So..
I'm reading the burglar developer diary and i notice the following:
Level 74: Improved Startling Twist – Now affects up to three targets that are affected by Tricks.
So if i was a very clever little burg and was properly traited deep in the gambler line i could apply and dmg gamble to 3 targets at once? Now THAT'S awesome!
Ignore them, play your class however you want. Take advice account but don't let others tell you how to play. It's just their way of making themselves feel important.
If they think you are gimping yourself, they should be happy about it. It should just make them feel like a superior player.
I don't really agree that QK is the only way to trait, either. Sure if you want to parse it strictly in terms of damage output, maybe QK wins over MM, although I'm not sure that's been conclusively proven. And Isengard's stat overhaul may change that anyway, and the Update 5 improvement to tactical classes' DPS might change it further.
But we do so much more than just solo DPS or CD/Reveal to improve group DPS. Maybe raids are just counting their DPS, but in 3-man and 6-man stuff Burg CC and Disable/Dust/Enrage can mean the difference between winning and losing. And MM and Gambler both provide different tools to cleverly solve those problems. Improved defense can win fights.
Personally, I'm retraiting Gambler for leveling in Isengard. I think Gambler provides the best set of balanced tools for dealing with unknown situations. And yes, I'm looking forward to, hopefully, Startling Twisting 3 damaging gambles at the same time.
As has been said before, the other joy of 5qk plus leafwalker and a trick trait is that ifa plus leafwalker = excellent crowd control. Chance of a mez on any mob every 15 secs, and if you're quick with your target tabbing it's really easy to apply in combat and only takes a second.
What won me over was running t3 skirmishes traited different ways. I found gambler was solid, 5mm didn't have enough punch (and I found QaS a tricky form of CC to use in combat, maybe that's just me) and 5qk plus leafwalker blew the others away for easy crowd control plus top dps (esp. when using enrage to get positional damage).
This is true if the content is challenging, but 2 months after releasing content then the fights will be trivial dps races and improved defense falls on deaf ears and the other two guys will be thinking "man, we are low on dps"
AoE DiTE doesn't win fights, you get nothing additional for going deep in MM, and debuffing gambles can't be kept up long enough (and are presumably still bugged).
AoE DiTE doesn't win fights, you get nothing additional for going deep in MM, and debuffing gambles can't be kept up long enough (and are presumably still bugged).
Debuff gamble is not meant to be put permanantly, that would be way to OP (+20% miss chance, +40% attack speed, -30% damage with T6). Along with disable, it is meant to seriously cripple the target for 15~30 seconds (if you time GS well) every 1.30 minutes to give everyone air, especialy the tank and the healer. They last long enough for what they do and can be put many times during a boss fight. Considering how powerful a debuff this is and that it can be on the boss for about 1/4 of the fight duration, it is not to be underestimated. As for going deep in MM, it gives you an additional permanant debuff that will boost the whole group damage done to the main target (13% along with improved RW).
Debuff gamble is not meant to be put permanantly, that would be way to OP (+20% miss chance, +40% attack speed, -30% damage with T6). Along with disable, it is meant to seriously cripple the target for 15~30 seconds (if you time GS well) every 1.30 minutes to give everyone air, especialy the tank and the healer. They last long enough for what they do and can be put many times during a boss fight. Considering how powerful a debuff this is and that it can be on the boss for about 1/4 of the fight duration, it is not to be underestimated. As for going deep in MM, it gives you an additional permanant debuff that will boost the whole group damage done to the main target (13% along with improved RW).
a) Periods of spike dmg that may kill a tank generally last only a few seconds, so you'd have to proactively put a debuffing gamble on a mob (beforehand) to have any real impact at all. That means you'd need to know in advance when the tank is about to take a lot of damage, which is rarely possible. Furthermore, debuffing gambles are apparently still bugged so on tougher mobs (eg: raid bosses) they reduce damage by a far smaller amount than you would expect (can't find the thread where someone pointed this out, but it was fairly recent).
b) QK traits increase your own dps more than the whole group's dps will be increased by QaS (see analysis in one of the old feedback threads for the previous update).
