Thread: Post ROI Guardian Check-In

Originally Posted by CrusaderOfMetal

I miss the absorb damage and reactive healing equipment scaled to lv 75
I'm not able any more do the entire Library (or School, the burning books one) in only three pulls (excluding bosses) and that makes me - and my shing shing dwarf friend - sad. For me, it seems that DPS is waaaaaaaaay out of control, much higher relatively than it was on lv 65.

I kept my level 65 mitigation / healing gear (leggings, gauntlets, helm, chest, shield) and use it for such occassions.

My buddies (Minstrel, Champ) and I (Guardian) do School (set at 75) by;
1. I round up the the entire ground level (excluding bosses) and build aggro as I am rounding up with shield skills.
2. I meet my buddies at the front entrance where I get the Champ to start off with a Horn stun.
3. I follow up with Guadian's Pledge and Shield-wall on the Minstrel.
... From there on it's all AoE madness and the Minstrel healing me like a mofo.
4. For the books I round up all the guys and kite them while my buddies save the books.
5. Once the books are saved we meet at the front entrance and repeat steps #2 and #3.

For Library we;
1. Shield-wall on Minstrel.
2. I round up everything up until the terrace with the crows.
3. Champ starts off with stun, and I pop Guardian's Pledge.
4. AoE madness
5. The next pull involves rounding up everthing up until the first mini-boss and repeat steps #3 & #4. Then kill mini-boss.
6. Repeat for next mini-boss.
7. For the final boss I start off by rounding up all of the crows (which heal me full health with my gear) and then activate the boss.
8. And while I can solo this boss with the crows healing me.. for giggles the Champ starts off with Stun, I pop Guardian's Pledge, and the Mini pops Fellowships Heart.

At any rate, Library and School are still a joke if you have kept your mitigation and healing gear.

Originally Posted by Aerundael

#1 Guards do not have more threat than ever. The Yellow trait set is now generating real threat, making it the only stance useable in high end instances. If you don't trait yellow, you won't hold aggro over a massively dpsing champ or hunter.

#2 Guards are missing their attacks far more than pre-ROI, particularly in the pre-65 levels, where the devs removed the passive accuracy skills (reducing miss rate) and forgot to compensate for them, making leveling a guard slower.

Not harder, not impossible, just far slower.

I've always argued that the Yellow trait line was fail for guards pre-RoI, and now doing RoI it is still fail.

1. Get either a 75 3rd or 2nd Age.
2. Max out Shield-Use Rank, Skill Threat Up, DPS on your weapon.
3. Slot Threatening Presence, Selfless Defence, and get at least 5 blues total for Litany Master.

With this build Litany Master will stack Threat-Over-Time debuffs each time you crit with Sweeping Cut (double AoE), Vexing Blow, Shield Swipe, Shield Bash and Shield Smash. Get 2-3 ToT debuffs on your target and he is not coming off of you.

Another key attribute that will help with aggro which ties itself directly to Litany Master is your Critical Chance rating. The higher your critical chance rating the more often you will crit on your attacks which stack the ToT debuff. Unbuffed, anything 9-11% will help with your crits, but where you will really start to notice a difference is what I call the butter zone of 11-13%, unbuffed. Add on cappy buffs and you're laughing with your crits. And since your crit is going to be this high it also makes perfectly logical sense to slot To The King for Fellowship Manauvers, since every time you crit on TtT starts a FM.

Have a problem with a Glass Cannon (Champs with 16-20k melee offence, or other high dps class builds)? Put Selfless Defence on him, every time he gets hit some of his threat gets transferred to you.

And remember that Whirling Retaliation transfers group threat to you. The larger your fellowship the more threat gets transferred to you, allowing you to hold much better aggro.

If you think for a split second that your Guard can hold aggro against mine in a fellowship because your yellow traited then you are dreaming. Plus, the Yellow trait line sucks for mob aggro.

Originally Posted by Evendale

Wait, why do people not like the raid set? It's almost perfect in my mind. Could do with a bit more inc healing/tact mit, but other than that the stats are exactly what I would want for tanking (pity I never need to, but you know...).

Let's also mention that the 5-set bonus gives a huge upgrade to Warrior's Fortitude morale heal. Instead of your WF giving you approximately a 1k morale heal it will now give you a 3k morale heal (if you also trait the +25% WF legacy).

