Thread: Rise of Isengard: Lore-master Dev Diary Feedback

First things first. Not only no, but OMG NO to that wisp pet. A healing pet that heals less than any flanking pet (eagle/bog lurker) can right now? And has NO auto attack? I suppose you're helping out those people that can't play LMs at all, and react to flanking maneuvers, but for the rest of us, a level 72?ish pet that does this? Wow. I'd comment further, but I'm not trying to alienate anyone here. I really could see something much nicer than this coming into the game. Wisp itself is a great idea, though. Neat pet.

Then to provide feedback to someone above:

Originally Posted by Sorondur5

To me this would be very nice set of Range items. While some will cry OP, remember power of RK chisels, WRD carvings and CPT banners.

The problem with comparing them to those classes is, they're balanced for using them. We're balanced for NOT using them. While having a ranged item added would be neat, having them mess around with our stats and spell damage so they could balance us for using these items sends shivers down my spine. No thank you.

Originally Posted by Greenasp

First things first. Not only no, but OMG NO to that wisp pet. A healing pet that heals less than any flanking pet (eagle/bog lurker) can right now? And has NO auto attack? I suppose you're helping out those people that can't play LMs at all, and react to flanking maneuvers, but for the rest of us, a level 72?ish pet that does this? Wow. I'd comment further, but I'm not trying to alienate anyone here. I really could see something much nicer than this coming into the game. Wisp itself is a great idea, though. Neat pet.

Then to provide feedback to someone above:


The problem with comparing them to those classes is, they're balanced for using them. We're balanced for NOT using them. While having a ranged item added would be neat, having them mess around with our stats and spell damage so they could balance us for using these items sends shivers down my spine. No thank you.

I have to agree here. A ranged item would neat, buuuut I think we are in a really good place with this update and I don't want to mess with it.

...except for that limrafn. I would really like to hear from the dev team on the official details of this pet. Can I get a second to the motion?

I'm wondering what effect this has on the legendary items. Some of those were for reducing cd's and other things, that may now be useless. Will we get to replace those (with similar strength relics, and get the power level buffs returned to us if used to increase the tier of the buff), or are we limited to a decon? Finally, if I do nothing with my 65 LM but learn the replacement blinding flash skill, is the character going to be as powerful and do everything he could do, or has he been nerfed?

Yes to the limrafn but NO NO NO to the skills and the lack of auto attack.

A pet that cannot attack is not worth haveing.

a pet with such #### skills is not worth haveing.

but the size and look of the pet i can agree and say cool.

a 3 year old could do a better pet than the designer that did it <.<

and whats this all about our bane flare being undead only give it to affect all types please like runekepper and burg...

and healing seariously ? loremaster is dps to u know let us enjoy some flame spitting.

TBH I kind of don't see much of a balance problems. Even +10% fire damage does not OP make. I mean even now that increase would be of no threat to dedicated DPS classes more so after RoI. With the debuff boost, I can't see us stepping on somebody's toes either as we are the main debuffer anyway. I also doubt it would trivialize the content, but if that is the question, the boost could be lowered. The blue items are the same case, Healing output would be nice boost, but Cappy will still do better, not mentioning dedicated healers. As for pet buff, again I can't see who would complain.

If PvP is in your consideration. +10% has maybe more significant effect, but again compared to dedicated DPS classes and even to DPS of tankish classes, it is not such a big difference. And I don't see creepies whining about LMs instead of Burgs anytime soon.

P.S. I actually forgot that there was a dev suggestion of these, that would modify pet skills and I would be in favor of it, but I guess most of the time you wouldn't even notice wearing them.

Please change the limrafn pet to something actually usable!

I don't mind the limrafn model, but I don't see the point of this pet. I can't see me ever using it. It's abilities seem so awful that I think I must have misunderstood. I'd rather use my bog-guardian or eagle depending on how I'm traited. A flank once a minute and heals of 5 and 10% is just...shockingly bad. Instead I could have flanks every few seconds and additional damage, so enemies die faster. In a toss up between 'burn enemies down faster but no tiny heal' and 'burn enemies down slower but get a bit of healing' I'd go with option 1 every time.

I was looking forward to a new pet, but this is disappointing

I like most of the other LM changes, although I'm sad that the signs of battle are being consolidated - I like having the choice of the two different damage types. Can't complain too much though as I like the cooldown removal

Originally Posted by Varonel

Please change the limrafn pet to something actually usable!

I don't mind the limrafn model, but I don't see the point of this pet. I can't see me ever using it. It's abilities seem so awful that I think I must have misunderstood. I'd rather use my bog-guardian or eagle depending on how I'm traited. A flank once a minute and heals of 5 and 10% is just...shockingly bad. Instead I could have flanks every few seconds and additional damage, so enemies die faster. In a toss up between 'burn enemies down faster but no tiny heal' and 'burn enemies down slower but get a bit of healing' I'd go with option 1 every time.

