Thread: Fog of War

Was removed for world map. But, it still plagues public instances like Crafting Hall and Auction House in Galtrev. Please clear the fog from public space maps.

I agree that things should be consistent, but I disagree that the fog of war disappearing was desirable.

Granted the lore masters made a bunch of maps and now we can see them, heck there are even big ones you can hang in your house--but I think the exploring more challenging when I had no idea how things were laid out. Don't get me wrong, the map being revealed is very useful, like in the spidery area of Mirkwood (I get lost with the map anyway), but it would have been a lot more challenging to have the map get filled out as I traveled along--same with Moria. I was able to use the map to locate areas to complete the explorer deed, which sort of defeats the purpose--it made it more of a tourist deed than an explorer deed, I think.

Ugh. I hated the map just becoming clear from the start. I can never remember which stables I've checked in at now that the maps are viewable from the get go.

I agree. I much preferred the old 'fog of war'. It felt like really exploring. When I looked at Mirkwood, and could see the whole things, I was like, what the...???

It definitely takes some of the mystery and magic out of 'exploring' if everything is already right there for you.

Even if there is an option to 'enable' the fog of war, having it disabled by default reveals the entire map, and you may see things that you didn't want totally revealed.

For the record, I really liked the old Fog of War. I simply stated that it was gone as a preface to my request. It was inconsistent and sometimes cleared a zone just for getting close (rather than finding a landmark or opening the stable or some other event). But, I could live with that.

This thread, however, is about the silly fog of war on public instances. Goblin Town Fog = check. Barrow fog = check. Craft Hall fog = /sigh. No need for mystery there. Just show me the supplier, forge, and vault-keeper!

(thread... arise! It lives.. it lives!!!)

I'm a LOTRO player who's been away for the past 10 months. Left off with my Level 41 Burg cooling his furry heels in Rivendell, preparing to explore Angmar and the Misty Mountains for the first time. It's been a busy year with my startup company, but as 2012 opens, I finally have time again to return to LOTRO. I've been looking forward to getting back into Middle Earth for months!

Logged in a few nights ago, and was very surprised to see the Fog of War has been removed. Since this is my first time through these regions, I tried not to look too closely at the map, and started searching for the UI toggle. Surely there was a UI toggle for FOW, right? Then I found this thread and discovered that a) it's gone for every map and b) there's no toggle.

Initially I was profoundly disappointed, as exploring and uncovering the world was one of the activities I most enjoyed in LOTRO. The exploration of new vistas (in a world I've read about since a child) has brought me some of the best gaming moments in 25+ years of PC gaming. So I've tried to forge ahead by first, not using the map, and then when that proved extremely difficult in new areas, to only focus on the map region I'm in and trying to ignore the rest of the screen.

After two nights of trying, I'm giving up. It has been very disappointing to journey across the Ram Duath, and immediately see all the terrain between my tiny foothold in the SW and Carn Dum. I had journeyed across once before, and the sense of dread and uncertainty about what lay ahead was palpable. If I was seeing rock worms and Drakes here at the border of Angmar, what sights lay within? Yes the POIs are still to be discovered, and the graphical vistas will still be marvelous, but it's completely different to reach a peak and see what you expected to see, versus seeing something new and unexpected.

The same experience happened with the Misty Mountains. Before the extended hiatus, I'd explored as far as the Bitter Stair, but I knew Goblin Town lay somewhere deeper in the mountain range. For my little hobbit looking eastward across the fog-enshrouded peaks, there was a delicious sense of mystery and anticipation of discovery. Now I look at the map and know exactly the contours of what lies ahead. That there's apparently a great goblin camp on the plateau, that the mountains in the South are the Giant Mountains (which I hadn't even knew existed previously).

LOTRO now feels completely different, and I'm going to stop now before I get to Moria, in the hopes that the devs will change their minds (or solve the technical issues) and patch back in an option for FOW. I've heard Moria is one of the most spectacular regions in the game, but the prospect of crossing the Doors of Durin and immediately seeing the entire layout of Khazad-Dum before me would rob the experience of much of the pleasure I've gained from LOTRO so far.

