Discussion: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

First off, thanks to the OP for a great summary of the changes and lots of useful information to take into account when looking at our builds.

About the source-based reduction part:

As RtrnofdMax put it:Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

Basically the combat progression is as follows:

1) Miss Chance
2) Resistance (if applicable)
3) BPE (if applicable)
4) Partial BPE and reduction
5) Source-based reduction (Melee, Ranged, Tactical)
6) Damage Type Mitigation

I also remember a dev posting an example somewhere of a warg attacking in melee with shadow damage as an example for the usefulness of having both 'dmg source' reduction and 'dmg type' reduction. So it would seem that they are not intending to 'phase out' the 'dmg source' reductions as op posted.
But, if the 'dmg source' reductions is here to stay, then why do we no longer have some virtues that give us the option to build for dmg source mitigation? Then again, if the damage source reductions would completely diseappear, it would make it easier for us, less options and just stack physical and tactical mitigations as high as we can - though we will get hit by high dr's there, so it would be better to spread your build to partly dmg-source and partly dmg-type to avoid dr's.

Melee Offence Ratings without Fervour for champion (Fervour gives +20%).

80% - 100%
24,281 - 87.3%
23,479 - 84.2%
22,559 - 80.3%

60% - 80%
21,816 - 78%
20,946 - 75.3%
20,376 - 73.5%
19,380 - 70%
17,828 - 64.1%
16,908 - 60.1%

40% - 60%
15,870 - 57%
14,534 - 52.7%
13,010 - 47.3%
12,844 - 46.6%
11,790 - 42.3%

Envoyé par Dorothir

Melee Offence Ratings without Fervour for champion (Fervour gives +20%).

80% - 100%
24,281 - 87.3%
23,479 - 84.2%
22,559 - 80.3%

60% - 80%
21,816 - 78%
20,946 - 75.3%
20,376 - 73.5%
19,380 - 70%
17,828 - 64.1%
16,908 - 60.1%

40% - 60%
15,870 - 57%
14,534 - 52.7%
13,010 - 47.3%
12,844 - 46.6%
11,790 - 42.3%

Thanks a lot, Dorothir! Now I can verify the higher segments.

Edit: I need to know the level of the character too, pls. (Your signature says 65, but I doubt that's upto date).

Envoyé par Alad.

Thanks a lot, Dorothir! Now I can verify the higher segments.

Edit: I need to know the level of the character too, pls. (Your signature says 65, but I doubt that's upto date).

Oops, yeah my bad. Level 75.

Thanks again, Dorothir. Your data confirms the offence formulas I mentioned in the OP, and confirms that this pattern continues to at least +100% offence. I will also change the constant K to a round 300, since it fits better over the whole range.

First of all, excellent post +rep.

Mitigation by Source (reducing the incoming damage depending on the type of skill which caused it, irrespective of the type of damage itself), is all but phased out of the game. All pocket items and Virtues which had Melee Defence Rating and Ranged Defence Rating have been converted to Physical Mitigation (which is reduction of damage by type of damage). Similarly, all pocket items and Virtues which had Tactical Defence Rating have been converted to Tactical Mitigation (again, reduction of damage by type of damage). Very few items remain with the old bonuses:

• The Legendary Class Item scrolls which added Melee/ranged/tactical defence rating, are still there.
• The old, now unobtainable, gems and runes which had those defence ratings, are still there.

The game should take into account whatever defence rating you still have from these items.

I am trying to test mitigation source: tactical usng the LI scroll that gives 600 tactical defense. I cant find anything that is actually mitigated by damage source: tactical.
Things I would have assumed to be a tactical source such as auras and screams etc don't appear to be mitigated by the damage source: tactical. This leads me to believe that mitigation by source will indeed be phased out of the game.

Damage source is showing up as expected for ranged attacks and melee attacks, but its not so simple for tactical attacks. For example gwiber can perform a ranged attack with fire damage. This should check against both your ranged damage source mit and your tact mitigation as explined elsewhere.
For all attacks I would have assumed to be tactical source, they post in the combat log with the name of their skill then the amount of damage and damage type. I haven't found a clean reference to tactical source damage such as gwiber performs a tactical attack, searing heat for 50 fire damage to morale..... or something similar.
The actual combat log just references the name of the skill you get hit by: searing heat and the damage type (fire).
It was the same for all damages/ attacks I would have assumed to be tactical source, they all refer to a unique 'skill' not a damage source in the combat log. Additionally when i tested with and without the scroll the damage for these tactical skills was the same. This leads me to believe all of the tactical def (from the LI scrolls and a bit from some relics that are still available) is not actually mitigating any damage.
The melee def scroll is mitigating melee source damage as expected.