And in case some of you don't know how to take full advantage of WF, make sure to use it when you are not close-to or at max morale because then you are wasting it since the max morale increase provided by WF is much smaller than the morale heal provided by it. Thus you'll want to save it for either when you are low on morale or at least 3k below your maximum.

+Holding threat got much easier
+We got so much vitality on our gear that we finally can go for mitigations on our relics
+The new skill improvements are fun in the moors
+Awesome set-bonus

-OP tanking got harder (which is good actually)
-I lost 500 agility...

Originally Posted by Mysterion

Have you tried using tactical mitigation virtues and items instead of physical?

I am trying that at the moment, have 45%ish tactical mit and 55%ish physical mit. Will try to add more tactical mit, thanks.

Positive Vibrations:

My Stats:
12k morale
1400 vit
900 might
25% incomming healing
24% block (with guardians ward up)
19% parry (with guardians ward up)
5% evade
70% common damage mitigation (this is the cap)
54,5% tactical mitigation

Secondage lvl 75 belt with threat up legacy maxxed.
Shield smash that does 1,124 damage unbuffed.
My highest shield smash hit so far is 5,4k with a captain buff, 3,6k without any buff on a training dummy in galtrev.
(Ill upload a screenie later with the actual stats)

-That Wardens do way more threat is a myth, it is only true if you havent got threat up legacy on a lvl 75 secondage belt. With my belt i dont lose agro ever, except from really great wardens or great guardians with a lvl 75 belt too.

-That Guardians have less defence is a myth too, with Catch a breath traited i can go lib/school with only dps classes.

Tanking is now the most enjoyable thing for guardians in the game, i can be the only tank in skirmish raids and keep 7-10 mobs locked on me.



Negative:

-4 Legendary Items needed for both solo and tanking role........ (this is why i only do fellowship content and only have a tanking build, no 2hander even)
4 legendary items is terrible, the amount of good runes required is even more horrifying, let alone the tier update scrolls x 6 (for every legacy) x4 (for every item), plus twice the scroll of delvings...

-Block stance is now enjoyable for kiting, but in the moors it still sucks.... It's not relyable like all our shield n board skills in ettens, the only thing that you can do is slow a raid when is chasing you so you can sprint.... I mean who wil target a 15k high mitigation guardian with all other classes around?

Originally Posted by Altaril

[COLOR="#FFD700"]-That Wardens do way more threat is a myth, it is only true if you havent got threat up legacy on a lvl 75 secondage belt. With my belt i dont lose agro ever, except from really great wardens or great guardians with a lvl 75 belt too.

Are you waiving your epeen, or do you truly not see the problem with that statement?

In case it's the latter... not every guardian has a 2nd age 75 belt with the appropriate legacy, but every warden is still a warden... as you even said, a warden with equal gear will out-threat you -- if you got the item, why do you think they won't? If the requirement for a guardian to out-threat a warden were a 1st age belt, would you still feel as good about yourself?

I've got a couple of good skirmish jewel drops and now, better than ever, i'm taking hits like a rock. I can tank pretty much any raid mob pool all by myself and stay fine for the next one. As soon as I hit 75, I was barely tanking GB Maze. The gear you have make a huge difference while tanking. If you're still using your 65 gear and just a few jewels gained from questing and such, you won't feel the real difference in tanking potential from 65 to 75.
I'm still looking for better jewels and the Dragoich shoulders. I know I'll be even sturdier than I am now. But to build a decent character takes time and effort.

Originally Posted by MorliX

It seems that most of the expectations for RoI impact on guards have been largely confirmed with some stipulations and minor adjustments in scope. Nothing yet convinces me the class is "worth bothering with" currently - I hope that is not a permanent prognosis.

Have you seen the outpouring of angst about squishiness and inferiority to guards in the Warden forums? Seen a surge of Champs who want to tank? Seems to me like the place of Guardians as main tanks is actually looking quite solid right now. We had a great Warden and a great Guard in a 6 man GB kin run last night, and they quickly decided to go with the Guard as the tank. Rather than focus so much on theoretical issues, perhaps just play the game and see how it goes. Guards are VERY much in demand for all group content far as I can see.

