TLDR- Solo player- Want them in skirmish camp- Long post of bad logic and solo player whining
As a mostly Solo player I would very much like the Worn Symbol to be in the Skirmish Camp for several reasons:
1. Third Age Weapons will always be temporary as results they are not worth putting Relic's into. Eventually, nearly everyone will end up with a 2nd age. The current wait is simply an annoying delay of the inevitable. Currently on my server they sell for 200 Gold. I can afford one as can most people with a couple hours time. The price however, is more than the item is worth and having to give a Raider 200 gold is distasteful.
2. Crafted Weapons have higher DPS than 3rd Age.
3. Second Age DPS is more than 10% higher than Third Age. The gap in DPS is simply too high to not be reachable by non Raid players and to be reachable to all Raid players. First age's at least seemed rare at 65
4. None of the Raid Content is hard enough to justify having better gear.
5. Raid Play is not that much more difficult than Solo play at the present. Most Raid's I have been in follow a guide someone wrote and behave essentially like a bot. Unless someone makes a mistake out of boredom or one of the players is an idiot the run goes just fine. Raid play just seems harder than Solo because many people have more experience playing Solo then playing in Raids. In Raid's more communication is need than in solo (unless you talk to yourself a lot) ,but your character generally is doing less. In Solo play you are worried about doing all the damage and all of the tanking in a Raid that is not the case your role is instead more focused and limited.
6. While it is true that better rewards causes more people to raid, should that be necessary to the degree of providing unique and superior gear? Shouldn't a raid be enough fun on it's own without having to provide better items that cannot be attained by any other means? I can see how some rewards is necessary to promote numbers, but do they need to be unreachable by any other means? Raiding can't be so bad in everyone's opinion that everyone would choose another option over the raid right?
7. Providing greatly superior raid gear only via raid's means that the item inflation will continue. Each new update attempts to provide content that everyone can complete that provides some rewards that are useful to everyone. In order to do so the content is generally a bit too easy for players with Raid Gear and the contents quest rewards are nearly a match for the previous Raid Gear. As Raid gear is generally better than crafted gear this style of inflation tends to leave issues in the games economy for people leveling up later. The Quest gear is almost as good as the Raid Gear that takes hours to get and only one level or two higher to get. The Crafted gear isn't cheap to make generally. Currently on the server I play on for the levels 60 -65 only 20 Pieces of Armor are for sale on the AH. Of the items 16 are crafted and 4 are World Drop.
My solution to the issue of the Worn Symbol would be 3 part.
1.To make sure Raid Skirmishes continue to provide more Skirmish Marks per hour than solo (They already do)
2. To provide Worn Symbols for sale for 10,000 Skirmish Marks
3. To Provide Worn Symbols for sale from an NPC for 100 Gold.
This will keep earning the Symbol in a Raid as the easiest method and provide a way that anyone could get them.
My solution to the issue of the Worn Symbol would be 3 part.
1.To make sure Raid Skirmishes continue to provide more Skirmish Marks per hour than solo (They already do)
2. To provide Worn Symbols for sale for 10,000 Skirmish Marks
3. To Provide Worn Symbols for sale from an NPC for 100 Gold.
This will keep earning the Symbol in a Raid as the easiest method and provide a way that anyone could get them.
The principle is good, but the prices are excessive. Prior to the current price drop the Symbol for L65 2A was 5 3rd marks and 1005 marks. This suggests that a reasonable price for a Worn Symbol to make a L75 2A should be on the order of 2000 marks and 5 4th marks.
Scaling, the cash price (if a vendor were to have them at all...the Symbols for L65 2As aren't available that way at all), would probably be more like 20G.
I think those prices might be a bit too low. To reach the amounts you recommend while closer to previous pricing would take ~ 2 hours. I think that compared to the current time to get a Symbol that it might be a bit too low. While a Raider would still be able to get it faster, I'm not sure that they would be getting it faster by a large enough amount to use the Symbol to motivate Raid's at all. I want to try to keep some of the motivation for Raid's by making it the easiest way but still achievable if you put time in solo.
My captain was the random addition to another kin's run of Draigoch t2 last night, and we got to phase 3 before confusion set in and we wiped. Up to that point it took about an hour of work on the claws and body. I recommend everyone who is responsible for dps in this fight to have a 2nd age weapon if you want to get it done before you fall asleep. This is especially true for ranged dps for when there is a fire pool by a claw.
I'm changing my 2nd ager priority from captain emblem to great sword because of this.
So I guess there is a case where right now there is a particular use for 2nd age weapons in the end game raid where they aren't needed elsewhere. That being said, many have commented on how easy* Draigoch is, so I don't see why there should be any barrier to those non-raiders who would like to join a run to help out.
*I don't see where they get that idea, but I'm not an experienced raider.
Last edited by dietlbomb; Oct 30 2011 at 01:21 PM.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
Raiders and soloers should have exactly the same time frame when it comes to obtaining the worn symbol.
Only if LIs are strictly raid-oriented, yes radiers should have exclusive access to it or at least 10 times faster than soloers.
LIs are NOT the only gear you get from raid.
There are more incentives to raiders than the worn symbol.
Over and over I see folks ask why raiders are against non-raiders getting the top stuff by other routes amd the answer is often that no one would raid if there was an easier route to the good stuff.
