Thread: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

Originally Posted by Evebel

[...] I make the hearty fields, and still average only 6-7 crops per field [...]

I just wanted to confirm your numbers. I ran 200 samples of the Hearty Black Barley fields over the weekend and my average came out pretty darned close to 6.5 crops / field. 2 runs of 100 fields at 6.66 & 6.56 avg.

Originally Posted by Galaxiana

Everyone needs to /bug this in-game. If you think you'll forget, then do it now from here in the forums. Obviously the devs are not reading this forum, or one of them would have chimed in by now, so let's make SURE they're aware of the problem, because it's almost certain, given the RoI Crafting Dev Diary, that this is not what was intended.

If you don't know how to report a bug, here's the link:

http://forums.lotro.com/new_bug.php?

I too cannot believe this is how the system was intended to work. And, since we haven't heard a peep out of the Developers or Moderators on this issue, I'm going to go ahead and bug it per your suggestion.

If they simply return us to the previous 1:4 output ratio then most everything in the Crafting Developer Diary (strictly regarding farming) becomes true.* Left at 1:1 the information about farming in the Crafting Developer Diary is patently false and easily disproved. QED.

*providing the player is willing to accept the staggering increase in component prices from t6 to t7 (between 1100% and 5900% for the Hearty seeds)**

**personally, I find the new prices exorbitant, ridiculous and prohibitively high.

You make a compelling argument.

If we were returned to the previous 4:1 ratio, farmers would be very happy, and all of the dev diary claims would be absolutely true. Even farmers making the regular, non-hearty, non-crit fields would find their time shortened, due to the new "bulk" processing.

Previously, we were getting about 5 crops per field (I'm going to take your word for this, I didn't test it). So to get 400 produce, you had to plant 20 fields, then "process" 100 crops at the workbench, individually (100 processes). Yes, you could go afk for that part, but it really did take a very long time.

Old system for 400 barley yield:
Fields: 20
Workbench processes: 100

Under the current system, you need to plant about 114 regular, non-hearty, non-crit fields, then "process" 400 crops at the workbench in batches of 5 (80 processes). I think it's obvious to everyone that saving 20 workbench processes doesn't even begin to make up for needing to plant almost 6 times as many fields.

Current RoI system for 400 barley yield (non-hearty fields):
Fields: 114
Workbench processes: 80

Current RoI system for 400 barley yield (hearty fields):
Fields: 62
Workbench processes: 80

However, if we got the 1:4 ratio back, you would only need to plant 29 fields, then furthermore you would need only 20 (yes, 20) bulk processes at the workbench. It means planting 9 more fields than before, but saving 80 processes at the workbench. Even considering that planting/harvesting fields takes ~20 seconds and a workbench process is about half of that, you come out ahead there.

1:4 RoI system for 400 barley yield (non-hearty fields):
Fields: 29
Workbench processes: 20

And for the person willing to pay the much higher prices for hearty fields, the time saved is even more (as it should be).

1:4 RoI system for 400 barley yield (hearty fields):
Fields: 16
Workbench processes: 20

When looking at the above, it does seem clear that when Turbine promised us improved efficiency, they really did intend to keep the 1:4 ratio. Otherwise, their dev diary does not make sense. I keep hoping we will be proved correct. Bug report this, please!

Originally Posted by Evebel

You make a compelling argument.

Thanks, I just wanted to take the time to add a couple details.

Originally Posted by Evebel

Previously, we were getting about 5 crops per field (I'm going to take your word for this, I didn't test it).

And, for the record, neither did I. The 5 number is an anecdotal number. Garnered from years of estimating crop yields. I've been using 5 in my crop predictions and they come out pretty closely.

However, since they only changed Tier 7 and have left the previous tiers alone (as far as we know) I will run some numbers tonight (or whenever I have a chance - ALCS game 2 tonight) in hopes of confirming my estimate. I should have done this before now - just never really needed to. I stand by my 5 crops / field number but will honestly report anything my "research" turns up.

