Thread: Why make Draigoch so easy???

If you've been there you know what I mean. This was a big selling point of RoI - "Master the new 24 man raid". Can anyone see a 24 man raid? I certainly can't, all I can see is a fairly easy 12 man raid that you could opt to take a few more people on if you wanted. Once you have done it once there is no reason why you shouldn't do it first time every subsequent time (apologies in advance for jinxing our next effort).

Also, it is pretty boring, especially the first 75% of the fight. Considering it takes around 90 minutes to complete (I'm sure 60 mins is possible if you nail the CJ's first time) that's a long time to fight with no real danger of dying. If anyone does happen to die (normally due to a bug) then no worries you'll be OOC every minute or so so you don't even need IC rezzes. The group make up is also largely irrelevant too. One tank, one cappie, one burg (enjoy it while it lasts burgs) a couple of healers and the rest can be randoms. Considering this is supposed to be a 24 man raid it could easily be 9 manned and theoretically could be 6-manned although this would take a loooong time.

I love the idea of the fight, I just think it could have been epic but fell short. It should have been T2 level of difficulty on T1 with 24 people. Then the HM could be just that - Hard. We should have been chasing him through tunnels from cave to cave, dealing with waves of trash, getting raid-wide 5k hits, getting burned a lot, swapping tanks, running low on power all the time, all the things that make a great raid and make lots of different classes required.

Compared to some of the T2 OD fights this one is a walk in the park. It's a shame OD wasn't released with RoI at level 75. Or allow us to do it now on 75 for a 75 version of the OD armour complete with set bonuses.

Originally Posted by Aisolon

I'm gonna take a wild guess here:
80% of the lotro players hasn't even attempted the Draigoch raid yet.
Maybe the hardcore raid kinships and players look to it as a walk in the park.
Casual players really don't.

If you want a challenge;
I hear Icy Crevasse T2 is quite difficult.

I really don't see how this changes the fact that it is a faceroll easy fight.

Originally Posted by Aisolon

80% of the lotro players hasn't even attempted the Draigoch raid yet.
Maybe the hardcore raid kinships and players look to it as a walk in the park.
Casual players really don't.

If they didnt try it how do they know it is not walk in the park? Actually it is easy even for the most casual player (assuming they know how to play at least somewhat).

If you cant perform the simplest CJ, dont understand the meaning up "group up" and "dont stand in fire", then the problem is not in being a casual.

I'm gonna take a wild guess here:
80% of the lotro players hasn't even attempted the Draigoch raid yet.
Maybe the hardcore raid kinships and players look to it as a walk in the park.
Casual players really don't.

If you want a challenge;
I hear Icy Crevasse T2 is quite difficult.

At first Draigoch was intended to be a free pre-RoI raid, just another one near BG and OD. It wasnt designed to be a main raid, it was designed to be a fun alternative to "normal" raids.

But the things went as we know they went and now Draigoch is the main raid for the next 1.5 month, but Turbine obviously didnt have time to make it challenging.

I hope that new raid in Update 5 will be a real challenge...

Originally Posted by Wilksie

If you've been there you know what I mean. This was a big selling point of RoI - "Master the new 24 man raid". Can anyone see a 24 man raid? I certainly can't, all I can see is a fairly easy 12 man raid that you could opt to take a few more people on if you wanted. Once you have done it once there is no reason why you shouldn't do it first time every subsequent time (apologies in advance for jinxing our next effort).

Also, it is pretty boring, especially the first 75% of the fight. Considering it takes around 90 minutes to complete (I'm sure 60 mins is possible if you nail the CJ's first time) that's a long time to fight with no real danger of dying. If anyone does happen to die (normally due to a bug) then no worries you'll be OOC every minute or so so you don't even need IC rezzes. The group make up is also largely irrelevant too. One tank, one cappie, one burg (enjoy it while it lasts burgs) a couple of healers and the rest can be randoms. Considering this is supposed to be a 24 man raid it could easily be 9 manned and theoretically could be 6-manned although this would take a loooong time.

