Thread: Hunter Q&A with your host, Zombie Columbus

Pull up a chair, friend. It's been a while since we talked. Yes, yes, I know I should have been here sooner. I'm sorry, it is my nature to sit back and listen when perhaps I should talk. But no matter, you are not here to hear of my personal problems, are you? No, you want to know more about your precious, don't you...

NDA has been lifted, but Dev Diaries are not all out yet. You've heard about all the fantastic and frightening changes to items and stats. You've read about what overpowered things that vile other class received and some of the hideous nerfs the hated ZC is forcing on you, hmmm?

Well, I can't promise you the sun and stars, but I have been and will always try to be transparent. During these dark times before the expansion hits and you see first hand what the future brings, there is the unknown. And the unknown is scary, isn't it? Of course it is, it's our nature to fear the unknown, to fear change! And rightly so. For all the good it can bring, change also bring closer the entropy that ends all, eh? As beings of order in a universe of chaos, we all must strive to maintain the world about us! We are not horrible creatures from beyond the veil of... eh... what was i talking about again?

Right, MMO classes. Hunter changes in Rise of Isengard. Philosophies of the class you know and love. Intentions for the future. Regrets of the past. My shoe size. Ask anything you wish, but be ignored at your own peril! I'll be on and off over the weekend, chatting when I can.

Originally Posted by Delotha

A)Aftercasts,animation delays and immediate skills not being immediate.Three fundamental flaws with hunter class are not being addressed,in fact they are even more profound in ROI.Why oh WHY?

The only significant change to timing issues for the Hunter in this update was the beta version of Improved Quick Shot. Upon player testing, it was changed to no longer have an "aftercast" delay. RoI does not include a massive overhaul to our combat code, but it should not exacerbate any of the issues you have listed.

Originally Posted by Delotha

Systained dps output.Hunters need to be on par with with runekeepers and champions.Period.I m not asking to be the "king of single target DPS" but I do ask for my dps output to be at least comparable and SYSTAINABLE during a boss fight with the other 2 pure dps classes.

RoI includes SIGNIFICANT changes to stats, and therefor damage, of all classes. It is our intention that Hunters be on par with Rune-keepers and Champions when it comes to DPS. Sustainability is a different issue, and one with as many or more variables. Do you use SotE? Do you swap into Endurance Stance when the fight gets long? The Hunter has tools to deal with long fights, and it is my hope that the new Hunters Art skills gives one more. But you have to be willing to pay for the additional Power...

Originally Posted by Mithernil

My question: what is the envisioned role of the hunter now and what is it supposed to be in the future in relation to the other classes prime group roles:

I see variations of this question come up often, so let me say loudly and clearly: The Hunter is primarily a DPS class. This means he should be, when properly geared and played, on par with the Champion and RK. There will always be fluctuations based on personal gear/traits, length of fight, target type, AOE vs single target, group composition (for buffs/debufs) and player skill. Between those 3 classes, each brings different toys to the table. With RoI, we are extending the support role Trapper plays, adding utility to swaping stances based on opponents, and giving some more AOE capabilities.

Originally Posted by Spiriel

The absolute most important question is a two parter:
1. Why nerf Strong Draw into oblivion?
2. When are you going to restore Strong Draw to its current glory?

Because the trait was essentially mandatory, and with it Penetrating Shot was always the correct way to spend Focus. Bringing the cost up to 3 allows us to buff Penetrating Shot and makes other Focus gated skills worth using.
Strong Draws former glory was that every Hunter, regardless of traitline or role, had to use it if they wanted to be efficient. It will never be returned to that level of potency, nor will any trait remain that potent if I can help it.

Originally Posted by Spiriel

5. Why have an AoE skill that has such a small radius that you can't hit more than 2 targets?

(Split Shot) Because conservative constraints on area of effect and target count allow up to be more liberal with damage amounts and power cost. Also, the AOE legacy now works on the skill, and the Hunstman line increases the targets by 1.

Originally Posted by N.Legler

Is the current direction of class changes intended to reinforce the 'jack of some trades' aspect every class has ?

To a certain degree, yes. Few classes in LOTRO have only one role across all 3 traitlines. But as mentioned above, such migrations do not change that the Hunter should be a master of the dps trade.

Originally Posted by Thraxz1982

Will we ever get an immediate stance change? Because how it operates now is.. uh... terrible. Isn't the cooldown on the stances enough to keep up from doing ridiculous things like S:S>insert high damage skill> S:P in rotation? I've spent FAR too many burst on the OD trees in endurance because the S:S skill didn't go through to leave this unasked.

This is not something I spent time on for RoI. I will take a look at it moving forward. I would like to direct you at the changes I made to Fleetness; the animation and delay were removed. These are changes we are willing and able to make on a skill by skill basis.

Originally Posted by Brave.Sir.Robin

-How is the yellow traitline's debuffs supposed to compete with debuffs from Lms/burgs: a little less parry/evade is nothing compared to -20% inc tact damage or +10% damage for the whole grp. Many bosses don't need CC and the debuffing of this line is rather dull.

If the Trapper's debuffs were as potent as the LM/burg, the line would be blatantly overpowered. The Hunter deals far too much damage, especially in RoI with the damage penalty on the line being fully removed. Focus on thinking about the Trapper as a damage dealer who ALSO brings support and raid-wide damage increases.