Originally Posted by Evebel

[...] it does seem clear that when Turbine promised us improved efficiency, they really did intend to keep the 1:4 ratio. Otherwise, their dev diary does not make sense.

Agree entirely. To be honest when I first started writing that post this morning I was thinking that the 1:1 was working exactly as Turbine intended it to. I was going to post something that said "It stinks, but it's probably on purpose." Then it occurred to me that changing that one detail (from 1:1 to 1:4) suddenly makes everything in the Crafting Developer Diary true (in regards to Farming)! I kinda convinced myself that this must be a bug.

I have one last nit-pick for you - not with your post, with Turbine's new and improved version of Farming.

We have a new bulk recipe - process five crops at once. So that's five times better than the regular one-at-a-time recipe, right? Well, it would be if both processes take exactly the same length of time to perform. So, do they? Well, I got a stopwatch out and timed ten iterations of each process, divided overall time elapsed by ten and got...

Time to process 1 crop with the one-at-a-time recipe: 7 seconds
Time to process 5 crops with the five-at-a-time recipe: 10 seconds

Well that's not much different. So, basically, it would take you 35 seconds to process 5 crops using the one-at-a-time recipe whereas it would take only 10 seconds using the five-at-a-time recipe. So no, the new recipe isn't 5 times better, it's 3.5 times better.

I know it's a minor quibble. But I felt it was important to establish numbers on these recipes in case the response to the 1:1 ratio is that we have the new five-at-a-time recipe to compensate for it - which, it doesn't. (as you've already demonstrated)

Originally Posted by Evebel

Bug report this, please!

Count on it.

Originally Posted by TheREALify

Thanks, I just wanted to take the time to add a couple details.



And, for the record, neither did I. The 5 number is an anecdotal number. Garnered from years of estimating crop yields. I've been using 5 in my crop predictions and they come out pretty closely.

However, since they only changed Tier 7 and have left the previous tiers alone (as far as we know) I will run some numbers tonight (or whenever I have a chance - ALCS game 2 tonight) in hopes of confirming my estimate. I should have done this before now - just never really needed to. I stand by my 5 crops / field number but will honestly report anything my "research" turns up.

While you are running numbers anyway, do you mind timing the previous tiers as well?

In my head, I've been estimating 17 seconds to farm a field (assuming the best farming tools), 3 seconds to harvest - 20 seconds in all for each field. And 10 seconds to process each crop (or batch of five) at the workbench.
It would be very useful to know the exact numbers.

Specifically, you noted it was 7 seconds to process 1 crop in tier 7 when you do it individually.
Did Turbine speed that one up as a bonus to us, and are the previous 1:4 tiers all 10 seconds each?
Or was 7 seconds the "standard" workbench time, and did Turbine actually increase the time of the "bulk" process in RoI?

Originally Posted by Evebel

While you are running numbers anyway, do you mind timing the previous tiers as well?

Nope, not at all.

Originally Posted by Evebel

Specifically, you noted it was 7 seconds to process 1 crop in tier 7 when you do it individually.
Did Turbine speed that one up as a bonus to us, and are the previous 1:4 tiers all 10 seconds each?
Or was 7 seconds the "standard" workbench time, and did Turbine actually increase the time of the "bulk" process in RoI?

Actually, I thought processing crops at the workbench used to take 6 seconds across the board. But again, I have nothing but anecdotal data to back that up. I'll break out the stop watch tonight and see what we come up with.

NOTE: not going to promise any results right away - as noted it's ALCS game two tonight. And I will be watchin'! Of course, sports is somewhat conducive to farming...

1. <click> plant field - watch game
2. <click> harvest field - watch game
3. go to step 1 - watch game

So I'm getting about 6.4-6.5 crops per hearty field (333 crops from 51 hearty fields and 1 normal field)
I'm also getting a ~40% crit rate on herbs (21 herbs) and ~20% on soil (11 soils). All fields "normal" tended. Still leveling up my farmer.