You don't always have to use debuff gamble in such a specific context where a boss have brief periods of spike damage. In general you don't realy have to pay attention to that. It is prefered to just throw it as soon as it's available to have it on as often as possible. As for the bugged part I was aware about that but ingame it seems to work just fine. I haven't tested it deeply though but it is still an efficient debuff from what I've experienced.
For the QaS part it realy depends of the composition of your group I suppose. If you have good DPS classes I am pretty sure than +3% damage of 12 players (or 10 if we dont count the healers) is higher than the difference between a QK dps and a MM dps. Then again, I havent tested it, but it must be pretty even.
You don't always have to use debuff gamble in such a specific context where a boss have brief periods of spike damage. In general you don't realy have to pay attention to that. It is prefered to just throw it as soon as it's available to have it on as often as possible. As for the bugged part I was aware about that but ingame it seems to work just fine. I haven't tested it deeply though but it is still an efficient debuff from what I've experienced.
For the QaS part it realy depends of the composition of your group I suppose. If you have good DPS classes I am pretty sure than +3% damage of 12 players (or 10 if we dont count the healers) is higher than the difference between a QK dps and a MM dps. Then again, I havent tested it, but it must be pretty even.
If you're just randomly tossing debuffing gambles up, it just highlights how little impact they clearly have. Around 3/4 of the time no debuff is up, and around 5/6ths of the time its not at max strength, yet the tank must be able to survive throughout these times just fine or else you'll have serious problems. Additionally, the bug means that the debuff will have less impact on mobs with high melee offense (ie: raid bosses), but almost the full impact on mobs with low melee offense (eg: regular landscape mobs).
The analysis in that other thread I mentioned shows that the dmg enhancement you get from QK should be significantly better than what you get from QaS in any std group makeup involving 12 players (for less than that, QK is obviously better still) - the 4 and 5 set bonuses from QK are huge. You could at least think about it instead of just saying "must be".
That's just your opinion, one among many others. We obviously have different views. I'm just explaining the pros of QaS and the Debuff Gambles, you said your cons, you don't have to be agressive about it. If for you "maintening a debuff as long as possible because it's powerfull" (not just at tier6 by the way) and "throwing randomly because it has no impact" means the same thing, fine!
For your information, yes I have thought it through, thank you (-_-), and it seems very plausible that the difference between QK and MM dps is pretty much even or at most slightly higher than +3% the damage of a whole raid. I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I am also very surprised and doubtful about that analysis.
That's just your opinion, one among many others. We obviously have different views. I'm just explaining the pros of QaS and the Debuff Gambles, you said your cons, you don't have to be agressive about it. If for you "maintening a debuff as long as possible because it's powerfull" (not just at tier6 by the way) and "throwing randomly because it has no impact" means the same thing, fine!
For your information, yes I have thought it through, thank you (-_-), and it seems very plausible that the difference between QK and MM dps is pretty much even or at most slightly higher than +3% the damage of a whole raid. I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I am also very surprised and doubtful about that analysis.
It is only really 3% increase to 5 or 6 people if you think about it. 12 man raid -2 healers -2 cappies -1 or 2 tanks and minus yourself(the burglar who has a 50% reduction in dps due to traiting MM).
The cappies tanks and MM burglars dpps is so low 3% increase will not be noticed further improving QKs benefits.
It is only really 3% increase to 5 or 6 people if you think about it. 12 man raid -2 healers -2 cappies -1 or 2 tanks and minus yourself(the burglar who has a 50% reduction in dps due to traiting MM).
The cappies tanks and MM burglars dpps is so low 3% increase will not be noticed further improving QKs benefits.
Hmm yeah I see your point and maybe you are right. MM does a bit more than just 50% a QK dps thought, but it's still probably not enough.