I love the idea of the fight, I just think it could have been epic but fell short. It should have been T2 level of difficulty on T1 with 24 people. Then the HM could be just that - Hard. We should have been chasing him through tunnels from cave to cave, dealing with waves of trash, getting raid-wide 5k hits, getting burned a lot, swapping tanks, running low on power all the time, all the things that make a great raid and make lots of different classes required.

Compared to some of the T2 OD fights this one is a walk in the park. It's a shame OD wasn't released with RoI at level 75. Or allow us to do it now on 75 for a 75 version of the OD armour complete with set bonuses.

Draigoch was MEANT to be a pug friendly raid.

This also was meant to be at level 65 in Edenwaith. So take that into picture. Not even half the damage some of us put out now, nor half the healing and now guardians or wardens having 15K + And only just making through phase two. A 11K buffed up guardian at best at 65 Ses it's a very different picture.

I love it how peeps always say how easy something is then I go and try it only to disover to me they're ultra hard. Curse you elite players! ... Darn tricky I say.

Yes it's a shame it's so very easy. The first day, first attempt we figured what to do in the first phase, then 2nd phase we had some bad luck and wiped. 2nd try we figured tactics in 2nd phase, then wiped in 3rd since that part came as a surprise. Then next try we knew what to do in the 3rd phase and voila, boss dead. Without any burgs at that time only captains using kick, lm with bog lurker and grd with that fm opener move.

There are already plenty of difficult content. Want difficult? Go do the Lieutenant HM with a pug, or try Watcher without ranged dps. Or you can always run OD or Fornost or a whole host of other instances on level.

More difficult != better.
More deaths != better.
More tedous/grindy/annoying != better.

Draigoch is balanced just fine.

Originally Posted by CFury

Why something like raid cant be challenging and fun for at least average player? Why everything has to be tailored to people with two left hands and incapable of grasping some very simple concepts?

+rep man

Thats the problem of many modern games, not only LOTRO raids.

EDIT: OMG that forum is bugged as hell, Im replying to the post, that will be posted in 6 minutes...

I'm fine with Draigoch being easy. There are no new 3mans and 6mans for the non-elite, so I want that dragon to be accessible to everyone.

This raid was meant to be puggable, its simply the Endenwaith version of the turtle. Some people will get the strategy down quickly, others won't. To come onto the forums blah blah blah'ing about how easy it is sounds to me like someone looking for attention and whom could really care less how easy it is.

Look at the dragon raid for what it is...a simple dps marathon meant to get more people involved in raiding and learing to group...nothing more, nothing less.

If you want a challenge, wait until update 5 (which was suppossed to be included in RoI), that's where the challenge will be.

Originally Posted by LadyDena

There are already plenty of difficult content. Want difficult? Go do the Lieutenant HM with a pug, or try Watcher without ranged dps. Or you can always run OD or Fornost or a whole host of other instances on level.

More difficult != better.
More deaths != better.
More tedous/grindy/annoying != better.

Draigoch is balanced just fine.

Another "if you want difficult invent your own artificial challenge" statement. Why would anyone have to do that? Why something like raid cant be challenging and fun for at least average player? Why everything has to be tailored to people with two left hands and incapable of grasping some very simple concepts?

It is not "balanced fine". It is easy, long and boring.

Did you guys happen to have a lot of symbols saved up from constant skirmishing to be able to hit 75 and just get the armor right then and there for the most part? Most people won't be able to do that. Also, when you do something a lot, regardless of how difficult something might seem to be, if you mesh together well, it's going to be completed and still seem easy, but only to you. Anyone watching is going to say 'Holy, how'd you manage that?!" This is a subjective interpretation of the event you have. Not everyone is going to find it the same. In fact, say Turbine does adjust the difficulty. It might make the thing impossible for the casual player. Is that your goal? If you want a challenge, set it up as T3 and use 6 people. You do have the ability to do that to yourself, it shouldn't be up to Turbine to scale the default just to make you think it's hard for you, and you alone.

Originally Posted by CFury

Another "if you want difficult invent your own artificial challenge" statement.