If herbs sell on AH for 2x their vendorable price (10.4s each) you make up for any added cost of hearty seed from 30% extra yield and the herbs together. Considering that T7 ingredients will be costly b/c so much time is spent farming them, I imagine the herbs will go for substantially more than 2x.

Which brings me to my major question for Turbine: who in their right mind would plant a normal field?

It's time for me to issue some retractions, make some clarifications and eat a little crow.

Originally Posted by TheREALify

For me the magic number was 5.

Originally Posted by TheREALify

And, for the record, neither did I [confirm my estimate with research]. The 5 number is an anecdotal number. Garnered from years of estimating crop yields. I've been using 5 in my crop predictions and they come out pretty closely.

However, since they only changed Tier 7 and have left the previous tiers alone (as far as we know) I will run some numbers tonight [...] in hopes of confirming my estimate. I should have done this before now - just never really needed to. I stand by my 5 crops / field number but will honestly report anything my "research" turns up.

Strike one! I went ahead and tried to establish this number. I only got through 2 runs of 100 Well-tended Mint Fields (Tier 6). I harvested 609 Fair Black Barley Crops the first time and 624 the second. Add them together, divide by 200 and you get an average of 6.165. After 200 samples it looks like my estimate was wrong. It appears the average crop per field yield is closer to 6. More samples are needed.

Originally Posted by TheREALify

Actually, I thought processing crops at the workbench used to take 6 seconds across the board.

Strike two! Wasn't even close (I think I was thinking of something else).

In any event, I was able to take samples from every tier of farming and time the different processes: Planting, Harvesting and Processing (at the workbench). The results are pretty uniform. Both Planting and Harvesting are the same across all 7 Tiers of Farming. It takes 20 seconds to Plant a field and it takes 7 seconds to Harvest a field. The Harvesting time can be reduced to 4 seconds depending on the tools used.

Processing is where the difference lies but only because there are two methods (one-at-a-time and five-at-a time) to process crops at Tier 7. It takes 10 seconds (not 6) to process 1 crop at the workbench for Tiers 1 - 6 & Tier 7 five-at-a-time version! So, if you use the five-at-a-time recipe it does, in fact, take exactly the same length of time that all other tiers take to process just 1 crop! The only exception to this is Tier 7 - one-at-a-time which only takes 7 seconds to process. To summarize:

Tiers 1-7 Planting: 20 Seconds
Tiers 1-7 Harvesting: 7 Seconds (can be reduced to 4 Seconds)
Tiers 1-6 & Tier 7 (5x) Processing: 10 Seconds
Tier 7 (1x) Processing: 7 Seconds

So, to answer your question...

Originally Posted by Evebel

Specifically, you noted it was 7 seconds to process 1 crop in tier 7 when you do it individually.
Did Turbine speed that one up as a bonus to us, and are the previous 1:4 tiers all 10 seconds each?
Or was 7 seconds the "standard" workbench time, and did Turbine actually increase the time of the "bulk" process in RoI?

Looks like the former and not the latter - Turbine really did speed that one up as a bonus to us. And the five-at-a-time workbench recipes are five times better than processing in the previous 6 tiers.

Still though, no matter how much time might be saved with the five-at-a-time recipe it does nothing to negate the four fold increase in time spent planting and harvesting in the field.

I still believe this must be a bug and the correct conversion rate is supposed to be 1:4 at the workbench. If that were the case then the words in the Crafting Developer Diary ring true and Farming is suddenly a much happier place to be.

Originally Posted by valdoria2

So I'm getting about 6.4-6.5 crops per hearty field (333 crops from 51 hearty fields and 1 normal field)
I'm also getting a ~40% crit rate on herbs (21 herbs) and ~20% on soil (11 soils). All fields "normal" tended. Still leveling up my farmer.

If herbs sell on AH for 2x their vendorable price (10.4s each) you make up for any added cost of hearty seed from 30% extra yield and the herbs together. Considering that T7 ingredients will be costly b/c so much time is spent farming them, I imagine the herbs will go for substantially more than 2x.

