Less interested with your opinion, more with the way you support it. Or - more appropriately - don't. Properly supported ones are worth consideration. The rest - not so much. I like ice-cream. Yay, opinion.
Oh perhaps you mean:
"if you cant handle changes and still fulfill your role, perhaps you are not good enough to adapt :-)"
"im pretty content with both my runkeeper, my captain and my hunter, all have flaws and good points."
Ie: general statements with assumption "everyone knows what I am talking about, because it is... well, truth". No examples. No elaborating.
Simple questions: Where?
Simple issues: Finesse.
Answer? Silence or generalisation. Useless pinch of ad personam.
Ad absurdum version: using keyboard with my feet is also a challenge. Dealing with design flaws is not challenge - it is... dealing with design flaws. Tanking multiple mobs as hunter used to be sort-of challenge. Self-nerfing dps because class lacks viable countermeasures *comparable to other classes WITH comparable dps* is not a challenge. Praying that feared mob will run in desired direction is not either.
Again, landscape doesn't count. It is designed with safety margins so big that any class even with awfully sub-level gear can deal with any issue with slight differences in certain difficult spots.
It brings to my attention that you dont think hunters are that bad off. let me point this out to you:
Wardens have a viable ranged dps traitline and stance. they have 40m and can use all ranged skills on the move.
they also have their viable tank and melee dps lines.
so riddle me this:
why should hunters be gated to only one good role: dps, and a broken role as CC.
why cant we have a primary role as dps with an off role as tank like warden has ranged dps as an off role of tanking?
true that its all in skill and that if your a bad player you cant really deal with difficult situations. however, i went to the moors and killed a rank 13 hunter. he is known as one of the best solo hunters and has the best gear and best skills. he died to me, a rank 3. you cant deny that hunters need help.
Let hunter have this yellow line role: tank. its only fair. wardens get our 40m ranged dps, we get to do some of their tanking. fair trade no? everyone gets something new.
It brings to my attention that you dont think hunters are that bad off. let me point this out to you:
Wardens have a viable ranged dps traitline and stance. they have 40m and can use all ranged skills on the move.
they also have their viable tank and melee dps lines.
so riddle me this:
why should hunters be gated to only one good role: dps, and a broken role as CC.
why cant we have a primary role as dps with an off role as tank like warden has ranged dps as an off role of tanking?
true that its all in skill and that if your a bad player you cant really deal with difficult situations. however, i went to the moors and killed a rank 13 hunter. he is known as one of the best solo hunters and has the best gear and best skills. he died to me, a rank 3. you cant deny that hunters need help.
Let hunter have this yellow line role: tank. its only fair. wardens get our 40m ranged dps, we get to do some of their tanking. fair trade no? everyone gets something new.
Actually, I think my both posts can be regarded as QQ instead of "not that bad off"
But in this case: well, in terms of pure dps we are fine. Or fine-ish in some cases. It's when threat & survival becomes and issue, we become... well, either a pile of bones or an annoyance for entire raid to cater to.
My main issue with proper tanking traitline is that it simplifies class even further in solo-boss fights. Just... dps, more dps, more threat etc.
Also, it's been done *despite* not having proper traitline - I have seen hunters tanking plenty of content pre-RoI. I have seen posters describing tanking even high-end content - and I mean trustworthy posters. Besides, I had opportunity to tank some of that as well so it makes it believable in my eyes that others were able to deal with crazier examples. It was sort of fun - mostly because it was against design and impossible without competent group.
All that in the Age of Stat Caps. And while it is possible to tank even some of ToO these days, it requires both great healers and being sole focus of their attention. And there is usually more people to heal in those fights, so it invites crit/dev randomness.
If they add tanking features (mits, avoidances, self-healing) @ tanking level of potency and we still have to generate threat via dps, it will create another version of wardens, but more dps-ish, ridiculously OP in Moors. Make it sturdy enough, you will get another shield-traited warden with significantly higher killing potential.
If such traitline nerfs our dps while enhancing threat component, it will have to be really, really big nerf & threat upgrade. So essentially - vanilla Wardens without other gambits.
