Still waiting for the nerf to the Trickster trait, as it will be THE MOST TRAITED TRAIT for Burgs after RoI, like Strong Draw is for Hunters
I'm guessing that after RoI's launch ZEAL will get the nerf bat. Because regardless of role or trait just about every character will slot that. Why? Because the devs MADE it so.
Are they going to take away our " - induction skills power cost" and "- focus skills power cost" too? Every hunter i know uses them. And our class books - 100% of hunters on Withywindle runs with them. Uh, my warden uses spear all the time. And my RK is wielding rune stone and uses satchel 24/7....im scared! Come on ZC - because we play MMORPGS doesnt mean we are idiots, or 12 years old children y'know? Please dont treat us like this.
I'm pretty sure that every class has to deal with having at least four legacies on a single LI that are considered "must-haves" for their primary role in groups. I don't think that Hunters are exactly alone in that regard.
Oh, most certainly there are even more than 4 that can fall into the "needed" category for all classes.
But where other classes use two to cover cost and damage, the hunter need 4. And if we want to add any of the other "needed" major legs, they clock in as 5th and 6th.
Oh, most certainly there are even more than 4 that can fall into the "needed" category for all classes.
But where other classes use two to cover cost and damage, the hunter need 4. And if we want to add any of the other "needed" major legs, they clock in as 5th and 6th.
And, to add, they don't matter anyway, because we run out of points to spend by that point. If the cost of those legacies was reduced, it would be one thing, but they are still extremely expensive.
I love how hunters are supposed to be 'on par' with RK's. An RK I know can crit for over 10k. Any hunters able to do that?
The fact remains, that hunters are fast reaching the point of serving no role in the game other than teleport specialists. RK's are ranged, and can hit as strong as a hunter, and crit for higher. They also can heal, if needed. There are people out there that, for varying reasons, (other than just preference) play a hunter. It is an easy class for those with just one hand, for example. Or those who are not good at up close and personal, while also not having a good memory for all those other quickslot buttons.
I freely admit coming from another MMO. That game had reached a point where raids advertised for players "any but hunter" because hunters became so useless. I find it sad to see this game going the same way.
I love how hunters are supposed to be 'on par' with RK's. An RK I know can crit for over 10k. Any hunters able to do that?
The fact remains, that hunters are fast reaching the point of serving no role in the game other than teleport specialists. RK's are ranged, and can hit as strong as a hunter, and crit for higher. They also can heal, if needed. There are people out there that, for varying reasons, (other than just preference) play a hunter. It is an easy class for those with just one hand, for example. Or those who are not good at up close and personal, while also not having a good memory for all those other quickslot buttons.
I freely admit coming from another MMO. That game had reached a point where raids advertised for players "any but hunter" because hunters became so useless. I find it sad to see this game going the same way.
Firstly, big crits don't mean they're on par or not on par with us on DPS. Secondly, 9k heartseekers aren't that hard to get with focus buff, BH + devastate.
Firstly, big crits don't mean they're on par or not on par with us on DPS. Secondly, 9k heartseekers aren't that hard to get with focus buff, BH + devastate.
Umm no. You simply need a lot more info to make that kind of statement. OF COURSE you can score 9k heartseeker against a critter 60 levels below you while you have IDOME, Dev, and a gazillion other buffs.
Strip all that away. UNBUFFED, against even level target. Do this 500 times with a hunter and do that 500 with a rk. I have both classes and I guarantee you that the RK will consistently score MUCH bigger max damage than a hunter. Under the simple conditions I set, a hunter will rarely if ever score above 1.5k. Easy for a RK to EC 3-3.5k.
But then, who cares about max damage? I'd be happy to just get things on an even and fair playing level. Why do we need to have + damage on TWO legacies, for induction and focus attacks, artificially doubly our cost? Why do we have two - power cost on TWO legacies, again for induction and focus? Ditto with -threat. Its like whoever designed it deliberately went out of their ways to make it as inefficient and costly as possible. And why can't we get a dev like the RK who actually LIKE the class that he is supposed to be a representative for. I love my RK but a person will have to be really dishonest to not see that RK has more love than any other class period, from its design, the way it works, to its powers, flexiblities and even weaknesses.