Think about that for a minute.....sees it's saying most folks want to go an "easier" route.....so why not give folks what they want?
Me, I dont mind raiders getting a LITTLE better armor, but want everything else getable by other means...especially anything that would help more folks break into raiding if they wanted to without dedicating their lives to it.
Prices are coming down on Landroval. I saw a symbol for 349g buyout. The market is getting saturated.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
Over and over I see folks ask why raiders are against non-raiders getting the top stuff by other routes amd the answer is often that no one would raid if there was an easier route to the good stuff.
Think about that for a minute.....sees it's saying most folks want to go an "easier" route.....so why not give folks what they want?
Me, I dont mind raiders getting a LITTLE better armor, but want everything else gettable by other means...especially anything that would help more folks break into raiding if they wanted to without dedicating their lives to it.
+Rep for such an intelligent post.
The argument that you use has been used over and over again for years in other games as well. Solo play should have increasing rewards based on diligence that focus on that ability just the same as raiding should keep increasing ones ability to raid. Different paths to different rewards. If people then choose one path over the other by choice, obviously, since it's a recreation, the game is working as intended.
Hanging a pork chop on your neck does not make the dog like you more, it just means he likes pork chops. Enjoying the companionship of the dog however means he might just follow you around anyway; and like you a tad more when offered a pork chop.
It would be valid to complain if the different paths were actually existent, they aren't. The so called solo/casual players didnt choose any path or made a series of different choices that lead them where they are now, they just refused to do end game instances, raids and group content in general.
Before asking to get better rewards, ask Turbine to completely change the structure of the game and invest massively into branching end game content in ways that would suit possible play styles, and where soloers would have their name deservedly for the choices they made. (right now, refusing to do something identifies you with one play style. im a soloer because i refuse to do ..., thats wrong imo)
For the content soloers are completing now, they deserve no better rewards.
It would be valid to complain if the different paths were actually existent, they aren't. The so called solo/casual players didnt choose any path or made a series of different choices that lead them where they are now, they just refused to do end game instances, raids and group content in general.
Before asking to get better rewards, ask Turbine to completely change the structure of the game and invest massively into branching end game content in ways that would suit possible play styles, and where soloers would have their name deservedly for the choices they made. (right now, refusing to do something identifies you with one play style. im a soloer because i refuse to do ..., thats wrong imo)
For the content soloers are completing now, they deserve no better rewards.
Right now, I'm a solo player because I don't enjoy doing high end instances or raids. I'm also Kindred in all but two factions, have capped out almost every virtue, am almost capped out in all three crafts of my profession and have completed most of the book quests. I have several alternates that are also quite advanced in both adventuring and trade. Could you explain how that should lump me in with the players who simply log in a few hours a week and enjoy the least challenging game they can play?
I also participate in one of the more capable Kinships on the server that does high end content, instances and raids on a regular basis. They seem to enjoy the company of my wife and I even though we choose not to be carried through content that we simply no longer enjoy.
There is however a difference in the mindset of the motivated casual player that often puts just as much time and dedication into the game as the end game crowd. We actually welcome the "care bear" two hour a week,hang out in the Shire "Ultra Casual" player. We recognize that all players help support the game financially. Add to that the fact that players that log into the game to have fun create a great player community. We don't throw them the scraps off our table and tell them be happy that we let them play in our world or think ourselves more important than them in the role of the game. We aspire to be Frodo and Bilbo hoping to do great things, simply by falling into an adventure, with what some feel are trivial efforts, not to be Gandalf through min/maxing of gear and traits.
The above stated however, we are also gamers. On some level, we like to feel that going the extra miles, even on a different path, leads to a more rewarding journey; not just more coin to gear up with in the AH. Yes, we can pay you to do what we are unwilling to do to gain that reward, but then again what fun is that really? It would be like saying that all end game rewards are in the Turbine Store, Raids will get you the points far faster, that's the reasoning behind raiding.
Frankly, I don't want or need raid rewards. I want rewards that can only be obtained through a great amount of dedication in my play style geared around that play style. Something that can't be purchased, traded or simply obtained through a quick pass through an area as a general reward.
Right now, I'm a solo player because I don't enjoy doing high end instances or raids. I'm also Kindred in all but two factions, have capped out almost every virtue, am almost capped out in all three crafts of my profession and have completed most of the book quests. I have several alternates that are also quite advanced in both adventuring and trade. Could you explain how that should lump me in with the players who simply log in a few hours a week and enjoy the least challenging game they can play?
I also participate in one of the more capable Kinships on the server that does high end content, instances and raids on a regular basis. They seem to enjoy the company of my wife and I even though we choose not to be carried through content that we simply no longer enjoy.
There is however a difference in the mindset of the motivated casual player that often puts just as much time and dedication into the game as the end game crowd. We actually welcome the "care bear" two hour a week,hang out in the Shire "Ultra Casual" player. We recognize that all players help support the game financially. Add to that the fact that players that log into the game to have fun create a great player community. We don't throw them the scraps off our table and tell them be happy that we let them play in our world or think ourselves more important than them in the role of the game. We aspire to be Frodo and Bilbo hoping to do great things, simply by falling into an adventure, with what some feel are trivial efforts, not to be Gandalf through min/maxing of gear and traits.