Hmm yeah I see your point and maybe you are right. MM does a bit more than just 50% a QK dps thought, but it's still probably not enough.
I seem to remember seeing people posting 300-350dps for a 5MM build, and 740dps for a 5QK build (don't remember exactly and can't be bothered finding the posts). My subjective impression from playing both regularly is that these numbers are about right, and I have weapons with appropriate maxed legacies and so on for each traitline so I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right. Can't be bothered to parse it though.
I've never fully-levelled a TG weapon, because I can't face another grind (relics and empowerment scrolls argh), but I also rather doubt you have ever fully-levelled and played a QK weapon/build (and with appropriate bag legacies - pos damage, addle cooldown, crit multiplier or whatever the other one you want for QK is).
Not being funny with you, but the extra few per cent damage here and there from having all the necessary legacies (at a high tier) adds up, as does building for melee offence and ICPR. I'd suggest you are underestimating the damage QK can do. Is it possible that the reason you don't rate QK over TG is because you've never done a QK build 100%?
I've never done TG 100% of course, but my impression is that the legacies you'd want for a TG bag and weapon would add to things like clever retort, glee heal and pulse, gamble chance and so on. All good stuff for the burg, but nothing that contributes to a group in a raid. Or do you run gambler in a raid with the same bag as a QK burg would have? On a weapon I guess you'd have LS cooldown, crit response damage, subtle stab damage and crit, bleed damage, bleed stacking? Not sure offhand, but not really that different to a QK weapon perhaps (LS for iFA obviously).
or maybe they just think that by debuffing and mezzing like hell makes them really useful and look like really "helping". you know... "playing the way a burg should be".
or maybe.. to be a good burg one should play a "complex" traitline to make them more awesome or cool. "QK is so boringgg, you know? QK is for noobs! I 'd rather play a champ if i want DPS!"
I seem to remember seeing people posting 300-350dps for a 5MM build, and 740dps for a 5QK build (don't remember exactly and can't be bothered finding the posts). My subjective impression from playing both regularly is that these numbers are about right, and I have weapons with appropriate maxed legacies and so on for each traitline so I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right. Can't be bothered to parse it though.
I've never fully-levelled a TG weapon, because I can't face another grind (relics and empowerment scrolls argh), but I also rather doubt you have ever fully-levelled and played a QK weapon/build (and with appropriate bag legacies - pos damage, addle cooldown, crit multiplier or whatever the other one you want for QK is).
Not being funny with you, but the extra few per cent damage here and there from having all the necessary legacies (at a high tier) adds up, as does building for melee offence and ICPR. I'd suggest you are underestimating the damage QK can do. Is it possible that the reason you don't rate QK over TG is because you've never done a QK build 100%?
I've never done TG 100% of course, but my impression is that the legacies you'd want for a TG bag and weapon would add to things like clever retort, glee heal and pulse, gamble chance and so on. All good stuff for the burg, but nothing that contributes to a group in a raid. Or do you run gambler in a raid with the same bag as a QK burg would have? On a weapon I guess you'd have LS cooldown, crit response damage, subtle stab damage and crit, bleed damage, bleed stacking? Not sure offhand, but not really that different to a QK weapon perhaps (LS for iFA obviously).
I have never rolled a QK at 100% because like you, I hate grinding for that kind of stuff. I spar often with other burgs though so I can see what kind of crits/dps a QK can do compared to mine and I never though the difference was huge enough for me to want to grind for a completely new LI set. I don't know if they were all doing something wrong, but that's what I observed.
It's not realy that I underestimate a QK dps, I aknowledge that dpswise, a QK is better, but that's about the only reason why i would like to choose this traitline. Otherwise it would feel, to me, like it is missing some great tools. If I choose to roll with TG, it's because I like to do a little of everything (solo skirmishes, PvMP, group instances, raid) and using the same LI set I can easily adapt to any situation without breaking a sweat. So I may be slightly less productive in a raid while still being helpful, but I will be more fearsome in PvMP.