Umm no. You simply need a lot more info to make that kind of statement. OF COURSE you can score 9k heartseeker against a critter 60 levels below you while you have IDOME, Dev, and a gazillion other buffs.
Strip all that away. UNBUFFED, against even level target. Do this 500 times with a hunter and do that 500 with a rk. I have both classes and I guarantee you that the RK will consistently score MUCH bigger max damage than a hunter. Under the simple conditions I set, a hunter will rarely if ever score above 1.5k. Easy for a RK to EC 3-3.5k.
But then, who cares about max damage? I'd be happy to just get things on an even and fair playing level. Why do we need to have + damage on TWO legacies, for induction and focus attacks, artificially doubly our cost? Why do we have two - power cost on TWO legacies, again for induction and focus? Ditto with -threat. Its like whoever designed it deliberately went out of their ways to make it as inefficient and costly as possible. And why can't we get a dev like the RK who actually LIKE the class that he is supposed to be a representative for. I love my RK but a person will have to be really dishonest to not see that RK has more love than any other class period, from its design, the way it works, to its powers, flexiblities and even weaknesses.
Two quick things:
(1) Two DPS legacies that cover crits for all of your bow skills. Two power legacies that cover power costs for all of your bow skills. Most other classes have legacies that increase the damage of single skills, not entire groups of skills. Most other classes with -power cost legacies also have at least two power cost legacies as well. You're not getting shafted in this regard.
2) You not only have a dev like the RK [dev], you have the exact same guy.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Currently and basically since Moria..lightning has been the most OP mode of RKs and possibly any class, my buddy stopped playing his RK because it was too much an I win button. After ROI we shall see...I think basically speaking RKs will probably be more than us in damage still..and I think to maintain the gap we will have to work harder. That said no one really knows till they get there and play with the gear. RKs currently can get over +30 crit magnitude just from gear if I understand right..traits can buff it even more but maybe tact crit magnitude is gonna be a lot harder to come by.
I understand the frustration though...my buddy has an RK that he can scribe sparks more than my heartseeker (not on average and only basic HS)..kinda stupid considering one is on the run with what 10 sec CD, one is 2 sec induction stationary and 2 min CD. I really hope lightning doesn't stay that insane.
Currently and basically since Moria..lightning has been the most OP mode of RKs and possibly any class, my buddy stopped playing his RK because it was too much an I win button. After ROI we shall see...I think basically speaking RKs will probably be more than us in damage still..and I think to maintain the gap we will have to work harder. That said no one really knows till they get there and play with the gear. RKs currently can get over +30 crit magnitude just from gear if I understand right..traits can buff it even more but maybe tact crit magnitude is gonna be a lot harder to come by.
I understand the frustration though...my buddy has an RK that he can scribe sparks more than my heartseeker (not on average and only basic HS)..kinda stupid considering one is on the run with what 10 sec CD, one is 2 sec induction stationary and 2 min CD. I really hope lightning doesn't stay that insane.
General consensus from Beta seems to be that lightning is losing its top-end spike damage, but should have more consistent base damage instead (actually, that's not just general consensus but ZC's assertion). Tactical crit multiplier is going away - it's not on RoI gear at all. Also, the few folks who have bothered to parse anything for Champs, RKs, and Hunter are finding that sustained ST DPS is about the same on all three. (Oh, and Fire might become the preferred group line for RKs now).
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
(1) Two DPS legacies that cover crits for all of your bow skills. Two power legacies that cover power costs for all of your bow skills.
Umm no. For crits there are a total of FOUR if you want to talk about covering all the bow skills. The crit for induction, the crit for focus, the crit for QS which is neither, and the crit mag which only applies during precision stance. And of course if you want crit for your off hand you have to use even more legacies for things like Melee Crit Rating, Melee Crit Multiplier, Low Cut Crit, etc. We WISH only 2 legacies can cover the crits.