Since when is fighting Fornost, or OD, on level an 'artificial challenge'? Pugging is an artificial challenge? Sorry dude, pugging is a REALITY of all MMOs.

Originally Posted by Wilksie

<snip> one burg (enjoy it while it lasts burgs) <snip>

I will! Its nice to be wanted for a change, lol.

I'd pin Draigoch somewhere in between turtle and Watcher in terms of difficulty. It's a lair raid that was never intended to be the main focus of end game. You really shouldn't expect very much from it, or any lair raid for that matter.

Thank Eru the cloak from his scales is worth having otherwise I'm not sure many people would both doing it more than once. At least it gives everyone time to level up their alts without worrying about missing good content!

I haven't tried this, but I'll respond to the OP's concerns...

I like the thought of some content being easy and some hard. My only preference is that loot scales with difficulty. For instance, I'm happy that school and library are easy and that they give nice rewards. I'm not happy that they give MORE rewards (in terms of S4Ms being on a daily reset) than the much more difficult raid.

We haven't seen the new instances coming yet, so I'm hoping there is an option for more difficult content with better rewards. The idea is to make content for everyone. All raids should not be hard. All solo quests should not be easy. Variety is nice. (again, my only concern is that there is reward for choosing the more difficult path).

If Draigoch is easy, great! the reward should be reflected by that.
If the new instances coming are very difficult, great! they should offer a reward unique to their difficulty.

Originally Posted by Wilksie

If you've been there you know what I mean. This was a big selling point of RoI - "Master the new 24 man raid". Can anyone see a 24 man raid? I certainly can't, all I can see is a fairly easy 12 man raid that you could opt to take a few more people on if you wanted. Once you have done it once there is no reason why you shouldn't do it first time every subsequent time (apologies in advance for jinxing our next effort).

Also, it is pretty boring, especially the first 75% of the fight. Considering it takes around 90 minutes to complete (I'm sure 60 mins is possible if you nail the CJ's first time) that's a long time to fight with no real danger of dying. If anyone does happen to die (normally due to a bug) then no worries you'll be OOC every minute or so so you don't even need IC rezzes. The group make up is also largely irrelevant too. One tank, one cappie, one burg (enjoy it while it lasts burgs) a couple of healers and the rest can be randoms. Considering this is supposed to be a 24 man raid it could easily be 9 manned and theoretically could be 6-manned although this would take a loooong time.

I love the idea of the fight, I just think it could have been epic but fell short. It should have been T2 level of difficulty on T1 with 24 people. Then the HM could be just that - Hard. We should have been chasing him through tunnels from cave to cave, dealing with waves of trash, getting raid-wide 5k hits, getting burned a lot, swapping tanks, running low on power all the time, all the things that make a great raid and make lots of different classes required.

Compared to some of the T2 OD fights this one is a walk in the park. It's a shame OD wasn't released with RoI at level 75. Or allow us to do it now on 75 for a 75 version of the OD armour complete with set bonuses.

I feel bad for you if this was a selling point for ROI, especially since that raid was supposed to be FREE months ago with the anniversary update, and they fell behind, and tossed it into ROI.

Hucklebarry - I agree with your sentiments. Unfortunately the Dragon drops some of the best loot available in the game. The first time you complete HM you automatically get a Worn Symbol, then there are 3 - 5 scales that can be crafted into a cloak that is significantly better then anything we have ever seen.

Chetdawg - it isnt me that saw it as a selling point - http://isengard.lotro.com/index.php. Their 3 selling points were; discover 3 new regions, advance to 75 and master the 24 player Raid. Funnily enough they describe it as:

"Battle the ancient evil of Draigoch, one of the most powerful creatures in Middle-earth! Prepare for the ultimate challenge where nothing less than the strength of an entire force of 24 heroes stands the chance of victory."

Nothing less than 24 people - LOL.

Draigoch was designed to be fairly easy so that it would appeal to a larger group of players who normally wouldn't even consider raiding. In an interview with Casual Stroll into Mordor, the devs stated that the new armor sets could be obtained by anyone, faster for the raiders and slower for the casual player. I think it's a nice addition to have. Many of us aren't in kinships that necessarily focus on doing the big end-game raids or even have the players to do so. Moreover, many pug raids end up failing entirely and further dissuade people from pursuing them.