So while coming late to the party (so to speak), this is a request to the developers to please, please rethink the decision to remove FOW entirely. I have money I'm ready to spend on Turbine (:>), but I'm going to wait on the sidelines and try other games in the hopes of coming back in a few months (or 6 or more :< :<) and find that the thrill of first time exploration is back.

Chris

I'd really appreciate a toggle option for the fog of war, if the coding of that is at all possible. I understand that it can get really annoying to do on many characters (clearing the maps, I mean), but I'd like to at least try it out (I came too late to ever see the lotro fog of war in action).

They should just let the fog of war in all open areas to be able to explore if you want and if you want to have the whole map, there should a map you can buy.

Originally Posted by Chrilgo

Initially I was profoundly disappointed, as exploring and uncovering the world was one of the activities I most enjoyed in LOTRO. The exploration of new vistas (in a world I've read about since a child) has brought me some of the best gaming moments in 25+ years of PC gaming. So I've tried to forge ahead by first, not using the map, and then when that proved extremely difficult in new areas, to only focus on the map region I'm in and trying to ignore the rest of the screen.

There are passages in LoTR where some of the characters discuss having checked maps of where they plan to go, so there it is reasonable to assume that our characters have maps available to them, at least to the extent that one sees without FoW.

In the FoW system, it was silly anyway. Step into a new map segment and all terrain is instantly revealed. All the removeal does is reveal the areas you haven't gotten to. The difference is really minor.

In addition, it is trivially easy to determine if you have been to a stable or explored a given area. If you haven't been there, there won't be any PoI flags.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

In addition, it is trivially easy to determine if you have been to a stable or explored a given area. If you haven't been there, there won't be any PoI flags.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Well even if I agree with you on the point that you can see where you have been by looking at the PoI flags it´s still annoying when you don´t want to know what lies ahead. Part of the adveture is to explore Middle-Earth and be astonished by the beauty you can find there and not get the experience ruined before you´ve even had a chance to explore without a map :P. They should at least have a toggle button for toggeling the FOW.

Originally Posted by lauranan

Well even if I agree with you on the point that you can see where you have been by looking at the PoI flags it´s still annoying when you don´t want to know what lies ahead. Part of the adveture is to explore Middle-Earth and be astonished by the beauty you can find there and not get the experience ruined before you´ve even had a chance to explore without a map :P. They should at least have a toggle button for toggeling the FOW.

Umm... Looking at the map won't spoil seeing the beauty of the landscape any more that looking at a street map will prepare you for looking at historic buildings or scenery in a modern city. The map is not the territory....and a virtual map is not the virtual territory.

As I understand it--and some experiences in game agree--Turbine had trouble with the FoW system. There were places it didn't work very well and occasionally a change would reset it in some areas. One would surmise that they decided that removing a a flaky system was less work (cheaper) than trying to fix it, and they were probably right.

If you don't want to see the territory you're getting into, then don't open the map.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

Umm... Looking at the map won't spoil seeing the beauty of the landscape any more that looking at a street map will prepare you for looking at historic buildings or scenery in a modern city. The map is not the territory....and a virtual map is not the virtual territory.

As I understand it--and some experiences in game agree--Turbine had trouble with the FoW system. There were places it didn't work very well and occasionally a change would reset it in some areas. One would surmise that they decided that removing a a flaky system was less work (cheaper) than trying to fix it, and they were probably right.

If you don't want to see the territory you're getting into, then don't open the map.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

I very rarely disagree with you but I have to now. I really enjoyed the Fog of War. It was a big deal to me because I enjoyed opening up new lands. I was sad to see it go. I LOVE maps.

I feel the same way about Fog of War that I do about the quest tracker. At least I can toggle that.

/signed for a toggle for FoW.

Originally Posted by whheydt

Umm... Looking at the map won't spoil seeing the beauty of the landscape any more that looking at a street map will prepare you for looking at historic buildings or scenery in a modern city. The map is not the territory....and a virtual map is not the virtual territory.

As I understand it--and some experiences in game agree--Turbine had trouble with the FoW system. There were places it didn't work very well and occasionally a change would reset it in some areas. One would surmise that they decided that removing a a flaky system was less work (cheaper) than trying to fix it, and they were probably right.

If you don't want to see the territory you're getting into, then don't open the map.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Well alright you´re right that it won´t spoil the ladscape, but if you don´t wanna know where everything is in the new area then the FOW is a good thing. And yes you can avoid opening the map but if you want to see where you´ve been or where the closest stable is or city or whatever then it is a good tool.

