Thread: Rise of Isengard: Warden Dev Diary Feedback

Solid changed all around. Not much else to say until I can test it within the context of the game.

Its good to see wardens are finally getting some bonus crit defense, although I though 4 fist was supposed to add more, did that not make the cut?

These changes all look interesting. I have one question I hope might be addressed, although I'm aware that we're down to the wire.

Is there any real reason some of these mechanics, such as the new gambits Deflection and Aggression or at least the potency/battle memory mechanic can't be added to the class earlier than 66+? I understand the need to have improved skills for players from 66 to 75, but these sound like core additions to Warden game play and it's a shame to deny Wardens who try their hand at tanking from 1-65 the chance to use them.

Even allowing Goad, Shield Bash and Deft Strike a flat 10% chance at triggering potency until the improved versions raise the rates to 25% would at least allow the fundamentals of potency and battle memory to be introduced to Wardens for what will amount to the majority of many player's game play experience.

never surrender seems a mite bit over powered... I see this one getting nerfed

I've left my feedback on these changes in many other threads, plus many others in the warden community have voiced them better than I have, so I just have two questions:

Will Skill and Power make ambush auto-crit when in careful step? I heard this will be the case but don't see it in the changes.

Have Fist morale leaches been improved, as originally planned, to make them useful in raid content?

Originally Posted by Fnar

Is there any real reason some of these mechanics, such as the new gambits Deflection and Aggression or at least the potency/battle memory mechanic can't be added to the class earlier than 66+?

Totally agree. I suspect what will happen is they'll be looked at again at a later update and re-leveled. As a general rule I don't think new skills (as opposed to upgraded ones) get introduced retrospectively levelwise.

Overall tho, I really like these changes and additions. My Warden won't be 65 for RoI launch so I suspect he'll have most of Mirkwood to himself whilst everyone's waging war in Dunland. Can't wait to get these changes under my fingers. Many thanks Orion.

Originally Posted by Maetho

My inner proofreader wonders if there is a reason you used the pronoun her in the mastery section instead of their

The reason is that there's no third person singular neuter pronoun in English. There's a trend of using the third person plural neuter pronoun in it's place, but a lot of people would consider that incorrect. He probably used "her" because using "his or her" all the time would be cumbersome.

Originally Posted by roysterer

The reason is that there's no third person singular neuter pronoun in English. There's a trend of using the third person plural neuter pronoun in it's place, but a lot of people would consider that incorrect. He probably used "her" because using "his or her" all the time would be cumbersome.

Could maybe replace it with "one's".

Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw

Could maybe replace it with "one's".

That's a thought, but I think it would be confusing because "one" is kind of a generalized third person. You can't say, "That person over there, one's hat is on fire." It sounds like you're talking about two people, one of them hypothetical. I feel like I should use the word subjunctive, but I'm not enough of a grammar nerd to handle it properly.

*edit* I am quite prepared to admit that I might have used "you" and "you're" improperly in this post.

I have to say I think Never Surrender will be OP when it's changed to a 120s lock out. I think the lock out should just be 1 minute, but the duration of the invincibility should be 3 minutes.

One thing I wouldve loved to see fixed on the threat side would be instant threat. Some gambit that would 'cash-in' all the threat over time in one go.

Say we put on WC, EoB and Goad, this gambit would cash in the threat it would generate over time(maybe with a CD?) and lose all the effects, so basically we would lose the morale drain, damage over time etc.. It would be very nice to have at the beginning of the fight. Maybe even give it a penalty after some time like -10% perceived threat 15s after using this gambit.

The overall changes in RoI are nice little additions, but again, I hoped for exciting trait changes and a revamp of the fist line. We all know... "I had no time" was BS. Saying there is no time and then revamping an entire class (minstrel) sucks EDIT: I am talking about fist line!

Interesting changes for sure, but reading all other diaries and feedback ... any reason why a raid leader after RoI should pick a warden as main tank instead of a guardian or a champion, beside adding some difficulty to easy encounters when needed? Because that's where the warden was lacking more, while solo and 3/6 men instances never were a problem. The more people you added to the team, the less the warden was useful - and I still see all new skills limited to fellowship instead of being pbaoe.

With this changes, how's the warden behaving in the coming dragon raid, in challenge mode? Is it of some use or it's just better to invite a guardian or a champion when available? In the end, new skills and mechanics are all nice on paper, but it's the field that decides... if all we get is a way more complicate playstyle with less results than same role classes, we're clearing going the wrong way...