Which brings me to my major question for Turbine: who in their right mind would plant a normal field?

That's rather a disparaging question, isn't it? Anyone who disagrees with your opinion isn't in their right mind? That doesn't seem fair.

I make normal fields all the time and I'm in my right mind. I have no intention of selling the soil and herbs. Those will be stockpiled and used in furtherance of my own crafting. Besides, I'd be surprised if the market supports those prices for long. There's not much of a market for any of the other tiers of farming crit items that I'm aware of. But then, I've never bought cooking crit items from the Auction Hall myself. I figured most crafters just make that sort of stuff for themselves if they want it. Maybe that's just me.

Finally, I just don't like the 5900% price increase in seeds. It seems unnecessarily exorbitant to me. Just the seeds alone to produce 100 fields went from 20 silver to 1 gold and 200 silver. I just don't see the sense in that enormous an increase. Plus, as it stands, we'll be spending 4 times as much on seeds till they correct the 1:1 ratio bug (still hoping it's a bug).

I think there's plenty of good reasons to make a variety of fields and not strictly one or the other. It just depends on one's goals.

TheREALify, thank you very much for the time and effort you put into getting these figures for me. I'm going to shamelessly make use of your hard work in order to explain, in painstaking detail (in case anyone reading this is still unconvinced), why farmers are crying foul in RoI.

In the following examples we will be comparing growing 400 winter barley in the old system using a 1:4 ratio, to 400 black barley with the "new improved" 1:1 ratio and bulk processing. I will compare to both "regular" T7 fields, and "hearty" T7 fields. I am not going to bother with the crit soil for any of these examples, since I have shown in previous posts that this actually makes the time increase worse, instead of better. I'm also not going to touch on the cost issue, except to say that farming is more expensive in RoI, and planting the hearty fields, much, much more expensive.

400 Winter Barley
27 seconds to plant and harvest a field, 6 average crops per field, 10 seconds to process 1 crop at the workbench, with a 1:4 yield ratio
Fields needed: 17
Time planting/harvesting: 459 seconds
Workbench processes: 100
Time at the workbench: 1,000 seconds
---> Total time to produce 400 Winter Barley with the old system: 1,459 seconds <----

This is what we were used to. Now let's see how Turbine "improved" farming in RoI. Remember, that was supposed to be the whole point of introducing "bulk" processing!

400 Black Barley in RoI, regular fields
27 seconds to plant and harvest a field, 3.5 average crops per field, 10 seconds to process 5 crops at the workbench, with a 1:1 yield ratio
Fields needed: 115
Time planting/harvesting: 3,105 seconds
Workbench processes: 80
Time at the workbench: 800 seconds
Total time to produce 400 Black Barley with regular fields and bulk processing: 3,905 seconds

Ouch. That doesn't look improved, does it? Well, how about those hearty fields? We know they are better than regular T7 fields, but are they an improvement over the old system?

400 Black Barley in RoI, hearty fields
27 seconds to plant and harvest a field, 6.5 average crops per field, 10 seconds to process 5 crops at the workbench, with a 1:1 yield ratio
Fields needed: 62
Time planting/harvesting: 1,674 seconds
Workbench processes: 80
Time at the workbench: 800 seconds
Total time to produce 400 Black Barley with hearty fields and bulk processing: 2,474 seconds

As you can see from the above, farming in RoI is much worse than previously. Turbine's claim that they were going to improve our efficiency and production is absolutely untrue.

Originally Posted by TheREALify

And the five-at-a-time workbench recipes are five times better than processing in the previous 6 tiers.

This is a common thought, but it's not correct. Look at the above examples. Time at the workbench making 400 winter barley: 1,000 seconds. Time at the workbench making 400 black barley with "bulk" processing: 800 seconds. We are not 5x as efficient at the workbench as before. We are 25% faster. Before, we were able to make 4 barley every 10 seconds, and now we can make 5. Due to the 1:4 ratio fallling to 1:1, our shiny new "bulk" processing is really only a fraction faster than before.

