Thread: Silmarilion TV series

After watching HBO's Game of Thrones, i must absolutely urge the lotro community to insist on the idea of a Silmarilion TV series done with a similar budget and fashion as Game of Thrones. I think The Silmarilion and the epic tales it encompasses cannot be done in movie trilogy format and that hour long episodes are required to bring the Bible of Middle Earth to life. if you agree say YEEEEAAAAAHHHH!!!!

I'd have to say no. The Silmarillion is far too complex to make a movie about the whole thing. The best you could aim for would be something like a movie about Beren and Luthien, or perhaps Turin, but even then you run into massive problems translating it into a screen presentation.

Originally Posted by Booserati

After watching HBO's Game of Thrones, i must absolutely urge the lotro community to insist on the idea of a Silmarilion TV series done with a similar budget and fashion as Game of Thrones.

Maybe not the budget aspect... Game of Thrones had a low budget. This is why the big battles are almost entirely avoided (Tyrion is never knocked out in the books before battle; he rides with the barbarians and actually fights; same with the Battle for Riverrun with Robb). Simply making the dragons cost the franchise a lot, I heard.

I, too, would like to see the Silmarillion brought to some sort of screen, but I do not want its epicness to be diluted simply because there isn't enough money to fund the CGI workshops required to bring Nírnaeth Arnoediad to life.

Maybe a petition for donations would be best instead?

I wonder how they would depict the Girdle of Melian! Would it be a thing you could see? There's so much in the Silmarillion that I can't even imagine!

Turin's story would be a real pain in the butt to make a TV episode out of...

If it were done, it would have to be someting like the HBO productions because they tend to have better production quality. I would hate to see it on something like SyFy with lots of badly done blue-screens and other low production values. Overall the stories are so complex that I think that translating it to a screenplay would be very difficult. Plus you would have to have a very long set-up to the back story for it to make any sense to people who aren't Tolkien loremonkies.

All that being said, however, my vote for which excerpt to chose would be the story of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin. I think it is a more managable size of a story and still has all the love/death/big time battles, that make for popular movies.

Originally Posted by Silchas

All that being said, however, my vote for which excerpt to chose would be the story of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin. I think it is a more managable size of a story and still has all the love/death/big time battles, that make for popular movies.

I think if one were to combine the stories of Tuor and Maeglin, that'd make for a very good drama...

Originally Posted by Booserati

After watching HBO's Game of Thrones, i must absolutely urge the lotro community to insist on the idea of a Silmarilion TV series done with a similar budget and fashion as Game of Thrones.

Nobody been able to get any rights from Chris Tolkien to do anything with the IP. I do not see this situation changing. The only piece in play is the part that was sold by Professor Tolkien to pay his tax bill - The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

I suspect that IF authorization was given - it would be for big screen implementation like the Peter Jackson movies. I can not imagine Chris or anybody else allowing a hack job for a TV show.

Originally Posted by mychemguy200

I think if one were to combine the stories of Tuor and Maeglin, that'd make for a very good drama...

My thoughts exactly

i understand the concern for a diluted product that would be a tv series, i only mentioned id rather see it as a tv series because the silmarilion is too large and epic and needs the 10, 1 hour long episodes to do it justice. 3, 2 hours movies wouldnt do it justice. especially with PJ hacking parts out of it because he feels that "it was the worst part of the trilogy" as he said about the scourge of the shire, as if it were his place to decide that. . .

I dont think he said that the Scourge of the Shire was bad, just that it messed up the flow of a movie after the big evil was destroyed. If Sauron wasnt dead 5 chapters earlier then it may have been included.

The biggest problem with adapting the Silmarillion - whether for cinema or TV - is that it is essentially a collection of myths. The narrative often jumps for a few decades, many characters die and others come to their place, which makes their total number considerable. Besides, some part of the story have very narrow focus, while others are extremely epic in nature (i.e. the battles).

If it is ever adapted, I believe TV is a better choice, due to the scope of the story, but it won't work as a single TV series, but rather as a collection of mini series, under a common theme. This way, you can focus on the pivotal moments in Middle Earth, like: the flight of the Noldor (and the fate of Feanor); the Battle of Endless Tears; Beren and Luthien; Turin and the dragon; the fall of Gondolin; Earendil's voyage and the final victory over Melkor.