Most other classes have legacies that increase the damage of single skills, not entire groups of skills.
EXACTLY the same as hunter. There are a few legaces that increase the damage (not crits) to single skills not a group of skills : Heartseaker Damage, +Bleed Damage, BurnHot Damage. We WISH there are legacies that increase the damage (again not crits) of a group of skills.
2) You not only have a dev like the RK [dev], you have the exact same guy.
I know, emphasis being on the first part of your statement. He LIKES the RK. Can you show the hunter community that he has the same enthusiasm for us based on anything he has said anywhere? No, I can't either.
That fact that it practically took an uprising on the feedback for them to backdown on letting our AOE legacy have an affect on the new, well, AOE skill, should speak volume.
Geez that explains a lot actually.........no one can serve two masters.
You'll either please one and not the other or please neither.
Appears to me ZC favors the RK's over Hunters based solely on his long gaps in communication with us.
It would really be nice to have a dedicated Hunter Dev.........not holding my breath waiting for that to happen though.
All of the changes in RoI (not just the Hunter changes but skirmish skill reset, LI system reset leading to a new LI grind, Class reset etc.) just leaves me not wanting to tackle the game and relearn how to play on my 4 lvl 65's let alone my other 4 alts. The grind due to changes has reached the point where I fear it has gotten the better of me and I will probably not play for some time due to burn out.
Geez that explains a lot actually.........no one can serve two masters.
You'll either please one and not the other or please neither.
Appears to me ZC favors the RK's over Hunters based solely on his long gaps in communication with us.
It would really be nice to have a dedicated Hunter Dev.........not holding my breath waiting for that to happen though.
All of the changes in RoI (not just the Hunter changes but skirmish skill reset, LI system reset leading to a new LI grind, Class reset etc.) just leaves me not wanting to tackle the game and relearn how to play on my 4 lvl 65's let alone my other 4 alts. The grind due to changes has reached the point where I fear it has gotten the better of me and I will probably not play for some time due to burn out.
I understand now. Burglars and RK's both do equal sustained dps as a hunter as of ROI. Both have other roles they can fill as well.
What good are hunters? Hunters are the beginner class for those that are new to MMO's. That is what ZC is aiming for. They port people around because it's cool, but they have no other function anymore, other than as a toon for those that, for whatever reason, cannot or will not roll a different class.
You can learn the basics of the game on a hunter quite easily, but once you have that down, you are meant to start another class, put out the time, money, or tp to get that one leveled up, and forget your hunter unless you want to farm, craft, or port somewhere.
I do have a hunter, but rarely play her, as I play LM to my husband's hunter. But it has become clear to me that this game, like so many others, is going to have one class so nerfed that it is basically useless in instances past level 30. Oh, it can run in them just fine. But all the hunter is, as of now, is a fill-in for when there are no burgs or RK's to run.
Thank you ZC, and LotRO, for helping so many loyal hunters decide to find another place to play. We did it with WoW, and as soon as we have explored RoI content, we will probably do it here. If there is no end-game content, and you have reached end-game level, why stay?
Short answer, no. Longer answer, pushback from the Hunter community when even a new AOE skill is introduced tells me that messing with Stealth would be looked down upon. Keeping Camouflage as a thematic one-of skill feels like the right place to be for now.
That's right - because we think the new AOE skill as described is half-baked and useless we're certain to scream and shout if a currently nearly useless skill is made useful.
Of course that's how we'd react.
Maybe some content-rich communication over the months would have obviated our somewhat negative response to your:
'Here's a poke. It really stinks but trust me there's a pig inside.' approach.