Overall, the skill changes look good. And the previous question of whether drains will count as HoTs remains. Traiting Way of the Fist would be a whole lot more functional and desirable if the +HoT pulses worked on something that gave more than 36 morale per pulse (War Cry).

I have one glaring question. Are Warden stats being updated like other classes? Burglars now get to use Agility for their damage, eliminating the need for them to use Might for melee offence. Captains now get to use Might for tactical, eliminating the need for them to use Will for tactical offence (which is only 2 skills) and outgoing healing. Where is the love for the Warden? Our only AoEs are tactical and tactical is counter-productive to build for. You just lose too much in the way of Might and Agility to add even the tiniest bit of Will. At least give us a Spear or Shield-bash based melee AoE skill!

Originally Posted by Yma

Interesting changes for sure, but reading all other diaries and feedback ... any reason why a raid leader after RoI should pick a warden as main tank instead of a guardian or a champion, beside adding some difficulty to easy encounters when needed? Because that's where the warden was lacking more, while solo and 3/6 men instances never were a problem. The more people you added to the team, the less the warden was useful - and I still see all new skills limited to fellowship instead of being pbaoe.

With this changes, how's the warden behaving in the coming dragon raid, in challenge mode? Is it of some use or it's just better to invite a guardian or a champion when available? In the end, new skills and mechanics are all nice on paper, but it's the field that decides... if all we get is a way more complicate playstyle with less results than same role classes, we're clearing going the wrong way...

^ QFT.

How about our guardian friends? The way they achieve their sturdiness is by using a single skill, guardians ward. Not complicated. Need threat? no problem, dont need to keep up anything, can just go all out aggro next to guardians ward. Dont need to think about the 5 buffs ticking away while tank swapping, thinking how far behind you are getting on your sturdiness.

And out champion friends? Get below 20% morale, get a 25% heal, every 90 seconds! In trouble? Pop a 3000 morale shield. Need threat? leech a huge amount of the highest in the group!

I am of course oversimplifying things, but people will not make a choice based on thinking about for a long time, discussing etc. If a GRD or CHMP does the job and has a low chance of screwing it up, they get the spot and you as warden don't.

It's not the same in a raiding kin or alliance of course...

Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier

Overall, the skill changes look good. And the previous question of whether drains will count as HoTs remains. Traiting Way of the Fist would be a whole lot more functional and desirable if the +HoT pulses worked on something that gave more than 36 morale per pulse (War Cry).

I have one glaring question. Are Warden stats being updated like other classes? Burglars now get to use Agility for their damage, eliminating the need for them to use Might for melee offence. Captains now get to use Might for tactical, eliminating the need for them to use Will for tactical offence (which is only 2 skills) and outgoing healing. Where is the love for the Warden? Our only AoEs are tactical and tactical is counter-productive to build for. You just lose too much in the way of Might and Agility to add even the tiniest bit of Will. At least give us a Spear or Shield-bash based melee AoE skill!

Wardens will be Might-Based (Might as their Primary Stat) - that was stated in the Stats Dev Diary.

Originally Posted by AltariasEU

Positive:
1) You have very nicely fixed our tank swapping difficulties, I love the drop/raise aggro gambits, thanks!

2) The DPS added with the bleed removal is very nice, I thought it would be too low to notice, but I was very wrong

3) Power cost -10%? Great!!

Negative

1) Battle memory morale cost is very high, 5% would be 750 morale on a 15k morale pool... It would be nice to use in a DPS rotation where you dont need to look out for your morale that much, but it's too much IMO for tanking.

2) The stun immunity gambit does not sound so attractive, the duration is simply very short.

3) You say the DPS-rotation is boring... and you made it more boring? At least now I can choose in which order to apply my bleeds and or Onslaught, in RoI I have to follow a specific order to be effective? And what happens to my rotation when I miss my power attack? That's right, it's screwed!

4) Crit defense added(350,? come on!) on determination will not help, especially since we lost 1200 with the OD-set bonus.

5) Not a single exciting trait change... I mean I read the other dev diaries and there are some nice changes to traits, some new and good combinations to be made. I dont think I will change my traits that much.




I want to get excited for playing my warden in RoI with new tools for tanking, DPS (and maybe soloing). Im just not. I feel like the warden has been neglected (for a long time now), no month of the warden yet and very little effort put into the class when you see what other classes will get. A complete revamp for some, but no effort into fixing a single trait line for the warden.

The warden community is a great one, but I think we have been far too nice for our developers.

