Thread: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?

Originally Posted by Laic

So, if im getting it right after reading a bit in the forum and this post, finesse is just a stat that could be compared to the "- X Penetrate Target Resistance" we see now in tactical classes in the way it works, just that finesse works on B/P/E?

Correct. It's also like the Hunter's Breach-finder bow chants.

Without Radiance you were crippled in raid fights. The gloom/dread would make you as ineffective as a lump on a log. An entire raid could wipe if a key player didn't have enough radiance.

Without finesse you will have a harder time hitting more powerful mobs. It will still be possible to hit them, it'll just be a whole lot easier with finesse. The raid will have to work harder to make up for your lessened dps, but it's not something that'll make the fight impossible.

As to the "we've never needed a to-hit stat before"... Agility was our to-hit stat. And to-crit stat. And to-evade. And to-parry. That's a lot to derrive from one stat. And if we're simplifying other things with RoI (resistances), we gotta have something to balance it out so it isn't too simple.

Originally Posted by ElanMorinTedroni

Without Radiance you were crippled in raid fights. The gloom/dread would make you as ineffective as a lump on a log. An entire raid could wipe if a key player didn't have enough radiance.

Without finesse you will have a harder time hitting more powerful mobs. It will still be possible to hit them, it'll just be a whole lot easier with finesse. The raid will have to work harder to make up for your lessened dps, but it's not something that'll make the fight impossible.

I understand how radiance and finesse appear on the surface different but I can think of a dozen ways that they're a lot alike. There's been the argument in this thread that a lack of finesse doesn't make you useless in a fight like radiance did; I would argue that that is totally inaccurate.

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

If someone has never played another MMO such as Rift that has a mechanic like this already let me tell you, it is a gating system and might as well be radiance 2.0 dumbed down. I played Rift and if you didn't have enough points into the equivalent "finesse" stats over there you wouldn't be taken on instances or raids. So what did you have to do? You had to go grinding out t1 instances so you could move on when you finally got the better gear.

Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.

Originally Posted by ThePhobos

I understand how radiance and finesse appear on the surface different but I can think of a dozen ways that they're a lot alike. There's been the argument in this thread that a lack of finesse doesn't make you useless in a fight like radiance did; I would argue that that is totally inaccurate.

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

If someone has never played another MMO such as Rift that has a mechanic like this already let me tell you, it is a gating system and might as well be radiance 2.0 dumbed down. I played Rift and if you didn't have enough points into the equivalent "finesse" stats over there you wouldn't be taken on instances or raids. So what did you have to do? You had to go grinding out t1 instances so you could move on when you finally got the better gear.

Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.

This is getting silly and let me show you why:

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough might/agility you will have a really hard time hitting things for very much damage. If you don't hit things hard enough you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough power you will have a really hard time hitting things because you'll be out of power too soon. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough morale you will have a really hard time hitting things because you will be dead. If you are dead and can't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage (because you're dead).

You can make the same argument for any stat when it comes to one of the most difficult t2 raid challenges in the game.

Being a hero of middle earth I find it hard to believe that you will be frequently missing when you attack your enemy.

Companys dont pay Devs for the time to create a new game mechanic on a whim.

There is a reason for Finesse, it will be important, it will inconvieniance and/or pee a lot of people off.

We just dont know the full details yet.

Originally Posted by ashesofatrocity

Being a hero of middle earth I find it hard to believe that you will be frequently missing when you attack your enemy.

Being a big bad of Middle-earth I find it hard to believe I would get hit very often.

Originally Posted by ThePhobos

I understand how radiance and finesse appear on the surface different but I can think of a dozen ways that they're a lot alike.

Well, I'd be interested in hearing those. You didn't present any of them.

There's been the argument in this thread that a lack of finesse doesn't make you useless in a fight like radiance did; I would argue that that is totally inaccurate.

Well, you'd be missing the point then.

Radiance was a binary/digital gating system. All or nothing, on or off, one or zero. You either had enough Radiance, or you cowered uselessly. There was no in-between, no grey area.

ALL OTHER STATS are analog gating systems. That includes Finesse, Morale, Power, ICPR, your primary attack stat, etc. They're spectra that run from none to all, and there's no predetermined spot where you have "enough". More is better, and it's up to the player to decide how much they want. The game mechanics don't tell you, "OK, you have enough Morale to defeat this boss." That is, again, completely different from how Radiance worked.