Originally Posted by Fin.

If I understand it right, burglars keep their debuffs, and their DPS is increased to match ours?

No. Burglar DPS < Hunter DPS.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

The problem isn't Hunters being on par with RKs and Champs. The problem is LMs, Burgs, OP Guards and War Speech Minis also being close to on par with RKs and Champs (and Hunters). Tier 2 DPS is too close to Tier 1 DPS and every other class brings more important secondary rolls to fellowships and raids than hunters. Hunters are brought along to make easy content faster, not to make difficult content easier. If we don't have a clear advantage in DPS over Tier 2 DPS classes then we aren't a desirable class.

Now this is a deep and relevant question. A direction we are going in as a team, is to allow more classes to preform a competent secondary DPS role. This has a danger: besides an occasional CC, our damage dealing classes have little utility. As such, bringing a class like the Bulgar to Hunter DPS levels would make for horrible imbalance, unless the Hunter simultaneously received a suite of tools and tricks as deep as the Burglars. It is unlikely we would want to make a change that impactful, so the secondary DPS classes will have to remain secondary. That said, getting closer to top tier damage then they were before has been one of our goals for such classes.
Yes, it is a difficult balancing act: buff them too far, and pure damage dealers become less valuable. However, it is a balancing act that we are moving forward with. This means a few things. First, as can be seen in this update with the changes to stances, additional AOE capabilities, depth added to the Trapper line and the changes to the Champion, we are adding more options to our DPS classes. We're not turning them into hybrids by any stretch, but peppering in some additional variety. Second, the dps on "secondary" classes will be inched up on a class by class basis. Third, the primary damage dealers should always be capable of a respectable step above the secondaries. I very much understand the concerns you bring up here, and I share them.
Until a few weeks after launch, try not to put too much faith proclamations made on these forums about how much or little damage one class or another does (exhibit A: claims that 65 RK's out damage 75 Hunters.) RoI has a lot of deep level changes to the whole game. While we have our own internal testing as well as beta, you all will be the ones who really figure out how to make these classes run optimally. If after that, Hunters are getting out dpsed by Burglars (or any other non-dps class) then we will make appropriate changes.

Originally Posted by zalladi

Have you ever given to thought about hunters going further into usage of stealth skills?

Short answer, no. Longer answer, pushback from the Hunter community when even a new AOE skill is introduced tells me that messing with Stealth would be looked down upon. Keeping Camouflage as a thematic one-of skill feels like the right place to be for now.

Aaaaand we're done here! When the dev diary comes out in (some unknown amount of time) I'll be around for more questions. Lata!

Edit: Dev Diary (http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...eveloper-diary) and Discussion (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...eveloper-Diary) are now up!

When ROI is released where will hunters fit with regards to burst dps(power no issue) and sustained dps(power conservative) in comparison to other classes?

Dear ZC:

Doesn't being a zombie violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics and all the good entropy-related stuff?

Was making the hunter 'focus deprived' an intentional move to deliver more of a challlenge to sustain maximum DPS? It seems many classes are getting changes that increase the skill cap (potential when used effectively) and decrease 'base effectiveness'.

y did u change strong draw when it was one of the best traits and now we r gonna be sucking focus like a mofo?
and y dont u guys open bullroarer alrdy when all the NDA stuff is alrdy out here

First of all,thanks for opening this thread ZC.
Before I start my wall of text let me be clear on a couple of things:

1.Ive been playing Lotro for 3 years ,and hunter is my main and ONLY toon.I consider myself a regular raider and an even more regular pvper.For the purpose of this thread ill leave the pvp aspect of the class out of my comments.
2.I understand that much work has been put into redesigning the hunter class for ROI ,to a point that certain key elements of that design have been set in stone and cannot change.

So,with that in mind,let me voice my concerns:

A)Aftercasts,animation delays and immediate skills not being immediate.Three fundamental flaws with hunter class are not being addressed,in fact they are even more profound in ROI.Why oh WHY?
Aftercasts:No,let me repeat that,NO,i dont want to press a skill and then wait x amount of time biting my fingernails even if that means that you have to add to the induction time of a skill.It feels unresponsive,it feels laggy ,it is not fun,period.
Animation delays:Purge poison(5 secs root effect),intense concentration(not so intense if u need 2 whole seconds to perform it)
Immediate skills:Stance change&needful haste(remove it from skill queue already,they NEED to be immediate)

B)Focus burn:A good focus burn rotation was the difference between mediocre and good hunters.It added to the class' complexity and gave hunters something to think instead of mindlessly pressing 3 buttons.Please,revisit your decisions on the focus generation-focus cost skills part of the hunter revamp

C)Systained dps output.Hunters need to be on par with with runekeepers and champions.Period.I m not asking to be the "king of single target DPS" but I do ask for my dps output to be at least comparable and SYSTAINABLE during a boss fight with the other 2 pure dps classes.

D)Mobility.For too long now have we been restrained by long inductions and "stay still to fire that skill" restrictions.Lotro has evolved since SoA and so have its raids that many times require constant movement.For a hunter,as it is now,movement=no DPS(loss of focus,no inductions).Make the hunter more flexible:All focus skills fire-able on the move and needful haste cutting focus conts to half.