Precisely my overall thoughts. Personally, I'm mind-boggled by the overly ecstatic replies to this. This seems rather lazy, firstly the dev diary is just a slight reiteration of the preliminary changes outlined when Orion first talked about what 'might' be done. It seems it took five minutes to calculate 'solutions' to wardens overall problems, and they aren't all that great.

Abilities to pick up and drop threat aren't all this class needs, and again, it seems a lazy solution to just give them an ability that is equal to or very near to what Guardians currently have. Complaints about the warden shouldn't be misheard as 'make us Guardians'. And yet, even with this, the prejudice against warden tanks in raids will survive because we are yet to add anything new, our overall defense is still compromised V our tanking counterparts.

Essentially, we remain a 'compromise tank' for when a Guardian can't be found or when you're kin/raid group doesn't want to leave you out.

Where is the added incentive for the morale leeches that was discussed? Did someone knock on someones door this morning and say "Dude, Isen in 6 days, where's that diary?!?!" Ten minutes later, done. If our morale leeching ability was more drastically improved then we'd become more end-game favorable, perhaps even a single target leech.

As for the DPS changes, in no way will they make anyone ever consider us as even a side-DPS role in group play. There were other ways to go about improving our DPS, this was not it.

In conclusion, I absolutely think the Warden is a neglected class, possibly because it is too complicated and too time consuming to make the necessary changes, as a result of our unique mechanics. I'd of preferred a more detailed update, considering we haven't had a 'class of the month', or at the very least, a more detailed developer's diary that addresses ALL our issues realistically.

Originally Posted by Fenaril

Wardens will be Might-Based (Might as their Primary Stat) - that was stated in the Stats Dev Diary.

Cheers to you, good sir! It was also stated in each of the Burglar and Captain class Dev Diaries, so I was worried. Glad that I worried for naught.

(And now that our tactical skills are might based, there is no need for a Spear or Shield based AoE.)

Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier

Cheers to you, good sir! It was also stated in each of the Burglar and Captain class Dev Diaries, so I was worried. Glad that I worried for naught. (

And now that our tactical skills are might based, there is no need for a Spear or Shield based AoE.)

Stats:
Might:
10x might -> melee offense rating
10x might -> ranged offense rating
2x might -> Physical mitigation
4x might -> block rating
2x might -> parry rating

Agility:
1.5x agi -> critical rating
2x agi -> parry
4x agi -> evade

Vitality:
5x vit -> morale
2x vit -> physical mit
4x vit -> tact mit
2x vit -> resistance rating
965 vit -> 6947 NCMR

Will:
Adds to power, tact offense rating, outgoing healing, resistance rating ncpr
130 -> 390 power, 520 tac off, 520 ohr, 260 res, 1560 ncpr

Fate:
Adds to critical rating, icmr, and icpr more than (ratio not easy to spot)
155 fate -> 271 crit rating, 232 icmr, 373 icpr

In response to a lot of people asking why wardens are excited about these updates, there are a few reasons. Firstly, many of the reasons NOT to bring a warden are addressed - threat swapping, crit susceptibility, stuns, and snap aggro.

I think that you're right in that there still isn't a reason you'd want to take a warden over a guard, but this is definitely a step in the right direction - sure It's more reactive than proactive.

Another thing I'm not seeing discussed here is the raising of the avoidance cap, and how this benefits the class. From what I've heard, wardens will get a full 10% more avoidance than guards and much more than anyone else. How can a warden find maintain all those buffs throughout a fight? The answer appears to be aggression.

As for the problem with wardens needing more skill to get the same results as mediocre guards or champs... WAI, IMO. Is this update going to make people any more likely to trust an untested warden in a pug... lol, nope.

Ok, the only thing that was even remotely a weakness for my warden was power. They've addressed this, hurrah! All the other "shortcomings" listed never really felt like shortcomings; my warden is already overpowered and with power changes will be unstoppable (who needs a ring of power when you've got a spear?).

Oh yea, the bleed changes. The descriptions do not make much sense to me. Mighty Blow already gives a moderate bleed, and Unerring Strike already gives a high bleed. So is the new change only the extra upfront damage but nothing new for bleeds? The change to wardens would then be to use the bleed gambits in reverse order of lowest to strongest? Do the gambits consume the lesser bleeds? If so that extra upfront damage must be larger than the total duration of the bleed damage to be useful. If the bleeds aren't consumed then you can just spam the three bleed gambit rotation over and over.