No matter WHAT you do in RoI, farming is going to take a lot longer. There is no shortcut, no special seed, soil or farming tool, that can prevent this. "Bulk" farming is a lie that saves only 20% of workbench time while the 1:1 ratio forces us to farm 3 to 7 times as many fields as before. The above examples are crystal clear: farmers have been severely punished in this expansion.

However, all this could be quickly and easily fixed by changing the ratio back to 1:4. As you explained in your previous post quite well, all of Turbine's promises about improving our production and efficiency would then be TRUE. I'll illustrate.

400 Black Barley, regular fields
27 seconds to plant and harvest a field, 3.5 average crops per field, 10 seconds to process 5 crops at the workbench, with a proposed 1:4 yield ratio
Fields needed: 29
Time planting/harvesting: 783 seconds
Workbench processes: 20
Time at the workbench: 200 seconds
Total time to produce 400 Black Barley with regular fields and bulk processing: 983 seconds

A clear time savings from T1-T6. And now for the more expensive, hearty fields:

400 Black Barley, hearty fields
27 seconds to plant and harvest a field, 6.5 average crops per field, 10 seconds to process 5 crops at the workbench, with a proposed 1:4 yield ratio
Fields needed: 16
Time planting/harvesting: 432 seconds
Workbench processes: 20
Time at the workbench: 200 seconds
Total time to produce 400 Black Barley with regular fields and bulk processing: 632 seconds

With all of this effort, I want to make one thing perfectly clear. Farmers aren't whining because farming got harder in RoI. A lot of things change with expansions, and most of us expect that and try to take the changes in stride. The source of our disappointment and frustration is that farming was made quite a bit harder after Turbine specifically stated they were going to make it better. Either they knew that was false and were just trying to trick us into thinking we were getting an improvement (which is demonstrably untrue and insulting to boot), or they goofed. I keep hoping, like I'm sure you do, that they just goofed.

And I really hope we are not wasting our time with these detailed examples, and asking again that Turbine take an honest look at the issue and fix our profession!

Originally Posted by Evebel

TheREALify, thank you very much for the time and effort you put into getting these figures for me.

You're welcome!

Originally Posted by Evebel

I'm going to shamelessly make use of your hard work in order to explain, in painstaking detail (in case anyone reading this is still unconvinced), why farmers are crying foul in RoI.

I thought that was the plan all along.

Originally Posted by Evebel

Originally Posted by TheREALify

And the five-at-a-time workbench recipes are five times better than processing in the previous 6 tiers.

This is a common thought, but it's not correct.

Minor quibble here again. When I said that, I was only comparing the five-at-a-time recipe with other processing recipes across the lower tiers. In this limited case the five-at-a-time recipe does represent a five fold improvement. However, when taken in the larger context of Farming as a whole, as I noted in the following paragraph, any time savings offered by the five-at-a-time is more than nullified by the 1:1 ratio. The time spent in the field planting and harvesting needed to compensate for the reduced 1:1 ratio is much greater than the amount of time saved by the five-at-a-time recipe.

However, I think you are aware of this. I think you were just trying to drive the point home as it were - that the five-at-a-time recipe does nothing to make up for the loss of productivity felt across the rest of the Farming profession. On that point I believe we agree wholeheartedly.

Apart from that I think you've hit the nail on the head. I approve of your post.

I'd also like to echo what you (Evebel) said about motivations. I'm not doing this as a complaint. I honestly believe that somewhere between the marketing and implementation of the Farming update something went haywire. I hope that with proper research and examples we can provide Turbine with the evidence they need to confirm and correct the mistake. I don't think there's a grand conspiracy at work. I think someone, like you said, just goofed.