My search for tactical damage sources was not extensive, could someone suggest a good place to test?
I checked auras from gwibers/wights, aoe/screams from spirits, and a couple grims.

It's astonishing that only Tactical Defence Rating doesn't work. As for sources of tactical skills, how about sparring with a friend? Although you'd have to wait and observe critical hits only (the advantage or mob damage is that it is mostly constant), and make sure your sparring opponent doesn't get temporary damage buffs from skills or traits at all (otherwise even the crits won't be the same). I would have chosen the same type of mobs you tested with.

Tactical mob skills don't say so in the combat log; that's how they worked before also. You can only guess from a) the lack of a mention that it's a melee or a ranged attack, and b) they generally have names that sound like spell names, because that's what they are in fact: spells. I would say damage from Auras should be considered as coming from a tactical source as well. I have noticed for a long time, however, that some player skills aren't qualified as melee, ranged or tactical in their tooltips, and that such skills generally don't do damage. So there must be at least one more skill category. Note that DoT damage should be considered of the same source as the skill that put that DoT on you (ranged if it's an arrow, melee if it's a melee weapon hit, and tactical with those sorcerers who like to put fear DoTs on everyone). Fear DoTs, that's perhaps another good source.

One last possibility is that in the case of a DoT (and maybe also an Aura), the tactical defence % you have when the DoT is first applied to you will be used for that DoT's entire duration even if you swap gear during the DoT. Not sure it's like this at all, just an idea for you to look into. Try to get into the aura, note the damage, then run away out of the aura, swap gear, then go back.
Try it with a poison or wound dot too (from an arrow, for example) to see if changing gear modifies the effective DoT damage or not.

As you noted in your first post Fate may be affecting Tact Crit Multiplier. There has been some very preliminary work with Embers and Ballads, but more needs to be done to fully dicipher. If true, some stat (possibly still Fate since it is otherwise becoming useless) probably affects the other crit multipliers also.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...20#post5776120

Envoyé par bastiat1

As you noted in your first post Fate may be affecting Tact Crit Multiplier. There has been some very preliminary work with Embers and Ballads, but more needs to be done to fully dicipher. If true, some stat (possibly still Fate since it is otherwise becoming useless) probably affects the other crit multipliers also.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...20#post5776120

It would be great if you came up with the relationship of how Fate affects the Tactical Critical Multiplier. Keep up the good work!

As for Fate becoming useless, I consider the King of all stats to be ICMR. Given enough of it, you could withstand almost anything. And that's one stat which only Fate still affects. One interesting build, if I had the possibility to try it out, would be one with maxed ICMR and dps. Just that.

Does anyone know if an implied Diminishing Returns exists within the offense rating percent increase? By that I mean:

1% increase at 100% dmg (0% offense rating) = 101/100 = 1% increase
1% increase at 150% dmg (50% offense rating) = 151/150 = .667% increase

If that's the case there could still potentially be a "soft cap" for offense rating depending on class.

Edit: Nvm, I understand the concept of implied DR more clearly now... The percent gain is additive rather than multiplicative. Disregard...

Envoyé par Ivaed

Does anyone know if an implied Diminishing Returns exists within the offense rating percent increase? By that I mean:

1% increase at 100% dmg (0% offense rating) = 101/100 = 1% increase
1% increase at 150% dmg (50% offense rating) = 151/150 = .667% increase

Well, yes that's how everything works, whether in the game or not. A 1% increase from a base value will always be less than 1% if you compare it to an already amplified value. That's not diminishing returns, though (maybe a second order diminishing returns). In order for the +1% to evaluate to a net +1% whatever your current offence is, you wouldn't add it to previous increases (150+1), but multiply it (150*1.01). Some independent bonuses do work this way, but it makes sense for offence% to get increased by adding onto itself, otherwise you wouldn't have linear growth in offence but exponential growth. It's the same difference that exists between simple interest and compound interest.