The threat swapping stuff seems useful. But you only get the decreased threat gambit at level 70. The only fight I know of where tank swapping is needed (not being a big raider) is Filikul at level 60 and I was hoping this was just a quirk. I've definitely had a few times in the past where I wanted to decrease threat (ie, I wasn't main tank). Would have been nice to have this at a lower level maybe, though it's definitely not vital. I always treated the lack of a threat decrease skill as one of those warden quirks...

I wonder how powerful Aggression really is? We already have threat leeches and Dance of War is very powerful there. I almost never lose aggro if I'm paying attention. If Aggression much stronger than DoW I have a feeling it could be too overpowered and make holding aggro be a no-brainer (which it almost is now).

Stun-immunity. Is this really a big problem? Having to predict that you need stun immunity in the next 10 seconds seems unusual; normally the stuns I get are either random based on chance of an enemy's skill being used, or I can stop the stun with interrupts. All classes have problems with stuns except LM, it's not a warden specific problem. If you are stunned in the middle of gambit you just continue it when you shake it off. I'm getting the feeling that this is designed for a few specific raid fights? Though the tactical defense is definitely useful, I agree there that this was missing.

Potency/Battle Memory. Was a but worried at first at the 25% chance for potency, but see that slotting 4 traits in a set gives you 100%, so that definitely makes it more useful (even with 3/2/2 you get 50% chance). Losing the battle memory shortly after a battle is over could affect things; if it expires before you can run to your next fight then that seriously diminishes the usefulness when soloing. The interesting thing is trying to find which cases where this can be useful. Ie, can you save up a Dark Before Dawn so you can use it even when your morale goes back up? Save up an interrupt so that it's instant-use. Save up a morale leech to be ready for when the adds show up? Something to think about.

Originally Posted by geoboy

In response to a lot of people asking why wardens are excited about these updates, there are a few reasons. Firstly, many of the reasons NOT to bring a warden are addressed - threat swapping, crit susceptibility, stuns, and snap aggro.

I think that you're right in that there still isn't a reason you'd want to take a warden over a guard, but this is definitely a step in the right direction - sure It's more reactive than proactive.

Another thing I'm not seeing discussed here is the raising of the avoidance cap, and how this benefits the class. From what I've heard, wardens will get a full 10% more avoidance than guards and much more than anyone else. How can a warden find maintain all those buffs throughout a fight? The answer appears to be aggression.

As for the problem with wardens needing more skill to get the same results as mediocre guards or champs... WAI, IMO. Is this update going to make people any more likely to trust an untested warden in a pug... lol, nope.

Excitement about the B/P/E 25% cap increase quickly diminished after we learnt how finesse effects it, just another issue about Warden V Guardian ability that wasn't addressed in this diary.

Thanks for the diary Orion.. I did not see any major surprises in the diary, which was good. I also will acknowledge that all these are not entirely your responsibility,, you just get to be the message bearer. However,

"There is no mistaking the Warden for a DPS class. They can hold their own and are an excellent solo class, but they only fill one role in group play – a tank. Their DPS rotation typically ends in using one or two skills over and over and over. It gets boring. It’s not an ideal way of playing the class because, in order to be remotely viable, you use those two skills or you look like a Warden."

Umm dang.. seriously wardens were doing WT over and over? How sad... Soo.. why change bleeds on those of us who already loved to see 4-5 bleeds on a mob, starting with the highest first and working our way down until no more bleeds would be needed and we want to up our morale... Oh well..

Umm.. Shortcoming II addresses tanking aggro problems for.. umm.. level 70 and above? Wow.. we don't even benefit from them until we are half-way thru Isengard? SIGH.. poor people who are not already at end game and can't buy a group. They do look pretty awesome once we get them tho.

Never Surrender.. well.. I might actually at least BUY it now. Will be interesting to see how it really works with the new mechanic.

Shield Tactics.. Looks awesome.. more for the Tactical protection which we did not have before than for the SI, that is a bonus.

Power cost reduction.. just.. DROOL....

Potency and Battle Memory.. Should be interesting.. the way I see it used in a fight I have not done on my warden... say a fight like the Balrog in Fear in OD.. Warden starts fight.. does Potency Goad and mems the Aggro up gambit, fires it,, Potency again, loads DeAggro gambit.. when switch needed, fires from BM and goes to second tank.. Potency again and then puts Aggro up in BM, fires again and steals aggro from second tank.. Umm.. if you actually have to fire the gambit that may mean when you build it, you steal aggro before you should..