The above stated however, we are also gamers. On some level, we like to feel that going the extra miles, even on a different path, leads to a more rewarding journey; not just more coin to gear up with in the AH. Yes, we can pay you to do what we are unwilling to do to gain that reward, but then again what fun is that really? It would be like saying that all end game rewards are in the Turbine Store, Raids will get you the points far faster, that's the reasoning behind raiding.
Frankly, I don't want or need raid rewards. I want rewards that can only be obtained through a great amount of dedication in my play style geared around that play style. Something that can't be purchased, traded or simply obtained through a quick pass through an area as a general reward.
I was thinking of posting again what i wrote above, but decided not to. Dont see what point u are trying to make. Refusing to do something should not identify you with a playstyle, as stated above.
Originally Posted by Zarador
We don't throw them the scraps off our table and tell them be happy that we let them play in our world or think ourselves more important than them in the role of the game.
Investing as little time as casual players invest in this game they should be more then happy with what they get. "Scraps off our table"? Its their choice, they are more then welcome to eat with us. They choose not to.
Right now, I'm a solo player because I don't enjoy doing high end instances or raids. I'm also Kindred in all but two factions, have capped out almost every virtue, am almost capped out in all three crafts of my profession and have completed most of the book quests. I have several alternates that are also quite advanced in both adventuring and trade. Could you explain how that should lump me in with the players who simply log in a few hours a week and enjoy the least challenging game they can play?
I'm a 'raider', I don't enjoy solo quests or grinding mobs. Yet I am kindred with all factions, have capped all but 5 virtues, capped all 3 crafts, completed all book quests and epilogues. I also have several alternates who are quite advanced in both adventuring and trade and I also group and raid. And without any shadow of a doubt a non raider does not deserve anything close to what a raider does in terms of gear and rewards. The level of difficulty, co-operation and dedication to do a raid far out strips anything soloable and no amount of time grinding will equate to a successful raid.
Originally Posted by Zarador
Frankly, I don't want or need raid rewards. I want rewards that can only be obtained through a great amount of dedication in my play style geared around that play style. Something that can't be purchased, traded or simply obtained through a quick pass through an area as a general reward.
Fair enough, but for that to happen raid gear needs to be that much better again as currently there's not much of a gap and in many cases even raiders are forgoing raid loot in favour of the crafted gear.
As for the symbol, going in the skirmish camp. Lets just look at some numbers, currently they drop about one in every 3-5 raid skirmishes which you then have to roll against 11 other people making the approx number of raids for all 12 raiders to acquire a symbol is 35-60. So what solo content or what do you think a reasonable skirmish mark price should be needed to equate to at least (if not more) then 60 raids?? Simple answer is, there is none.
So you're saying, basically, that the money that casual and solo players pay to Turbine to play the game isn't worth as much as the money raiders pay to Turbine to play the game? And because of that, people who don't raid don't deserve to have SA weapons?
So you're saying, basically, that the money that casual and solo players pay to Turbine to play the game isn't worth as much as the money raiders pay to Turbine to play the game? And because of that, people who don't raid don't deserve to have SA weapons?
If you buy membership to a sports team but can't be bothered to go to the games each week they're not going to bring the games to you. It's your fault you missed out no one elses.
So you're saying, basically, that the money that casual and solo players pay to Turbine to play the game isn't worth as much as the money raiders pay to Turbine to play the game? And because of that, people who don't raid don't deserve to have SA weapons?
Basically what im saying is that their money is worth as much. That doesn't change the fact that they dont deserve better rewards for the completed content.
If you want a pay to win game go play something else.
As for the symbol, going in the skirmish camp. Lets just look at some numbers, currently they drop about one in every 3-5 raid skirmishes which you then have to roll against 11 other people making the approx number of raids for all 12 raiders to acquire a symbol is 35-60. So what solo content or what do you think a reasonable skirmish mark price should be needed to equate to at least (if not more) then 60 raids?? Simple answer is, there is none.
Actually, you've given the formula for the skirmish price. A skirmish raid usually nets around +/-400 skirmish marks depending on drops and optional encounters. So worst case scenario is you need 60 skirmraids to get a Worn symbol- that is 24k skirmish marks. You could add in the requirement for some superior fourth marks too, so they would at the very least have to run the sch/lib (or is 3-man content not "groupy" enough for you?). So how about an even 25k skirmish marks + 5 s4m? That seems just as time intensive as raiding for a largely solo player (and they still have to group a bit for the s4m) since they earn marks at a slower pace.
I enjoy raiding, but I completely understand why some people don't. Too many raiders worry too much about other people's stuff and gameplay instead of focusing on their own toons and what they find fun. Stop telling other players what they shouldn't have because they don't play the way you do. Raiders do more to shoot themselves in the foot than any other group of players besides PvMPers.
Basically what im saying is that their money is worth as much. That doesn't change the fact that they dont deserve better rewards for the completed content.
If you want a pay to win game go play something else.
So you consider second age LIs to now be elite gear for raiders only? LIs, note, not the rest of the gear. I'm only talking about the weapons.
In essence, it boils down to - people who don't raid (or don't win symbols) are stuck with trash LIs. People who raid get decent weapons.
That's just plain WRONG. I don't suggest there should be no rewards for raiding, but a decent weapon isn't one of them.
So you're saying, basically, that the money that casual and solo players pay to Turbine to play the game isn't worth as much as the money raiders pay to Turbine to play the game? And because of that, people who don't raid don't deserve to have SA weapons?