Draigoch presents a unique opportunity in that it makes end-game gear accessible to many more people; once update 5 hits in a month or two, these people will then have the gear and the motivation to participate in the new instances.

It certainly isn't a tremendously difficult raid, but that's fine. I see no problem with it.

It's easy? Woohoo! Maybe I'll be able to do it!

One person's 'easy' != universally easy.

The first ones to down draigoch on gladden were a pug in glff. Just saying.


Dear god, this thread is so bugged out. Almost none of the posts are in order or anything.

It's not overly 'easy' but it's definitely not difficult. It's really not Turtle easy. It's between Watcher and Turtle in difficulty which is about right for it's target.

We'll get an OD like raid with Update 5 most likely.

Originally Posted by LadyDena

Since when is fighting Fornost, or OD, on level an 'artificial challenge'? Pugging is an artificial challenge? Sorry dude, pugging is a REALITY of all MMOs.

Pugging is what it is and raids are generally not supposed to be PuG friendly. If you play with people who are completely ignorant and incapable, yes it can be a challenge, but that should not be a norm to measure content.
I have been through lot of PuGs and lot of them were perfectly capable of doing even the most "challenging" content.
In all MMOs I played so far raids were for the most part a thing you do at endgame when people are supposed to know how to play. Apparently only LotRO seems to be the exception.

And btw, I am not a "dude", dude. I might not have "Lady" in my nickname but that doesnt mean I cant be the one

Due to circumstances concerning the kinship I'd been in for a very long time pretty much dying, along with my having to take a long break from the game awhile back, I have not really gotten to do any raids. I'm kind of relieved to hear that this might not result in multiple wipes before completion for the somewhat inexperienced. I don't begrudge experienced players their challenging raids and instances, but I thought tiers were sort of supposed to be the answer to such problems.

As I said, I am not experienced with end-game content, or even stuff that used to be end-game, so enlighten me if necessary, but things like this offer chances for everyone to acquire the nifty stuff that comes from raiding. Since we aren't having pvp fights against each other, I don't see where that's a disadvantage where gear is concerned. If anything, it means that, if you have to fill a group with a random or two, they are more likely to be better equipped.

Draigoch is the new Turtle, in so much that just about any group can go in there and beat it. Other than Draigoch being a waaaaaaay longer than the turtle, they are the same beast.

Once we went in without a bunch of people who hadn't slept, we did just fine. Not one issue, other than the other mini disconnecting several times. Way, Way too easy for T2 HM.

I understand that it's nice for some of the casual players to have a new raid, but on T2 HM, it should NOT be that easy. And to be honest, brand new raids are always made for the elitists, and I wish it had stayed that way. This whole expansion was made for the casual player. Everything is soloable or at the most, pugable. Nothing I've seen has made me throw anything, or rage in frustration, or run downstairs to scream with my roommate about how bad that instance/quest/group was.

When casuals want to raid, they should go to the last raid, not the current one. The newest raid should be difficult for even the best of players. If there's no challenge, what's the point?


***Please don't think I'm looking down on casual players, for any reason. I fully believe everyone has the right to play whatever style they desire, as long as it doesn't hamper others.

Originally Posted by Malephor

The first ones to down draigoch on gladden were a pug in glff. Just saying.


Dear god, this thread is so bugged out. Almost none of the posts are in order or anything.

Like all the servers atm, this would have been a 'PUG'. Otherwise known as the hardcore players who hit 75 in the first two days, most of whom are already elite raiders, got together with other elite raiders and went & did it. This is not the average player, the average player might not even be 75 yet depending how much they've been online, & there are plenty of groups having wipe after wipe on Draigoch as they have trouble adjusting to the movement patterns.

This is not a PUG level raid. I definitely won't be bringing people I don't know or trust.