I was looking forward to a new pet, but this is disappointing

I like most of the other LM changes, although I'm sad that the signs of battle are being consolidated - I like having the choice of the two different damage types. Can't complain too much though as I like the cooldown removal

All good stuff here. Except you said you like the limrafn model
I kind of almost sort of agree with you on signs of battle and I was a little upset when I read about it at first, but then I thought on how often I used it vs wizards fire and realized I only used it if wizards fire was on cooldown. Then I decided I liked the change.

Originally Posted by Varonel

Please change the limrafn pet to something actually usable!

I don't mind the limrafn model, but I don't see the point of this pet. I can't see me ever using it. It's abilities seem so awful that I think I must have misunderstood. I'd rather use my bog-guardian or eagle depending on how I'm traited. A flank once a minute and heals of 5 and 10% is just...shockingly bad. Instead I could have flanks every few seconds and additional damage, so enemies die faster. In a toss up between 'burn enemies down faster but no tiny heal' and 'burn enemies down slower but get a bit of healing' I'd go with option 1 every time.

I was looking forward to a new pet, but this is disappointing

I like most of the other LM changes, although I'm sad that the signs of battle are being consolidated - I like having the choice of the two different damage types. Can't complain too much though as I like the cooldown removal

I agree with the above post, im a casual LM but even I can cope with healing using flanks. I don't see much of a use for this pet and don't think it is very lore appropriate. Even if it was it seems a pet more suited to a lower level rather than being the only pet we get between 65 and 75. I was looking forward to the Auroch and don't understand the reasoning for changing it to this insubstantial pet in all senses of the word.

Originally Posted by Herellomar

The problem with the hound suggestion, I would guess, is that they don't already have a model of a hound existing in the game that has combat animations. In fact, I'm not sure there is even a hound in game at all....

Bamfurlong farm in Shire, quest in Brockenborings, Dark Rider if I remember well, where you going with hound as your tracking pet, and dont forget Angmarim Houndmasters within Barad Dúrgul. They usually has combat hounds accompanying them.

I can see this new pet being a choice for fellowships and raids, not really intended for solo use, i noticed alot of people saying about the greater flank rate of the eagle and bog lurker doing more healing, but unless you are wearing the OD set this will be on yourself surely (unless i missed a update where our flanked healing is affecting whole grp and not just the target of our air lore). This pet will return 5% of damage done back as morale to anyone that hits the target. I assume this is raid wide like a captains telling mark, and as everyone can tell you a captains telling mark is a vital raid tool so combined that with this new wisp we are getting, and a raid will be returning 20% of damage done as morale.

The only thing is i say 5% is too low i would prefer to see 10%, but then again i would need to see this pet in action to see how usefull it will be to my raid group.

All very good points so far. Tho I really want to get some official details on this pet sometime soon because all we can fairly do at the moment is speculate, which I have never been a supported of and have tried to keep my complaints and criticisms geared towards the information that has been released by players post-NDA. So again, I would really like to hear from some one at Turbine about the new pet and its abilities.
I don't recall what the protocol was for other LM updates that included pets (mostly because I didn't play my LM very much until SoM). Were they usually given more detail on what the pets could do? iirc, the only two pets that were added post launch were the Sabretooth and the Bog Lurker.

Originally Posted by Inkfinger

...Except you said you like the limrafn model...

I didn't say I *liked* it . I said I don't mind it, because it's ok I guess. It's what my teenage daugher would call 'meh'. I'd love to have something different though.

I don't want another flying pet. I like my eagle and use it a lot, and I tab-target instead of clicking, but even so - it manages to get right in my face at the most annoying moments.

Love the salamander idea, and a stag would also be nice.

Originally Posted by Varonel

I didn't say I *liked* it . I said I don't mind it, because it's ok I guess. It's what my teenage daugher would call 'meh'. I'd love to have something different though.

I don't want another flying pet. I like my eagle and use it a lot, and I tab-target instead of clicking, but even so - it manages to get right in my face at the most annoying moments.

Love the salamander idea, and a stag would also be nice.

I only make friendly jabs in jest ^^
I agree whole-heartedly about the salamander. I've never even considered it for a pet before, but what a great idea! A fire based DoT pet would really compliment MoNF as I've said before but right now I stand with the Devs in the decision that we have more need of a healing support pet, which we've never really had before and would balance out our assortment of pets. But I would LOVE to see the salamander in a future update/xpac!
Also, I've uploaded some play testing results of the new pet in the Lore-Master Forums :3

Enjoy,
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...68#post5641168

Originally Posted by Cerridwen;5632881[I

]“Sign of Battle: Wizardry” and “Sign of Battle: Wizard’s Fire” have been consolidated."[/I]

I'm still not happy about this.