About the legacies, TG and QK are pretty much the same for the weapon. If you want to be a good gambler, you also need to enhance your DPS as well as your crit rating. The bag can be very different from a gambler to another though. I try to chose legacies that are useful in the most various situations. Glee is good for solo but in a raid it's pretty much a waste of legacy. Personnaly I use (all maxed) Addle CD, positional damage (must have!!!), gamble chance, sneak movement (for PvMP), clever retort heal/dmg and addle induction mutiplier.
or maybe they just think that by debuffing and mezzing like hell makes them really useful and look like really "helping". you know... "playing the way a burg should be".
or maybe.. to be a good burg one should play a "complex" traitline to make them more awesome or cool. "QK is so boringgg, you know? QK is for noobs! I 'd rather play a champ if i want DPS!"
Thank you for being constructive. It realy helps the discussion.
I spar often with other burgs though so I can see what kind of crits/dps a QK can do compared to mine and I never though the difference was huge enough for me to want to grind for a completely new LI set. I don't know if they were all doing something wrong, but that's what I observed.
...
You do realize that you need positional damage to take advantage of the QK traitline, right?
Honestly, Veynn might be on to something... for some reason, there's a whole bunch of Burglars who seem reluctant to trait and gear for a DPS role, because they think the Burglar isn't a DPS class. In my opinion, this is a very short-sighted approach if you care at all about efficiency.
You don't see very many Hunters running 5 Trapper of Foes and pretending to be a CC class, yet a large chunk of the Burglar population seems to try very hard to be something they're not.
Fact: A QK Burglar contributes more single target DPS in a group setting than any other class in the game (by a large margin too if the group size is 12+). Why not take advantage of this?
You do realize that you need positional damage to take advantage of the QK traitline, right?
Honestly, Veynn might be on to something... for some reason, there's a whole bunch of Burglars who seem reluctant to trait and gear for a DPS role, because they think the Burglar isn't a DPS class. In my opinion, this is a very short-sighted approach if you care at all about efficiency.
You don't see very many Hunters running 5 Trapper of Foes and pretending to be a CC class, yet a large chunk of the Burglar population seems to try very hard to be something they're not.
Fact: A QK Burglar contributes more single target DPS in a group setting than any other class in the game (by a large margin too if the group size is 12+). Why not take advantage of this?
If I wanted to play a pure DPS class, I would have choose a champ, a hunt or a rk (QK burg will be behind those classes in RoI, dps wise). Burglar is meant to be a support class (as mentioned in the class creation menu), therefore, that is what I chose to play. I do not "take advantage" of the dps margin for this simple reason: This is a game and I want to play the traitline that I enjoy the most. I will not play a traitline that I find boring just because I get better DPS if my DPS is already pretty good and I can already kill stuff fast and help in raid just fine. Traiting TG does not mean that I don't care about efficiency. In fact I would probably be less efficient in the ettenmoors rolling a QK.
I have never rolled a QK at 100% because like you, I hate grinding for that kind of stuff. I spar often with other burgs though so I can see what kind of crits/dps a QK can do compared to mine and I never though the difference was huge enough for me to want to grind for a completely new LI set. I don't know if they were all doing something wrong, but that's what I observed.
You can't be serious....right? Sparring can't even remotely give an accurate estimation about 'crit/dps'....it's not that they were doing something wrong, it's that your metric for testing the system was flawed from the ground up. Sparring first off doesn't represent how most content is played(so using it as a testing medium is a little silly) and secondly is intentionally gimping QK testing. QK is a 'behind the mob' trait line, not a sit in front of it and face roll your keys trait line. Of course your going to get skewed numbers when your running around in circles.