Thanks for the info,

I was calculating the amount of rating i would need to gain 1% crit chance for a 75 hunter, and the result came up as 281.24 rating for 1%.
On hunter i'm on 20.3% crit chance, and i thaught i would see how much higher it would go when i tried slotting an additional crit setting. The setting is 560 rating, so i was expecting to gain roughly 1.8%, but the resulting gain was more like 0.8%.

Also, when i got the captain critical buff, crit went from approximately 21% to 24%, with the addition of 1.4k rating.

Unfortunately i dont have any accurate numbers but this means crit rating to % must be reduced by DR.

Envoyé par Scratchlings

Thanks for the info,

I was calculating the amount of rating i would need to gain 1% crit chance for a 75 hunter, and the result came up as 281.24 rating for 1%.
On hunter i'm on 20.3% crit chance, and i thaught i would see how much higher it would go when i tried slotting an additional crit setting. The setting is 560 rating, so i was expecting to gain roughly 1.8%, but the resulting gain was more like 0.8%.

Also, when i got the captain critical buff, crit went from approximately 21% to 24%, with the addition of 1.4k rating.

Unfortunately i dont have any accurate numbers but this means crit rating to % must be reduced by DR.

Crit rating has always used the same formula as BPE, and everything else that used to be capped at 15%.

For things capped at 25%, (crit, BPE, incoming healing), the formula is...

rating: 0 - 70 * level (0% - 15%), percent = rating / (1190 / 3 * level + rating)
rating: 70 * level - 158.15 * level (15% - 25%), percent = (rating - 70 * level) / (2380 / 3 * level + (rating - 70 * level)) + 0.15

For the secondary attribute of things capped at 25% (partial BPE, dev crits... again, not sure if there's anything else), the formula is...

rating: 0 - 147.78 * level (0% - 10%), percent = rating / (1330 * level + rating)

For things capped at 50%, (outgoing healing, finesse, resistance)

rating: 0 - 170 * level (0% - 30%), percent = rating / 1190 / 3 * level + rating)
rating: 170 * level - 368.33 * level (30% - 50%), percent = (rating - 170 * level) / (2380 / 3 * level) + (rating - 170 * level)) + 0.30

Edit: + 0.30, not + 0.25. Incoming healing has a 25% cap.

Thanks for those formulas, moebius. Shouldn't that last term be +0.30 ?

Do you have some data points on the new segments (apart from warden block which you gave in your previous post)?

I sent you a PM, btw.

Envoyé par moebius92

For the secondary attribute of things capped at 25% (partial BPE, dev crits... again, not sure if there's anything else), the formula is...

rating: 0 - 147.78 * level (0% - 10%), percent = rating / (1330 * level + rating)

This also seems to be a typo.
If that were' true , a tank with 15% block (5250 rating@ lvl75) would have 13,9% partial block... or a hunter @15% crit would also have 13,8% dev crit chance
Or is there any secret way to determine the rating for partials ? Perhaps I'm missing something

Anyways, could anyone correct the formulae ? Every other formulae seems to work :]

So thanks alot @moebius for providing those !


[edit]

For things capped at 50%, (outgoing healing, finesse, resistance, maybe incoming healing)

Incoming Healing seems to be correct up to 15% (rating 5250@lvl75 again)
But a rating of 5608 grants 15,5% inc. healing ingame, according to the guess it should be 15,86=15,9%

Thus it seems Incoming healing rather is using the formulae für "Things capped at 25%"
When I use those, a rating of 5608 results in 15,6% , which is the same the character screen show.
Sadly I can't really provide more data point in thise case, as inc. healing is quite hard to get.

Envoyé par Alad.

T
Do you have some data points on the new segments (apart from warden block which you gave in your previous post)?

I can confirm the correctness of the new segments for the BPE - formulae. Tested it with guardian (B) and warden (B and E) and every data point I collected was absolutely correct. There were just 8 data points I checked out, but as every single one was correct w/o any deviation, that seems to be accurate enough/a sample size big enough.