Your money is worth the same, certainly. You're paying for access, and what you choose to participate in and not participate in is up to you. It has nothing to do with "deserving" or "not deserving" anything.
The person who graduates college with a 2.3 GPA and an English Lit. degree payed the same tuition as the guy who graduated summa ### laude with three engineering degrees - the latter guy chose to participate in more and, as a result, will presumably receive a larger "reward" as a result (reward in this case being a higher-paying job). (And, lest anyone think that I'm denigrating those w/English Lit. degrees, I have one myself - I'm well aware of how much money one can earn right out of college with such a degree, and it ain't much (use of "ain't" is intentional there, by the way)).
Originally Posted by Sthrax
Actually, you've given the formula for the skirmish price. A skirmish raid usually nets around +/-400 skirmish marks depending on drops and optional encounters. So worst case scenario is you need 60 skirmraids to get a Worn symbol- that is 24k skirmish marks. You could add in the requirement for some superior fourth marks too, so they would at the very least have to run the sch/lib (or is 3-man content not "groupy" enough for you?). So how about an even 25k skirmish marks + 5 s4m? That seems just as time intensive as raiding for a largely solo player (and they still have to group a bit for the s4m) since they earn marks at a slower pace.
I enjoy raiding, but I completely understand why some people don't. Too many raiders worry too much about other people's stuff and gameplay instead of focusing on their own toons and what they find fun. Stop telling other players what they shouldn't have because they don't play the way you do. Raiders do more to shoot themselves in the foot than any other group of players besides PvMPers.
This seems fair enough to me, although I might even suggest removing or reducing the s4m part of the cost. 25k is prohibitive enough, I think.
As it stands, I really don't see this being much of an issue. The Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor will be in the skirmish camps, probably about the same time that 75 First Age LIs appear (which may even be with the next update for all we know). The cost will be low enough that anyone can earn one in a fairly short amount of time. Then, some time after that, an expansion will come out, the level cap will be raised, and we'll all get to dance this dance once again.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
For the content soloers are completing now, they deserve no better rewards.
If these were the Olympic Trials (and I've actually competed in those, many years ago now), I'd agree with you. But it's not. It's a paid entertainment service, like cable TV. Or perhaps an amusement park. If you're really dedicated to raiding in an MMO, nobody but your fellow raiders will be impressed. Most of your real-life friends, family, and co-workers won't care. Prospective employers might actually use that as a disqualifier for hiring you (so it's best if you hide that on any job applications or interviews).
Anyway, if you were setting up a rewards system for cable TV, would you reserve the best rewards only for those who watched tons and tons of The History Channel? Or The Discovery Channel? Perhaps the Science Channel, or an Exercise Channel? After all, those offer programming that's arguably better than all the inane reality shows, sitcoms, and the like. You might actually have to engage a few brain cells, use more skills, and would probably improve yourself mentally or physically. Would you tell the couch potatoes watching football on ESPN that they don't "deserve" any better rewards? (Perhaps you would, but I suspect you'd find yourself looking for a new job... most entertainment services understand it's best not to piss off large numbers of paying customers).
Aiming the game's best rewards at a modest subset of the game's paying players is stupid, so... 2002. They have a much broader base now, and the growth has been (and continues to be) among more casual players. Alienating them with the game's itemization scheme is dumb. Really, really dumb. I thought Turbine had this figured out when they were talking up Comparable Incomparables in 2006, but I guess they didn't. Someone will, though, and it'll cause both weeping and knashing of teeth (from modest numbers of hardcore players) and great rejoicing (from large numbers of casual-to-typical players).
Let the hardcore players and assorted epeeners get to the cheese first. They will anyway. Let everyone else get there later, playing in the ways that they actually enjoy. In the end, the company that figures that out will have more happy customers.
90% of the game is already catering to casual already, why ruin the final 10%.
Since Solo=Easy mode; no gear needs to be improved to aid solo players what so ever!
Raiding requires the best of the best of the absolute best gear...because it requires a team effort and smarts! (That one sort of got me, perhaps elite helmets to protect the smarts?).
Then...I got to thinking and came up with the perfect solution...
Raiders don't want solo players to trivialize their content with better gear; yet they claim that 90% of the game is geared towards (slaps forehead) SOLO! It's perfectly fine however to take on the solo designed content in raid gear, since it would have been easy for Mr. Hardcore to be the Chuck Norris of M.E. Anyway. Then it HIT ME! They do care (sniffles); their so miserable playing in that elite gear doing 90% solo content and steamroll instances that they want to protect us ignorant solo players from such a demise!
Hold on folks, I promised a SOLUTION to the exact problem they put forward to us solo players! First, the inspiration (pun intended) for my solution though. So we could get a taste of difficult content, they designed I.G. (inspired greatness) whereby we become Super Mario's and see the world through the eyes of a strong group! Frankly, I have greatly both appreciated and enjoyed the experience and I'm most appreciative that they added this to the game! Hold On! Here comes the solution!
I.G. II - Imagined GreatnessTM
The Raider exists the instance/raid and still has all the appearance of having a full set of raid gear and the best weapons obtainable in the game. After all, as we solo players have been told, cosmetics are great rewards and knowing what you achieved is it's own reward! Here's the benefit though, the gear degrades to casual solo gear! (Don't worry, entering a non-trivial instance or raid brings it back up to full glory).