Ill stop right here ,I ve ended up writing half a novel.I do hope that the class as it is now is not what we will see in ROI.It just seems,how can i put it nicely..."not fun to play with".

Thanks for your time.

Hello CZ,
first of all "chapeau" for showing up!
secondly to your very much appreciated offer of Q&A.

My question: what is the envisioned role of the hunter now and what is it supposed to be in the future in relation to the other classes prime group roles:
As I see it now, the prime Role of:
Guardians: tank
Minstrel: healer
Burglar: debuffer
Captain: buffer
Loremaster: cc
Champion: DD (multiple targets)
Runekeeper: DD with strong healing potential
Warden: DD & tank
Hunter:? (started off many years ago as the glass canon, classic nuker, now?)
Are we ranged DD (single target, multiple targets ?), mix of ranged and close combat DD, secondary CC?

What are we, where are we heading towards? There must be some kind of vision in regards to our future role....

Best and many thanks,
Mith

Hello, thanks for this opportunity.

First batch of questions I have on my mind:

#Do you intend to continue design hunter's role in group as primary single target damage dealer?

#Do you think our threat management is ok, while we are performing single target dps(in group environment) as best as possible?

#Guardians know that Wardens are the only real competition for their primary group role (tanking), and same the other way. Which class is supposed to compete with hunter in high end sustained dps? With recent changes; champions, rks and burglars all can achieve almost same results as hunter, some even better, is this intended?

#Do you have a date in mind for the legacy pass?

#What do you think about making the trait Heightened senses inherent passive for hunter? In PvE almost noone wants to sacrifice some dps trait just to be able to track that few stealth mobs in game, and in PvMP it is almost necessary trait.

#Since you said you don't want to tie stances to roles, it means we will change stances more often depends what is currently most appropriate? If so, can the silly long animations when we change stance be removed?

Has the uncomfortable 1s aftercast on IQS been lowered/removed? Would rather the skill was left alone than to have this change which seems to have been made for no real purpose. I do realize that there was a purpose and once it had been made it was clear the skill was overpowered but the new change doesn't seem to work.

Is split shot an aoe or not?

To me it seems like the changes that have been made happen to leave the hunter gasping for focus almost constantly. Is this the actual thing you intended to happen?

The absolute most important question is a two parter:
1. Why nerf Strong Draw into oblivion?
2. When are you going to restore Strong Draw to its current glory?

Other musings:
1. What is the real purpose of Endurance Stance, and why give it 5% Parry Chance?
2. Is SotE bugged? It only tics 4 times even though it's a 5s channel
3. Any chance of increasing the Improved Focus buff duration or maybe moving it to Intent Concentration?
4. Why nerf Needful Haste? (I probably don't care about this if Strong Draw is fixed)
5. Why have an AoE skill that has such a small radius that you can't hit more than 2 targets?
6. Any chance at love for Merc Shot? Even on live the focus cost is really high. Come Isenguard I'm not sure I'll use it at all... even for corruptions. (again, with strong draw this becomes less of a problem)

Every post should have some positive feedback:
1. Like the new stance independent buffs to bowmaster
2. Press Onward changes are very good

Here you go, slightly modified from the post in the other thread:

1. Where have you been? Just a tip, but being silent for 4 months is not an effective way to be transparent. It is not the fault of players that they are exasperated with a.) many of your bizarre changes, b.) your total lack of communication about them, so the sarcasm in your op here is a bit wide of the mark.

2. How do you justify nuking focus burn by removing strong draw?

3. Or: why after all those awesome improvements to the flexibility of the class in the last update, which you justifiably congratulate yourself for, are you taking a bunch of flexibility away by again tying traits, stances, and playstyle, right after you made them all so interchangable?

4. by gating skills behind unsustainable focus costs and making power/icpr hard to come by are we not back to traiting and gearing exclusively for power and focus and thereby gimping flexibility if we want to sustain dps? Alternatively, doesn't this favor burst dps as the only route to more flexible builds? Are you not, then, forcing us into particular playstyles, particularly if we want to remain competitive for group roles? Why was this decision viewed as favorable?

4a. Relatedly, why eliminate the cd on PS but gate it behind unsustainable focus unless you want it to primarily contribute to burst dps only?

5. Why are you making it harder for hunters to do sustainable dps? Since you aren't adding to peak dps relative to other classes (and perhaps significantly reducing it) what possible role do you envision for the class?

6. can you explain the logic of putting trait and skill bonuses where they can't be accessed by people who need them or appear to have no playstyle logic at all? Namely, +icpr in trapper, +parry on endurance?

7. After making all the skills usable in the last update, why are you going to render so many unusable in this one? Or will you scale the barbed arrow bleed damage?

8. Thanks for doing whatever you did about the aftercast on IQS, that was lame, I'm glad you fixed it. I assume it was a placeholder while you figured out a better solution, but since there has been no communication it was impossible to know.

Originally Posted by Highcyde

3. Or: why after all those awesome improvements to the flexibility of the class in the last update, which you justifiably congratulate yourself for, are you taking a bunch of flexibility away by again tying traits, stances, and playstyle, right after you made them all so interchangable?

