Thread: Barnavon is an example of how NOT to design a quest chain / boss fight

You know what's a good idea? Let's make a handful of quests where a player has to fight a boss - let's make him a signature - and because we can't be bothered to make it actually challenging due to a test of skill, let's make it so the boss is immune to stuns, fears, and roots, give him about four or five bodyguards, and ummmmm.....let's make him deliver 300-500 damage every hit, give him the ability to stun, place him in a densely packed area of other hostile NPCs, label it a solo quest, and expect squishy induction classes to complete it just to troll them.

Oh wait, that's a terrible idea. Oh well. Do it anyway.

Turbine, either label these Barnavon quests as a small fellowship, or allow the named NPC bosses to be CC'd in someway. My repair bill will thank you.

You can CC the bodyguards if I am not mistaken and burn the boss down. I think the bodyguards might also not stop spawning until you kill the boss either. It did catch me off guard as being more challenging than I anticipated, but a quick adjustment of tactics on the fly got me through it. I can see how others would find it challenging though.

That fight annoyed me too, but I'm talking about the open world quests, not the instanced ones.

Originally Posted by Arasilion

That fight annoyed me too, but I'm talking about the open world quests, not the instanced ones.

I know which quest you're talking about, but if I'm confused it means I'm just mistaken on the bodyguard repsawns. That tactic for a hunter would still hold true. RoT and burn.

While getting hit for outrageous amounts and/or stunned by the Dundending Chuck Norris AND trying to kite without running into other mobs. It's just not fun.

Originally Posted by Arasilion

While getting hit for outrageous amounts and/or stunned by the Dundending Chuck Norris AND trying to kite without running into other mobs. It's just not fun.

I think that would be an overstatement. It takes some thought and some strategy, but that doesn't mean it's near impossible to complete.

Hmmm. Just done that quest. Perfectly soloable for Guardians. Guess it is a very class dependent issue.

Did it with a burglar. Needed a health potion and it was close - but doable.

I cant remember by hand now which one is it but I know I used bubble on my champ only on Isengard overseers. Everything else was pretty much easy.

Is this the quest where you gotta kill the Chief's son while 2 bodyguards pound on you and an archer NPC spawns when you kill a guard? I BARELY got thru this and I had to die some kiting while waiting for my potions and bubble to come off cooldown.

First, I got stuck half way through the quest, had to cancel it and pick it back up again, because of poor quest design.
Second, let me explain how to do the quest easily.

The first time I ran over to tag his quest ring then kill him, the bodyguards attacked and I was taking them when whats-his-name also joined in the fight. I killed all the bodyguards but died in the process. I hurridly bought a respawn tome, used it, he turned to attack me, just as some other random character shot him and killed him. When he respawned, he was unattackable and no longer had the quest ring over his head. The quest doesn't say who the quest giver is (even in the history) and I couldn't remember whether I'd picked it up over at the mine or not and didn't want to travel all over looking for a questgiver. So I had to wait until someone else came and then I could ask them who gave the quest, cancel the quest, wait 5 minutes, pick it up again, then make my way back out again.

This time, armed with some foreknowledge, I looked around for a good spot to fight the bodyguards. In the back left corner there's a small shed (more like a gazebo -- it has a roof but no walls) with a few bales of straw and some unattackable sheep wandering around. I hit his quest ring then immediately turned and ran back under that shed. There, out of his aggro range, I killed his bodyguards, keeping a close eye out for any approaching character who might pull him and put me back in the same quandry. Once I killed the four bodyguards, I pulled and killed him.

Minstrels can use Distract to cut down on the number of bodyguards you have to fight at once (although I didn't, I just fought all four at the same time in warspeech since they don't even have 2k morale each and I used all my AoE's).

Lore-masters can blinding flash then pull back even farther into the corner and you and your pet should make short work of the three remaining bodyguards before killing the fourth then the guy.

Rune-keepers, come on, AoE all the bodyguards then get the guy, you don't need any help.

I haven't done this in the live game yet, but I did do so in beta, level 69 Hunter. Took a few tries. I killed the Dunlandings out in front of the hut so I'd have a clear field to work in, then used OrdinaryOwl's suggestion - RoT on the guards, then focus everything I had on the main guy. I did use a potion, and I may have used Strength of Morale too... he hits hard, and I was several levels below him, and using a level 65 3rd Age bow.

The fight that was impossible back in early beta was Bloodmaw. Back then, there was no NPC "assist", and she was an Elite Master who hit for 600-800 without crits. I filed a defect on that one .

Khafar

It's surprisingly reassuring to know that other people had difficulty with these quests.

I definatly think that it's obvious quest designers don't play loremasters.