Now, they can enjoy the challenge of solo AND raid encounters! It's a Win/Win! I mean think about how ironic it really is anyway.
You enter an instance with some players and obviously, if it's a new tier, no one has new gear...yet.
Eventually, you beat the instance and earn upgrades to be able to continue to beat the instance over and over again, for even better gear to make it even easier.
Every single piece of new content winds up beatable before the rewards for that content are issued.
Yet, solo players are shunned for wanting better weapons since they can already beat the content with the stuff they have on now.
Does it really make sense that doing the minority of content in the previous tier allows you to plow through the majority of content in the next tier with ease?
If rewards are designed to make a player more efficient, then why would that not hold for all play styles?
And hey, my experience goes way back to the days of Everquest when Time Gear was the ultimate gear and I was decked out in the absolute best. Our Guild could setup a group that would easily take on the content designed for several groups in that gear. We steamrolled it back then, just like people do now. We also carried the same attitudes reflected in some of the posts here. Looking back at it all, we were not so elite, just selfish and conceited.
Even If I agree partially with your conclusion (soloers should have access to better gear in the near future) I strongly disagree with your analogy.
Theres a big difference between MMORP/Games/ and TV Cable. The concept of /game/.
Your argument ''I pay x$/month, I should get /y/ gear'' is as stupid as me saying to my amateur soccer league ''I pay x$/year, I should be able to use my hands''.
Or even closer: ''I bought Final Fantasy VII, I want all the materia NAO''. (old school I know).
Yes, better gear for soloers, but not because ''I'm a customer and I want that''.
Theres a big difference between MMORP/Games/ and TV Cable. The concept of /game/.
Yes, there's a game, and that's how they need to deliver great itemization and fun for every player... via the game. The point is that everyone should have their own path to the cheese, playing in the ways that they actually enjoy - not in ways that game developers (or even worse, other players) think they should be playing.
My point is that MMORPGs aren't grand competitions between people of world-class skill, and the rewards should not be set up as if that's what we're doing when we play. They're basically amusement parks, with rides of different sorts that various people enjoy... interactive rides, but still rides. MMOs are deliberately designed so that character skill (and in some cases, equipment) is more important than player skill, and are designed so that most anyone can accomplish 98% of what's available in the game. That does not mean, however, that any given individual is going to find 98% of what's available in the game to be fun, so multiple playstyles should be well supported.
One thing that a high majority of players do find fun is getting great rewards, and funneling that through just one playstyle is stupid. Turbine said so themselves maybe 4 years ago, and they were right. My guess: they simply don't have enough development resources to pull off their original vision, which is too bad. The same-old, same-old "fallback position" is vastly inferior.
Just a friendly reminder, as raiders always seem to forget the very important thing: Legendary Items are NOT raid-only items (i.e. they can be made to fit solo plays, raids, or in between).
I have no idea why raiders would have to disagree with the OP.
That was my point, too, Tenof. It's second age weapons we're talking about - not raid gear. SAs are a basic part of the LI system, and should be available to all players of a level to use them provided they've done the pre-requisite quest.
Unless, of course, SAs are now for the l33t crowd only. Don't buy it. Do think the drop rate should be increased significantly, and do think the symbols should also be available at skirmish vendors.
How does this equate to: i want everything NAO! as a detractor so eloquently put it?
So you consider second age LIs to now be elite gear for raiders only? LIs, note, not the rest of the gear. I'm only talking about the weapons.
Yes, they are the current top tier LIs awarded for completing currently hardest content.
Originally Posted by Chanah
In essence, it boils down to - people who don't raid (or don't win symbols) are stuck with trash LIs. People who raid get decent weapons.
When First age LIs come out, will the second age be trash? Of course not. Third age LIs are decent legendary items. Why do i have a second age LIthen you ask? Because i could get a better one then i had, just like you can get it. You not wanting to is another thing.
Originally Posted by Chanah
That's just plain WRONG. I don't suggest there should be no rewards for raiding, but a decent weapon isn't one of them.
What? Im sorry, but this just sounds plain stupid.
Originally Posted by Zarador
words
Kinda amusing, a bit over the top for me. Nice try though.
Originally Posted by Tenof
Just a friendly reminder, as raiders always seem to forget the very important thing: Legendary Items are NOT raid-only items (i.e. they can be made to fit solo plays, raids, or in between).
I have no idea why raiders would have to disagree with the OP.
You are making an universal claim which would mean first age LIs should be attainable through skirmish camps.
Originally Posted by Tenof
(i.e. they can be made to fit solo plays, raids, or in between)
Every item can be used for solo play, raids or in between. Whats your point?
You are making an universal claim which would mean first age LIs should be attainable through skirmish camps.
When they're introduced, they should be obtainable through the skirmish camps. They certainly *shouldn't* be exclusive to any one play style, e.g. raiding. Any other points on this?
When First age LIs come out, will the second age be trash? Of course not. Third age LIs are decent legendary items. Why do i have a second age LIthen you ask? Because i could get a better one then i had, just like you can get it. You not wanting to is another thing.
We kinda got used to 3rd ages being common, 2nd ages requiring a grind to find, and 1st ages dropping only in raids. I would guess that everyone here expects the 2nd ages to become more widely available in the near future, and they don't want to invest any time into improving their 3rd age items. Why would a casual player dump thousands of skirmish marks into empowerment scrolls for an item that you plan on junking in a couple months?