Currently we have yellow at CC/Debuffs crossroads - with debuffs gaining some power. Could be better than tanking if content actually supports either in more than few cases and/or with better skill reliability. I don't think people demand long-term survivability either. Tweaks to threat management and some original counter to "ahhhh, mob is in my face and BN is on cd!" = a lot already.
lol funny enough you use the same way of augmenting your case that you rally against :-)
The argument that "you must know some really awfull runekeepers and ministresl" lol there you automatically assume that to outsurvive any of those they must be bad played and thus not usable as an argument against your case.
i wasnt trying to make precise examples, i was trying to tell that with a mindset allowing me to enjoy the different classes i dont need to rally against any and all changes.
Im not talking landscape here, and wasnt talking landscape before.
Yes boss finesse take away a part of your parry evade, i am aware of the fact lol, still usually when raiding the buffs recieved from captains often make some cmpensation from this part.
but then again when talking about roles...
The idea of what a hunter should or should not be able to do is not something you can monopolise.
the way i play, my main role is dps, secondary CC.
i feel i fulfill that role just fine, im not trying to tank multiple mobs, or outdps the champ.
in doing just that i am very content with my hunter, and thus a happy gamer.
im sad for you that the idea you have of your roles are not fulfilled, but that can be a flawed perception from your part or a flawed class setup from turbines part.
but as many opinions about what a hunter should or should not be able to do exist, no hunter class setup will satisfy all players.
thus turbine need to adops some majority or middle way.
some get happy some get sad, im choosing to adapt and keep my blood preasure down
i wasnt trying to make precise examples, i was trying to tell that with a mindset allowing me to enjoy the different classes i dont need to rally against any and all changes.
Too bad. Numbers are different than feelings. And I don't think anyone is looking for therapist in a thread about class changes, so "being happy with T1 Orthanc raid" is as useful as "being happy because my hunter can run faster". Or: "I am happy. People need to adapt. I do not participate in PvMP, I do not try content where random issue can result with hunter in pieces. But I am happy. Adapt."
What goes beyond "I feel good" is the fact that when situation calls for pure dps, hunters can be easily squashed - and we are not talking about first seconds... - unless tank is above average or entire raid caters to hunters for no apparent reason, perhaps because they are just nice. Or better yet - both at the same time. And even then - T2 incorporates a mysterious number of "missed", "resisted" etc in case of tanking skills. So either you are dying because tanks is not exactly dealing with the challenge or raid has more important things to do that rescue sub-par dps class. Or because everything is great tank-side and raid-side, but some skills were missed and emergencies were simply not ready - so you die to random event other classes can deal with. Many seek solution by asking for tweaking hunter. Your solution is to adapt and you state no reason other than own lifestyle >.>
Happiness is subjective and relies on perception. BN being stuck behind other animations, and its delay that can cost several people caught in frontal AoE has nothing to do with PoV - it is a fact. Feel free to state "you feel it is not stuck behind skills" or "you feel nobody suffers because boss suddenly turns away". Lack of a viable way to actively dump threat is also a fact. And there is another fact - you can "adapt" either by being a crutch to your raid or by producing lesser numbers. So self - nerf. Why? So you can "adapt" and call neutering dps even when dps is sorely needed a "challenge"?
Originally Posted by jonkold
Im not talking landscape here, and wasnt talking landscape before.
Too bad you are not about PvMP or T2 either. Too bad you are not talking about older content on-level with yellow hunter trying to survive with yellow tank. About pugs when tank is less than capable and hunters who not aware how badly they need to nerf themselves.
Or maybe you meant T1 ToO, wings that can be finished undermanned, so essentially you can take one or two people just to perform groundrolls for entire fight. Great way to form an opinion about "issues" or "adaptation" if it doesn't really matter whether you try harder or not.
Originally Posted by jonkold
in doing just that i am very content with my hunter, and thus a happy gamer.
Originally Posted by jonkold
have a hunter alt but got bored with the simplicity of the roles he got which is why i love the challenge of keeping a raid up in morale.
Consistency FTW. But that's where you get when you let your feelings design your arguments for any topic.