Your posts lost any validity they had the second you stated your 'testing' is by sparring /facepalm Feel free to post about how much you ENJOY playing a specific traitline/class - but please don't post anything about how well it performs in comparison to another ><
You can't be serious....right? Sparring can't even remotely give an accurate estimation about 'crit/dps'....it's not that they were doing something wrong, it's that your metric for testing the system was flawed from the ground up. Sparring first off doesn't represent how most content is played(so using it as a testing medium is a little silly) and secondly is intentionally gimping QK testing. QK is a 'behind the mob' trait line, not a sit in front of it and face roll your keys trait line. Of course your going to get skewed numbers when your running around in circles.
Your posts lost any validity they had the second you stated your 'testing' is by sparring /facepalm Feel free to post about how much you ENJOY playing a specific traitline/class - but please don't post anything about how well it performs in comparison to another ><
My post must not lose that much validity since I never said I used sparring to TEST QK vs TG. All I said is that I sparred some QK for fun and of course I paid more attention to the damage that was dealth to me from behind (during a startling twist stun for example). In comparison, for the duration of a twist, an average QK with positional dmg will usualy deal around 3.5k dmg to me. For the same duration (i have position dmg legacy maxed) I can deal around 3k dmg. Of course both values can change significantly for best or worse depending of the number of crits or devs. Is it the best way to test? Absolutely not! But I'm just telling what my observations are in that specific situation when you have to face a moving target.
If you cannot take advantage of positional damage vs a moving target (in spar or pvmp), then you are a fail QK.
Fair point about weapons/bag, if you're only going to make one set, TG is a good all-rounder and solo it's more fun than just burning stuff down I suppose. Actually, think I'll run TG while I stroll to L75 heh.
About QaS, I reckon it's good if you think the attack speed debuff is significant for your group, or if you can't stay in position behind the boss all the time.
Anyway, it seems like nothing I've said over the past three threads has had any impact on you. If you want to remain obstinate, you will.
It's funny because I could say the exact same thing about you. All you did from the begining is trying to provoke and keep a closed mind to everything that suggested a different opinion than your own.
It's funny because I could say the exact same thing about you. All you did from the begining is trying to provoke and keep a closed mind to everything that suggested a different opinion than your own.
I am curious to see how the triple-stun has been implemented. Will it be "smart" and stun the first 3 mobs that are tricked up, or select 3 and fail on the ones that aren't tricked? Will it act like dust and AoE centered on the mob or AoE centered on the character?
STROZZAPRETI 10/X6|RIGATONI 8|GNOCCHI 7|MACCHERONI 7|RAVIOLI 6|FUSILLI 6 ASTERIX|CHARAKHA|KHAGATAI|VORO RIP Nidor, we miss ya.
I am curious to see how the triple-stun has been implemented. Will it be "smart" and stun the first 3 mobs that are tricked up, or select 3 and fail on the ones that aren't tricked? Will it act like dust and AoE centered on the mob or AoE centered on the character?
If I had to bet, I'd guess its like Dust and will fail on non-tricked mobs even though tricked mobs are standing right beside them. But fingers crossed its better than that.
It's funny because I could say the exact same thing about you. All you did from the begining is trying to provoke and keep a closed mind to everything that suggested a different opinion than your own.
I really think you need to watch this [Search Qualiasoups video - open-mindedness<can't link from my phone>] if you think he's 'closeminded'. I really think Close-minded is a term that's overly used and even more so wrongly used <.<
If you cannot take advantage of positional damage vs a moving target (in spar or pvmp), then you are a fail QK.
Who said it's hard to get behind someone? Trying to bash someone and failing hard there, bro.
Last edited by Starrywisdom; Sep 26 2011 at 04:24 PM.
Who said it's hard to get behind someone? Trying to bash someone and failing hard there, bro.
I like how you ignore the main point of my post and pick the less important part just to attack me. This was not directly adressed to you, it was just in response to that:
Originally Posted by Starrywisdom
QK is a 'behind the mob' trait line, not a sit in front of it and face roll your keys trait line. Of course your going to get skewed numbers when your running around in circles.
As if I couldn't have an idea of a QK positional damage during a spar because he would just face roll his keyboard and run in circles the entire fight without stunning and positioning once.
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