Actually, I think they accidentally multiplied the seed prices by 4 while leaving the crop production at 1:1. I think it should have been the other way around. Crop production should be 4 times greater and seeds prices should be a quarter of their current cost. Maybe that's just me. I think I'm the only one who is unhappy about the seed prices at this point. I dunno, a 5900% price increase just seems a little over the top to me.

[b]Evebel[/i] thank you for taking the time to put the examples together. Good work! I hope someone takes notice of all this. I keep watching the Known Issues list - and I keep hoping to see Farming added to that list.

I guess now we just wait and see if we hear anything from the folks at Turbine...

Originally Posted by TheREALify

Minor quibble here again.

I had a feeling you were going to take issue with this. And the reason I keep harping on it is not, I swear, to pick a fight. I know you understand the problem already. I don't think Turbine does!

I think this misunderstanding is the very reason Turbine "goofed" farming in the first place.

If they really believe that workbench processing is five times as fast as it used to be, they could be reading our posts and going, "What are you complaining about? So you have to plant a few more fields? So what? Once you are done planting, you can get your finished produce lightning quick!"

However, as I showed in my examples above, workbench processing is not five times faster.

Making 5 barley every 10 seconds is not five times as fast as making 4 barley every 10 seconds. It's 25% faster.

And honestly, farmers would be thrilled with a 25% buff if that were the only thing going on here. But it's not.

The change from a 1:4 ratio to a 1:1 ratio hits farmers in two separate places. I emphasize this because I really don't think Turbine considered it. I think they considered only one of them.

First, there is the straight nerf to "bulk" processing. "Bulk" processing, on the face of it, was supposed to let us process our crops five times as fast as before. Before, we had to process crops 1 at a time. Now, we can do 5 at a time. However, before, that 1 crop, all by it's little lonesome, was producing 4 items. Now, with the 1:1 ratio fall, each crop is producing only 1 item. You can do 5 at a time with "bulk" processing, sure. But instead of making 20 items at a time, (which makes sense for a term like "bulk"), we're making only 5 at a time. Such a small net increase (going from 4 items every 10 seconds to 5 items every 10 seconds) seems to hardly warrant the term "bulk."

Secondly, those crops didn't fall from the sky. We had to grow them. And in order to bring them to the workbench, we had to farm four times as many as before. This is the second hit, and the one I think Turbine neglected to consider. Each crop making only 1 item means we have to farm four times as many crops before we even get them to the workbench!

So, it's a buff, followed by two nerfs. The net effect is still a nerf. And it seems obvious to me that Turbine didn't realize they were nerfing us twice.

Or perhaps they did. And perhaps "hearty" fields were supposed to make up the difference. If a "hearty" field produced a truly huge number of crops (say, four or five times as much as regular fields, to justify their price), we'd be coming out about even. A buff, followed by two nerfs, followed by a buff? Only, hearty fields don't produce a lot of crops. Oddly, they return about the same amount as the previous tier fields (6 in T1-T6, compared to 6.5 in T7). So there was no buff there at all.

Or, perhaps crit soil was supposed to be the second buff to make up the difference. Maybe it was supposed to generate a crazy number of additional crops. But it only gives a few extra...which would be ok, if the time needed to make the peat in the first place wasn't 20 seconds each. Since it is, making and using the crit soil is like a third nerf, costing you the same amount of time as planting a whole new field, while returning fewer crops.

This whole picture doesn't make sense. All the "bonuses" we were supposed to get fall flat and provide no real benefit at all. The advertised "bulk" processing heavily nerfed. "Hearty" fields generate the same number of crops as regular fields did before. Crit soil returns no extra crops for time invested. And underscoring all of this, the frustrating and time-draining need to plant four times as much as we did before.

Bah.

Presumably by now the farmers on the French realms have gone on strike and are currently barricading Hobbiton.

I want to thank the guys who have taken the time to do the painstaking research and math comparisons here. I think you've made the point very, very well - the proof hurdle has been accomplished. Now we need to address the next challenge: making sure someone at Turbine sees all this effort.