As a champ that has been doing a good amount of tanking. I will say that easily guards are far easier tanks to run with. They have easier time gaining initial threat. Champs have amazing time holding threat once they get it, but getting it is hard. It requires the group to pay attention and let the champ gain aggro in the beginning. To maintain aggro we have to get attacked and if somebody pulls a mob off us we have one challenge skill on a relatively long cooldown. Rising Ire is great for keeping ontop of the aggro table and exchange of blades generates awesome threat but until we get there things can go bad quickly. I am a champ and will never run a PUG with champ tank because I don't trust other players to sit back and do nothing for a few seconds to let the champ establish threat. Guards are the easiest tank to run with by far. I have to say though that from personal experience I think that Wardens are now the squishiest tank. I don't think enemy finesse was figured into tank for them as much. Which sucks for them.

Originally Posted by Opticals

Are you waiving your epeen, or do you truly not see the problem with that statement?

In case it's the latter... not every guardian has a 2nd age 75 belt with the appropriate legacy, but every warden is still a warden... as you even said, a warden with equal gear will out-threat you -- if you got the item, why do you think they won't? If the requirement for a guardian to out-threat a warden were a 1st age belt, would you still feel as good about yourself?

A healing minstrel wil do more healing with a good legendary item, a dps class wil do more dps, and a guardian does more threat and shield damage.
I dont see how you feel you are in a bad position not being able to hold threat from a warden unless you have a secondage belt, since you can hold threat over anything else pretty easy. And as soon as you do the dragon raid, or the skirmish raids you have a good chance of getting a worn symbol for the secondager.
Legendary items are always requirements for the class to be effective. To have the same threat as a warden is impossible for dev's to achieve, but its pretty damn close iam just saying.
Perhaps the epeen you saw in my posts is the critism i want to give to people who say guardians are worse off then wardens while tanking, i dont think so i think they are closer then ever in capacity!

Originally Posted by Altaril

-That Wardens do way more threat is a myth, it is only true if you havent got threat up legacy on a lvl 75 secondage belt. With my belt i dont lose agro ever, except from really great wardens or great guardians with a lvl 75 belt too

Someone clearly hasn't been in the same group as a good warden who wanted aggro recently.

Aggression is a spammable (four length gambit) that transfers a % (at least it certainly seems to be a %; if not then its just a huuge chunk of threat) of threat from each player in the Warden's group. If they want threat, they will get it. Perhaps not immediately, but it shouldn't take too long (of course in a Raid, a Warden does need high threat generating classes in their group to generate huge threat).


And, you really don't need to trait CaB to do school/lib with no healers. It can be done in OP with no healers just as easily (maybe even more easily, certainly a lot faster).



Also, a post that starts just by listing your stats already smells of e-peenage to me, even if it wasn't intended that way.

Originally Posted by Evendale

Someone clearly hasn't been in the same group as a good warden who wanted aggro recently.

Aggression is a spammable (four length gambit) that transfers a % (at least it certainly seems to be a %; if not then its just a huuge chunk of threat) of threat from each player in the Warden's group. If they want threat, they will get it. Perhaps not immediately, but it shouldn't take too long (of course in a Raid, a Warden does need high threat generating classes in their group to generate huge threat).


And, you really don't need to trait CaB to do school/lib with no healers. It can be done in OP with no healers just as easily (maybe even more easily, certainly a lot faster).



Also, a post that starts just by listing your stats already smells of e-peenage to me, even if it wasn't intended that way.

So much for trying to cheer people up saying guardians are totally fine tanking. I tought it was a problem with gear not being apropriate, thats the reasons i posted stats. If i want epeen ill go ask my mom if iam handsome.

If this whole thread has been reduced to a Warden vs Guardian Agro challenge, then just trait selfless defence and stick it on the warden.
I do think that is missing the point of the OP.
I Dont see any problem in 2 tanking classes to be far ahead of other classes in threat generation. I found it working togheter with a Warden is quite enjoyable and so is with another guardian. Agro is easy.

Edit: i also think claiming things without actual back-up info is running like a blind fool.

Maybe I am too busy seeing how we praise our kin Guardians by being so reliable and sturdy, to find how Guardians are now discarded in favour of Champions.

Of course you can find aberrant cases in global channel with people asking for "minstrel or captain" to do a school/library (I would never go to that PUG), or asking for "tanking Champion or Guardian" (where is warden).

Again how is Champion better? Guardian has more morale, receives less damage, and generates more agro, all of this at the expense of less DPS (or at least it is supposed so, we lack parses to compare).

Since current "end game" does not require tank to do much DPS, I would always prefer a more reliable tank than scraping a couple minutes for a run. The supposed advantage of champion tanking is easily lost to AFK people or waiting for healing.