Masteries.. Hmm can still trait the single mastery and get just the Sp-Sp, Sh-Sh, or Fi-Fi gambits so we can build Potency quickly.. cool.. except.. wait.. that won't affect until what level do we get Potency and BM? Level 66-70? So.. no masteries until Way of the Warden legendary, and the reward for the change is a skill that we get above level 66?

Groan.. why was I excited to see and on the initial read of the diary and, as I wrote this, got more disappointed? Dang those expectations..

Originally Posted by AltariasEU

in RoI I have to follow a specific order to be effective? And what happens to my rotation when I miss my power attack? That's right, it's screwed!

Hold on... This implies that the gambits don't apply bleeds if I do them out of order?? Do I HAVE to do Power Attack first? If I do my current rotation in RoI will my low DPS go even lower, or will it just remain where it is?

The only way this is "screwed" is if the DPS is lower in RoI if you don't learn the new rotation. Or does "screwed" in this case just mean "not maximized"? (converting MMO player sentences to English is always tricky)

Originally Posted by geoboy

2) I agree, 10s just isn't long enough, especially from a 4-length gambit.

But the 60 seconds tactical defense is good! I don't know why the description listed the minor stun immunity first before the much more important tactical defense. It's another tool for the tanking warden to get up their buffs.

Originally Posted by Overtone

This is too awesome for words. Thank you. Now Wardens can really experiment with some different builds.

Does Way of the Warden trait grant all these masteries, or are they only activated while the Way of the Warden stance is active. That's a huge difference. If it's only when stance is active it doesn't feel that special.

Originally Posted by Lohi

Does Way of the Warden trait grant all these masteries, or are they only activated while the Way of the Warden stance is active. That's a huge difference. If it's only when stance is active it doesn't feel that special.

The stance does not have to be active to receive the benefits of the masteries.

I never really played warden, but the changes sound nice.

There is one thing tho I am not really sure i got it right and it really makes me kinda happy as a PvE raider , but in my long lost creep side is really worrying. I am referring to the Never Surrender change. From what i got is that let's say I have a 1v1 with a warden on my poor lil retired spider, I get the warden down from his 15k to 1k morale , he pops that skill and when my dot's are about to finish him off, he gets a ~10k heal ?

If that's the case then it is lame for PvP.

Originally Posted by LoyalDasarian

The stance does not have to be active to receive the benefits of the masteries.

:-)

This is great. I went for ages without the fist masteries because I just despise the cookie cutter builds. I had a 5/2 build that I preferred more. I do like the fist masteries now that I have it but I hate having 3 full traits spent just on masteries which prevents me choosing more useful side traits.

(I always hated the idea of trait set bonuses as they try to force players into particular molds, and it actually decreased the variety of builds)

I kept meaning to compare beta and live number for the fist gambit morale drains but forgot. My initial impressions in beta were that they had not been scaled nearly enough to compensate for the ten levels we get. So is that still the case? I'm exaggerating a bit but the lower fist gambits were not healing me enough to keep up with my own battle memory damage to myself.

Originally Posted by Lycaunoss

I kept meaning to compare beta and live number for the fist gambit morale drains but forgot. My initial impressions in beta were that they had not been scaled nearly enough to compensate for the ten levels we get. So is that still the case? I'm exaggerating a bit but the lower fist gambits were not healing me enough to keep up with my own battle memory damage to myself.

The whole ending beta and no open beta caught me totally by surprise and I didn't have enough time to check out things on my Warden

However, based on purely speculation, I'm guessing out leaches don't scale as much as incoming damage or our morale growth.

But, it we get a response to the Fist HoT questions, that would change my opinion.

Or we'll just have to wait until launch to try things out.

Originally Posted by roysterer

Oh, I've just thought of an ingenious solution to the issue I just raised: make ambush cause a stun rather than a knockdown. This would compensate to some degree for the beast you're making wardens into, and should have no impact on PvE.

Yes, that would make a HUGE difference in PvE. The majority of stun-immune mobs are NOT knockdown-immune. That's a big part of what makes the skill so useful

Originally Posted by Caladria-Gr

I never really played warden, but the changes sound nice.

There is one thing tho I am not really sure i got it right and it really makes me kinda happy as a PvE raider , but in my long lost creep side is really worrying. I am referring to the Never Surrender change. From what i got is that let's say I have a 1v1 with a warden on my poor lil retired spider, I get the warden down from his 15k to 1k morale , he pops that skill and when my dot's are about to finish him off, he gets a ~10k heal ?