Unfortunately, because the OP chose a terrible title for this thread, the devs are probably not even bothering to read it. How can we get their attention directed to this matter, hopefully in time to make the upcoming patch-fix later this week (rather than having to wait until December? We probably got beat by the forum downtime, though. This is a post I have been trying to make for a week now.)

Does anybody know which dev handles the crafting code, specifically farming? Can we email or PM him somehow with a link to this thread? What can we do to draw attention to this issue?

The thread title may not have been the most diplomatic way of getting a dev’s attention, but then maybe it wasn’t intended rhetorically. That said, one would hope that any thread that’s at 4 pages and counting would hopefully push a button somewhere.

It can’t have taken the average farmer, even the mathematically challenged, more than 5 minutes to work out that she’d been nerfed by 75%, give or take, that the farming crit mat is specifically counterproductive (if I may borrow a term from Ivan Illich), that the “hearty crop” is a simple but inferior replacement for the “well-tended field” (at a greatly increased price) and that as a consequence farm product prices are set to break inflationary records.

All of which should incline those of a conspiracy-theory bent that the whole point of the exercise is to push cooks to the store. It’s enough to make an honest, liberal capitalist Anglo-Saxon think that the French have a point.

well after looking through tomorrows patch notes i see no mention of them fixing this issue.

*crosses fingers* maybe it will be one of those things that gets fixed but they forget to add to notes.

i sent a PM to Celestra about this issue asking if she could mention this thread to the crafting dev(s)over a week ago.

maybe someone else could send her a PM also about this.

Agree with others. Despite what was said Westfold farming takes MORE TIME.

PLEASE

Allow Westfold farming to produce multiple crops like the previous tiers.

The crop output isn't the only thing wrong with T7 farming, but the cost is much too high as well. When they did the change to make one type of seed for each tier of crafting and got rid of the poor crops, they also reduced seed cost. They seem to have gone back to the old style of expensive seeds for T7, even though it goes against their directly stated desire to reduce farming costs.

Hopefully that gets fixed when the crop output is also fixed. I know I'm refraining from any T7 farming at all, even though my little Hobbit Yeoman is getting anxious. I'll just keep making T6 food, because it's actually cost effective in time/silver.

I'm saddened to see that the concerns we've raised here in this thread have gone unaddressed in this most recent patch. I'm not the least bit surprised - just saddened.

- The prices for Westfold seeds haven't changed and are still 1100% and 5900% more expensive than seeds for all 6 previous tiers.

- The production ratio between crops and cook ingredients is still bugged at the 1:1 ratio. I say "bugged" because on it's own the 1:1 ratio renders everything about Farming in the Crafting Developer Diary untrue and demonstrably false.

Could someone at Turbine please take the time to address our concerns? Is this system working as intended or not? I choose not to believe that Turbine would willfully and wantonly misrepresent it's position in this case. I prefer to believe that it's a bug. Turbine, please prove me right. Or, if you prefer, kindly explain how a four fold increase in time spent farming could "increase harvest yields and improve production efficiency."

Thank you in advance for your prompt response.

Well, FWIW, I had the good fortune to be sitting online reading the forums yesterday when they posted the patch notes, so I got what I hope is a reasonably high-profile mention of our concerns as the OP of this thread here:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ut-RoI-Patch-1

I gave it a hopefully subtle bump this afternoon when another newer patch notes discussion thread threatened to supplant it (since mine had been buried overnight.) I think it's a very safe assumption that the devs are aware of the farming issue at this point, so any silence from them going forward is intentional for one reason or another.

Granted, they may need some time to discuss this internally and come to the realization that something, somewhere, went wrong, but there doesn't seem to be very many players interested in this matter so maybe our chances aren't so good...

I think we just need to keep bugging it every week, and encourage others to do so, too: kin-mates, other farmers we know, and even people you see on the farming fields raising t7 crops.

And if any devs do read this, PLEASE, can you at least confirm or deny that things are WAI for us, so we can move forward knowing where we stand? Thank you in advance.

Well, now that I just realized the forums are back, back to the issue at hand.

