let alone passives), or perhaps its primary reason, is that we are made more and more dependant on gear for stats. And now that the gear sets are so one-track minded, we feel the hit.

I have to take issue with a couple points in this:

1. Actually, the passives are basically a legacy of the time when the passive were straight +% bonuses. The problem with the straight percentage system was, by maximizing avoidances, you could get a total avoidance of around 93% (may have actually been 97% - I didn't save the calculations). Given that standard tank avoidances were around ... 40% or so, I think, anything that would challenge a tank with 90%+ avoidances, would probably one-shot a tank with 40% avoidances. Enter the rating and cap system. At that point, most of the percentage bonuses were changed into 4 * level bonuses, because that was roughly 1%. At the bottom of the curve. I don't think they were ever intended as ... well, anything. Someone figured out what the equivalent rating of the passive should've been, and they were changed to that, and ... I don't think anyone thought about them all that much afterwards.

2. What BPE nerf? My LM's avoidance total is higher at level 75 than it was at 65. That's 65 pre-RoI.

3. Given that there's only six pieces of gear that are really class specific/restricted (all the armor slots, excluding the cloak) out of a total of fifteen - that's not much locking in that you're dealing with. If you feel your armor is too one-track minded, fill your other slots with gear that's one-track minded in another way.

(My current mental model for gearing is - every single piece of gear has a major attribute (that's not entirely true, but it's good enough for a rough model) - major attribute gives you about +100 of the attribute. You've got fifteen slots, again using my LM as an example, since he's an LM his armor will take up six slots, each of these will have will as its major attribute (again, not entirely true, but true enough, especially if I get the raid set). That leaves nine slots that can be allocated as I want. So for him, I've said, nine slots are will/fate, four slots are agility, and two slots are vitality. I prioritize agility over vitality, because I have limited self heals, so minimizing damage to a point where my self heals can keep up is more important than having a large chunk of morale. It works out. Roughly.)

Originally Posted by N.Legler

Alad. I always enjoy your posts. I assume IRL you are a statistician for Reuters ( don't tell me ).

Thanks Why statistician? And why Reuters? LOL. Don't worry, I'm neither.

Originally Posted by moebius92

I have to take issue with a couple points in this:

Always fun to discuss with you moebius

I remember the days of % passives. They were either intended to reflect the fact that you got better as you levelled up, which is great, or to compensate for some level-up shortcoming (I call this type of thing "nerf" ) which existed even back then, before the infamous R/(R+KL) formula, which nerfs you with every level up you achieve (same rating, higher level = lower %). I don't know why they gave them to us automatically. I do know that the ratings they gave later were not enough to compensate the level-up nerfs.

I do understand your way of attempting to configure your character's stats with what's available. That's what we all do, in one way or another. What else can we do? I just think it would be better to have more configuration options by allowing us to allocate points to the stats we want and try out different builds.

2. What BPE nerf? My LM's avoidance total is higher at level 75 than it was at 65. That's 65 pre-RoI.

I mean nerfs while "naked"; no traits or gear slots equipped at all. At least that's what I was talking about in the paragraph you quoted; the level-up nerfs which affect not only BPE, but all rating to % converted stats. I.e. all the stats that really count (excepting morale, power and regeneration). You train for 10 more levels and you become worse.

Originally Posted by Alad.

Why statistician? And why Reuters? LOL. Don't worry, I'm neither.

Well...your writing style says to me 'news organization'...but it's not quite AP standard...maybe >gasp< you like to Read the news...and statistician seems the most likely 'number lover' in journalism...

Seriously, is one or more of the dev's trying to kill this game? This miss percentage is absolutely *over the top*. Why did they feel this was needed? The game is hard enough to solo. Some of us don't want to group and this miss-fiasco has just made it almost intolerable. The Dev's are out of control. As soon as I can pull an updated SEC report I'll voice my concerns to the SZC/Warner Bros. board. So sad... Like WoW; you are killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

Originally Posted by DaleofDale

Seriously, is one or more of the dev's trying to kill this game? This miss percentage is absolutely *over the top*. Why did they feel this was needed? The game is hard enough to solo. Some of us don't want to group and this miss-fiasco has just made it almost intolerable. The Dev's are out of control. As soon as I can pull an updated SEC report I'll voice my concerns to the SZC/Warner Bros. board. So sad... Like WoW; you are killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

If it helps you feel better, grouping won't help reduce your miss chance, save for some extra Agility if you happen to be with a Captain using IDOME.

In order for an attack to be BPE it first must hit the enemy. If an attack misses an enemy it has no chance to be BPE since it didn't hit the enemy in the first place.

There are two things that affect your Miss Chance, those are Agility and the passive wield effect from 1H/2H Swords.

Once your attack connects with the enemy then you can use your Finesse to determine whether your attack will be BPE.

Do not confuse Miss Chance with Finesse, they are two completely different things.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

There are two things that affect your Miss Chance, those are Agility and the passive wield effect from 1H/2H Swords.

There is another type of "Miss chance" which applies to all types of skills (Melee, Ranged and Tactical -- the first type of miss chance you talk about does not affect Tactical skills), and which is affected by level difference. It is also reported in the combat log and on screen as "Missed" (whence some confusion). Agility and weapon type cannot improve this second type of miss. Nothing can, AFAIK. The higher the enemy's level compared to you, the higher your miss chance. In my latest "tests" with Burglar and Rune-keeper, I could defeat enemies that were 7 levels higher than me (say 66 vs. 73) while missing a lot, but never 8 levels higher due to the excessive miss chance of the second type.

Gotta love screwed mechanics...