If that's the case then it is lame for PvP.

Thing is, he's screwed after that if he can't finish you off pretty dang quick. In the absence of HoTs, a Warden can't heal himself while building his dps gambits. He either has to keep bulding one-time heals or try to burn you down before you kill him.

Originally Posted by Maetho

My inner proofreader wonders if there is a reason you used the pronoun her in the mastery section instead of their

Strictly speaking the correct grammar would be his/her. Using 'their' in such situations is a common mistake.

(If I sounded snobbish, I'm sorry. My mother was an English teacher, and the whole grammatical nit-pickyness kinda rubbed off.)

OK. In response to all the glooming and dooming about how "wardens aren't good tanks", and about how "everybody picks guards and champs over wardens", and about how "we don't have any good skills for tanking", I say this:

Our problem is not that Wardens can't tank well.

Our problem is that nobody believes that we can tank well.

So let's cast away our doubts, throw out the old view of Wardens, and create a new paradigm in Middle Earth.

Get out there. Get out there and PROVE that Wardens are good Tanks! Get out there and SHOW THE WORLD!

SHOW THEM THAT WE ARE WADENS!!!!!!!!!

Earn your Cookys.

Originally Posted by TheAC

Thing is, he's screwed after that if he can't finish you off pretty dang quick. In the absence of HoTs, a Warden can't heal himself while building his dps gambits. He either has to keep bulding one-time heals or try to burn you down before you kill him.

Yes actually that might be the case, but honestly from what i recall from DN days when i was playing on my spider, sparring with good wardens back then was a pretty challenging and close fight. I dont know how this can be different in SoM or RoI but if the encounters between a weaver and warden remain more or less the same then a 10k heal when the weaver will be on 1-2k maybe even less , is a iWin skill for the warden.

Originally Posted by TheAC

SHOW THEM THAT WE ARE WADENS!!!!!!!!! [/b]

You dont even know how to spell ur class name and u wanna show the world what that class is ? xD j/k

I think I'll tank just fine and so will other wardens that tank well already. Why would I think that?

a) new gambits to help with aggro and some other stuff
b) we were awesome before
c) increased caps on b/p/e
d) class is still fun to play (I was in beta)
e) way of the warden slotted to free up 3 traits (well two b/c I'm still going to use one of the "Master of" traits)
f) we have the compilation

Read this:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-to-the-Warden.
and this for more info from beta and more discussion on why wardens are going to be fine
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ew-warden-info

Will any of this matter and make wardens more viable in the eyes GLFF or on the forum as a raid tank. Probably not, but it will be our little secret that we do it just fine and better in many fights.

If our only nerf is that finesse hurts us b/c of our high avoidance I think we're going to be fine. I really can't wait for non-beta wardens to give their feedback on the changes.

Originally Posted by Caladria-Gr

You dont even know how to spell ur class name and u wanna show the world what that class is ? xD j/k

I forgive you, for you don't frequent the Warden Forums. (It wasn't a typo.)
______________________________ ______________________

And as for my comment about some Wardens doubting the classes ability to tank, I was drawing from some of the more despairing comments on this thread. I will edit my original post.
And Mistden? That's the kind of attitude we need.

Thanks for the dev diary=) Couple of things I reacted too

In closing, I want to mention that I would like, in the future, to make a more concerted effort to change the Way of the Fist significantly. As it stands, the Warden is in very good shape and the changes that we are making with Isengard are going to augment an already solid class even further. With the addition of potency and Battle Memory we are providing a clear glimpse of where this class could go in the future. We look forward to seeing you all in Isengard.

1. How can you say that a class which mostly ain't taking to raids is in a good shape? On my server theres 2 (!) wardens which have done all of OD t2, but maybe 20+ guardians. Wardens is NOT (!) in a good shape in endgame (mainly because of the lack of a way to get aggro back after death) Maybe this is fixed by the new gambit, but starting by stating that warden is in a good shape atm, is just silly. Especially consider we have a full useless traitline.

2. How come wardens have such a little dev diary? Orion have 3 classes, minstrel/champion/warden, where the minstrel and champion have dev diaries extending over mulitple pages explaining every single aspect of their new skills. We are not only last, we have the shortest diary, we are the class in the most dire need of a revamp (the numbers speak for themself, warden is the least used class in a group/raid) and we get almost nothing.