Envoyé par Minyacairwen

This also seems to be a typo.
If that were' true , a tank with 15% block (5250 rating@ lvl75) would have 13,9% partial block... or a hunter @15% crit would also have 13,8% dev crit chance
Or is there any secret way to determine the rating for partials ? Perhaps I'm missing something

I think you must be calculating wrong. 5250/(1330*75 + 5250) gives me 0.05=5% which is correct. This is also the same formula as before. The cap hasn't changed for these, and all the values I've checked still agree with the old formula too.

Thanks alot Amphoras - it was _me_ missing something in that single case *blushes*

Works like a charm, too now !

Envoyé par Alad.

Thanks for those formulas, moebius. Shouldn't that last term be +0.30 ?

Yes. Yes, it should. Thanks for catching that. I'll have to edit that.

Envoyé par Alad.

Do you have some data points on the new segments (apart from warden block which you gave in your previous post)?

I've got ... three, maybe four data points with outgoing healing with my minstrel. I didn't check it extensively, mostly because the formula was derived based on what I thought it should be, without looking at any data. There shouldn't be any chance of overfitting.

Envoyé par Minyacairwen

Incoming Healing seems to be correct up to 15% (rating 5250@lvl75 again)
But a rating of 5608 grants 15,5% inc. healing ingame, according to the guess it should be 15,86=15,9%

Thus it seems Incoming healing rather is using the formulae für "Things capped at 25%"
When I use those, a rating of 5608 results in 15,6% , which is the same the character screen show.
Sadly I can't really provide more data point in thise case, as inc. healing is quite hard to get.

Really only takes one point over 15% to check if somethings in the 25% cap or the 50% cap. My initial assumption was that incoming and outgoing healing would use the same cap, but, I guess not. Weird.

I'd just like to corroborate the numbers moebius92 came up with for bpe above 15%. When I ran the numbers on my lvl 75 warden, I came up with a multi-interval function as well, with similar constants. I used ratings for block, parry and evade, and the formula works well for all three avoidances. I also fit the amount of damage that is mitigated by partials, and it seems to be capped at 35%:

for 0 < rating < 70*level,
partial mitigation = rating / (1190/3 * level + rating) + 0.2

for 70*level < rating,
partial mitigation = 0.35

Relics or traits that add partial mitigation can obviously take you above that limit.

I'm sorry if this is the wrong place for this question. Myself and some friends have been trying to figure out new builds and how the stats/mechanics are working, we have run into some confusion. If anyone can help us, it would be really appreciated!

Our confusion lies in the caps listed in the dev diary (see copy below) and what our character journals are showing.
So, for example: a Champ has 1600ish might and 90%ish melee offence in fervour stance (listed in character journal). This is obviously over the stated dev diary cap. Are the caps listed in the dev diary a "soft cap" ? So what exactly is goin on? Maybe I'm just being slow and not seeing the bigger picture. I don't get it. *derp*

These 2 statements (below) seem to contradict each other:

OP of this thread states:The caps on Offence % have been removed. The offence rating to % conversion has been enhanced (more below).

from ROI stat dev diary:

The caps on Primary characteristics, Might, Agility, Vitality, Will and Fate are completely removed. The caps on Block, Parry, Evade, Incoming Healing and Critical Hit ratings have been increased to 25%. The caps on Offences, Outgoing Healing and Resistance ratings have been increased to 50%. The relaxation of the ratings based caps starts at level 50.
Stat Percentage Previously
Block 25% 15%
Parry 25% 15%
Evade 25% 15%
Incoming Healing 25% 15%
Melee,Ranged,Tactical Offence 50% 30%
Resistance 50% 30%
Outgoing Healing 50% 30%

Help a newb out please!?

That Dev diary was written before the beta and is outdated as far as the cap on Offence is concerned. During the beta they removed the Offence cap, as you can see in the official Release Notes for Isengard:

Stat Updates

We have removed most of the diminishing returns from Offence ratings, increased the percentage gained per rating point, and removed the cap.

The +90% you see in Melee Offence% for a champion in fervour includes the +20% from the stance.