Radiance was a hard gate. If you didn't have enough, you couldn't possibly succeed.

ALL OTHER STATS are soft gates. If you are a bit low on them, you can still squeak by with luck and skill. Finesse is no different.

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things.

Replace "Finesse" above with "Might" and it reads exactly the same. That's indicative of the underlying fact; they're similar stats.

Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.

Not at all. "Equally useless" is completely inaccurate there. Without enough Radiance, you could not do anything. Anything at all. You couldn't swing and miss. You couldn't fire off skills. You couldn't move around. Without enough Finesse, you'll miss more often.

These two things are not - remotely - the same.

Originally Posted by ThePhobos

I understand how radiance and finesse appear on the surface different but I can think of a dozen ways that they're a lot alike. There's been the argument in this thread that a lack of finesse doesn't make you useless in a fight like radiance did; I would argue that that is totally inaccurate.

There are people who have done the raids, who have tested the game on beta and who have stated that finesse is NOT the crippling mechanism that radiance was and was not a huge factor in the raids. It makes you more or less effective.

Unless you have done these things too, you frankly have no leg to stand on.

Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.

What evidence do you have to support this? The NDA was lifted. We have access to the knowledge of beta players. What evidence in there supports your claim?

Originally Posted by vtravi

It seems that you will need a certain number to raid with. This sounds like radiance to me.

The difference is that you won't need a specific amount of finesse for a raid. You'll just miss or be resisted more often. Finesse seems like it won't be a big requirement for healers in any case. Plus finesse will help you in day to day adventuring. I assume you will be able to get finesse from perfectly normal jewelry and gear as well. It just does not sound at all like radiance.

Actually I was never opposed to the idea of radiance and I don't know why people got worked up over that. If you did not raid you did not need radiance (and I don't raid so I'm in that camp). If you did raid then getting geared up is a perfectly normal part of raiding, and having to run some 6 person instances is not considered an onerous task by raiders.

There's always a raid gate. Even if it's not formalized in game rules the other raiders won't invite you if you don't pass the gear check.

The real issue with the Moria gear was not the radiance but that it was essentially overpowered compared to the next best gear and so everyone wanted it, radiance or not.

Originally Posted by CWood

I can't speak for other classes, but I'd bet a properly built and played hunter wearing Garb of the Woods and wielding Tongannel's Joy would have stacked up rather well in the Rift. Certainly better than anyone actually using the Rift bow.

That's because in order to get Rift gear you had to go into the Rift and adventure. You couldn't put the gate keys on the other side of the gate, so clearly Rift gear was not a requirement to run the Rift.

Originally Posted by BrianDavion

...completed "the dungeons of grindina" to do "the tower of phat loot"...

This made me spit coffee all over my keyboard +rep

I can sum finesse up and this whole thread in three words.

'Adapt or Die'

simples

Originally Posted by Lohi

I assume you will be able to get finesse from perfectly normal jewelry and gear as well. It just does not sound at all like radiance.

You will. In fact, some examples of things can get finesse from:

- Landscape quest reward gear
- Treasure drop gear (armor -and- jewelry)
- Crafted gear
- Raid gear
- At least one Hunter skill
- A certain crafted RK chisel
- Scrolls of (temporary) Finesse from the store (85 TP, lasts for 90 minutes)

so dose this mean we can put this myth to rest? everyone knows its not radiance? All the dooms dayrs can start freaking out about something else?

Originally Posted by Tennent

I can sum finesse up and this whole thread in three words.

'Adapt or Die'

simples

O rly?
Nobody in this thread showed how finesse is different from, lets say, tactical offense. Seriously. It's the same thing. They consolidate a lot of stats. So they added one stat for b/p/e. Not a big deal.

I never heard ''10/12 BG, you must have 11.5k tactical offense or ####''

Lets say it AGAIN: If you are under the finesse gate, you cower. Plain and simple; If you lack some tact/melee/range off, you may do 95-98% of the DPS of the top geared DPSers. I see a BIG difference. Finesse will work the same way.

Originally Posted by Jadzi

You will. In fact, some examples of things can get finesse from:- A certain crafted RK chisel

Thanks once again, Jadzi.

This makes it apparent just how close the connection is between penetration on chisels and Finesse. They've literally replaced the former with the latter there.