I believe a good approach is the Sharpe series, which is actually a collection of TV films with the same main character. Otherwise, I don't see how it will work, as the story spans over more than 400 years, and there is a very uneven story pace.

In actual fact its 572 years between the death of Feanor and the final overthrow of Morgoth, so as you say, very difficult to pace out. And thats not even factoring in the probable millennia before they even leave Valinor.

That would be a lot of commercial breaks!

The fact is, the Silmarilion is pure gold mine. A lot of people love the lord of the rings. The silmarilion is more epic in scale and has a lot of beautiful stories that just put LotR to shame. it needs to reach a wider audience via media somehow

Originally Posted by Booserati

The fact is, the Silmarilion is pure gold mine. A lot of people love the lord of the rings. The silmarilion is more epic in scale and has a lot of beautiful stories that just put LotR to shame. it needs to reach a wider audience via media somehow

I agree. It is too easily dismissed as just being "biblical" by many people who truly do not understand or enjoy what professor Tolkien achieved. If you want to read something interesting, read reviews of the work at the time it was originally published.

My digression aside, it would be nice for it to find a larger audience.

I agree with the OP - it could be done, though it'd hate to see it massacred.

It would have to be done largely with the understanding that you have read the book beforehand.. simplifying the plot to make it understandable to someone who just walked in off the street is not acceptable, or "narrowing the focus to just the story of beren and luthien".

There would often be big gaps in the timeline from one episode to the next, big jumps in geographical setting, certain characters might not be seen for long periods - the audience just has to deal with it.

Most of the epic battles are depicted in the Sil without any character-level dialog or story - imagine Helm's deep if the fellowship weren't there! Invent some dialog so we can watch the sons of Feanor ride off to their doom, or just go with the voice-over and montage approach?

The real sticker is the first chapter. Very brief treatment from a CGI montage, then you have all these Ainur around, in their early struggles against Melkor.

Again, some dialog creation will be necessary for a character level story, you can't do the whole thing in voice-over montage.

This is where the quality of the writing is paramount.... I could actually tolerate a few rough edges in the special effects, so long as they don't take too many liberties with the story line, or suffer poor dialog/acting.

Not a good idea IMO.

There is no over-arching story in The Silmarillion that a TV series could latch on to and make central, which is the key requirement as I see it for a series: of course, the idea of a movie is even less credible.

The book is a series of episodes, some of which have links (albeit at times somewhat tenuous) but nothing substantial. There's also far too little detail in many sections for anything like a 'realistic' screenplay to be developed.

No, I'm afraid I don't see this credible. One could perhaps consider taking a section, there are several chapters which are detailed enough to be made into screenplays, however I don't see any purpose in doing so, it seems to me it'd be a very unsatisfying end result.

Actually, there is a common story arc - the very name of the book suggests it: the theft of the silmarils by Morgoth, and the attempts of the Elves to get them back. After all, if it wasn't for the silmarils, the Elves woouldn't have gone back to Middle-Earth, wouldn't have warred with Morgoth for so long, there wouldn't be intermingling between Elves and Men, and so forth.

Yet, in the end, it seems very difficult (and expensive) to do thr story justice, so I also think that an adaption (if ever allowed to be made) will be of inferior quality.

Originally Posted by Adanamir

Actually, there is a common story arc - the very name of the book suggests it: the theft of the silmarils by Morgoth, and the attempts of the Elves to get them back. After all, if it wasn't for the silmarils, the Elves woouldn't have gone back to Middle-Earth, wouldn't have warred with Morgoth for so long, there wouldn't be intermingling between Elves and Men, and so forth..

I don't agree, I've always thought the title of the book is misleading (and of course it wasn't JRRT who came up with it AFAIK), the book covers periods of time before and after the story of the Jewels, and many of the stories within it have at best tenuous links and sometimes nothing at all to do with them.

I think you greatly over-state the significance of the Silmarils in the events of the first and second ages, they're a theme that runs throughout but very much in the background and mainly out of sight and as such they'd make a very bad linking theme for a TV or even movie series.

Exactly, why is it not on screens all over the world already? My kinmates seemed to agree that it would work wonderfully in a soap opera format: after all there's just so many unexpected plot twists, side characters that are relatives of somebody, a fair deal of author's convenience (usually called "great doom" or some such), not to mention romance, jealousy etc being a recurrent theme already and so on.