Possibly for the same reason Orion is remaking Minstrel completely, or why he's giving Champs a huge boost in all areas while Graal spends about half an hour working on Guards. Not trying to insult the devs, but why are the classes that don't need work being toyed with, while classes in desperate need of attention (Burgs and Wardens have one or two useless traitlines, why not fix them before spending so much effort messing up other classes) are being brushed off to the side? Go figure.

Anyway, who knows what ZC is thinking. Maybe this is all some genius idea, and we'll go to RoI and find that hunters are better than ever.

Is the current direction of class changes intended to reinforce the 'jack of some trades' aspect every class has ?

I want to know where hunters stand in the new ranks of DPS. I might be blind but I don't see where other classes got a 50% single target DPS reduction compared to ours (since beta release). Our initial DPS on beta was ~1500 and so was RKs. Through the following revisions I've seen that dwindle down to 1000-1050 DPS on the 65 dummy in E&G.

Will we ever get an immediate stance change? Because how it operates now is.. uh... terrible. Isn't the cooldown on the stances enough to keep up from doing ridiculous things like S:S>insert high damage skill> S:P in rotation? I've spent FAR too many burst on the OD trees in endurance because the S:S skill didn't go through to leave this unasked.

What are the chances of us getting a 0.5s induction IQS instead of the aftercast?

Why did the bleed on barbed arrow scale REALLY badly? Its gone from 153 to 165 per tick (<10%) while our DPS has grown 100%.... why should we ever use it when the additional dps on the bleed is ~5 and our base DPS is 1000? It's too expensive an ability in time and power for such a low tick. It's back to lolBA again, hehe.

It's alive! It's alive!

First off: Thank you for having our melee being made stronger without weakening our range skills too much. I love the new skills and especially how the traitlines are gaining a lot of strength yet are remaining distinct from each other.

Currently my only concerns are with Split Shot being part of our AoE, its interaction with CC and how our DPS will compare to other classes.

EDIT: It seems there are more Inductions in the current Beta build and thus my concern with Fleetstance is void. I still want to know that there is an empirical, consistent and verifiable approach to balancing not only our class in a defined role, but the rest of my alts as well in relation to the Hunter.

1. Thanks for beginning some Q & A. We know you're busy, but even just a few posts will trick us into believing we are being heard lol, and that is more than half the battle.

2. Thanks for the changes to allow Resolute Aim to affect Press Onward. Seems minor, but for PvPers, it is a thumbs up.

3. Strong Draw - Incredible Sad Face - Why change it?

4. I love to hybrid (4R 3B, 3R 4B, 2R 5B) but I fear that I will not have many options come RoI. To gain maximum benefit from traitlines, I have to slot all Bowmaster or all Huntsman. I don't like this trend, and was formerly under the impression that the Capstone Legendaries were the benefits to slotting so deep in a line. Why has this been changed? Sad Face I feel like I'm being forced into a cookie-cutter trait set up.

5. Barbed Arrow - Not scaling makes it the old laughable Barbed Arrow Sad Face

6. Please let me compete with other DPS-heavy classes. I cannot even be dominant in my only role in raids. Sad Face

I don't think ZC will be able to read everyone's questions if they are long multi paragraph reply.

Anyways, why can't I steal Frodo's ring? I really want it.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

... This process, coupled with our data showing Hunters sitting quite nicely on the dps charts.....

Where does "quite nicely" mean? If it's not 1st or 1st equal, what do you see as the point of the class? To be 2nd tier AoE? to be a fill in CC'er? If I wanted to do either of those things I would play a champ or lore-master. So whats the guts?

I believe it was Bill Cosby said I don't know the secret to success, but it's not trying to please everybody..maybe post a forum poll on what our class should be..I believe I know what the answer will be, but you should work to that, and not toward everything but.

Here's a question. Why are you moving in the AoE direction, as opposed to strong single target DPS, which is what we have historically been and have rolled our hunters to be? If you plan on nerfing our single target DPS to raise our AOE DPS, then you're effectively making the hunter sub-par at everything we're supposed to do *well* in addition to being second-rate AOE behind the Champion.

If you plan on raising our AOE at NO cost to pre-ROI single target DPS, then I have less to worry about.

6 months ago we had this from ZC.

An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Hunters
I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

From that post till now we had crickets.
My hunter question is since playing LOTRO from the beginning when will we have consistent communication from the Devs? Its bad enough to not have any back and forth but to be teased with a line of communication and have it end in nothing? How is this post going to end? 30+pages without another blue response?

Not saying I hate this game. Not saying I am gonna rage/quit. Just want to be what the hunter is stated as in character creation. King of Single target DPS!

Shouldn't Split Shot add 2 Focus? And Barbed Arrow as well for that matter?

(using build from live)
Quick Shot, 0.9s induction, +1 Focus
Split Shot, 1.3s induction, +1 Focus
Barbed Arrow, 1.3 induction, +1 Focus
Improved Swift Bow, 1.6s induction, +3 Focus

The induction for both skills falls right in-between Quick Shot and Improved Swift Bow. Logic dictates that the Focus generation should also fall right in-between those skills. We're hurting for Focus with the Isengard changes and modifying those two skills would help a lot.

First, I just want to say, thank you for some awesome changes in the past. The last update that buffed the hunters was amazing and the Huntsman traitline was in a great place.

Also, thank you for a) making Press Onward awesome and b) giving us skills besides ports in the expansion.