Envoyé par seraphim1729

I'd just like to corroborate the numbers moebius92 came up with for bpe above 15%. When I ran the numbers on my lvl 75 warden, I came up with a multi-interval function as well, with similar constants. I used ratings for block, parry and evade, and the formula works well for all three avoidances. I also fit the amount of damage that is mitigated by partials, and it seems to be capped at 35%:

for 0 < rating < 70*level,
partial mitigation = rating / (1190/3 * level + rating) + 0.2

for 70*level < rating,
partial mitigation = 0.35

Relics or traits that add partial mitigation can obviously take you above that limit.

Thanks for the confirmation and info about partial mitigation cap. Can I have some numbers please? (Level, Rating, %) for:
- B/P/E % chance above 15%
- Partial B/P/E % chance above 5%
- Partial B/P/E % mitigation (this should simply be 20% + the non-partial % chance, but in case it's different...)
- Any other stat above the old caps (Out/In Healing, Resists, Crits, Crit Defence, Devastate Crits, etc...)

Note: The % obtained should not include any direct % stat bonus.

Thanks!

Nice work! Champs using light shields is a bug and is getting corrected. Champs wont be able to use any kind of shield.

Envoyé par Hellgato

Nice work! Champs using light shields is a bug and is getting corrected. Champs wont be able to use any kind of shield.

Thanks. Do you have a source for that info?

Envoyé par Alad.

Thanks for the confirmation and info about partial mitigation cap. Can I have some numbers please?

Sure. Level 75

rating, bpe, partial, mitigation
1470, 0.047, 0.015, 0.247
1746, 0.055, 0.017, 0.255
2144, 0.067, 0.021, 0.267
2492, 0.077, 0.024, 0.277
2602, 0.08, 0.025, 0.28
2860, 0.088, 0.028, 0.288
3426, 0.103, 0.033, 0.303
4320, 0.127, 0.042, 0.327
4654, 0.135, 0.045, 0.335
5106, 0.146, 0.049, 0.346
5196, 0.149, 0.05, 0.349
5250, 0.15, 0.05, 0.35
5382, 0.152, 0.051
5550, 0.155, 0.053, 0.35
6322, 0.168, 0.06
6656, 0.173, 0.063
6996, 0.179, 0.066
8122, 0.196, 0.075
8658, 0.204, 0.08
9922, 0.223, 0.09
10458, 0.23, 0.095
12258, 0.25, 0.1

Thanks MasterOfMojo for your numbers. Your last line (12258, 0.25, 0.1) seems to indicate that the Partial % Chance is capped at 10%, because that point lies below the curve. And I just noticed that moebius stealthily mentions "(0-10%)" in his post I wasn't aware that partial % chance had a cap too.

Envoyé par Alad.

Thanks. Do you have a source for that info?

here's a link for that

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...59#post5737159

Envoyé par moebius92

Really only takes one point over 15% to check if somethings in the 25% cap or the 50% cap. My initial assumption was that incoming and outgoing healing would use the same cap, but, I guess not. Weird.

You're most probably correct. But, strictly speaking, one point over 15% would only deduce the formula used to convert that stat's rating to %; it would not also allow you to conclude that this stat is likewise capped at the same %. You would need at least one more point above the supposed cap to deduce that. It could well be, for example, that incoming healing does not have a 25% cap. But it most probably does since the dev diary also says so.

Envoyé par seraphim1729

I also fit the amount of damage that is mitigated by partials, and it seems to be capped at 35%:

for 0 < rating < 70*level,
partial mitigation = rating / (1190/3 * level + rating) + 0.2

for 70*level < rating,
partial mitigation = 0.35

Relics or traits that add partial mitigation can obviously take you above that limit.

I just had a thought that this might actually be a bug. It's as if it assumes the BPE is still capped at 15% (and adds the usual 20% to it).

Envoyé par moebius92

rating: 170 * level - 368.33 * level (30% - 50%), percent = (rating - 170 * level) / ((2380 / 3 * level) + (rating - 170 * level)) + 0.30

I just verified this for Outgoing Healing with 6 data points above 30%. It was a surprise to see that the new segment actually produces slightly higher percentages than the old curve. I have a feeling this may not be the case for Resistance, but I have yet to find data for resistance above 30%. So if anyone has some, please post them here. Thanks.

Envoyé par moebius92

Really only takes one point over 15% to check if somethings in the 25% cap or the 50% cap. My initial assumption was that incoming and outgoing healing would use the same cap, but, I guess not. Weird.