Originally Posted by jonkold
thus turbine need to adops some majority or middle way.
Sorry. Middle - way for self-nerfing is slightly less self - nerfing. Other dps classes, which apparently includes burglars these days, do not *need* middle - way. They do not *need* to "adapt", their class skills take care of that in most common cases. So why exactly one class needs to "adapt" and accept "middle - way"? I mean other than patched - up design that holds up in landscape, fine in standard FS content and show its holes when numbers grow too challenging. Oh and that is laughable in Moors with few highly skilled exceptions and Raid Princesses.
Frankly, unless you are willing to talk specifics instead of lifestyle, I am kinda... done.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory:
Hunter is basic difficulty class. It is being advertised as such. Many people play it for this reason alone. You can see that in pugs.
Adding complexity that is something else than self - nerfing via traitline or via "not shooting" would upset many clients. Even if class remains fine without using them, even if it is still enough to "PS spam" with ocasional CC to feel advanced. But it would be confusing. People would complain it is convoluted, hard to decide, class is not for them anymore. The same way as with Elder King symbols that are completely unnecessary for solo content and yet you can find a crowd of people unhappy because it is there, but out of reach.
Many unhappy or "I couldn't care less" customers, development costs. Positives? It might make a smaller group trying something else happier. But... not sure. Complex means more bugs. More anger, emo, mockery, haiku, complaints in forums. Can't have that, go away. Class is fine. You can still be useful in T1, right? I mean, you don't even have to shoot, so stop complaining. I will be back in 4 months to post twice and disappear. Adapt.
Last edited by Ferthcott; Apr 21 2012 at 07:09 AM.
I think this ought to turn into a formal petition to Turbine to clarify the situation with respect to developer maintenance of the Hunter class. We have had a deafening silence since Update 5, and as paying customers deserve to have clarification on the following:
[1] whether there is still a developer allocated to the class;
[2] (secondary importance) who it is;
[3] whether there is anyone at Turbine interested in feeding back to a large proportion of their user base on developments or otherwise.
However it is only good customer service to issue *some* level of communication with one's customers.
Silence is the very opposite of golden. It will cost Turbine money.
The way I see it:
Solo hunter: should be able to take on 3 reg mobs or a sig and a reg if given the chance to prepare with ease (can be done now only if raid-geared or other comparable gearing).
Small Group hunter: should be able to tank an elite and a sig without the healer having to strain (dunno about you all...but an elite and a sig together will 1-shot my hunter if EITHER crits).
Fellowship or Larger hunter: should be #1 single target DPS (esp. ranged). RKs are ranged AoE dps that can outdo us single-target...not acceptable...they should be able to tear down mobs in an AoE setting faster than us...as should champs, but not vs single target. Burgs are much better CC than hunters when both are in dps traits...so burgs should be comparable...but less due to increased CC and stealth abilities. As for agro...I do not use any agro-reducing skills, legacies, or class item...but I never pull agro off of a decent guardian or champ (or...a phenomenal warden). The only thing I would do is have BN be an instant -60% threat w/ no duration...just instant loss of 60% of the threat generated up to that point...because I have been in situations where I took agro, popped BN...and retained agro for the whole fight.
Yellow line...is not broken, tested it out 1.5 weeks ago...best SOLO line, solo'd an elite master troll in great river...and seems that it is possible to solo nemesis spiders....if VERY careful, and (w/ legacies but not counting consumables) CC is comparable to an LM.
CC breakdown:
Perma-stun 2 targets (strategic use of bard's arrow or cry of the predator allows you to get inductions off without losing CC)
Perma-root 1 target
-40% slow on several targets if target can be slowed
blindslide = interrupt
dazing blow for corruption removal/panic induction time/interrupt
debuffs:
B/P/E debuff on multiple targets with penetrating shot
incoming damage debuff on trapped targets
buffs:
can cure whole fellowship of poison at once, instead of single-target only...+poison resist rating 10s duration (BTW acid = a kind of poison...so good to use in Roots for buff, does not cure though...as we know)
SUMMARY:
Yellow line should stay CC or change to a buff/debuff role...tanking is not a hunter thing even though there is a time and a place for it. Hunter DPS needs major buffing to allow us to be #1 single target dps (but not #1 when it comes to many mobs). Hunter survivability needs to be buffed so that a leveling hunter doesn't get 2-shot by sigs level +1 (my hunter was level 74 with 3.8k...isen sigs could 2-shot me).