I have two questions:

#1: As a math and chemistry double major, I like data. Could you please tell me how you do internal testing on comparative DPS (balancing between classes)? How many trials, standard deviation, mean DPS expected at level 75 for Hunter and Runekeeper? Where should the Hunter sit on the charts in your mind?

Main thing is I'm tired of having people compare two parses and say "OMG the RK is so OP..." or vice versa. I would like to get a blue post that explains that you do waaaaay more testing than they do. I would also like to know your method.

#2: Why are traits that make sense to go together in different lines?

e.g. the two traits that buff Rain of Arrows with regards to crits are in different lines. Arrow Storm resets cooldown of Rain of Arrows on a crit and is in the Huntsman traitline, whereas Hail of Arrows increases RoA's chance to crit and is in Bowmaster.


Again, thank you for your attention to the community, and I hope that the naysayers don't get you down, because some of us still have faith in you.

Originally Posted by rewrando5

First, I just want to say, thank you for some awesome changes in the past. The last update that buffed the hunters was amazing and the Huntsman traitline was in a great place.

Also, thank you for a) making Press Onward awesome and b) giving us skills besides ports in the expansion.

I have two questions:

#1: As a math and chemistry double major, I like data. Could you please tell me how you do internal testing on comparative DPS (balancing between classes)? How many trials, standard deviation, mean DPS expected at level 75 for Hunter and Runekeeper? Where should the Hunter sit on the charts in your mind?

Main thing is I'm tired of having people compare two parses and say "OMG the RK is so OP..." or vice versa. I would like to get a blue post that explains that you do waaaaay more testing than they do. I would also like to know your method.

Very nicely put (I'm a Political Science major). It could be done by pitting the Hunter variables (gear, skill rotation, traits) in an equation/program against a Raid boss and thus theory-crafting a balance as the group ElitistJerks has done in WoW. However theory-craft has serious flaws of application in an instance: does the player stand-still or move? It also wouldn't take into account human error/discretion such as traiting In-Combat Traps or a less-than-optimal rotation that uses CC skills.

I did consider the need to factor in the party composition and buffs. A Loremaster might be debuffing armor or reducing tactical resistance. Minstrel melee/range buffs would come into play as well. There's just too party combinations that could really skew the results. It's safest to use just use an unbuffed character for both empirical parses and theorycrafting.

In short, there's so many variables that could be used to skew the results that I tear my hair every time someone posts a so-called conclusive parse. It would be great for the devs to do a good amount of unbiased parses to compare the theory to empirical data. Some transparency on the inter-class testing would go a long way towards dispelling hysterics.

One final thought- accumulating enough data to establish a 95% confidence level might be time intensive, but it would eliminate any doubts.

My question is why mess around n change so much to a class, that the consensus was, ina pretty good place furfilling it's primary role (dps) and couple dabble in secondary roles and be somewhat effective (CC)?

It may be a bit bland, but the only real changes we needed were the new skillz (whatever they may have been, split shot etc) you get from gaining 10 lvls and the proper scaling of things (barbed arrow, bow of the righteous, even something like campfire).

Maybe make a few other minor changes like add stealth tracking to a passive trait, instead of a wasted class slot, maybe make press onward an insta-cast but with a longer CD (say 10 mins) and scale it properly. Also giving the hunter some type of self heal thats half-way decent (no our little baby one off a parry response does not count) like every other class in game currently has woulda been nice.

As for the new quick shot ... shoulda just been an on the move insta-cast w/ 2-3 sec CD. Prob. solved .... and for the LOVE OF GOD! fix the 3rd shot of ISB back to match the 1st 2 shots, that was just a stupid nerf to begin with.

Even with seemingly boring changes and upgrades as these I can assure you this forum would have been more then pleased (for the most part) mainly b/c we didnt get beaten with the nerf bat that we are all used to. too late

Also, i'm not sure if this is relative but has the overall DPS of weapons been lowered? I've heard mentions of this and seeing as though our DPS is purely physical this would be a significant blow to our already lowered dps.

All these changes just seem, to me anyways, to be very similiar of when Moria was relased and we got another 10 lvls. Hunters got some nice skills, weapon DPS jumped up alot (too much) and were basically gods for a few months until we were nerfed into obilivion. Im not asking to be back into Moria release mode but dont make us keep payin the price for that. Now it seems with our next 10 lvls its, ok lets add this, but careful ... dont bump it up too much, remember what happened before ... ok so nerf this n change this to compensate.

IMO if hunters are not #1 or very least #1a in single target dps we are basically useless. Any other role in a fellowship/raid can be preformed better by another class. Not it's not like we are that diverse to where we can drastically switch roles in the middle of a run and be effective, everything requires traiting, so the *jack-of-all-trades* class is out the window ... so what are we? Besides the red-heades stepchildren of lotro that is.

Originally Posted by Mithernil

Hello CZ,
first of all "chapeau" for showing up!
secondly to your very much appreciated offer of Q&A.

My question: what is the envisioned role of the hunter now and what is it supposed to be in the future in relation to the other classes prime group roles:
As I see it now, the prime Role of:
Guardians: tank
Minstrel: healer
Rouge: debuffer
Captain: buffer
Loremaster: cc
Champion: DD (multiple targets)
Runekeeper: DD with strong healing potential
Warden: DD & tank
Hunter:? (started off many years ago as the glass canon, classic nuker, now?)
Are we ranged DD (single target, multiple targets ?), mix of ranged and close combat DD, secondary CC?