Seriously though, we might need to wait until it passes into public domain, and can then be rewritten for the parts that could be adapted to screen format. Give it a century or two - after all they are filming other "old carp" like Jane Austen so I wouldn't be surprised if Quenta Silmarillion (I guess nobody is actually suggesting that Akallabeth etc should be in the same series?) eventually gets filmed.

The book could be treated as just source material, and what you are actually filming is mostly your own creation. But a TV series could make sense, maybe similar to many historical series, take for example Shingen (samurai-era series that was made in Japan in the 1980s). The glue to keep the series together could be a set of characters rather than the war of the Silmarils or any such. For example, have Finrod or Maedhros as your narrator and the main characters come from his crew. Big battles, Beren & Luthien etc. could mostly be some montage scenes and the bread and butter is how your main characters react to these events. Would make the story way more manageable but would still capture a lot of the epic first age.

And after all, this kind of stuff is already done in pen&paper RGPs - I suppose there have been a few first age campaigns, though third age just has happened to be way more popular. But we've seen the late third age exploited over and over and it gets a bit boring - anybody who's been a Tolkien fan for 3 decades or more will be quite eager for a breather!

My recollection is that Professor Tolkien did use the name "The Silmarilion" in letters to his publishers. However, the book that he was referring to is absolutely not the same book that saw publication, which, for better or worse, was the result of his son's efforts. The different books that make up the Silmarillion would be impossible to capture because you do have too many disparate foci. The Quenta Silmarillion, however, is well contained around the story of the Silmarils. The fact that it contains several very important subplots is only a part of it's structure as a myth cycle. I still hesitate to imagine a decent production, tv or movie, that could capture the breadth of the story even for just the Quenta.

I think it could be worked into several films Star-wars style rather than a single movie or a trilogy or a TV series. The first film would cover all of the really early stuff and perhaps finish at the Noldor's arrival in Middle-earth, or with the Darkening of Valinor. Second film would cover the events up until Beren and Luthien who would then make up the third film. Turin for the fourth and then the remainder for the fifth.

That would cover the epic fantasy we see with the Valar in the beginning, down-to-earth battles, romance and tragedy all in five films. Surely a success.

The trouble with covering any of the stuff from before the theft of the jewels, is that it shows that the Valar could simply swat Morgoth if they chose to. Present that to a film audience and "why didnt they just fly in on an Eagle" would pale in comparison.

Originally Posted by Gauddan

The trouble with covering any of the stuff from before the theft of the jewels, is that it shows that the Valar could simply swat Morgoth if they chose to. Present that to a film audience and "why didnt they just fly in on an Eagle" would pale in comparison.

LOL!

Good point.

Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar

I don't agree, I've always thought the title of the book is misleading (and of course it wasn't JRRT who came up with it AFAIK), the book covers periods of time before and after the story of the Jewels, and many of the stories within it have at best tenuous links and sometimes nothing at all to do with them.

I think you greatly over-state the significance of the Silmarils in the events of the first and second ages, they're a theme that runs throughout but very much in the background and mainly out of sight and as such they'd make a very bad linking theme for a TV or even movie series.

Apologies, I was actually referring only to Quenta Silmarillion, I keep forgetting that the book (as compiled by Christopher Tolkien) contains also the Song of the Ainur and Akkalabeth. I don't think that the Song of the Ainur will be of ineterest to adapt anyways, while the Numenor story works quite well on its own.

Originally Posted by Gauddan

The trouble with covering any of the stuff from before the theft of the jewels, is that it shows that the Valar could simply swat Morgoth if they chose to. Present that to a film audience and "why didnt they just fly in on an Eagle" would pale in comparison.

Is that what it shows? Considering Melkor held them all at bay, and then some, prior to the coming of Tulkas, plus considering the massive ordeal the earth underwent during the First War of the Powers and to a lesser degree the Second War I don't think it really shows that.

Besides the Valar forsook the elves who went back to Middle-earth, they were outcasts. I think this coupled the the said fear of altering the world further could easily be explained in the film like we had Galadriel at the beginning of FotR explaining about the Rings of Power etc. Essentially I think the 'film proper' would have to start with the elves leaving with Orome to Valinor, or at least with the awakening of the elves. The film would need 'real people' to sustain it, not just the Ainur.

Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar

I don't agree, I've always thought the title of the book is misleading (and of course it wasn't JRRT who came up with it AFAIK), the book covers periods of time before and after the story of the Jewels, and many of the stories within it have at best tenuous links and sometimes nothing at all to do with them.

I think you greatly over-state the significance of the Silmarils in the events of the first and second ages, they're a theme that runs throughout but very much in the background and mainly out of sight and as such they'd make a very bad linking theme for a TV or even movie series.

The Silmarils were the cause of just about every major event in the first and second age of ME. the exile of the noldor - because of the silmarils. Beren and Luthien - a silmaril played a big part in that, kinda how beren lost his hand. practically all of the kinslayings - fall of doriath, the teleri docks in valinor etc were over the silmarils.

yes there is an underlying story, its the silmarils. lets do some silmaril 101 - they are the last thing in middle earth that still retains the light of the trees of valinor. even the mighty valar want them to recreate the trees. those three jewels hold all that is left of a utopian age. thats a big deal, im sure they could go off of that for a tv series.

Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath

Is that what it shows? Considering Melkor held them all at bay, and then some, prior to the coming of Tulkas, plus considering the massive ordeal the earth underwent during the First War of the Powers and to a lesser degree the Second War I don't think it really shows that.

Besides the Valar forsook the elves who went back to Middle-earth, they were outcasts. I think this coupled the the said fear of altering the world further could easily be explained in the film like we had Galadriel at the beginning of FotR explaining about the Rings of Power etc. Essentially I think the 'film proper' would have to start with the elves leaving with Orome to Valinor, or at least with the awakening of the elves. The film would need 'real people' to sustain it, not just the Ainur.

This is true, however since Tulkas was around the whole time of the War of the Jewels, they could have stepped in again. My point is that a cinema audience wouldnt wrap their heads around the whole world-altering thing, and you would just be left with a supposedly good set of gods that sit on their hands while the good guys get slaughtered.

Of course, the alternative is that they portray the Elves as being a lot darker, which isnt unreasonable considering all things done by Feanor and sons. Then you have the audience looking and saying "why arent there any good guys in this yet?"

to my understand, most of the sons of feanor were pretty evil, in fact the book states several times that their oath made them twisted. So Thingol, and Turgon and Beren and Luthien and Huror and Barahir and Galadriel, i mean the list goes on of likeable heroes and what not. dont forget the story of the edain that were faithful to the elves pretty much all of them were heroic and likeable. and out of the 7 sons of feanor, Maedhros and Maglor ere the most loathing of their oath so they are potentially likeable characters as well. at least i liked maedhros a lot.

there's enough here to make a trilogy of movies i think we all agree on that.

the thing is, there is too much in the book for just a trilogy. if we break it into parts it'd be, the creation of Ea and the first war with melkor and the valar, the awakening and migration of the elves and the age of bliss under the trees, the destruction of the tress and the exile of the noldor, then youve got Eol the dark elf's story, the fall of doriath, the fall of gondolin, the story of beren and luthien, the story of the numernoreans(this should be in there somewhere as it basically sets up aragorn's claim to the throne in the third age, then there is the house of Hador and the house of Beor i know im getting out of order here but you see? one trilogy wont do thats why i suggested a tv series where you'll get 10 1 hour episodes, thats 10 hours for this book, thats what it needs!

...why am I seeing "Heavy Metal," but with the Simarils instead of the Loc-Nar?

Originally Posted by Gauddan

This is true, however since Tulkas was around the whole time of the War of the Jewels, they could have stepped in again. My point is that a cinema audience wouldnt wrap their heads around the whole world-altering thing, and you would just be left with a supposedly good set of gods that sit on their hands while the good guys get slaughtered.

Of course, the alternative is that they portray the Elves as being a lot darker, which isnt unreasonable considering all things done by Feanor and sons. Then you have the audience looking and saying "why arent there any good guys in this yet?"

That's what I mean. The whole deal with the Flight of the Noldor was dark and the audience would be led to believe that anything outside of Valinor was forsaken. Eventually, particularly after the death of Feanor when the Noldor try to establish themselves in Middle-earth, the audience wouldn't have quite such a cold view of them. Certainly by the time we get to the third film (perhaps Beren and Luthien) and people have seen the hardships the elves have had inflicted upon them I'd imagine they'd become the 'good guys' in the minds of the viewers.