Now this is a deep and relevant question. A direction we are going in as a team, is to allow more classes to preform a competent secondary DPS role. This has a danger: besides an occasional CC, our damage dealing classes have little utility. As such, bringing a class like the Bulgar to Hunter DPS levels would make for horrible imbalance, unless the Hunter simultaneously received a suite of tools and tricks as deep as the Burglars. It is unlikely we would want to make a change that impactful, so the secondary DPS classes will have to remain secondary. That said, getting closer to top tier damage then they were before has been one of our goals for such classes.
Yes, it is a difficult balancing act: buff them too far, and pure damage dealers become less valuable. However, it is a balancing act that we are moving forward with. This means a few things. First, as can be seen in this update with the changes to stances, additional AOE capabilities, depth added to the Trapper line and the changes to the Champion, we are adding more options to our DPS classes. We're not turning them into hybrids by any stretch, but peppering in some additional variety. Second, the dps on "secondary" classes will be inched up on a class by class basis. Third, the primary damage dealers should always be capable of a respectable step above the secondaries. I very much understand the concerns you bring up here, and I share them.
Until a few weeks after launch, try not to put too much faith proclamations made on these forums about how much or little damage one class or another does (exhibit A: claims that 65 RK's out damage 75 Hunters.) RoI has a lot of deep level changes to the whole game. While we have our own internal testing as well as beta, you all will be the ones who really figure out how to make these classes run optimally. If after that, Hunters are getting out dpsed by Burglars (or any other non-dps class) then we will make appropriate changes.<snip>
I am not too sure how well this balancing act is going. Unless I am mistaken (which is often the case) the Hunter class hasn't been touched in seven months.
Meh, I'm quite confident we will hear from ZC on the friday before Memorial day, because it will give him 4-5 days to go on another well-timed "vacation". He will ask us many questions which he will promise responses to and then get pissed at us when we expect him to reciprocate.
A week or so later he will respond, promising changes that will be made before some deadline. He will plan these changes, and go on a 3 month vacation to reward himself for all of his hard work. The time of the promised update will come sometime during ZC's bi-annual 6 month vacation, so it will not be implemented. Also: Instance Finder!!!
Meh, I'm quite confident we will hear from ZC on the friday before Memorial day, because it will give him 4-5 days to go on another well-timed "vacation". He will ask us many questions which he will promise responses to and then get pissed at us when we expect him to reciprocate.
True, I reckon Zombie_Columbus will follow his trend and ask the players, 3 weeks before the expansion, what they would like to be changed.
True, I reckon Zombie_Columbus will follow his trend and ask the players, 3 weeks before the expansion, what they would like to be changed.
Hey ZC! Please prove these folks wrong!
Seriously -- grab your fireproof apparel of choice and rejoin the conversation here. I don't expect any dev to be a frequent poster. But some new communication every 1 or 2 months would be GREATLY appreciated.
I shouldn't laugh but I can't help it... I actually forgot that this thread had ever started. "With your host, Zombie Actually Dead". Should we call the police and file a missing persons report? I think 7 months should be enough to get their interest. Although, the forensic trail will be cold. I hope someone has his dental records kept safe.
I'm such a mischief maker... Still, I wonder what Zombie makes of it all... (cough)...
We all know that ZC (turbine) will do nothing (I would bet 10g on it) with Hunters. Its been 7 months as we all know since any changes (for 2 new skills that aren't that good) have been made and since then how many forums posts have we made on the hunter forums? A couple good thousand if I count the number of biggest threads on the hunter side of the forums. What class do creeps water at the mouth when they see? Hunters, why cuz they are still in the days of Pre-ROI lost looking for ZC to guide them to their full ability. I have talked to and read posts from many people who have rolled many classes including hunters and they all agree that hunters are the worst updated in all of LOTRO ATM.
I just have one question plain and important, "Why have you abandoned me(hunters)?"
No use calling the Po Po. Everyone knows they're as pissed at ZC as the hunters are. Every since ZC took on upgrading the police department, all they've gotten were deeper cup holders in their cruisers and an extra inch on their night sticks - Its extra reach, for free, don't complain!