Originally Posted by Leonide

Lets say it AGAIN: If you are under the finesse gate, you cower.

I think you meant to say, "If you were under the Radiance gate, you cowered."

Originally Posted by Aloro

Thanks once again, Jadzi.

This makes it apparent just how close the connection is between penetration on chisels and Finesse. They've literally replaced the former with the latter there.

You've solved the mystery of Finesse. They just wanted people to be able to describe their stats without getting censored in the chat window.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

You've solved the mystery of Finesse. They just wanted people to be able to describe their stats without getting censored in the chat window.

Lol! I wonder if they'll rename the Hunter skill to "Finesse Shot".

Does anyone know yet (approx) how much finesse is needed against lvl 75 mobs/bosses?

Originally Posted by MurkyMajare

Does anyone know yet (approx) how much finesse is needed against lvl 75 mobs/bosses?

Depends how much resistance and b/p/e are you aiming to cut off of them.

Originally Posted by Leonide

If you are under the finesse gate, you cower.

No you won't

Originally Posted by Leonide

Finesse will work the same way.

No it doesn't

Originally Posted by Tennent

No you won't

No it doesn't

Erm. Replace ''finesse'' by ''radiance''. My mistake.

I meant to say that finesse works exaclty the same way as tact/melee/range offense.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Depends how much resistance and b/p/e are you aiming to cut off of them.

*Sigh*

Yes, of course.

But you do need around 100 or around 10.000 ?

Of course you can live with 99% b/p/e, but it is so much nicer to have 0%.

So how much % does each point of finesse reduce?
1 = 1% or 1000 = 1% ?

Originally Posted by MurkyMajare

So how much % does each point of finesse reduce?
1 = 1% or 1000 = 1% ?

considering you get a couple thousand finesse from the draigoch set before adding in anything from jewellery/class skils, i'd expect it'd be closer to 1000 points = 1% than 1 point= 1% (though at the same time, i doubt it'd give that little for that). anyone in beta got some screens of their finesse so we can get a rough idea of what the amounts give?

isn't the mechanic that it reduces howmuch % a mob gets to b/p/e from the ratings that they have for those stats?

so if normally they'd get 1% for 300 rating, now they'll get 0.9% for 300

or have I completely misunderstood?

in any case, it won't be like radiance, and assuming it will be is complete nonsense. it seems to be incredibly easy to acquire, and it's useful in non-raid environment as well, making it just another stat that makes your life easier.

Originally Posted by Lohi

The difference is that you won't need a specific amount of finesse for a raid.

Technically you wont 'need' a set amount of finesse to enter a raid in the same way you dont 'need' to have any class traits or virtues equipped / ranked at present.

Within a relatively short amount of time raid leaders will insist that each raider has a minimum amount of finesse, particularly classes such as tanks. Any items containing finesse that can be crafted will be gated, for example you'll need to be master of the crafting guild plus kindred with the new tribes. Without that you cant buy and craft the new recipes.

Besides, the items with the most finesse, the ones that will really make your raid leader happy will be a grind to acquire.

I'll take finesse over radiance but I'd rather the game stayed as is. Finesse is most definitely a form of gating, I've ready the term 'soft gating' which seems apt.

Originally Posted by MurkyMajare

*Sigh*

Yes, of course.

But you do need around 100 or around 10.000 ?

Of course you can live with 99% b/p/e, but it is so much nicer to have 0%.

So how much % does each point of finesse reduce?
1 = 1% or 1000 = 1% ?

Originally Posted by MajUntagent

considering you get a couple thousand finesse from the draigoch set before adding in anything from jewellery/class skils, i'd expect it'd be closer to 1000 points = 1% than 1 point= 1% (though at the same time, i doubt it'd give that little for that). anyone in beta got some screens of their finesse so we can get a rough idea of what the amounts give?

Originally Posted by mptyspacez

isn't the mechanic that it reduces howmuch % a mob gets to b/p/e from the ratings that they have for those stats?

so if normally they'd get 1% for 300 rating, now they'll get 0.9% for 300

or have I completely misunderstood?

in any case, it won't be like radiance, and assuming it will be is complete nonsense. it seems to be incredibly easy to acquire, and it's useful in non-raid environment as well, making it just another stat that makes your life easier.