This is true as long as new instances are not DPS races. If new instances are DPS races, then we will again see people looking for new ways to bend the system (fervour champion ping pong for example).

Originally Posted by Altaril

So much for trying to cheer people up saying guardians are totally fine tanking

Trying to cheer people up on the forums is hard. Mixing true claims with false ones and listing off your personal stats doesn't aid your cause.

Originally Posted by MordecaiKell

Guardian has more morale

check

Originally Posted by MordecaiKell

receives less damage

well, yes, but not by a great deal, and champions have other means to make up for this (read: self heals/bubbles)

Originally Posted by MordecaiKell

and generates more agro

no. perhaps in the medium term a guard might get ahead, but short term champs can get a big dose of intial aggro by starting with some burst damage, and in the long term rising ire allows them to generate a near infinite threat lead.

Originally Posted by MordecaiKell

all of this at the expense of less DPS

check

Originally Posted by MordecaiKell

Since current "end game" does not require tank to do much DPS

well, yes, but current "end game" (other than Draigoch) favors tanks that do a lot of DPS since survivability is barely an issue for heavys

no-one is abandoning guards for champs but that was never a concern of mine (I doubt my kin would abandon my Guardian regardless of what happens), and has nothing to do with whether I'm happy with the changes or not. i just care about whether or not the classes are properly (fairly) balanced.

As a long time guardian, I started reading this post and question whether some guards want to be champs?

In my opinion, a guardian, or any 'tank' in general, should have a shield. OP is a secondary stance, not a tanking stance. I don't lament the loss of OP effectiveness as it was a bit ridiculous. Save the 2-hander for when an enemy routs and shows you their back.

Now, to make my guard more effective, I'll focus on making my sheild skills do more damage. There are many legacies to pump up shield damage that can be used. Our belts are geared towards adding shield damage, there are many legacies for shields: bash dmg, shield dmg, shield smash dmg.

Oh, and power problems are partially a skills management issue. Reading the dev diary, they don't reward players who are spam clicking skills for DPS. Instead, you are supposed to pick your moments. So things appear to be working as intended.

I for one look forward to a return of the sheild in prominence, as it's more a symbol of a guardian than anything else.

Well, we know that the RoI changes at least appeal to SOME of the anti-OP stance internal sect...for now - will be interesting to hear if this is still the case when actual raid content emerges and after champs will by then be at full strength and mentally encouraged to explore their potentials in more aggressive fashion.

Originally Posted by Gothgrimm

Now, to make my guard more effective, I'll focus on making my sheild skills do more damage. There are many legacies to pump up shield damage that can be used. Our belts are geared towards adding shield damage, there are many legacies for shields: bash dmg, shield dmg, shield smash dmg.

I for one look forward to a return of the sheild in prominence, as it's more a symbol of a guardian than anything else.

Originally Posted by Evendale

Aggression is a spammable (four length gambit) that transfers a % (at least it certainly seems to be a %; if not then its just a huuge chunk of threat) of threat from each player in the Warden's group. If they want threat, they will get it. Perhaps not immediately, but it shouldn't take too long (of course in a Raid, a Warden does need high threat generating classes in their group to generate huge threat).

Before RoI I used to be what I called a Parry Guardian in Threat Stance. I played my Guardian much like a Warden with the added bonus of being able to pull many more fellowship manauvers than a Burglar. In RoI I still play much the same way but I also chose to embrace the direction that Turbine set out for us. If you're not investing in and using your Shield skills then you are neglecting the largest part of the update that Turbine made for the Guardian class.

Here are some steps that will hopefully help other Guardians in establishing and holding aggro.

First off, earlier I mentioned that I played my Guardian a bit like a Warden. That is, I use aggro leeches (Whirling Retaliation) and stackable Threat-Over-Times (Litany Master). On top of that I said that I have embraced Turbine's changes to the Guardian class and have thus invested heavily in my shield legacies (Shield-Use Rank, Skill Threat Up, Shield Damage, Shield-Smash).

In order for Whirling Retaliation to have any worthwhile effect you must be in the same fellowship group as your dps classes, namely the Champ(s). If the Warden gets your spot with the dps classes then you're going to have to work your butt off much harder.

Second, throw Selfless Defence on the secondary tank or class that you find is generating the most aggro next to you, preferably on a class that can also Block and/or Parry so that along with transferring aggro to you will also trigger your reactives.