Originally Posted by Galaxiana

I want to thank the guys who have taken the time to do the painstaking research and math comparisons here. I think you've made the point very, very well - the proof hurdle has been accomplished. Now we need to address the next challenge: making sure someone at Turbine sees all this effort.

This pretty much sums it up. I'm frankly amazed that none of the Turbine staff have responded to this thread yet, especially with all the bug reports, PM's and 4 pages of angry farmers and counting. I don't think we need more attention-getters i.e. bug reports and PM's, they're probably bogged down with all of those anyways.

My petition is essentially the same as the poster above: If any devs read this, please please please give us a few words so that we know that this issue isn't being ignored.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Llandor

This pretty much sums it up. I'm frankly amazed that none of the Turbine staff have responded to this thread yet,

Unfortunately, Turbine very, very rarely responds to issue threads on the forums. They have basically one person (Sapience) who is the official point of contact, and it just isn't enough. So while this may actually be fixed one day, don't expect to ever hear about it being fixed prior to the patch.

I have to agree with ALL the above posters. What we have now is just....gross. A kinmate and I farm and cook (well, he cooks. My Westfold cook is level 46 and so rep gated ) several thousand pieces of food a week for personal use, kin, and sale. It takes me a VERY short amount of time to make enough Shire Apples for us both, and well over double that to make enough barley just for my own pies.

Not only are the T7 fields SO much more expensive, AND time consuming, they require a fair amount of travel. By this, I mean that if I were to want 4k Shire Apples, I would simply make 10 stacks of crops, and port to the 21st hall to be close to a mailbox and a workbench. That way, when my already full inventory filled completely, I could simply mail off the finished product to the cook and keep going. With the Black Barley, the same amount requires 40 stacks instead of 10(not to mention that 4k pies require 8k Black Barley...) so I end up processing some, mailing it, then going back and farming more. Several times over.

I'm unhappy. Every farmer I know(who actually farms) is unhappy. The price of food has risen, but not enough to cover our increased costs. It's like getting a 2% raise when the cost of living goes up by 30%. At the end of the day, I've spent more time in the fields and went home with less profit.



I'd also like to say thank you to those who invested the time into doing the maths. I hate doing maths.

The new "Known Issues" list does not include the farming fiasco, and it was certainly not fixed with the last patch. I really wish there was a way to get some official reaction to this. I have bugged it (the 1:1 ratio) several times in game.

At least they still have those emotes on the list of things to fix...

I started the new tier the other night, and was pleasantly surprised to see that I could process 5 fair leek crops at a time, but was utterly horrified that 1 fair leek crop = 1 bunch of leeks. I have 8 characters that will be getting to 75 in the next couple months, and I figured I would make each one of them a full stack of each resistance soup, like I did for the previous tier. I figured I'd have to farm 800 fair crops of leeks, but now, with this change, I have to farm 3200! This isn't going to happen. I am not wasting that much time for resistance soups. Also, I am not going to waste my time with trail or cooked food at tier 7. My characters will use whatever stores they have and then that's it.

The hearty fields are also awful. They cost way too much for the seeds, and don't give proportional results. I wouldn't mind paying extra for the seeds if they gave proprtional results. 5x the seed cosr must result in 5x the crop yield.

Farming/Cooking was already the longest, most time consuming, mind numbing grind in the game, and now it's even worse. The 1:1 ratio of crops to ingredients must be changed back to 1:4.

Are all the details in this thread the same, or are there changes to this situation?

Update please

Originally Posted by kris.kringle

Are all the details in this thread the same, or are there changes to this situation?

Update please

In what respect? Batch actions?

1-1 ratio instead of 1-4

6-7 crops per planting etc

I have to say the entire thread sounded like a lot of whining. Farming is the absolute easiest trade to do. Farm good are put on AH at high prices, and farmers have in the past had to spend no time at all to make 100 stacks. This is in comparison where you had to spend hours to gather wood / mine ore to work another trade.