Your finesse rating is subtracted from there b/p/e/resistance ratings before their b/p/e/resistance % is calculated. So if you have 1000 finesse, it will be like they lost 1000 b/p/e/resistance. The percentage listed when you hover over finesse is the approximate % it reduces them by, the same way crit defence reduces their crit rating.

Here's some example numbers, finesse rating to approximate percentage.

344 - 1.1%
350 - 1.2%
547 - 1.8%
634 - 2.1%
672 - 2.2%
804 - 2.6%
869 - 2.8%
876 - 2.9%
897 - 2.9%
956 - 3.1%
984 - 3.2%
1181 - 3.8%
1198 - 3.9%
1226 - 4.0%
1306 - 4.2%
1351 - 4.3%
1423 - 4.6%
1503 - 4.8%
1507 - 4.8%
1531 - 4.9%
1543 - 4.9%
1548 - 4.9%
1760 - 5.6%
1788 - 5.7%
1853 - 5.9%
1941 - 6.1 %
1985 - 6.3%
2002 - 6.4%
2030 - 6.4%
2141 - 6.7%
2307 - 7.2%
2335 - 7.3%
2503 - 7.8%
2549 - 7.9%
2577 - 8.0%
2937 - 9.0%
3101 - 9.4%
3137 - 9.5%
3499 - 10.5%
3535 - 10.6%
3897 - 11.6%
4097 - 12.1%
4495 - 13.1%
4531 - 13.2%
4893 - 14.1%
5093 - 14.6%
5491 - 15.6%

Another way to figure it is that 4 pieces of the lvl 75 minstrel armor have +996 finesse. Three do not. There is a cloak and ring with finesse. So if you are rank 9, with the proper preexisting gear, and level 75 you will start with at least 4000 finesse.

On the flip side, the raid set of minstrel gear has NO finesse by design. According to Orion, we dont need it. Its going to be a tough raid if you are required to have finesse and no minstrels showed up.

Teldra

Finesse has a cap according to the dev diary so you wont need every bit of armour or jewellery with it

The hope is that a player will be about at their maximum finesse efficiency by wearing roughly 3 pieces on-level with the space.

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...ry-itemization

Also the reason there is none on the minstrel raid set is that the set has stats that relate to healing and since finesse reduces the resistances and B/P/E of mobs it is not needed for healing

Originally Posted by Teldra

On the flip side, the raid set of minstrel gear has NO finesse by design. According to Orion, we dont need it. Its going to be a tough raid if you are required to have finesse and no minstrels showed up.

Teldra

I'm guessing the Minstrel Raid set doesn't have finesse because the set is healing focused, right? If you're healing you're not very bothered with the B/P/E of the mobs you're fighting...

Originally Posted by LetsDance

Within a relatively short amount of time raid leaders will insist that each raider has a minimum amount of finesse, particularly classes such as tanks. Any items containing finesse that can be crafted will be gated, for example you'll need to be master of the crafting guild plus kindred with the new tribes. Without that you cant buy and craft the new recipes.

Besides, the items with the most finesse, the ones that will really make your raid leader happy will be a grind to acquire.

How is this any different to the current situation? Will a tank perform optimally in Ost Dunhoth with 6k morale? No. The raid leader will want someone with more. How do you get more morale? By getting better gear.

Soft gating is mostly a player-side thing and it already exists. Not just for morale. Offences, defences, outgoing and incoming healing. Having more will make you perform better. Finesse is no different.

I can't say I understand these fears. Did everyone also react this way when they were going to introduce critical defences to the game?

Originally Posted by ThePhobos

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

First of all, how will finesse affect the b/p/e % of the mob. I read somewhere that X finesse will not directly subtract X b/p/e but will just reduce b/p/e by a percentage (Well i don't know about this, if someone can clarify this). Anyway what will u do as a DPS (since you are talking about killing quick and having a hard time HITTING THINGS):

1 Hit the mobs head on like a man or
2 play smart and hit from behind (That will be me) while letting the tank be a man.
3 Rage and stop attacking since your attacks are missing 4/10 times. (Saying to yourself " no point in attacking since i am not dealing much damage")

Originally Posted by ThePhobos

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

If someone has never played another MMO such as Rift that has a mechanic like this already let me tell you, it is a gating system and might as well be radiance 2.0 dumbed down. I played Rift and if you didn't have enough points into the equivalent "finesse" stats over there you wouldn't be taken on instances or raids. So what did you have to do? You had to go grinding out t1 instances so you could move on when you finally got the better gear.