It takes much much longer than Turtle and Watcher. The group can wipe and individuals can die at every single turn. You will die at any moment you don't pay attention for the entire one to two hours. The sheer length of it is taxing enough. No other fights in the game last this long. I don't think that few seconds of OOC state in between flights count as breaks.

Of all the people here who are saying it's too easy, how many have actually done it without referring to all the walkthroughs and especially the CJ lists posted by beta-testers who did all the work in cracking the puzzle?

so it's content that the majority of the people playing the game might be able to take a crack at one day? aww gee thats aweful can't have that! given the focus turbine put on the tech making it something only 5% of the games population would even dream of even TRYING is stupid

Originally Posted by BrianDavion

so it's content that the majority of the people playing the game might be able to take a crack at one day? aww gee thats aweful can't have that! given the focus turbine put on the tech making it something only 5% of the games population would even dream of even TRYING is stupid

Pure win.

123

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Of all the people here who are saying it's too easy, how many have actually done it without referring to all the walkthroughs and especially the CJ lists posted by beta-testers who did all the work in cracking the puzzle?

Wanted to. Really, the best part of any new content is the mind numbing trial and error of figuring out the new raids. Love it. "No you can't go to sleep!"

Originally Posted by BrianDavion

so it's content that the majority of the people playing the game might be able to take a crack at one day? aww gee thats aweful can't have that! given the focus turbine put on the tech making it something only 5% of the games population would even dream of even TRYING is stupid

The majority of the players can take a crack at ANY content in the game, some of them just need to wait a few levels (or get better gear, more skill, ect). I don't think the problem here is that there's a new raid that casuals can pug, it's that there's NOT a new raid for elitist players who have a decent amount of skill and the time to sink into learning a new, intense strat. I know I know, in December, 2+ months AFTER launch of ROI.

24 man raid...LOL! My Kin downed the T1 Draigoch with 18 poorly geared peeps who had never been there before. At least you actually sort of need 12 for the T2 Challenge version, but this raid is stupid easy. Granted, Draigoch and his lair look really good. But the fight itself is a joke.

OD was so fantastic, but alas, a 10-level bump and now that content isn't relevant anymore. Maybe the new Instance Cluster will be good, but that's two months away. Truly, two huge shortcomings for WB/Turbine.

RoI is such a disappointment on so many levels. Sad thing is that I really wanted to enjoy it. BF3 in a week and a half and then it's part-time LOTRO for me. Not sure what will happen when SWTOR rolls around.

Originally Posted by BernardG

Like all the servers atm, this would have been a 'PUG'. Otherwise known as the hardcore players who hit 75 in the first two days, most of whom are already elite raiders, got together with other elite raiders and went & did it. This is not the average player, the average player might not even be 75 yet depending how much they've been online, & there are plenty of groups having wipe after wipe on Draigoch as they have trouble adjusting to the movement patterns.

Just because you are a hardcore player doesn't mean you have skill.....

Originally Posted by BernardG

Like all the servers atm, this would have been a 'PUG'. Otherwise known as the hardcore players who hit 75 in the first two days, most of whom are already elite raiders, got together with other elite raiders and went & did it. This is not the average player, the average player might not even be 75 yet depending how much they've been online, & there are plenty of groups having wipe after wipe on Draigoch as they have trouble adjusting to the movement patterns.

If you can follow directions and complete a unique FM, this raid will not take more than a few tries to complete. I would consider the average player capable of doing that. If people are seriously going in there wipe after wipe, then I would have to say they are below average players. There is nothing elite about Draigoch at all.

honestly, if this game doesn't cater to the eliteist raider thats fine by me, and if the raid is easy eneugh for casuals to do? GREAT.

Originally Posted by Aisolon

I'm gonna take a wild guess here:
80% of the lotro players hasn't even attempted the Draigoch raid yet.
Maybe the hardcore raid kinships and players look to it as a walk in the park.

This is true. It is a common occurrence for regular raiders to declare that something is a face roll when others find it difficult. I have even seen some players mock others for asking for help. I think people using the phrase "face roll" don't really care how hard it is or isn't for other players, instead they're just showing off.