Third, with Turbine's emphasis on Shield skills the effect of Threatening Presence is much larger than it was before, equip it.

Fourth, again playing a bit like a Warden.. equip enough blue traits so that you can equip Litany Master and get at least a 10% Critical Chance unbuffed. With Litany Master, every time you crit with Sweeping Cut (2xAoE), Vexing Blow, Shield Swipe (2xSingle), Shield Bash and Shield Smash you stack a Threat-Over-Time on your targets that they crit on. Get 2-3 ToT's on your target and it is going to become very difficult for someone to pull that target off of you. Also don't forget Litany of Defiance, which is an AoE taunt also capable of applying the ToT debuff on your targets.

Lastly, with all of this emphasis on Shield skills we would be foolish to turn a blind eye on the long forgotten (at least for me it was) Shield-Smash skill. Unbuffed and not even close to having my shield skill legacies maxed out I am already critting for 2-2.5k damage. Get that kind of a hit on a target (which if you have Litany Master also applies a stackable ToT) and he is yours. Max out your legacies or get them to a high enough level and you will expect to see Shield-Smash numbers in the range of 3-5k easy on a crit.

However, a lot of how I play my Guardian hinges on Critical Chance. Every time I crit I stack a ToT, and every time I crit I do more damage which, especially when coming from my shield equals much, much more threat. I like to call my crit butter zone as 12% unbuffed, with 13% or higher began my goal. For me crits play such a large part for my threat.

I have reach a state where I am finally comfortable enough to permanently drop Threat Stance, and am currently running Defensive Stance full-time.

For Class Traits and Legendaries I run:

[ Class ]
- Selfess Defence: to help with aggro against hard hitting champs and other Guardians and Wardens
- Catch a Breadth: for power restore
- Threatening Presence: a must have with the update
- Shield of Fire: helps with raids in which there are a large number of targets to aggro
- Litany of Challenge: same as above
- Harasser: when coupled with Litany Master helps with stackable ToT and AoE dps
- Grim Challenge: More emergency clutch than anything, you could just-as-well slot Quick of Foot.

[ Legendary ]
- Litany Master: stackable Threat-Over-Time
- Shield-Smash: with Turbine's emphasis on Shield skills and its huge crits, another must have
- To The King: since Litany Master requires a decent crit chance rating it makes sense to use TtK since it also relies on crit

For Sword (hit chance) legacies I run:
* max dps out
- (Major) Whirling Retaliation: for AoE dps
- (Major) Sweeping Cut: for AoE dps
- (Major) Guardian AoE Melee Targets: for AoE dps
* if I have a 4th major I slot Vexing Blow for more AoE dps
- (Minor) Targeted Skills Melee Range: this got a huge buff in RoI and helps a lot with AoE
- Stamp Cooldown: Optional, pick what you want

For Shield legacies I run:
* max Shield Use Rank, or at least get rank 5 or 6
- (Major) Shield Damage: increase my shield damage
- (Major) Threat Generation Up: a must have
- (Major) Catch a Breath Cooldown: for power
- (Minor) Shield Wall Range: optional, I like it
- (Minor) Warrior's Heart/Fortitude Morale Heal: once you get your 5-set bonus and +25% legacy your WF will heal you for 3k morale
- (Minor) Sheild-Smash Damage: increase my shield damge

Originally Posted by thatabguy

Here are some steps that will hopefully help other Guardians in establishing and holding aggro.

What an incredibly patronizing post. Believe me I know what our skills do, and what has changed.

I never said it was hard to hold aggro. Thanks to a large bump up in "taunt-type" threat, it's incredibly easy to hold aggro now over anything other than a Warden who knows what they're doing.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

FSecond, throw Selfless Defence on the secondary tank or class that you find is generating the most aggro next to you, preferably on a class that can also Block and/or Parry so that along with transferring aggro to you will also trigger your reactives.

If you throw selfless defence on a secondary tank ... that would be mind bogglingly foolish. Surely some communication with the secondary tank would always be preferred.

O.o

Wuh happa to dis thread?



Btw...as for build issues...post RoI anyway, 196 agil is apparently the new 900 :/


Edit:

Targeted skill melee range does not alter AoE attack range, unless that has been changed with RoI.

Originally Posted by MorliX

Targeted skill melee range does not alter AoE attack range, unless that has been changed with RoI.