I know some people want the 2nd age weapons to come with a feeling of accomplishment*, but I haven't felt much accomplishment in doing skirmish after skirmish after skirmish and losing roll after roll after roll. It's a terrible grind with no control given to the player. These skirmishes are easy. I was happy when I won a roll finally, but I didn't earn it. I won it (amidst much grumbling since it was the only symbol that dropped in 8 skirmishes that night).
As a non-raider, I didn't have trouble resigning myself to the fact that I wouldn't get a 1st age weapon from Ost Dunhoth. They were new and special, but not so overwhelmingly better (about 5 more dps) than the 2nd agers that I could get through pugging. Raiders could carry those around proudly without being vastly more overpowered than everyone else. This isn't the case with the current crop of 2nd agers. They drop in easily repeatable content, and they are vastly better than 3rd agers (about 20 dps). It's just that the easily repeatable content is impossible for some players (slow graphics, no voice, grouping shyness, &c.), and it is tedious for others (30 minutes of aoe attacks and then the reward is a lottery ticket).
*you can get 1 of these from the Draigoch HM raid too. That's an accomplishment.
Last edited by dietlbomb; Nov 01 2011 at 01:26 AM.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
Dont worry guys, 2nd ages will come to the skirmish camp with Update5!
This is the usual pattern
-> release content with 3rd ages being the norm and 2nd ages being the top dog (dragon now, random skirmish drop)
-> wait a few months
-> add new content (update 5) with a new raid that will offer 1st ages.
-> 3rd ages become junk, 2nd ages drop from everywhere so anyone can get them, 1st ages only in the latest raid
Dont worry guys, 2nd ages will come to the skirmish camp with Update5!
That is the VERY reason why I am not happy. Why on the earth they shall be suddenly in the skirmish camp (i.e. available to soloers) only because there is better LI? That mentality of devs is simply looking down on the soloers.
Along with the frequency/duration of debuffs/stuns from landscape trash mobs, I am already considering leaving LotRO.
Its the carrot and the stick.
You never had a 2nd age? Cool, upgrade!
You have a 2nd age already? Cool, now you have something else to strive for!
I know its stupid, but this and the relic grind is the only way to prologue end-game. It took me 4 days to get the armor pieces. And another 7 to get to 75 (did all the books, most of the deeds).
So lets say 2 weeks of RoI and all the content I can do, I've done. Most likely my kin wont do the dragon too soon.
No, not cool. Hugely annoying. I had 2nd Age weapons on my RK before RoI came out, then threw them away when the level cap arrived. Having no choice but 3rd Age weapons I know I'm not going to want to keep long-term for months is... that's right: Hugely Annoying. If I switch over to 2nd Age (again), months later, I'd have to spend lots more time on those... only to throw them away once again when Rohan arrives.
They need to quit tinkering around the edges on LIs, push the "reset" button, and set out to make them fun (instead of just serving as a massive timesink). They should work more like skirmish soldiers do, so progress isn't lost. Instead, make them slower to level up, and add new features to them with each expansion (so people have more things to work on). As it is now, I just despair thinking about trying to outfit my max-level characters with decent weapons... again, and again, and again. The time investment on each one is so long between the leveling, the Greater Delving scrolls, the Empowerment scrolls, and the relics that I'll probably never bother with 2nd Ages again (if it continues to work the way it does now).
If I could get my 2nd Ages right out of the gate in an expansion so I could work on that single weapon the rest of the following year, that would be one thing. The loss of LIs at the next expansion would still suck, but it would be more tolerable. It's the fact that I'm stuck with 3rd Age weapons for months before throwing them away in favor of 2nd Ages that's Hugely Annoying. (And no, folks, I'm never going to raid for these. I'd rather have dental surgery. But if they wanted to offer a way to craft them or earn them solo/duo... I'll be perfectly willing to spend large amounts of time to do so).
Actually, you've given the formula for the skirmish price. A skirmish raid usually nets around +/-400 skirmish marks depending on drops and optional encounters. So worst case scenario is you need 60 skirmraids to get a Worn symbol- that is 24k skirmish marks. You could add in the requirement for some superior fourth marks too, so they would at the very least have to run the sch/lib (or is 3-man content not "groupy" enough for you?). So how about an even 25k skirmish marks + 5 s4m? That seems just as time intensive as raiding for a largely solo player (and they still have to group a bit for the s4m) since they earn marks at a slower pace.
I enjoy raiding, but I completely understand why some people don't. Too many raiders worry too much about other people's stuff and gameplay instead of focusing on their own toons and what they find fun. Stop telling other players what they shouldn't have because they don't play the way you do. Raiders do more to shoot themselves in the foot than any other group of players besides PvMPers.
So you just want to equate time? How about difficulty?
The time it takes to get a party together, the fact that raids are far harder with bosses and lieutenants which can 1 hit you, especially skirms with npcs you have to protect as their morale doesn't scale like the enemies morale and dmg, the fact you can only do the raids once a week. The fact the raids have to be done at lvl 75, the fact you are reliant on 11 other people doing their thing as well and there is always only a chance at winning that all important roll.
No, your proposed 'cost' does not come close to what is required for the raider.