3. The battle memory is wonderfull tho, it follows the warden playstyle, if used correctly is brilliant, and overall a nice new idea, I like it!

Orion, I dont blame you for not liking warden as good as minstrel, but you should still be fair, and have an equal interest in getting the classes balanced. So far it hasnt been like that, which means you have failed in one part or the other. Most companies use resources on whatever needs to be fixed, Turbine on the other hand, use every update changing the hunter class but leaving the yellow warden traitline alone. I think and hope you understand why this might be frustrating?

So what did I expect? First, I expected a dev explaining the current situation and its problems (instead of the general "your in a nice state"). Second I expected to be appreciated. Instead I get the feeling Orion dosnt really like us, and just put out this short diary to make us shut up. And:

When I was asked to make adjustments to the Warden class, I was a little taken aback. As a class, I feel the Warden is the epitome of a well-built class that allows the user to fill roles very well. Of course, like all classes, there are some flaws which can be addressed, but the mechanics of the Warden make addressing those flaws a little more difficult than with other classes. In essence, the Warden is in a good spot, not a great one, but not really needing a complete revision or reimagining.

Failing to see the obvious ways of changing the warden class. 1. If you want to make a class such as the warden be able to solo and raid without being OP in neither you need to add a benefit of being in a fellow. Such benefit could be +25% healing in 6man/50% in raid, compared to -25% solo. You also need a fast and reliable way of getting aggro back after death!

In all honesty I dont really know why I care anymore! Its been almost 3 years since wardens was introduced, but NOTHING has changed since then, so why should it now. The flaws are obvious, the fixes easy to implement, so why should it change now?

First, can someone points me the interest in Deflection ?
Why, as a tank, would a Warden loose some threat ? With the DPS boost received by other classes, I'm affraid that the Warden will already have some hard time in threat management. So I don't see the interest in Deflection.

Next, I was hoping for more efficient threat management skills, something like the Challenge of the Guardian, some kind of Panic Button... But no, Wardens will still have to painfully build their threat, loose it after a nice crit from a fellow member and start running around, trying to get a hold back on that critter.

I agree with Solyaris. Warden is a second class tank (maybe third class now after a look at the tanking changes to the champion).
But I suppose most people think that this is still OK as Warden stays a good solo class.

Originally Posted by Solyaris

Thanks for the dev diary=) Couple of things I reacted too



1. How can you say that a class which mostly ain't taking to raids is in a good shape? On my server theres 2 (!) wardens which have done all of OD t2, but maybe 20+ guardians. Wardens is NOT (!) in a good shape in endgame (mainly because of the lack of a way to get aggro back after death) Maybe this is fixed by the new gambit, but starting by stating that warden is in a good shape atm, is just silly. Especially consider we have a full useless traitline.

2. How come wardens have such a little dev diary? Orion have 3 classes, minstrel/champion/warden, where the minstrel and champion have dev diaries extending over mulitple pages explaining every single aspect of their new skills. We are not only last, we have the shortest diary, we are the class in the most dire need of a revamp (the numbers speak for themself, warden is the least used class in a group/raid) and we get almost nothing.

3. The battle memory is wonderfull tho, it follows the warden playstyle, if used correctly is brilliant, and overall a nice new idea, I like it!

Orion, I dont blame you for not liking warden as good as minstrel, but you should still be fair, and have an equal interest in getting the classes balanced. So far it hasnt been like that, which means you have failed in one part or the other. Most companies use resources on whatever needs to be fixed, Turbine on the other hand, use every update changing the hunter class but leaving the yellow warden traitline alone. I think and hope you understand why this might be frustrating?

So what did I expect? First, I expected a dev explaining the current situation and its problems (instead of the general "your in a nice state"). Second I expected to be appreciated. Instead I get the feeling Orion dosnt really like us, and just put out this short diary to make us shut up. And:

Failing to see the obvious ways of changing the warden class. 1. If you want to make a class such as the warden be able to solo and raid without being OP in neither you need to add a benefit of being in a fellow. Such benefit could be +25% healing in 6man/50% in raid, compared to -25% solo. You also need a fast and reliable way of getting aggro back after death!

In all honesty I dont really know why I care anymore! Its been almost 3 years since wardens was introduced, but NOTHING has changed since then, so why should it now. The flaws are obvious, the fixes easy to implement, so why should it change now?

Originally Posted by Grimwerd

First, can someone points me the interest in Deflection ?
Why, as a tank, would a Warden loose some threat ? With the DPS boost received by other classes, I'm affraid that the Warden will already have some hard time in threat management. So I don't see the interest in Deflection.