What are we, where are we heading towards? There must be some kind of vision in regards to our future role....

Best and many thanks,
Mith

Umm...what's a "Rouge" ?

Thanks for your respond, ZC.
My concerns are about:
stances, legendaries, legacies and traits.

Here they are:

1. Stances
Whats the concept behind our stances?
If we supposed to switch, why are they so c lunky?

In fact, as a huntsmen player, I dont see me using Stance: Strenght with RoI at all. So theres no differnce to my current situation.
Because theres no focus generation... And it bugs me if i have to abadon the +10% damage increase

The Champion, for example, got one stance primarly designed for damage, called "Fervour", which gives him increases melee damage and the highest fervour generation of all his stances.

So a hunter needs focus to do damage and in the best case a damage increase. But this two aspects are splitted over 2 stances. Why not give both stances a focus generation and give precision the block and evade reduction back?

To balance this idea, here are my thoughts:
A hunter should not move to maintain his damage. In my opinion it would be fine if the hunter suffers under a movement speed penalty if he is in his damage stance. So you have to stance dance if your solo or have to move in group play (A slowed animation where the hunter aims whould be kool ^^). For PvP hunters the underpowered "Fleetness" could negate this penalty temporary.

2. Legendaries
Some of these are still not legendarie at all, what do you do against that?

Bards Arrow
Minstrels got a non legendary which ist better because it got no CD, and they are not even a CC class.

Fleetness
Even if i look at the RoI "Fleetness" it's bad.
Let me explain:

Non legendary got:
-60% miss during movement
+10% runspeed
Cost: 6 Focus
Duration 15 secs

Legendary got:
-60% miss during movement
+10% runspeed
1 Focus every 5 seconds
-15% indcution
Cost: 6 Focus
Duration 30 secs

What stays?
Right, only -15% inducition and a 15 secs longer duration.
The costs and the focus generation negates themselves. Why not a toggle skill and drop the focus generation?
But at the time being its not quite legendary.

Bow of the righteous
Its a awesome trait, no questions. But if i look to our fellow RKs und Loremasters the got this nice Legendaries which also gives some extra moral or power regen. Can BotR get added such goodies too?

3. Legacies
Can we get a rework of them?
For example: At the moment the maximum crit multiplier we can get is +25% and +13% (last one only in precision).
We need 3 legacies maxed out for that, while champions only need one for +50%.

If some of the legacies where merged there would be room for a lot new one, good ones.

4. Traits
They also still need a rework too.

Lot of them are questionable or not needed anymore.
And many are missing and/or in the wrong tree.
For example: Why do i need aggro reduction in Trapper of Foes?

The damage trees like Huntsmen and Bowmaster could really need such aggro redution.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Last thing said:
Overall your changes are awesome and giving more flexability... Well exept the "Strong Draw" nerf

Rouge is that red make-up stuff that women wear

A Rogue is generic Medieval Fantasy term for a class that generally specializes in light or medium armor, thievery, short blades, and sneaking about

Since this is LOTRO we can only assume that Rouge=Rogue=Burglar (Yeah, I just made some Math majors either cry or twitch)

Oh, and ZC, don't make me get Mr. T in here to pity you, he doesn't have time for your jibba-jabba, and neither do all of these irate Hunters, me included. We want answers, and swiftly!

lol ZC. funny post.

ok, the questions:

1) Do you consider red and blue lines essentially equivalent in most situations? If so, would you prefer there be more distinction between the two, and how would you go about making them more distinguishable? Also, what is your vision for where each line should excel?

2) Concerning PVE: With the new itemization in mind, is it intended that hunters should focus first and foremost on dps stats? As in, do you feel that encounters are design in a way that is conducive with hunters having every piece of their gear and every one of their relics contributing to icpr, agility, ranged offence, or critical rating? Can we finally make damage our main priority?

3) How does the trait Rapid Recovery keep surviving updates? Am I simply overlooking a fantastic trait?

4) Concerning PVP: Did you feel that an induction-less IQS was too over-powered for PvMP? (This change had a profound effect on the hunters ability to combat melee enemies, especially the type that like to run through us in order to cancel our shots.)

5) Are traps to become a bigger part of the yellow line? For instance, could they perhaps become an integral part of ToF's dps?

6) Why the need in RoI to give ToF hunters such inferior debuffs when compared to other classes? (-900 b/p/e debuff granted by PS and IPS as compared to Counter Defense, and +5% incoming damage as compared to +30% from Oath Breakers) How about some better debuffs, or even some unique debuffs?

7) Many hunters consider our legacies to be somewhat uninteresting and rather lackluster. Do you agree? What would you change about them?

These last two are really more like requests than questions:

8) Do you think Purge Poison would be over-powered if the cast duration was reduced and it were made into a fast skill? How about making it usable on the move?

9) Rather than being forced to stand around at the being of every fight waiting for the tank to build threat, how about giving hunters an ability that helps tanks build threat? (seriously, the waiting gets boring) For example, something that transfers the threat generated by the next 2-3 abilities with a 30-60 second cooldown. This ability would also come in handy for those times where tanks are slow to peel an add off the healer.