Originally Posted by Khafar

I haven't done this in the live game yet, but I did do so in beta, level 69 Hunter. Took a few tries. I killed the Dunlandings out in front of the hut so I'd have a clear field to work in, then used OrdinaryOwl's suggestion - RoT on the guards, then focus everything I had on the main guy. I did use a potion, and I may have used Strength of Morale too... he hits hard, and I was several levels below him, and using a level 65 3rd Age bow.

The fight that was impossible back in early beta was Bloodmaw. Back then, there was no NPC "assist", and she was an Elite Master who hit for 600-800 without crits. I filed a defect on that one .

Khafar

Yeah, even the fixed bloodmaw still a changellence.

Though Barnavon was really nice place. People should learn to group up and use common sense about these quests. there are a few signature in that camp with bodyguard around.. hmm to me it sounds 2 or 3 fellow should do quest there.

Originally Posted by MorningStarSE

Yeah, even the fixed bloodmaw still a changellence.

Though Barnavon was really nice place. People should learn to group up and use common sense about these quests. there are a few signature in that camp with bodyguard around.. hmm to me it sounds 2 or 3 fellow should do quest there.

Erm, I at least realize it's better suited for a small fellowship if you're a squishy induction class (which is how I eventually finished those quests). Mislabeling it as a solo quest is a dev issue.

Yeah I died once doing this because I didn't realize that the guards just keep spawning, so I wasted too much time killing them. It sucked.

They didnt respawn for me. The quest was a little finky though. First time I Rot'd them and he came along with 1 other that resisted. I got in trouble so I got out of there and came back. By the time I got back someone else was killing them and when I got my chance they werent any of them attackable. So I had to cancel and reget the quest. Next time he was not attackable so I killed the adds (no respawns) and then he was attackable. Killed him single no problem.

I managed this with my hunter - kind of. After I had burned down the four bodyguards I was left with about 800 morale and pots on cooldown (thanks for drastically diminishing my morale pool Turbine!), and I took to kiting the boss around the back of his house so I could use another pot. At some point however he tired of running after me and and went in a huff back to standing at the door. He was still red, and his guards did not respawn. I just waited to regenerate fully and then pulled him into a fight again. Luckily there was no-one else around to accidentally aggro him in the meantime.

Barnarvon is a poorly designed area, period. Who thought it was a good idea to place two hostile NPCs between the mailbox and the main quest giver (and stable) and in aggro range of both (in fact, one of them is within two metres of the main quest giver)? Or what about the patrolling mobs that aggro on anyone using an NPC? You cannot argue that people who have difficulties doing quests didn't read the quest bestowal dialogue when you don't give them time to read any of the quests because of the rapidly respawning enemies right on top of the quest giver.

The idea that we have to avoid the Ox Clan is good, but the implementation is awful. If we are supposed to avoid them, and the NPCs are scared of being seen talking to us, why are the quest givers and merchants all either in plain view, or right in front, of the guards? The irony is that almost all of the friendly targets of the quests are not near any of the guards.

As for the specific quest the in the OP, I'm not sure which one you're talking about because there are two, or three, of them in this area, that are very similar. I had no issues with the first, died three times with the second (the one in the middle), and the third I had to /bug because everything aggro'd on someone else that was just standing around nearby, doing nothing, after I had dropped RoA on them. I suspect that the best way to do the third is to make use of the sheep pen and use your traps.

I hated this area more than the awfully bugged Pit of Iron.

Originally Posted by mjk47

Hmmm. Just done that quest. Perfectly soloable for Guardians. Guess it is a very class dependent issue.

Seriously, what is not soloable by a guardian? Guardians, Champions and Wardens will obviously have no problem with that fight. As a Champion, I just went into Glory and used my bubble, by the time the bubble was over, all the adds were dead and the boss under half health.

I can see a problem for non-"tanky" classes though.

Originally Posted by Korrigan

Seriously, what is not soloable by a guardian? Guardians, Champions and Wardens will obviously have no problem with that fight. As a Champion, I just went into Glory and used my bubble, by the time the bubble was over, all the adds were dead and the boss under half health.

I can see a problem for non-"tanky" classes though.

I havent gone in glory nor used bubble until I came to Isengard dailies and overseers quest at lvl 73. Even then I never went in glory and bubble I used once on 4 of them when I got unlucky crit.
Not a single other quest and I soloed them all to 75.

I am noticing a lot of hunters getting craploads of agility at the expense of all other stats. Some in my kin have morale at 3k what is ridiculous. If you want to squeeze out that last bit of damage no matter what it costs you then dont be surprised you get oneshotted.

Originally Posted by CFury

I havent gone in glory nor used bubble until I came to Isengard dailies and overseers quest at lvl 73. Even then I never went in glory and bubble I used once on 4 of them when I got unlucky crit.
Not a single other quest and I soloed them all to 75.