Next, I was hoping for more efficient threat management skills, something like the Challenge of the Guardian, some kind of Panic Button... But no, Wardens will still have to painfully build their threat, loose it after a nice crit from a fellow member and start running around, trying to get a hold back on that critter.

I agree with Solyaris. Warden is a second class tank (maybe third class now after a look at the tanking changes to the champion).
But I suppose most people think that this is still OK as Warden stays a good solo class.

First of I would say I don't think Warden will ever be a main-tank becouse of Medium armour.
I don't raid much but the few times I have done that my main problem hasn't been aggro or heals ... I could take on a whole instance of scrap mobs and maby smaller bosses but as we come to the big bosses who do sometimes or often big hits I will go down quickly, sure I P/B/E alot but as Boss gets a hit on me I will lose more Morale than minis and me can heal combined. That is what makes atleast my warden not able to tank in a raid well enough but for me that is where I think deflection comes in handy as a Secondary tank, Warder aggro Scrapmobs and gets aggro on Boss and some other hard-hitters, then Warden can use Deflection to let Main-tank take bosses aggro easier from warden wich atleast I do have no problem maintaning aggro. By deviding scrab mobs hits and big boss hits to two players will give the minis the opurtunity to heal these lesser big hits on the main tank and maby even RK's to throw in some heals on the warden to keep him/her in status quo :P

Edit: I think the changes will change my playstyle a whole lot anyway, I can't say for sure yet, but what my mind tells me that I will trait fist gambit some more now as Fist gambit get's a Heal over time pulses, so with alot of mobs I can maintain a pretty much more decent healing on myself... And with battle Memory I, I think one can store the most needed skills during battle to one way or another have these panic skills... I am thinking of storing Dark before Dawn. WooooooooOOOoooW

Originally Posted by The_Legacy

First of I would say I don't think Warden will ever be a main-tank becouse of Medium armour.
I don't raid much but the few times I have done that my main problem hasn't been aggro or heals ... I could take on a whole instance of scrap mobs and maby smaller bosses but as we come to the big bosses who do sometimes or often big hits I will go down quickly, sure I P/B/E alot but as Boss gets a hit on me I will lose more Morale than minis and me can heal combined.

Fist gambit get's a Heal over time pulses, so with alot of mobs I can maintain a pretty much more decent healing on myself... And with battle Memory I, I think one can store the most needed skills during battle to one way or another have these panic skills... I am thinking of storing Dark before Dawn. WooooooooOOOoooW

First point: Wardens can tank all end game bosses currently (only problem is agro swapping where we need a guardian partner), infact some bosses we do even better. If healers can't keep then you need better ones, either that or you are not geared well enough for the fight, or the rest of your group is taking too much damage = less time to heal you. I am not trying to be harsh here, just pointing out that it is entirely possible for us to tank end game, you are just feeding the masses here with "wardens can't tank"

Second point would be great but AFAIK (from beta) the +fist heal pulses only applies to war cry.

On a lighter note storing DBtD I like, but it requires you to get to half health before you can queue, because you need use the gambit while potency is active to add it to BM.

EDIT: Sorry if it sounds like I am picking on your post, there are several posts like this in the thread, this just happened to be the last one I read.

Another obvious (and presumably straightforward) way to improve warden DPS would have been to add +5% ranged DPS in addition to the +5% melee DPS the recklessness stance currently grants. Given our limited number of ranged attacks I don't see this being OP.

Furthermore, Way of the Warden could do with being updated to incorporate the +crit defence that determination gives. The skill description reads: "Combine all of the Warden's fighting styles into a single master style using the best parts of each.". Some might argue that the +crit defence aspect of determination is more attractive than the +ICMR.

Given that I'm going to have to slot it 100% of the time now, it'd be nice if WotW was useful as a stance not just as a way to get my masteries. There's also still the thorny issue of legacies which affect our stances (primarily the ~100 extra ICPR in conservation that almost every warden I see has equipped) not applying to Way of the Warden.

I didn't get to group much in beta but I look forward to trying out our new threat management tools as well as getting to grips with potency / battle memory.

Currently, I'm concerned that the mechanic is an additional layer of complexity on top of what is arguably already the most difficult class to play. Whilst there will be some who get to grips with it and use it to the maximum, many may not - then you have the problem of balancing content: a small group of committed and talented users may make the class look OP resulting in a nerf which adversely effects the majority of users...