You'll be excited to learn that it does. I've been spamming Forges in Galtev nonstop to try and get a 3rd Age 1H Sword (albeit unsuccessfully) and I've gotten so impatient that I've resorted to doing the instance in two pulls so that I can kill them quicker with AoE's.

By using a kiting technique where I stay just in range to attack them with my sword I can hit them but they cannot hit me. This is using Guardian's Ward, Sweeping Cut, Vexing Blow and Whirling Retaliation.

At first kiting may sound slower, but as I said I am staying just within range of my melee skills. Note though that your shield does not benefit from targeted skills melee range, only your sword skills do.

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

Because responding to what you feel is ungrateful behaviour with personal attacks without really giving him the benefit of the doubt does you a lot of good.

Also, /facepalm at trashing Evendale after you read one of his posts.

Last I check people don't trash other people for trying to be helpful. Evendale calling me incredibly patronizing and mind boggindly foolish comes across as insults to me. I just want to help people on the forums, not get trash talked.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

calling me ... mind boggindly foolish comes across as insults to me.

I was just reusing a word you used in your own post (with a few extra adjectives I admit ). It pretty obviously wasn't directed at you, but at the action you suggested. I didn't think it would come across quite so harsh sorry.


But it is patronizing to look at people's statements in this thread and take that to mean some of us need a full run down of how to play a Guardian. If you'd made your post in a new thread I'm sure no-one would have taken any offense.


Other things:
Taunt-type threat = as opposed to threat from damage. That seems to include leeches or anything else. Not sure what else to call it.

Why do I need to learn to read?

My Stats:
1) mylotro is often inaccurate and at best shows you one of the person's builds and the stats may or may not include buffs so its not a very poor indicator of someone's build intentions
2) stacking vit is more about stacking tactical defense than morale. min/maxing that one stat (tact def) is the most important part of any tanking build atm imo
3) my toon pretty much has what I got when I hit 75 other than the raid set (minus helm), and some crafted jewellery. I've mostly been writing plugins instead of playing since the first week after RoI


But yea I obviously know nothing about tanking and need to l2p. I guess I'll go read that l2p guide again.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

Last I check people don't trash other people for trying to be helpful. Evendale calling me incredibly patronizing and mind boggindly foolish comes across as insults to me. I just want to help people on the forums, not get trash talked.

You haven't made a very good impression if you want to help and thirteen posts in you start slinging anger because of a couple words.

And if you think what Evendale said was trashing... Geeze, just ease off the pedal a bit. We're all people and we're all just talking. Let's not make it something it isn't, eh? It's the internet, we all should know by now we have to have an extra thick layer and give an extra bit of benefit of the doubt IF ONLY because text lacks emphasis, emotion, inflection and intention way more than speech does.

Now, back to the discussing. I was enjoying catching up on Guardians thinking Champs are going to be the incurable virus to class balance.

Here is a link to what I would call balanced.
Yes it is the full PvP set, with the 2 PvP rings, but it is by far the most balanced thing we can get.
http://my.lotro.com/home/character/1...92887796400624
I am traited for OP stance, so in general my mits go a bit higher.
I still have a few things I'm looking at that I may swap around, but this is close to what I am shooting for.

Guards I'm finding in PvE land are just fine, but you need to get the gear to be there.
Some of the changes are sweet, some I'm still not sure about, and there are things that need to be tweaked or improved, but over all its not as bad as my beta thoughts were.

With that said a small apology to the community and to Graal, he did say we were ok, and I do believe we are ok.

But we do have a few issues that I do hope will get looked at very hard, and I do hope that guardians thoughts will be considered by the devs.
We the guardians of the community play this class day in and day out, and I would hope we are heard for real going forward.

Dialog is a good thing, I think.

Ahem. I'm watching you... all of you!

Originally Posted by thatabguy

You'll be excited to learn that it does.

This would be quite a news really, as the AOE range was already 5.2m, compared to the pale 2.5m from single targets attack. With the legacy adding 2.3m (on a 65 weapon), this would make our AOE skills hitting farther than challenge or litany of defiance (7m). I can't wait to check that in-game.

Originally Posted by AS1476

Here is a link to what I would call balanced.
Yes it is the full PvP set, with the 2 PvP rings, but it is by far the most balanced thing we can get.

Nice setup, and one I would like to have. But me, rank 9 in PvP ? Not going to happen. I would rather reroll and drop tanking altogether than grind ranks in PvP. I keep my fingers crossed for more options in december when the instances are released, because right now I don't like what we are offered.