For me was worse:
- got a lv 60 2nd age in Moria (3 years ago) started to tinker with it.
- joined a raiding kin, farmed the watcher, got a 60 1st age.
- actually about 5-6, the lottery was bad back then
- Mirkwood went live, ran SG at least 200 times for my new 2nd age 65. Not much to do anyway.
- OD... ok, 1st 65 age now....(but didnt invest even half the time in it, i was fed up)
- RoI here, got a ok-ish 3rd age, wont even bother with it. Put 3 tier 2 relics on it and thats it.
- I know for a fact i wont spend 20-30 greater emp scrolls to upgrade my 2nd age. Im done with this junk LI system.
So you just want to equate time? How about difficulty?
The time it takes to get a party together, the fact that raids are far harder with bosses and lieutenants which can 1 hit you, especially skirms with npcs you have to protect as their morale doesn't scale like the enemies morale and dmg, the fact you can only do the raids once a week. The fact the raids have to be done at lvl 75, the fact you are reliant on 11 other people doing their thing as well and there is always only a chance at winning that all important roll.
No, your proposed 'cost' does not come close to what is required for the raider.
Here is the fundamental problem- there isn't a cost you would find acceptable. You don't want anyone but raiders to have what you have. 25k skirmish marks are about 100 skirmish runs solo and other than some silver you get nothing else. That is about a month of play if you are a regular skirmisher, a lot more if you only play casually. I would much rather do the raid skirmishes for the symbol than endure the tedium of running solo skirmishes over and over again, but everyone's idea of fun is different and if someone puts in that effort, I think they should be able to get a worn symbol. Get over yourself on the difficulty- skirmish raids really aren't that difficult contentwise, especially once you've run them a few times. Getting all the needed people is a pain, yes, but even PUGs fill quickly on BW right now. Time is a far more valuable commodity to most players.
Here is a question for you: Why do you care whether or not someone else has a 75 SA, and how they got it? How does Jane Doe elf having a second age weapon ground out through solo skirmishes invalidate the fun and challenge of the raids you participated in, with presumably kinmates and in-game friends?
Raiders always tell me they find raids fun and challenging, which is why they run them. Sounds good to me, I find them fun and challenging as well. I don't need exclusive loot to validate my gameplay choices. Exclusive loot doesn't contribute on bit to fun and challenging, unless of course you really like having gear others don't and don't want to admit it.
Here is the fundamental problem- there isn't a cost you would find acceptable. You don't want anyone but raiders to have what you have. 25k skirmish marks are about 100 skirmish runs solo and other than some silver you get nothing else. That is about a month of play if you are a regular skirmisher, a lot more if you only play casually. I would much rather do the raid skirmishes for the symbol than endure the tedium of running solo skirmishes over and over again, but everyone's idea of fun is different and if someone puts in that effort, I think they should be able to get a worn symbol. Get over yourself on the difficulty- skirmish raids really aren't that difficult contentwise, especially once you've run them a few times. Getting all the needed people is a pain, yes, but even PUGs fill quickly on BW right now. Time is a far more valuable commodity to most players.
Here is a question for you: Why do you care whether or not someone else has a 75 SA, and how they got it? How does Jane Doe elf having a second age weapon ground out through solo skirmishes invalidate the fun and challenge of the raids you participated in, with presumably kinmates and in-game friends?
Raiders always tell me they find raids fun and challenging, which is why they run them. Sounds good to me, I find them fun and challenging as well. I don't need exclusive loot to validate my gameplay choices. Exclusive loot doesn't contribute on bit to fun and challenging, unless of course you really like having gear others don't and don't want to admit it.
QFT. I'd do a +rep, but I need to spread some around first.
I've been making the same fundamental point for some time and "pro-raid" faction generally ducks and weaves away from owning up to their own obvious attitude. Many of them aren't in it for "fun", they're in it for bragging rights. They want exclusive goodies in order to be able to claim to be "better" than other players. It's really a pity that Turbine spends so much time and effort feeding a few egos instead of creating a level playing field that provides appropriate weapons (and gear) for a variety of play styles.
Completely agree, for the same reason i gave away my lvl 65 first age i got in OD.
Agreed too.
Why they make in some cases (like guardian belt for overpower play) level 65 SA LI can be a lot better than level 75 TA LI, I have no idea.
Why bother working on LIs which don't really grow with us...
Actually, you've given the formula for the skirmish price. A skirmish raid usually nets around +/-400 skirmish marks depending on drops and optional encounters. So worst case scenario is you need 60 skirmraids to get a Worn symbol- that is 24k skirmish marks. You could add in the requirement for some superior fourth marks too, so they would at the very least have to run the sch/lib (or is 3-man content not "groupy" enough for you?). So how about an even 25k skirmish marks + 5 s4m? That seems just as time intensive as raiding for a largely solo player (and they still have to group a bit for the s4m) since they earn marks at a slower pace.
....
60 skirmishes to get a worn symbol, then craft and ID and work it up to level 30, only to have a roughty 10% chance of the LI being worth a damn (becasue as a captain I need at least 4 majors)? No thank you. That's a worse grind than raiding. Other than for primary DPS players, because DPS players need DPS before anything else, that is a horrible trade off.