I am noticing a lot of hunters getting craploads of agility at the expense of all other stats. Some in my kin have morale at 3k what is ridiculous. If you want to squeeze out that last bit of damage no matter what it costs you then dont be surprised you get oneshotted.

Sometimes I like it safe - but grats to you for being a "tough guy" - I've done most quests in Fervour too, and I'm sure I could have done that one the same way, but I rather be safe than sorry and having to redo it, it only takes a few more seconds anyway.
And yeah, the overseers are bad - thanks Turbine for the changes to the class and the new cooldowns we got

Originally Posted by BrianDavion

I definatly think that it's obvious quest designers don't play loremasters.

They dont play loremasters without CC.

Come on guys. For years we see complains about ez-mode and Lotro going downhill. Turbine made 1 (ONE!) hard quest and what? Again complaints...

Originally Posted by Wanderv

They dont play loremasters without CC.

Come on guys. For years we see complains about ez-mode and Lotro going downhill. Turbine made 1 (ONE!) hard quest and what? Again complaints...

Maybe instead of being mocking and sarcastic, you could tell the guy HOW to do it on a Loremaster without breaking a sweat?

Originally Posted by Korrigan

Maybe instead of being mocking and sarcastic, you could tell the guy HOW to do it on a Loremaster without breaking a sweat?

I found it a bit of a shock to die a couple of times in that place, as a Hunter. I think we've just got used to things being too easy. One I was forced to think none of this was a real problem. I took to laying triple traps behind me to catch respawns.

Originally Posted by Kongas

I found it a bit of a shock to die a couple of times in that place, as a Hunter. I think we've just got used to things being too easy. One I was forced to think none of this was a real problem. I took to laying triple traps behind me to catch respawns.

Excellent Post. Quests that make you think a bit to figure out how to do them are, IMHO, a very good thing. All our characters have a variety of tools available, sometimes we have to be a bit more creative about how we do them.

Originally Posted by Korrigan

Sometimes I like it safe - but grats to you for being a "tough guy" - I've done most quests in Fervour too, and I'm sure I could have done that one the same way, but I rather be safe than sorry and having to redo it, it only takes a few more seconds anyway.
And yeah, the overseers are bad - thanks Turbine for the changes to the class and the new cooldowns we got

I am a girl
And not that "tough" either. I just didnt find reason to get out of fervour, I am used being in it 99% of the time and only popping glory when I have to tank some boss. I started with some decent gear and used consumables regularly. I havent died single time apart from falling through bridges in Pit of Iron.

I am leveling my minstrel now and its even easier. Hunter I just tried few quests with so cant say much yet. I am used to soloing a lot (albeit being a die hard grouper and raider) so I know how to use survival skills on my characters. Its not just whoop the damage and pewpew that does the trick.

Originally Posted by mjk47

Excellent Post. Quests that make you think a bit to figure out how to do them are, IMHO, a very good thing. All our characters have a variety of tools available, sometimes we have to be a bit more creative about how we do them.

Except our "variety of tools" only make the word Immune show up over the NPCs head.

I didn't have any problems with that quest on my Warden but could see how other classes would have problems for sure. I think the worst are has to the the Iron Pit in the Gap. You literally fall through areas and get stuck. I'm not looking forward to going through there again.

Originally Posted by CFury

I am noticing a lot of hunters getting craploads of agility at the expense of all other stats. Some in my kin have morale at 3k what is ridiculous. If you want to squeeze out that last bit of damage no matter what it costs you then dont be surprised you get oneshotted.

Ouch, that's low. I think there might be a bug in my.lotro.com but my Hunter is currently showing, at lvl 75:

6552 morale
2499 power
1147 agility
5424 finesse

The morale is higher than I recall it being, but there you go, that's a good general impression of where a Hunter can be at lvl 75. So if someone's running 3k morale at lvl 75, I'm not sure what they're doing. You absolutely do not need to sacrifice that much morale - you can have decent morale (as I do) with high agility and finesse. This char does insane damage - sure, Agi could be higher (and will be in time), but I'm already well into DR there.

***

If you're going to build a glass cannon (which Hunters assuredly are, in RoI), you really, really, REALLY need to make careful and heavy use of your CC. Traps, roots, fears, and dazes make all the difference. In the specific instance called out in the OP, you should CC the bodyguards. Yes, if you choose to let a pack of foes hit you at the same time, you'll likely be defeated. Don't do that.

Just my view.

Originally Posted by CFury

I am noticing a lot of hunters getting craploads of agility at the expense of all other stats. Some in my kin have morale at 3k what is ridiculous. If you want to squeeze out that last bit of damage no matter what it costs you then dont be surprised you get oneshotted.

5.2K health at 674 vitality. What other strawmen would you like to burn?