And if Turbine indeed have problems with the system then they could atleast have so that you have to buy maps or something similar to open up PARTS of the map so you would have to buy multiple maps to open up the whole area. This way you could decide not to open up an area before you´ve been there and then if the maps are made so that you´ll have to use them to see the map much better because then you can buy all the maps but not use them before you have traveled to the area that the map will reveal. This could ofcorce be a trouble to implement but it would be a little more realistic than the fact that you just travel to a new area and like magic you get a map over the area.

I would love to have the Fog or war back. I liked not knowing where the stable masters were. (I did not like the addition of the quest tracker either but that is a separate thread. hehe)

But I also agree that instance maps should stay visable after I leave the thing. Not turn black once more. How many times did I run the Rift? GB? and god knows other cave structures. You would think I would be able to map those places out like I do the landscape.

If I had a vote I would say:

1) Bring back the old FOW landscape maps. Require some exploration to open the map up.

2) Let instance maps stay visible once you have run them.

I really miss the old FoW. True, it was never as fine-grained as would have been nice, but it was still enough to get a sense of where we had and hadn't been, and to keep some mystery about the areas we hadn't reached yet. It was enough to create a sense of exploration and accomplishment as we gradually opened up more and more areas. I can still remember when I first discovered Esteldin. It really did feel like the hidden fortress that it's supposed to be. Now there's nothing hidden about it at all, and it's just another regular city.

Regardless of their reasons for removing it, I know that adding FoW back in after such a long absence would be problematic. Turbine presumably wouldn't have any FoW data regarding where we've been since it was removed. (They might possibly even have purged the data of where we'd already been before it was removed, and no longer have that.) So if a FoW option was put back now, we'd have to re-explore all the regions we've been to since it was removed. (That's the main reason why, if it were added back, it would need to be optional, though it didn't need an option before.) Even if they've lost the old data, and adding FoW back in required us to re-explore every region, it would still be good as an option, since that would be a minor problem for new characters who haven't been very far yet, and would allow at least new players or players with new characters to regain some of the sense of wonder that the game lost when all the maps were revealed.


I agree with the OP about the crafting hall, though. FoW was great on the landscape maps when it existed, and it's good for "dungeon" instances, but does a crafting hall really need a fogged out map? It seems they took it out where it was useful and put it in where it isn't.

Originally Posted by Maxal

But I also agree that instance maps should stay visable after I leave the thing. Not turn black once more. How many times did I run the Rift? GB? and god knows other cave structures. You would think I would be able to map those places out like I do the landscape.

It is an architecture and design decision. At this stage of the game, it is most likely costly to start over from scratch.

What Turbine did is create a small instance map space in our client. A map is copied into that space with the Fog Of War active. As we explore the FOW is cleared. When we enter a new instance, the software copies the new map in with the FOW up if there is space. Otherwise, the oldest map is deleted making the entire FOW active again for the map that was removed.

One way to think of it is that our characters have a few sheets of paper to map with. When we use all the sheets up. We have to erase an existing map to start over.

Originally Posted by whheydt

There are passages in LoTR where some of the characters discuss having checked maps of where they plan to go, so there it is reasonable to assume that our characters have maps available to them, at least to the extent that one sees without FoW.

In the FoW system, it was silly anyway. Step into a new map segment and all terrain is instantly revealed. All the removeal does is reveal the areas you haven't gotten to. The difference is really minor.

In addition, it is trivially easy to determine if you have been to a stable or explored a given area. If you haven't been there, there won't be any PoI flags.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

I don't recall the exact sections you're referencing, but certainly the maps available to the hobbits were sketchy outlines that grew ever more vague the further one went beyond Bree. Heck, they needed Strider to help them when they left the main road to navigate across the Midgewater Marshes! They had no clue how to reach Rivendell, had only heard tales of it from Bilbo. The idea that the typical adventurer in TA 3019 set forth from Archet, Hobbiton or Thorin's Hall with full-color maps of Angmar, Moria and Lothlorien is pretty unlikely :>.