Originally Posted by Khafar
No, not cool. Hugely annoying. I had 2nd Age weapons on my RK before RoI came out, then threw them away when the level cap arrived. Having no choice but 3rd Age weapons I know I'm not going to want to keep long-term for months is... that's right: Hugely Annoying. If I switch over to 2nd Age (again), months later, I'd have to spend lots more time on those... only to throw them away once again when Rohan arrives.
They need to quit tinkering around the edges on LIs, push the "reset" button, and set out to make them fun (instead of just serving as a massive timesink). They should work more like skirmish soldiers do, so progress isn't lost. Instead, make them slower to level up, and add new features to them with each expansion (so people have more things to work on). As it is now, I just despair thinking about trying to outfit my max-level characters with decent weapons... again, and again, and again. The time investment on each one is so long between the leveling, the Greater Delving scrolls, the Empowerment scrolls, and the relics that I'll probably never bother with 2nd Ages again (if it continues to work the way it does now).
If I could get my 2nd Ages right out of the gate in an expansion so I could work on that single weapon the rest of the following year, that would be one thing. The loss of LIs at the next expansion would still suck, but it would be more tolerable. It's the fact that I'm stuck with 3rd Age weapons for months before throwing them away in favor of 2nd Ages that's Hugely Annoying. (And no, folks, I'm never going to raid for these. I'd rather have dental surgery. But if they wanted to offer a way to craft them or earn them solo/duo... I'll be perfectly willing to spend large amounts of time to do so).
Khafar
For the record, I agree with your complaints about the LI system. They should make the LI's grow with you, like the marketing people said they would. Otherwise, they should remove the grind from the LI system.
But how does adding a new grind, in having us grind ridiculous numbers of skirmish marks for worn symbols, make this better? Rather than asking for a skirmish mark grind for a second age, which again, may not turn out well at level 30, I'd rather have random landscape drops like we had in Moria, and just leave it up to luck.
Originally Posted by Sthrax
Here is the fundamental problem- there isn't a cost you would find acceptable. You don't want anyone but raiders to have what you have. 25k skirmish marks are about 100 skirmish runs solo and other than some silver you get nothing else. That is about a month of play if you are a regular skirmisher, a lot more if you only play casually. I would much rather do the raid skirmishes for the symbol than endure the tedium of running solo skirmishes over and over again, but everyone's idea of fun is different and if someone puts in that effort, I think they should be able to get a worn symbol. Get over yourself on the difficulty- skirmish raids really aren't that difficult contentwise, especially once you've run them a few times. Getting all the needed people is a pain, yes, but even PUGs fill quickly on BW right now. Time is a far more valuable commodity to most players.
Here is a question for you: Why do you care whether or not someone else has a 75 SA, and how they got it? How does Jane Doe elf having a second age weapon ground out through solo skirmishes invalidate the fun and challenge of the raids you participated in, with presumably kinmates and in-game friends?
Raiders always tell me they find raids fun and challenging, which is why they run them. Sounds good to me, I find them fun and challenging as well. I don't need exclusive loot to validate my gameplay choices. Exclusive loot doesn't contribute on bit to fun and challenging, unless of course you really like having gear others don't and don't want to admit it.
100 solo skirmish runs is a little exaggerated. Before RoI was was running solo tier 2 21st hall, Deep Way, and Way of Smiths for around 400 to 600 skirmish marks each. I haven't tried it since RoI becasue I'm already running so many 12-man skirmishes, but it should drop just as many marks.
I won't speak for any other raiders, but for myself, I don't enjoy raiding. I do find them challenging. I do enjoy beating raids. Once I've beaten content a couple of dozen times, it looses it's appeal, and that goes for any content. After that, only repetition for rewards gets be coming back. But the whole process, from grinding LI's, grinding crafts to make what gear I can, grinding money to buy what gear I can't craft, etc, it's all an obscene wast of time. That's why I only have one raiding toon. I just don't have the time to do much of anything else in game.
And that's why this argument boggles my mind. People are asking for another mind-numbing grind to get these 2nd ages. Why would anyone ask for more grind for just another LI that will be obsolete in 9 months to a year?
If I had my way, LI's of any kind would be much more rare, but players would be able to pick any legacy without restriction at the level 10-30 reforges and the level 40-70 reforges would improve any chosen legacy to max tier. That way, second and first age LI drops could be made exceptionally rare and special. They could drop from tough solo content, like tier 3 solo skirmishes, as well as from raid content.
60 skirmishes to get a worn symbol, then craft and ID and work it up to level 30, only to have a roughty 10% chance of the LI being worth a damn (becasue as a captain I need at least 4 majors)? No thank you. That's a worse grind than raiding. Other than for primary DPS players, because DPS players need DPS before anything else, that is a horrible trade off.
That's roughly as bad as the grind is now, but it doesn't seem like a grind because you always have a chance to win a symbol. For example, I have completed 69 skirmish raids now and I have won 1 symbol. For the exact reason you give, I gave it to my champ.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
100 solo skirmish runs is a little exaggerated. Before RoI was was running solo tier 2 21st hall, Deep Way, and Way of Smiths for around 400 to 600 skirmish marks each. I haven't tried it since RoI becasue I'm already running so many 12-man skirmishes, but it should drop just as many marks.
Rift, solo, level 75, T1 drops 295 marks, exclusive of any barter items. Counting in typical drops of items that are only good for bartering to marks, call it around 350 marks per run.
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Re: Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor in skirmish camp
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