Well, before RoI they had different cap's as well, that's why i was actually abit skeptical and wanted to try that ^^;

I have a feeling this may not be the case for Resistance, but I have yet to find data for resistance above 30%. So if anyone has some, please post them here. Thanks.

A rating of 13208 resistance nets 30,8% on character screen
13108 - 30,6%
12748 - 30,0%

Sadly this is just abit over the cap, thus it's not really helping at all.

Will try to get a Cappy tomorrow (+300 resistance rating) and perhaps a bard (another +170).


Also @inc. healing
5952 - 16,2%
6840 - 17,6%
7376 - 18,5%

Envoyé par Minyacairwen

A rating of 13208 resistance nets 30,8% on character screen
13108 - 30,6%
12748 - 30,0%

Sadly this is just abit over the cap, thus it's not really helping at all.

Will try to get a Cappy tomorrow (+300 resistance rating) and perhaps a bard (another +170).

Thank you! (I'm assuming these are level 75 data).
There's only a very small difference of 0.02% when calculating using the old and the new curves, and it happens to be right at the rounding toggle point, so it appears this 30.8% point is actually on the same enhanced curve as the new Outgoing Healing.
Old: 13208 > 30.746% (rounded to 30.7%)
New: 13208 > 30.764% (rounded to 30.8%)
Looking forward to a slightly higher point. (A minstrel can give you thousands of resist rating with Tale of Battle and Anthem of Composure. By bard I assume you can still trait some virtues, cool! Don't forget Soups, pocket items, and that you can get the resistance reading from wound/poison/etc.. too, if it's higher!)

Also @inc. healing
5952 - 16,2%
6840 - 17,6%
7376 - 18,5%

These are definitely on the new BPE % Chance curve. Thanks.

Updated the original post:

• Now using a single general formula for all Rating to % conversions.
• Added Resistance, Outgoing Healing, BPE, etc...

If there's anything missing or wrong, please let me know.

One quick question, I don't know where to post it and it seems like Alad you are the man with information

Critical hit of auto-attack and devastating critical hit of auto-attack is the same damage. Working as intended?

Envoyé par Fin.

One quick question, I don't know where to post it and it seems like Alad you are the man with information

Critical hit of auto-attack and devastating critical hit of auto-attack is the same damage. Working as intended?

Yes, it has been like that as far as I remember. Both crit multipliers are the same for auto-attacks: 1.25 of max damage (or 1.56 of avg damage) for the main hand (and 1.50 of max damage (1.88 of avg damage) for the off-hand when dual-wielding.)
It could be a longstanding bug from when they first introduced devastating crits, though.

Envoyé par Alad.

Thank you! (I'm assuming these are level 75 data).

Yes, those were taken @lvl 75

Looking forward to a slightly higher point. (A minstrel can give you thousands of resist rating with Tale of Battle and Anthem of Composure. By bard I assume you can still trait some virtues, cool! Don't forget Soups, pocket items, and that you can get the resistance reading from wound/poison/etc.. too, if it's higher!)

Already stacked all +2k and +1k resistance virtues, ate a soup, equipped all my +vit and +will stuff, but don't own any individual +resistance gear =/
Sadly no Cappy or Minstrel was willing to help me out with buffs yet, so it might take awhile longer to get higher values =(
Still working on it, though...

Subbed! You're the best. Fantastic stuff here. Good job, I'll be leafing through these posts checking numbers a lot! /thumbup /rep /patpat /etc

Updated the original posts with tables. I think it's clearer that way.

Also added an important conclusion regarding offence. At level 75, 28.1 Might/Will/Agility (depending on class) gets you an extra 1% offence.

However, offence may not be your best option if you have others. This thread shows you how to objectively compare different damage bonuses.

This is amazing work; thanks Alad, and all other contributors.

I'm just finishing up work on a program that calculates stats for all possible combinations of gear from a user-selected set of available jewelry/armour/weapons/traits, and then rates each one according to a user-specified utility function. This info clearly saved me days of trial and error.

If only I'd found it earlier - the little tidbit about Dwarf/Elf Fate penalties being -7 now instead of -8 took me over a day to figure out - I assumed it must be my calcs