But then months later ZC promised 5-O he'd take another look at them, and the officers made all kinds of suggestions only time find he gave most of the updates to the Fire Department instead.
I am not too sure how well this balancing act is going. Unless I am mistaken (which is often the case) the Hunter class hasn't been touched in seven months.
No mistake, we are stale. Like week old bread. Yummy.
I still think we have amazing dps though. We just have no way to manage threat. If that was fixed, I wouldn't care about all our other broken skills that aren't level-scaled. We need some way to maintain sustained DPS without getting aggro. With a half-decent tank, I can get aggro just spamming QS in endurance. That means I can do great DPS, but I can only use 1 skill the entire fight and still die.
On a side note, how many of you are using the Threat Down legs? Anyone have any evidence of them really working worth a damn?
Please fix hunter survival, we used to be able to take a punch..now in tower, I get hit twice and there goes Scorp down. And what is all this gear, jewelry with might and agility...what happened to agil, fate, morale or something like that. Please also fix strength, its useless now wow 10% ranged, at least give us something else too
What about removing some of ourselves inductions, I mean every other class doesn't have as much as induction as Hunters do.
and what are you going to do with Trapper set?
“A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities.” -J.R.R. Tolkien 85 Loot Goodies
I still think we have amazing dps though. We just have no way to manage threat. If that was fixed, I wouldn't care about all our other broken skills that aren't level-scaled. We need some way to maintain sustained DPS without getting aggro. With a half-decent tank, I can get aggro just spamming QS in endurance. That means I can do great DPS, but I can only use 1 skill the entire fight and still die.
I second that - except for one point:
If you can grab threat from a tank spamming QS in Endurance that tank is not half decent. Yes, our threat situation is fragile, but not THAT fragile. You may have been exaggerating there.
If you can grab threat from a tank spamming QS in Endurance that tank is not half decent. Yes, our threat situation is fragile, but not THAT fragile. You may have been exaggerating there.
QS seems to crit an awful lot, which should be a good thing. It just comes back to the same old, same old. Previously we had the survivability to pull deliberately when the circumstances permitted it. Now, when we are pulling even easier, this can be fatal.
And in a game where every man and his dog has bubbles and/or great healing skills why are hunters the only class dependent on Guardians being great at their job?
It's insane that at a time when we're more vulnerable than ever to melee that the most often available healing skill we have is melee triggered.
Developers need to have a little more respect for us as paying customers. And I have paid plenty. I invested a lot of time and a lot of money playing the one class I wanted to play. It was Not a glass cannon. If I wanted to play a glass cannon I would have played something else.
But after many hundreds of hours of time and many hundreds of pounds invested in the product ZC just swans in and turns the hunter into a GC. It's just not on.
The awesome theoretical dps is not a compensation. In the end it does feel we have just been left out of the development cycle. Other classes have been upgraded to account for the new game mechanics (during which time Wardens have been broken) and we just limp along.
Hunters always could perform roles that required taking a punch. i'd like that back somehow. Preferably without a stupid bubble. If Press On became an instant parry/dodge skill with a cooldown more in line with other classes equivalent survival skills and beneath notice dropped aggro that would be a good start.
As it is Press On requires the luxury of being left alone for a long time and Beneath Notice just stores up trouble leaving us still reliant on another class pulling aggro back. I'm sure we've all been in those situations where we've unloaded our max dps from BN and then find we can't shake the aggro.
This isn't 'working as intended'. It's unanticipated outcomes of changes in game mechanics remaining unaddressed because we have had no dev time and no amount of 'only run with super-awesome tanks' or variants of 'self-nerf your dps by doing x'
advice can alter that fact.
If you can grab threat from a tank spamming QS in Endurance that tank is not half decent. Yes, our threat situation is fragile, but not THAT fragile. You may have been exaggerating there.