Thnx,
Modus

Well first of all thank you for using some of your time ( which with the upcoming release of ROI must be hard to get ) to talk to us hunters. I welcome updates to the hunter class with open arms.... but this time with uncertienty, worrying and a large gap of info, we think we are under dark times and we are the next to be super nerfed amoung a few other classes which have had their role changed some.

my main questions are: what is our role now?
are we gonna be equal to other class dps in single or multi. combat?
how do we fit into the raid or fellowship and be a vital part?
and finaly what do you think of these changes in comparision to the ones in the past and why did u want to change it?(the last one may be from the view point of turbine over all or from you point of view, your choice)

Answer any of these questions if you are allowed to or want to,

Many thanks for your help,
Legonist the Elf Hunter

First: Thanks for responding! I hear the waaaaahmbulance receding into the distance as I type.



My question echoes earlier questions:

We are intended to be, on the dps charts, about where we currently are on Live, yes? i.e. #1 in sustained single-target DPS, and right up there in burst DPS as well? As it stands, on a raid target, I have seen 1000-1200 DPS burst-style (chunks of 40-50,000 damage on Morskor flyups).

However, on the lev 65 training dummy at lev 75, granted with a lev 71 crossbow, my autoleveled dude can barely eke out 1000 dps in a somewhat sustained fashion (power still runs out in precision). It doesn't feel to me like we're single target sustained/burst capable as it stands on BR.

Originally Posted by Thraxz1982

Isn't the cooldown on the stances enough to keep up from doing ridiculous things like S:S>insert high damage skill> S:P in rotation?

Honestly, I don't see why that's ridiculous at all. It'd allow players who are actually utilizing their skills to pull ahead of otherwise (gear and trait build) equal, less skilled/engaged players.

Rewarding smart play is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

Shouldn't Split Shot add 2 Focus? And Barbed Arrow as well for that matter?

(using build from live)
Quick Shot, 0.9s induction, +1 Focus
Split Shot, 1.3s induction, +1 Focus
Barbed Arrow, 1.3 induction, +1 Focus
Improved Swift Bow, 1.6s induction, +3 Focus

The induction for both skills falls right in-between Quick Shot and Improved Swift Bow. Logic dictates that the Focus generation should also fall right in-between those skills. We're hurting for Focus with the Isengard changes and modifying those two skills would help a lot.

Now that, sir, is an excellent idea. If they insist on removing Strong Draw, our builders generating more Focus would help alleviate that.

The one change I really expected to see was the combination of our legacies into -powercost +crit multiplier -threat. Are there any plans for this to happen?

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

NDA has been lifted, but Dev Diaries are not all out yet. You've heard about all the fantastic and frightening changes to items and stats. You've read about what overpowered things that vile other class received and some of the hideous nerfs the hated ZC is forcing on you, hmmm?

You nerfed the hunters, yes.

But the stat-changes are sooooooo much in the Hunter's favor, that your nerfs will be ofset by our higher AGI.

And, let's face it... that's kinda your job at the moment... make sure we buy stuff at the store.... So you nerf people so hard that they need higher stats to make up for them. And thus buy the stat tomes from the store.

And that nerf job, you are doing it brilliantly !!!

Do DEVs get a percentage on the stat-tome sales ? If you don't get a percentage yet, you should really go to your manager and ask for a percentage of the income for any AGI tome that a HTR buys.

You deserved it !

Originally Posted by Blakhen

The one change I really expected to see was the combination of our legacies into -powercost +crit multiplier -threat. Are there any plans for this to happen?

Quote from ZC

Things I'm keeping an eye on moving forward:
Make the difference between Huntsman and Bowmaster more extreme.
Legacy pass.
AOE damage capabilities.

My suggestion is just to get back to the basics. Many of us who have had hunters since beta chose to play one because of what it was advertised to do; high single target DPS. What do many hunter's look forward to doing, linking that 10k crit heartseeker during a raid and hearing the pats on the back roll in; it makes you feel useful, makes raid leaders want to invite you along for more raids.

What I have seen is a trend moving the class away from what it was originally intended. To me this began with the toning down of the DPS in an early update. Then there was a move towards beefing up our melee skills for the purposes of diversity. If a mob is still alive by the time it gets into melee range of a hunter, there is a problem. Then there was a focus on improving our CC, etc, (improved fleet stance anyone?) everything except for ramping up what many hunter players desire most, high DPS.

In an effort to make the class more, interesting, challenging, diverse, etc. we have gone from the role we were designed to play, to a mediocre master of none. Again, my suggestion is to stick with the tour, give us back the top nuker class we rolled in the first place 4 years ago.

I'm just wondering why you felt the need to make such drastic changes to traits and hit focus burn so hard, when the majority of hunters were satisfied with our existing skills and traitlines? You said it yourself in your earlier post - when people were taken aback by your suggested changes, you concluded that lots of people were happy with hunters currently. So why a drastic change, especially to focus burn?

Why add aftercast effects? Prolonged animations? On live, I can hit Improved Fleetness and Needful haste (while in huntsman) and really chain my skills effectively without annoying aftereffects. This "flow" of skills being fired off will be lost with aftercasts. Or do you feel that testers are exaggerating the effects?