The only thing I would do is have BN be an instant -60% threat w/ no duration...just instant loss of 60% of the threat generated up to that point...because I have been in situations where I took agro, popped BN...and retained agro for the whole fight.
Eh, let's just say that jumping from pseudo-reduction to 60% threat wipe is comparable to making HS inductionless. Situational & troublesome skill transformed into Permission to Faceroll - or "killing a fly (ok, ok, a pig! we do have threat issues) with artillery barrage". Not to mention "click-to-get-threat-wipe" skills are already common - if not too common. I'd take it, sure, gift horse and mouth and stuff - but unless we have a revolution in DPS/Tanking relation in RoR - it will never happen.
Originally Posted by Tulcavaryar
Yellow line...is not broken, tested it out 1.5 weeks ago...best SOLO line (snip)
Barring few unusual examples (landscape), pretty much every line is viable & easy solo line. With possible exclusion of melee traits mixed with traps or some other original conception. I don't think anyone seriously argued ToF is broken.... in terms of landscape (words like "generally useless" or irrelevant come to mind though). Personally - I wouldn't say "broken" even when speaking about group content. But it is still based on luck, inductions, short durations w/o deep yellow (waste of Adaptation). It can work. It also can bring disaster and it sucks as emergency option. So... I can only offer semantics instead of praises.
Originally Posted by Tulcavaryar
Hunter DPS needs major buffing to allow us to be #1 single target dps
Not really. Threat/paper armour nerf our dps already. Beyond that - I couldn't care less if champ/RK has astonishing +50 dps in the world where particular buffs/debuffs (or better yet: content-specific debuffs) can bend those numbers far more efficiently. Dps that CC burg brings to the table when compared to CC Hunter? Or raid-wide dps improvements from Burg in general? Not really my problem, it's more like the problem of those funny people who claimed many different things about burgs and now... look funnier. Bottom line - I don't think we need to have some sort of undisputed dps advantage over other classes. Not if it turns out to be a cheaply designed bribe for sticking with bugs, bland skills, low reliability, low survivability etc.
Originally Posted by Tulcavaryar
Hunter survivability needs to be buffed so that a leveling hunter doesn't get 2-shot by sigs level +1 (my hunter was level 74 with 3.8k...isen sigs could 2-shot me).
That particular buff (not-being-3,8k) depends on our decisions and issue can be resolved via not following stat-stacking path all the time - either with crafting or with reward selection. After leveling is done - being 4 or 6k might feel different. Until first one-shot. We recognize the same problem, though in different areas.
Yellow line...is not broken, tested it out 1.5 weeks ago...best SOLO line, solo'd an elite master troll in great river...and seems that it is possible to solo nemesis spiders....if VERY careful, and (w/ legacies but not counting consumables) CC is comparable to an LM.
CC breakdown:
Perma-stun 2 targets (strategic use of bard's arrow or cry of the predator allows you to get inductions off without losing CC)
Perma-root 1 target
-40% slow on several targets if target can be slowed
blindslide = interrupt
dazing blow for corruption removal/panic induction time/interrupt
debuffs:
B/P/E debuff on multiple targets with penetrating shot
incoming damage debuff on trapped targets
buffs:
can cure whole fellowship of poison at once, instead of single-target only...+poison resist rating 10s duration (BTW acid = a kind of poison...so good to use in Roots for buff, does not cure though...as we know)
SUMMARY:
Yellow line should stay CC or change to a buff/debuff role...tanking is not a hunter thing even though there is a time and a place for it. Hunter DPS needs major buffing to allow us to be #1 single target dps (but not #1 when it comes to many mobs). Hunter survivability needs to be buffed so that a leveling hunter doesn't get 2-shot by sigs level +1 (my hunter was level 74 with 3.8k...isen sigs could 2-shot me).