This can be said of any stat. Without Agility you're not hitting much either, so you're not doing a lot of damage. Without Might you can hit as often as you like, but you still won't be doing much damage. Without Vitality you won't have enough morale to survive the AoEs in a given fight, so you'll die and, again, your dps will be limited by your mortality. No Will means no power means no damage. No Fate means no icpr means no damage.

Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.

And who's going to say how much finesse you'll need? It's not like you'll be able to see how much p/b/e the mob has... With radiance you needed at least so much radiance to counteract a known amount of dread/gloom. In the middle of a raid, how often are you looking at the yellow numbers over your screen-filling target? With ten out of twelve people hitting the boss, who's gonna be able to call anyone out? "Bob! You're not getting enough hits! Go get more Finesse before you come back here!" *boot*

I think Finesse will be no more of a gating mechanic than stats like in-coming healing or agility. Minstrels and healing RKs, for example, won't need any Finesse for a raid 'cause they won't be hitting the mobs unless things have already gone very, very wrong.

For one, finesse differs from radiance in that it finesse gear is all over the place. You can easily get 4k+ finesse without even trying.

Originally Posted by cossieuk

Finesse has a cap according to the dev diary so you wont need every bit of armour or jewellery with it

I'm not sure that's what was meant by that. "Maximum finesse efficiency" is different from "maximum finesse".

For instance, 5491 is the rating I got with three PvMP pieces, two PvMP rings, the crafted cloak, plus the store-bought finesse scroll at the level cap. That brought me to an approximated 15.6%. And I can still think of a piece I could swap in to push it a little higher. So unless the cap is 16 or 20% (which you won't hit with three pieces), there's not a cap.

Remember though, finesse reduces mob resistances and B/P/E - that is, you hit more often. It says nothing about piercing their mitigations or damage reduction skills. Remember too that it's been mentioned higher-end mobs (instanced and some landscape bosses) will have access to their own finesse - which means you'll still want some balance.

Originally Posted by Jadzi

I'm not sure that's what was meant by that. "Maximum finesse efficiency" is different from "maximum finesse".

For instance, 5491 is the rating I got with three PvMP pieces, two PvMP rings, the crafted cloak, plus the store-bought finesse scroll at the level cap. That brought me to an approximated 15.6%. And I can still think of a piece I could swap in to push it a little higher. So unless the cap is 16 or 20% (which you won't hit with three pieces), there's not a cap.

Remember though, finesse reduces mob resistances and B/P/E - that is, you hit more often. It says nothing about piercing their mitigations or damage reduction skills. Remember too that it's been mentioned higher-end mobs (instanced and some landscape bosses) will have access to their own finesse - which means you'll still want some balance.

Two thoughts here:

Player B/P/E is getting re-capped up to 25% so if they put Mob B/P/E on the same footing then you could use Finesse up to 25% before it becomes excessive. Moreover since it works exactly the same as crit defense (each point of finesse subtracts an equal number of points from the opponents effective B/P/E rating) each point is essentially as effective as the next. In fact it would actually be rising returns. Since the Mob is calculating B/P/E their ratings are subject to diminishing returns, in turn this means that each point subtracted from the Mob's rating pushes it further down the scale in terms of return on each point thus Finesse has greater returns as it goes higher...unless they made Mob's immune to diminishing returns in which case it still is a stat that doesn't experience diminishing returns but rather flat returns.

Second thought, since Mob Finesse affects PC B/P/E ratings thats more an argument for stacking your own B/P/E even above cap much as it makes sense to overcap on crit right now.

We recently changed the way Finesse is applied to Block/Parry/Evade. Finesse is now converted to a percentage and then the percentage is applied to the target's BPE. It no longer subtracts directly from the rating.

Say you have 2937 finesse. This converts to 9% (using the handy chart posted earlier, no idea if its correct but let's use those numbers for now). Finesse uses the same ratings to percentage conversion as Block/Parry/Evade.

You attack a target with 1226 (4%) Block rating, 1226(4%) Parry rating and 1226(4%) Evade rating.

The target will Block 1% of the time 4-(9/3) = 1%.
The target will Parry 1% of the time.
The target will Evade 1% of the time.