Is there anything that can make trapper traitline a viable choice for any hunter?

How about those improved AoE capabilities? Moving a bit over to the champions' territory, but they can rival us on ST DPS so maybe we could have some good AoE to balance things up.

Since many of my questions are already being asked, I will throw out some different ones.

The phrase, "improved skills, rather than more skills", or something quite like it, seems to have been thrown around a lot for RoI.

Passage of... could easily have been consolidated into a single Skill, freeing up two slots on our quickbars. The drawback of having so many targets on the "result panel" would be nullified by separating the panel into three sections or pages. Instead we still have three mutually exclusive skills, including one which is very rarely, if ever, used. The LM's got consolidated Warding Lore, which actually gives them a huge boost to their debuffing (right now in DN, for example, it is an either/or situation whether to ward for Orcfs or Ancient Evil, come RoI one Ward covers both), would consolidating Passage of... really be that big of a deal?

If consolidation is a goal, why is Heightened Senses, a trait that is only used in exactly two places in the game, and both for the same purpose, still a trait? This trait is only ever equipped for tracking stealthed Wargs on the way to Durchest and stealthed Wargs in the Ettenmoors. To my knowledge, Hunters are the only Class that are obliged to lower their DPS to go to the Ettenmoors while all the others, including RK's and Champs, are able to increase their DPS for same. Heightened Senses was a prime candidate for inclusion as a lvl 66-75 upgrade to our tracking skills... instead we get ICPR added to it? We get ICPR added to a trait that is predominately used in the Ettenmoors, the single place in the entire game where ICPR is least important? Why? To make it more useful when traiting Explosive Shot? The one Capstone where Power is never an issue?

Why do other Classes get AoE curative skills naturally, or need to slot a single particular trait for it, when we are forced to trait four deep for AoE Purge Poison? Improved Purge Poison would have made the skill actually useable, instead we are left with either traiting for it and not being an asset to our Fellowship (because there's already a CC Class in the mix) or we simply do without.

Turning Heightened Senses and the AoE Purge into Improved versions of the base skills would have freed up one Trait and one Line Bonus for something else more interesting.

pre·ci·sion [pri-sizh-uhn] noun
1. the state or quality of being precise.
2. accuracy; exactness: to arrive at an estimate with precision.
3. mechanical or scientific exactness: a lens ground with precision.
4. punctiliousness; strictness: precision in one's business dealings.
5. Mathematics . the degree to which the correctness of a quantity is expressed. Compare accuracy ( def. 3 ) .

Why has the -Evade been removed from Precision Stance? The whole point of the Stance is accuracy and yet you seem to have lowered it's accuracy in favour of Focus generation... which would be more appropriate, though certainly not desireable, for Endurance Stance (do I need to post the definition of Endurance too?).

Why was the -Attack Speed removed from Improved Fleetness? First you rescue Improved Fleetness from being the most ridiculed Hunter skill, and get universal praise for it, but then you take away it's defining feature?

The +10% damage bonus from Focus is a nice addition, but useless in a group since someone else is starting the pulls and we have to wait for the tank to build aggro... and using our highest damage skills at the start of combat is almost guaranteed to draw aggro on us regardless. Intent Concentration, on the other hand, has a long cooldown to prevent abuse, but would actually make the damage buff useful.

There was another question I had, but can't think of it right now.

Finally, I'm not going to ask why, but it has to be pointed out that you have had four months to post this thread. That's four months in which these changes could have been discussed and implemented. Instead, very little, if anything, can come from this thread since there's less than four weeks before RoI goes live.

I want to make my point clear, so let me take an example.

Windows is a very successful piece of software. No debate on this, pls, M$ is making lots of money with it.

Windows is changing with every version. This is quite natural, software is easily changed (compared to hardware), so new developments and new ideas can be introduced.

I do not want to debate if Windows has improved in the last 15 years. I would say it has, but thats not the point. My point is: in every new version, you will find things changed that some people will need every day, without a single reason for change. The service that manages automatc updates was called "Automatic updates" in Win 2003, in 2008 its called "Windows Update". The management of installed programs has its name and access changed every year or so. And the list goes forever on.

(The same goes for Office. I´ve given up following the changes here. I have to follow regarding Windows, cause thats my job; Office is just a tool for me, and I dont have to be good using this, so I dont care.)

If it aint broken, dont fix it. M$ is doing wrong on this forever now, and there are certainly some groups of programmers or so-called designers that laugh all day because they are doing needless things and get paid a lot of money for that.

There are certainly things one can learn from M$; but why copy the mistakes they make? Hunters were not broken, why these changes?

I agree with Poppycock about what this class should be, and that is what it started out as. My one question would be what many others have asked in one form or another:

What role will the hunter have in the end?

I am curious what the developers look at when deciding on changes to a given class.

Like for example, the upgrade to the trap damages from 50ish to 90ish. Why is it in the 90 range and not say in the 80 or 100 range?

Is things like damage, duration, inductions etc. up to the individual developer, or do you have a firm formula to go by?
I.e. how much leeway do you have when working with a given class.
(And if there is a "formula", could you say a little about it?

Also, to what degree to PvP affect the choices designing a class?

To what degree do the tests in Palantir influence the values like power cost, dps, cooldown etc. and it the parsed data good enough to make a fair judgement?