There's simply no justification for the current FOW within the fiction of Tolkien's world. On the other hand, I could definitely see buying maps from merchants once we've explored deep into a region (a map of Lothlorien from the elves once you've been accepted past the borders, or one of Rivendell once you've gained the favor of Elrond).

Originally Posted by whheydt

Umm... Looking at the map won't spoil seeing the beauty of the landscape any more that looking at a street map will prepare you for looking at historic buildings or scenery in a modern city. The map is not the territory....and a virtual map is not the virtual territory.

As I understand it--and some experiences in game agree--Turbine had trouble with the FoW system. There were places it didn't work very well and occasionally a change would reset it in some areas. One would surmise that they decided that removing a a flaky system was less work (cheaper) than trying to fix it, and they were probably right.

If you don't want to see the territory you're getting into, then don't open the map.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Here I just completely (and respectfully) disagree. Imagine the difference between exploring central Washington D.C. for the first time without a map. You round a corner and there's the Jefferson Memorial. As you push onwards, in the far distance you see the Capitol Building for the first time. The White House is a surprise as you push into the streets away from the main axis. You've heard tales of the largest office building in the world (called "a Pentagon"?), but have only vague ideas of where it might be found.

Now imagine exploring Washington D.C. with a street map in your hand as you arrive on the outskirts of the city. Yes the sight of the Jefferson Monument can still be impressive, but it's an entirely different experience when you already have a mental map of exactly everything that does or does not lie ahead. You're checking off boxes and lacking the element of surprise and mystery. A totally different experience.

Coming back to Tolkien's world, I'm thinking particularly of places like Moria and Lothlorien. I haven't journeyed to these locations yet in my time in LOTRO, and for my hobbit Burglar from the Shire, the idea that I already possess detailed maps of those regions just doesn't make any sense.

Chris

One last point in favor of restoring some form of FOW (if only as an option):

There will be (hopefully) be a significant number of new players who might be checking out LOTRO for the first time after the release of the two Hobbit films. There are a number of potential customers who were too young when LOTRO first came out, or who have become interested in MMOs from other sources (WoW, SWTOR, etc). They'll be exploring Turbine's world for the first time, and the FOW can make a significant difference for their experience the first time through the world.

So if Turbine removed FOW out of concern for veteran players who didn't like having to reexplore the world with new alts, I hope they'll consider that there might be sound business arguments for restoring the "newbie" experience when a potential influx of interested subscribers show up in late 2012 and 2013.

Chris

One point was if they added FoW again then all are maps would have to be blank and we would have to re-explore our world.

That use to happen during the SoA days when they would add content and sometimes even do patches. I can not remeber how many times but it happened at least enough times for me to remember it.

Yeah I remember trying to find Est and it was cool. But the best done was the frozen north with the stable masters and population centers so spread out. Having to find those locations was real work which was cool.

I would gladly explore the zones once more if FoW was added once again. I would not even complain. But then again I only run 6 ~ 8 toons where some folks run 20. they may not be happy at all.

Originally Posted by Maxal

One point was if they added FoW again then all are maps would have to be blank and we would have to re-explore our world.

That use to happen during the SoA days when they would add content and sometimes even do patches. I can not remeber how many times but it happened at least enough times for me to remember it.

That problem occurred a couple of times with Evendim...and a real annoyance it was, too.

I would gladly explore the zones once more if FoW was added once again. I would not even complain. But then again I only run 6 ~ 8 toons where some folks run 20. they may not be happy at all.

I suspect you may have a minority opinion, there. (This is not to say that your opinion is in any way invalid, but only that I think such a change would annoy a lot more people than it would please.)

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Chrilgo

One last point in favor of restoring some form of FOW (if only as an option):

There will be (hopefully) be a significant number of new players who might be checking out LOTRO for the first time after the release of the two Hobbit films. There are a number of potential customers who were too young when LOTRO first came out, or who have become interested in MMOs from other sources (WoW, SWTOR, etc). They'll be exploring Turbine's world for the first time, and the FOW can make a significant difference for their experience the first time through the world.

I don't think it would work that way. For new players, the lack of FoW would simply be the way the game works. While a few might wish--and even express that wish--that there were FoW, most would simply accept it as the way the game works.

If it comes to that, as players, we have access to maps from various sources, so the presence or absence of FoW really has minimal impact on new or current players.