Ok, it was a wee bit of an exaggeration. But not much of one. I usually get bored after 15-20 seconds and fire off a SB and/or a couple PS. But as was noted above, QS does crit a lot and I believe those crits build up threat pretty fast, S:E regardless. If I fire off 4-5 2k+ crits in a row, its pretty hard on the average tank.
The point is that we should not be *dependent* upon having a great tank to be able to play our class to its fullest. We should have some tools available to help drop aggro. Not delay it, drop it! I'd love to see more positional play too. Perhaps something like: shoot arrows from *behind* the tank, and the mob will think the threat is coming from the tank.
Ok, it was a wee bit of an exaggeration. But not much of one. I usually get bored after 15-20 seconds and fire off a SB and/or a couple PS. But as was noted above, QS does crit a lot and I believe those crits build up threat pretty fast, S:E regardless. If I fire off 4-5 2k+ crits in a row, its pretty hard on the average tank.
The point is that we should not be *dependent* upon having a great tank to be able to play our class to its fullest. We should have some tools available to help drop aggro. Not delay it, drop it! I'd love to see more positional play too. Perhaps something like: shoot arrows from *behind* the tank, and the mob will think the threat is coming from the tank.
If by "play our class to the fullest", you mean being able to do the most DPS you can, then I have to disagree on principle that Hunters (and Champs, RKs, and any DPS classes) should not be dependent upon having a great tank. If we had a game in which you could do top tier DPS and not take aggro from a less than top tier tank, then what incentive do the tanks have to become better at their class? Do you really want a game in which tanks don't need to be able to play their class to the fullest to be able to hold aggro over DPS classes that play their class to the fullest?
Group play in an MMO is a team effort - sometimes the team members are going to have to adjust their play to compensate for the weakest player, and if that weakest player is the tank, then the DPS classes are going to have to hold back, frustrating though that may be.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
If we had a game in which you could do top tier DPS and not take aggro from a less than top tier tank, then what incentive do the tanks have to become better at their class? Do you really want a game in which tanks don't need to be able to play their class to the fullest to be able to hold aggro over DPS classes that play their class to the fullest?
How about survivability, raid awareness, boss positioning, and whatnot? After all, a 22k morale tank who knows how to properly position mobs/bosses will be much more easier to play with than a 10k morale tank who drags everything on to the healers, even if you completely take aggro out of the picture (which no one is suggesting, simply ways for managing our threat without nerfing our dps). And there already are "less than top tier" tanks that can hold aggro from anything, they're called wardens! So long as you work with them and they know what they're doing, with those threat leeches they can hold aggro vs anything. But with guardians...as it stands now I'll frequently pull aggro if I play 'to the fullest', even if they're equally geared and working just as hard.
How about survivability, raid awareness, boss positioning, and whatnot? After all, a 22k morale tank who knows how to properly position mobs/bosses will be much more easier to play with than a 10k morale tank who drags everything on to the healers, even if you completely take aggro out of the picture (which no one is suggesting, simply ways for managing our threat without nerfing our dps). And there already are "less than top tier" tanks that can hold aggro from anything, they're called wardens! So long as you work with them and they know what they're doing, with those threat leeches they can hold aggro vs anything. But with guardians...as it stands now I'll frequently pull aggro if I play 'to the fullest', even if they're equally geared and working just as hard.
In both the Champion and Guardian forums there are posts detailing how a Guardian can grab aggro at the very start of the fight and hold it against any and all DPS classes - the Guardian post even shows some fancy charts and, in a private discussion with the Guardian himself, he mentioned that the method works against multiple DPSers who open up with all they've got and parse about 2,500 DPS.
The guardians you're referring to may be working just as hard, but either they're not utilizing the method the above referenced posts describe, or you're dishing out way more than 2,500 DPS. (Frankly, if I understand the method correctly, it shouldn't matter how much DPS you do - you could do 10,000 and I think that the method would work.)
Sorry for a lack of links, but I'm a bit lazy. The Champion thread is titled "Champion DPS" or something like that, and the Guardian thread is something about threat... I think. Sorry. :P
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
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