You only were able to do that in the Limlight because of three factors.
1. Mobs have no CC resistance.... most elites since moria have been root/slow resistant. That changes the game enomously. Roots and slows are a hunter's bread and butter.
2. Mobs are landscape friendly to kiting. If the mobs were stacked up where you couldn't kite like this you would also see a change in your success rate. Fears would also be dicey at best when the mob could run the wrong way and bring back friends.
3. These mobs hit like girls.... I can take 4-6 hits from them and not have to run back from the rez. Elites in other areas, skirms ect. can easily one or two shot a hunter, especially one not raided out in gear.
Yellow line needs to condense the trap line bonuses... sorry don't need in combat traps, strong traps and debuff traps as separates. Combine them and then bring in some CC debuffs for the traps. Traps are nearly useless in PVMP due to pots and tne new "arrogance" system brought to you by our dev.
Hunters need an active threat dump or transfer. Thanks... nothing added to our dps, we can't top it off anyway until we can manage our threat, so it is like getting a 20 oz coffee in a 16 oz cup.... sure I get more coffee but I can't enjoy it.
Fix the bugs/outdated nonupdated skills/ and for god's sake lets start talking Legendary skills and LIs for our weapons. Overhaul here is long overdue and can really free up some space to take hunters in different directions.
That is all... go to the hunter forums for more suggestions. There are some very good things lurking in those unanswered posts.. cough... someone wake up the zombie...
Tydalmir
Last edited by Tinluen; Apr 26 2012 at 09:11 PM.
Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!
You only were able to do that in the Limlight because of three factors.
1. Mobs have no CC resistance.... most elites since moria have been root/slow resistant. That changes the game enomously. Roots and slows are a hunter's bread and butter.
Quite. The recent armour and mitigation changes that have made the previously robust hunter into a glass cannon, make it even more risky to rely on CC. It is even more unreliable and we no longer have the ability to withstand a pounding. And at the same time - we've given up huge chunks of dps to trait 5 deep in trapper.
Sure - in some very limited and specific situations - if there is no proper CC class around - and if you've got a second set of CC configured weapons - ToF can be useful.
Compare that to the wide-ranging utility secondary roles of every other class.
I've played this game for years and Limlight Gorge is the only situation where traiting yellow five deep is useful.
But give us some proper aggro management and survivability and revise legendary legacies and that may change. But here we return to the problem that the only dev input we've had for a very long time was confined to removing a major skill in return for two completely useless ones (split shot and hunter's art). Meanwhile every other class is spouting bubbles left, right and centre, is having secondary dps roles boosted and has an enviable range of active aggro management and practical self heal skills. Hunter self heal skills amount to 'standing around for 5 seconds hoping nothing hits you' that takes up a capstone trait and running into the area where we are more vulnerable than ever and hiting something that can probably two shot us now, for a piteable morale return. We have no effective aggro management tools beyond self-nerfing dps.
To the extent that the hunter works now it is despite the changes.
I been using deep yellow on ToO, lightening wing T2, trash 2nd and 3rd rooms in kin runs. It does the job on the taskmasters, rooting, stuns and fears. Also been using the spring loaded traps for the extra dps.
However - its so fiddly, adn I lose so much of other things that its completely situational and totally not a viable option for the rest of the raid. For the boss in lightening its straight bk to 5 blue in fleet / precision for me.
seems crazy that i end up traiting so much in yellow for basic cc in a raid at the loss of dps and ipower regen its a total loss imo.
the 5% dps boost to the raid from spring loaded traps is a waste of time on the boss. I have to waste 2 traits, break my rotation, and lose dps. Its also too fiddly, and getting close to a boss is not a good idea these days now that we are so squishy.
good idea to raise this thread up the list. keep posting hunters. ZC has a lot of work to do imo to iron out the creases. Its evident that he started something, came up with some ideas, some good, some that need improving, and then moved on.
please zc when you do return please tone down the overly-tech chat . just try and listen and apply your expert knowledge to tuning us up. we know you know your stuff, no need to prove it, just listen and use your talent for improvements and try and look beyond the defensive reactions.
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