I appreciate your summary and the willingness to take time trying to help others. +rep

Originally Posted by thatabguy

Before RoI I used to be what I called a Parry Guardian in Threat Stance. I played my Guardian much like a Warden with the added bonus of being able to pull many more fellowship manauvers than a Burglar. In RoI I still play much the same way but I also chose to embrace the direction that Turbine set out for us. If you're not investing in and using your Shield skills then you are neglecting the largest part of the update that Turbine made for the Guardian class.

Here are some steps that will hopefully help other Guardians in establishing and holding aggro.

First off, earlier I mentioned that I played my Guardian a bit like a Warden. That is, I use aggro leeches (Whirling Retaliation) and stackable Threat-Over-Times (Litany Master). On top of that I said that I have embraced Turbine's changes to the Guardian class and have thus invested heavily in my shield legacies (Shield-Use Rank, Skill Threat Up, Shield Damage, Shield-Smash).

In order for Whirling Retaliation to have any worthwhile effect you must be in the same fellowship group as your dps classes, namely the Champ(s). If the Warden gets your spot with the dps classes then you're going to have to work your butt off much harder.

Second, throw Selfless Defence on the secondary tank or class that you find is generating the most aggro next to you, preferably on a class that can also Block and/or Parry so that along with transferring aggro to you will also trigger your reactives.

Third, with Turbine's emphasis on Shield skills the effect of Threatening Presence is much larger than it was before, equip it.

Fourth, again playing a bit like a Warden.. equip enough blue traits so that you can equip Litany Master and get at least a 10% Critical Chance unbuffed. With Litany Master, every time you crit with Sweeping Cut (2xAoE), Vexing Blow, Shield Swipe (2xSingle), Shield Bash and Shield Smash you stack a Threat-Over-Time on your targets that they crit on. Get 2-3 ToT's on your target and it is going to become very difficult for someone to pull that target off of you. Also don't forget Litany of Defiance, which is an AoE taunt also capable of applying the ToT debuff on your targets.

Lastly, with all of this emphasis on Shield skills we would be foolish to turn a blind eye on the long forgotten (at least for me it was) Shield-Smash skill. Unbuffed and not even close to having my shield skill legacies maxed out I am already critting for 2-2.5k damage. Get that kind of a hit on a target (which if you have Litany Master also applies a stackable ToT) and he is yours. Max out your legacies or get them to a high enough level and you will expect to see Shield-Smash numbers in the range of 3-5k easy on a crit.

However, a lot of how I play my Guardian hinges on Critical Chance. Every time I crit I stack a ToT, and every time I crit I do more damage which, especially when coming from my shield equals much, much more threat. I like to call my crit butter zone as 12% unbuffed, with 13% or higher began my goal. For me crits play such a large part for my threat.

I have reach a state where I am finally comfortable enough to permanently drop Threat Stance, and am currently running Defensive Stance full-time.

For Class Traits and Legendaries I run:

[ Class ]
- Selfess Defence: to help with aggro against hard hitting champs and other Guardians and Wardens
- Catch a Breadth: for power restore
- Threatening Presence: a must have with the update
- Shield of Fire: helps with raids in which there are a large number of targets to aggro
- Litany of Challenge: same as above
- Harasser: when coupled with Litany Master helps with stackable ToT and AoE dps
- Grim Challenge: More emergency clutch than anything, you could just-as-well slot Quick of Foot.

[ Legendary ]
- Litany Master: stackable Threat-Over-Time
- Shield-Smash: with Turbine's emphasis on Shield skills and its huge crits, another must have
- To The King: since Litany Master requires a decent crit chance rating it makes sense to use TtK since it also relies on crit

For Sword (hit chance) legacies I run:
* max dps out
- (Major) Whirling Retaliation: for AoE dps
- (Major) Sweeping Cut: for AoE dps
- (Major) Guardian AoE Melee Targets: for AoE dps
* if I have a 4th major I slot Vexing Blow for more AoE dps
- (Minor) Targeted Skills Melee Range: this got a huge buff in RoI and helps a lot with AoE
- Stamp Cooldown: Optional, pick what you want