So if Turbine removed FOW out of concern for veteran players who didn't like having to reexplore the world with new alts, I hope they'll consider that there might be sound business arguments for restoring the "newbie" experience when a potential influx of interested subscribers show up in late 2012 and 2013.

It is very unlikely that Turbine made the change for either veteran or new players. It is probable that it was an internal decision strictly for internal reasons--things like having trouble making it work correctly (e.g. parts of Mirkwood) or the FoW getting reset during updates (e.g. Evendim). Turbine may well have decided that it was more trouble--to them--than it was worth to go through the time and effort to code for it and fixing it in older areas wasn't worth the effort and ripping it out altogether was the simpler solution.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

I have to say I find the Fog of War inside crafting halls and places like Elrond's Library really silly. I'm not sure why these places are apparently instanced, but then I'm no programmer. I'd like it if the Fog of War could be removed from any and all inherently safe places, crafting halls especially.

As to whether the Fog of War was better when it existed, well, I did play then, and it did do some goofy things. It was possible to stand in an undiscovered area, very much so in fact. Does the game suffer for its demise? Maybe. It was a tiny little thrill to find out, bam, that's Weathertop. On the other hand, the only reason I have ever found the Wardspire was because I ran around exploring despite having the map filled for the area (though obviously not all the points of interest).

So FoW in town, please remove! On the map, eh, toggle sounds mighty complicated and I was rather glad to have had my full maps, especially in Moria (no offense Chris).

Originally Posted by MathKnight

I have to say I find the Fog of War inside crafting halls and places like Elrond's Library really silly. I'm not sure why these places are apparently instanced, but then I'm no programmer. I'd like it if the Fog of War could be removed from any and all inherently safe places, crafting halls especially.

While I agree that it's pretty silly in the places you cite, it may not be that simple. The code may simply hold that, if you are in an instance, instance rules apply and that gives you FoW in Elrond's Library. If people were willing to give up FoW in *all* instances (unlikely in view of threads like this one), then it might be feasible to remove it. Removing it selectively may be a much more complex process, if only by designating two types in instances--one with FoW and one without--and then going back through EVERY instance in the game to decide which ones get to be which type AND making non-FoW loadable maps for the non-FoW instances.

A more productive use of dev time would probably be to make maps for places like the Pit of Iron.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Whilst I personally, given the option, would choose to toggle the FoW on, from what I understand the mechanic has been more trouble for Turbine than it was worth to keep.

Something about maps resetting themselves and stuff, although I wasn't really around long enough to experience it.

I don't see them going back to reintroduce it, to be frank.

Real shame. I loved Fog of War


What a great way to see where you been

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

It is an architecture and design decision. At this stage of the game, it is most likely costly to start over from scratch.

What Turbine did is create a small instance map space in our client. A map is copied into that space with the Fog Of War active. As we explore the FOW is cleared. When we enter a new instance, the software copies the new map in with the FOW up if there is space. Otherwise, the oldest map is deleted making the entire FOW active again for the map that was removed.

One way to think of it is that our characters have a few sheets of paper to map with. When we use all the sheets up. We have to erase an existing map to start over.

I don't see where this setup would require significant changes to give players what they want. The cache holds the instance map and the map UI pulls the map from this cache and draws a FoW layer on top of it. Just remove the drawing of the FoW if the underlying map comes from the instance map cache (or the map is tagged with a isInstanceMap flag).

Turbine should bring back FoW for open world maps and remove it for instance maps. FoW does not only make exploring more interesting but it is also a nice and effective bookmarking mechanism for your more rarely played alts which makes it easy to see which areas you've already visited and which you should still visit when you come back after a longer time to play with that alt again.

It also wouldn't hurt to improve dungeon and raid maps so that they show where bosses are located. I swear that 95% of all PUGs which run through Carn Dum miss > 50% of the bosses there and do not even know how many bosses this instance has because there is no in-game mechanism that would clearly show that information.

Bringing back FoW in the open world shouldn't be a big deal. One simple option would be to look at the level of a toon. All areas with a maximum level <= toon level would stay clear while all areas with a minimum level > toon level would be recovered with FoW. Obviously this wouldn't be a perfect solution since a lower level toon may have visited a higher level area, but I do not think that this is a common enough occurrence that it warrants to lose sleep over this.