Let us not forget it isn't as though the Valar don't interfere at all. With the last film the Valar would finally intervene but only after Earendil had made his plea for forgiveness and pardon on behalf of the people of Middle-earth. Thus the audience would have the full picture as to why things played out the way they did.

Originally Posted by Bauglin

...why am I seeing "Heavy Metal," but with the Simarils instead of the Loc-Nar?

So who's gonna play Taarna?

I've long thought The Silmarilion would make the coolest movie(s) out of all of Tolkien's major works. But it is such an excellent saga, so nearly perfect, I would hate to see any attempt at all unless it was a major studio with major funding, nothing short of what P Jackson did with the trilogy.

Pretty sure it is stated in the first chapter that Melkor was the greatest of the Valar and that in fact (read the quote in H.O.M.E books?) he had greater power than all the others put together , in the beginning.

But , at the end of the War of Wrath when the Valar finally came face-to-face with him again, Manwe was "astonished" (?) at his loss of stature, and could no longer daunt Manwe with his presence.

Presumably from having frittered all his power on Balrogs, winged drakes and other horrors.

Originally Posted by Nemulas

Pretty sure it is stated in the first chapter that Melkor was the greatest of the Valar and that in fact (read the quote in H.O.M.E books?) he had greater power than all the others put together , in the beginning.

But , at the end of the War of Wrath when the Valar finally came face-to-face with him again, Manwe was "astonished" (?) at his loss of stature, and could no longer daunt Manwe with his presence.

Presumably from having frittered all his power on Balrogs, winged drakes and other horrors.

Indeed in the beginning he was stronger than the other Valar combined, though Tulkas was the tipping point. However by the time the War of Wrath comes along Morgoth had spent huge amounts of his power in his corruptions and into Arda itself. Though even at that point he was still the single most powerful being in Ea.

Silmarillion the Cartoon
Silmarillion the Anime
Silmarillion the manga
Silmarillion the comic book
Silmarillion the T-shirt
Silmarillion the Cereal
Silmarillion the lunch box
Silmarillion the toilet paper
Silmarillion the Flame-thrower
.....and for the young kids a Melkor doll with transforming ability to turn into Morgoth (batteries not included)

If you have seen the movie spaceballs you will understand what that is all about.

OK back to topic

For a tv show even one like Game of Thrones will be a hard thing to make and sell to audiences not known to the stories. They would need to focus on of the story lines while neglecting the rest. And somehow it will have to tie into the hobbit & LOTR for audiences to understand that they are connected with one another.

Doable....certainly but i dont see it happening within the next 10 to 20 years. Also Christopher Tolkien will never give up the rights for it.

I'd love to see this done,big fan of the Silmarillion,more so every time I re-read it ,but I dont think C Tolkien would give up the rights to it yet unfortunately ,but you never know(fingers crossed).
Also I think the only way you could do it proper justice is to do it in the same format as BSG the last few years ,and hope it could land decent backers and screen writers to do 3 to 4 seasons of 10 or so hour episodes, just have to hope it grows more in stature and popularity and garners the interest for someone to pick it up and convince CT that it would work , heres hoping.

A TV series would be great, but then again...imagine the end... no, it would be to much. The five battles of Beleriand and the last great battle would be impossible to do.

I think a movie series like Harry Potter could do it. Though I wonder how the start of the novel could be done. Remember the Silmarillion would be boring as hell to the average viewer. They would have to do some things to not make the movie drag. The pace would be slow, and that's not a bad thing, but they can't have 3 hours feels like 10. So what do we have that can make things...exciting...

Visual Effects can make the creation of Ea and Arda *amazing* to watch. Plus the music of the Ainur and the battle with Melkor.

Tulkas fighting Melkor would be another good one. The destruction of the lamps too, that was a huge thing really. The battle at Uttumno and Ungoliant...

To be honest, I take back what I said. There is some very good potential for exciting parts. I would love to see the Kinslaying and the battle of Feanor with Melkor.

i would like to see it done but at a time when the economy is better. if they do it now with the economy the way it is they woudlnt get enough viewers to make it good and not cheap (as i say i cant help but think of half of the shows on The HUB that my sister watches) i also think it would work best if done in three or more series wiht a title like The Silmarilion: **** so that non-readers of the book would now they are the same but also different.

however on the bad side in order to keep the readers happy the non-readers probably wont be and vice versa