First, There are two similar quests here and I get the sense people are talking about one or the there and not realizing it. There's one that takes place in an instance and the boss calls guards again and again (though I don't think they respawn, they're just a lot of them spread around. I eventually killed all the guards and then took on the boss).

The other one takes place in the landscape (this is the one the OP is talking about). It's a tight squeeze in there to not aggro any other bunches of mobs and only fight the boss and his four guards.

Personally, on a lvl 70 LM, I found both to be challenging because in both cases the boss hits like a mack truck. So long as I had my Wisdom of the Council (big self-heal) and Man Heal available, it wasn't a problem though.

I did actually die in the instanced one because I was so surprised by how hard the boss hit and my heals were on cooldown. But then I came back and worked it differently (don't approach the boss until you've killed all the adds) and it was no sweat.

Not sure it's worth complaining about. So I died. Big deal. I came back, adjusted and got it done the second time. I considered it my fault for becoming lazy and complacent.

The design of the encounters are fine. If a bit jarring. But the fact remains they can be completed solo. . . so it's not necessary to label them any different. Or, I'm unaware that "solo quest" means: "You will never ever need to try this quest twice. Defeat is not possible."

--H

I am not liking how a couple quest require you to "activate" the NPC buy getting right on top of him or starting a dialog. While not a problem fro melee classes, it is a significant drawback for range based classe. My hunter is having problems with many of these.

Originally Posted by Hurin

The design of the encounters are fine. If a bit jarring. But the fact remains they can be completed solo. . . so it's not necessary to label them any different.

I'm going to have to disagree, on this point. Like Elderban, I wound up in a bugged state where I could not complete the quest because while I was doing it someone else waltzed in and tagged the boss. I got the 'fun' of figuring out how to take out the guards on my hunter so I could accomplish my goal, but someone else (probably unwittingly) was able to render my effort moot. It is not 'fun' to have to deal with bugged content. This is not the only quest in the expansion that is able to be bugged like this - one in the Gravenwoods can prevent advancing down an entire quest chain without GM intervention.

So as to the design of the encounters: no, not fine.

Originally Posted by Ascus2

I am not liking how a couple quest require you to "activate" the NPC buy getting right on top of him or starting a dialog. While not a problem fro melee classes, it is a significant drawback for range based classe. My hunter is having problems with many of these.

This problem has existed since closed beta. E.g. "Reconnecting Ties" is a lvl 9 quest in Chetwood that requires you to walk up to an NPC, click on him to trigger the quest, then defeat him.

Originally Posted by Lomeloth

I'm going to have to disagree, on this point. Like Elderban, I wound up in a bugged state where I could not complete the quest because while I was doing it someone else waltzed in and tagged the boss. I got the 'fun' of figuring out how to take out the guards on my hunter so I could accomplish my goal, but someone else (probably unwittingly) was able to render my effort moot. It is not 'fun' to have to deal with bugged content. This is not the only quest in the expansion that is able to be bugged like this - one in the Gravenwoods can prevent advancing down an entire quest chain without GM intervention.

So as to the design of the encounters: no, not fine.

Fair enough. But that's not at all the design issues being addressed in this thread to this point (or at least, that's not what the OP is complaining about).

So if increasing the damage, making it immune to certain types of CC, or adding a couple of allies isn't making it challenging in your book, how pray tell would YOU do it?

And FYI, I have done that quest on my LM. Very tough, but doable.

Originally Posted by Ascus2

I am not liking how a couple quest require you to "activate" the NPC buy getting right on top of him or starting a dialog. While not a problem fro melee classes, it is a significant drawback for range based classe. My hunter is having problems with many of these.

I soloed my entire way to 75 on my hunter. I ran into a few quests that took a couple trys to finally get but I was able to do them solo. Most of the mobs u have to talk to in order to active the quest can be CCed. Traps are ur friends for those quests. Lay a trap in front of them before activating them, then run them through it. Then ur able to get to range and range them down.

Bloodmaw was actually fun to solo as a hunter . The worst quest u'll come across as a hunter is a quest in Gravenwood I think, called Taking a Stand. Really hard solo but it's doable.

Originally Posted by Korrigan

Seriously, what is not soloable by a guardian? Guardians, Champions and Wardens will obviously have no problem with that fight.

Aww man...guess I'm a fail afer 3 years :O(.

No, the guy DOES hit hard in that instance and the first add that I got was ranged so it was a bit unexpected and i got pretty low on health.....a little kiting and a little adjustment (kill ranged..ignore next guard who was melee) and I got it done....but came real close to not.

Haven't done it on a squishy yet, but once you take care of the first 3 guards, mez or root the spawn and take the boss down. Not an easy fight....but with a bit of planning you can get it done...and.....I think if you DO die......it gets a bit easier when you respawn if yer careful.