For Shield legacies I run:
* max Shield Use Rank, or at least get rank 5 or 6
- (Major) Shield Damage: increase my shield damage
- (Major) Threat Generation Up: a must have
- (Major) Catch a Breath Cooldown: for power
- (Minor) Shield Wall Range: optional, I like it
- (Minor) Warrior's Heart/Fortitude Morale Heal: once you get your 5-set bonus and +25% legacy your WF will heal you for 3k morale
- (Minor) Sheild-Smash Damage: increase my shield damge

Originally Posted by Maelendil

This would be quite a news really, as the AOE range was already 5.2m, compared to the pale 2.5m from single targets attack. With the legacy adding 2.3m (on a 65 weapon), this would make our AOE skills hitting farther than challenge or litany of defiance (7m). I can't wait to check that in-game.

that's actually untrue. i'm alt+tabbing to my game right now to be absolutely sure.
maxed out, whirling retaliation, sweeping cut, and traited vexing blow are all 5.2m.

good news (i suppose) is that the new legacy maxes out at 2.9m for lv75, so you can get all your non AOEs to 5.4m

Originally Posted by oaceen

that's actually untrue. i'm alt+tabbing to my game right now to be absolutely sure.
maxed out, whirling retaliation, sweeping cut, and traited vexing blow are all 5.2m.

good news (i suppose) is that the new legacy maxes out at 2.9m for lv75, so you can get all your non AOEs to 5.4m

Yes, I just logged in to check myself. The claim by thatabguy was wrong, and Morlix was right. The legacy does not add to AOE ranges, which are 5.2m with or without the legacy (which only affect single target skills).

I was skeptical of the claim but have not logged in post RoI on my guard as a personal, pointless protest. Thank you for the confirmation that targeted melee skill yet operates as it did when I last played guard - NOT effecting the range on AoE attacks of guards.

Originally Posted by Sidlamel

Ahem. I'm watching you... all of you!

I have to admit confusion, and not over the topic.. Did Bugs Bunny/WB/Turbine hire a bunch of new devs? You and the guy who is Citadel of the Gaurd or something (Ornaith?) have such LOW post counts and your names don't ring a bell..Well, actually on topic, are you the guard dev that you are watching this thread?

Originally Posted by Darlgon

I have to admit confusion, and not over the topic.. Did Bugs Bunny/WB/Turbine hire a bunch of new devs? You and the guy who is Citadel of the Gaurd or something (Ornaith?) have such LOW post counts and your names don't ring a bell..Well, actually on topic, are you the guard dev that you are watching this thread?

i'm guessing they are both new forum moderators, as Guard of the Citadel might suggest.

Originally Posted by Maelendil

Nice setup, and one I would like to have. But me, rank 9 in PvP ? Not going to happen. I would rather reroll and drop tanking altogether than grind ranks in PvP. I keep my fingers crossed for more options in december when the instances are released, because right now I don't like what we are offered.

I'm currently not VIP but have been considering some VIP time in the near future for several reasons, including acquiring some of this gear for my Guard. Looking at the gear only 1 of the items requires rank 9. It looks like you get 1 piece from 4-9, and the only set bonus I'd care about is the 2-set, so rank 5 might be enough. I know very little about PVMP, but thought I'd heard the early ranks come pretty quickly. Does anyone know if it's viable to hit rank 5 in a month?

Originally Posted by Valiant_Turtle

I'm currently not VIP but have been considering some VIP time in the near future for several reasons, including acquiring some of this gear for my Guard. Looking at the gear only 1 of the items requires rank 9. It looks like you get 1 piece from 4-9, and the only set bonus I'd care about is the 2-set, so rank 5 might be enough. I know very little about PVMP, but thought I'd heard the early ranks come pretty quickly. Does anyone know if it's viable to hit rank 5 in a month?

Depending on server and playtime R5 takes a matter of days. Certainly wont take you a month.

Originally Posted by Darlgon

I have to admit confusion, and not over the topic.. Did Bugs Bunny/WB/Turbine hire a bunch of new devs? You and the guy who is Citadel of the Gaurd or something (Ornaith?) have such LOW post counts and your names don't ring a bell..Well, actually on topic, are you the guard dev that you are watching this thread?

HAHAHAHHAHAAH....guard dev watching the guard forums....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. .he/she has been afk w/us for months now except for his very short dev diary post about the changes or lack there of post ROI.

He made it a point to post twice since actually - both times to confirm a nerf and/or some other negative point of interest, while ignoring contemporaneous threads asking for response directly.

Anyone else sensing a theme of genuine antipathy towards this class forum, if not the class itself?