Me either. I just keep thinking about the first boss in SG that is immune to fire damage.

Sad panda.

Other than that though, it looks pretty sweet.

Originally Posted by opurt

Me either. I just keep thinking about the first boss in SG that is immune to fire damage.

Sad panda.

Other than that though, it looks pretty sweet.

SoB:Wizardry doesn't do that much damage. You're not going to dot that sucker to death.

A better possible solution might be to have a ranged slot item that turns our fire damage to frost. Fire legacies could become elemental legacies and work for both frost and fire. I realize that doesn't help in the short term.

Originally Posted by Inkfinger

I don't recall what the protocol was for other LM updates that included pets (mostly because I didn't play my LM very much until SoM). Were they usually given more detail on what the pets could do?

There is no protocol. This is a video game, not a court of law. Precedents hold no zero weight here.

More info would be great, but I don't expect anything from Turbine based on past experience. I'd rather they waited until they were sure what was going on. Remember, half the time when they offer us information it turns out to be wrong. (Recent examples: A new PvP zone that was nerfed, and the "free" 24 man raid that was due months ago and is now being "sold" as part of the expansion.)

Originally Posted by FyreBrand

SoB:Wizardry doesn't do that much damage. You're not going to dot that sucker to death.

No, but it all helps, and now it's one less thing we can do in this particular fight. The same basic logic holds true for grinding a new piece of jewellery that gives one more Will than the one you have. By iteslf it means nothing, but as a group (jewellery, gear, weapons, traits, etc) those "extra one stat" adds up to something meaningful.

I would much rather the new pet be a White Stag from Enedwaith, or even a Boar.

"Ok you Orcs behave, or ill set my little glowy ball of light on you!"

Originally Posted by opurt

No, but it all helps, and now it's one less thing we can do in this particular fight. The same basic logic holds true for grinding a new piece of jewellery that gives one more Will than the one you have. By iteslf it means nothing, but as a group (jewellery, gear, weapons, traits, etc) those "extra one stat" adds up to something meaningful.

That's true. I do stack dots no matter how small.

I'm pretty happy about update with following exceptions:

- I feel that new "healing" pet is very underpowered for the level we are getting it on and in comparison to other pets. And before developers will decide to "fix" it by ruining our current pets, I'd like to ask them to read current topic for some very good suggestions how to make that firefly thing better.

I don't like consolidation of two Wizard Fire signs precisely because there are a lot of mobs who are more vulnerable to either fire or light. Unless new sign deals fire and light damage at the same time, it is better to leave them like they are now - LM is all about good fight strategy and even small thing as Wizard Fire sign can help.

Bane Flare being non restricted by type of creature is an awesome idea. LMs are CC class, so give them more crowd control.

Fellow Lore masters and fellow developers.

Im standing here in a cross road dabbling the thought of how and why.
Im speaking of no other than the Good idea of Limrafn as a pet but the poorly executed planning and developement of the pet in itself as a core addition to the Lore master class.

Now who and why did a developer of Lotro think that a pet wich has no attack at all would be a good addition to our class ? BEFORE u answer or before u think about it lets take a look here.

we got plenty of pets and all of them has auto attack some ranged some melee.
all of them has auto flanking chances on their attack.
So i ask you this mr developer and programmer why did it slip ur mind that the Limrafn would not get an auto attack of some sort ?

now lets get to the side points.
The Limrafn can self sacrifyce itself to save our fellow ship with a whooping 10% moral heal but we lose the pet.
now HOW on earth and land and sea and air did you as a developer / programmer think we should get our pet back after such a waste of death ? BEFORE you attempt to answer let me remind you incase u forgotten that the combat summon skill is tied to the BOG LURKER LEGENDARY trait.
so i ask again why and how did u think we where suppose to get the pet back once it killed itself to heal uss for a mind blowing super ultra mega low and proboly signifcant heal of 10% ?
if we had traited bog lurker legendary would you not think we would use it over the Limrafn due to its 99% flank rate and range dps and Cj starter abilities ?
the Limrafn skills is so poorly developed and thought out that it shows you where desperate to think of something but you did not know what.
the Limrafn in itself was a beauty to see i admit glowing willo wisp and i think i could love the little ball of glowing something.
but the Limrafn skills to give us 1 flank every 1 min and then 1 low heal of 10% and another heal for 5% per dmg done is just mocking and belittleing our ENTIRE LOREMASTER people.

I demand a total revised edition of the Limrafn BRING FOURTH BETTER SKILLS and a ranged attack.

by heaven and earth and air and the sea this pet is as it is now a mocking blow to the entire Loremaster class.
WE AND I demand that this pet is revised and given its TRUE power and glory as any other respected member of the lore master pet addition.

and if ur only excuse was we had no idea what we where doing. you should not be working on the lore master class.
let it be to the people with right mind set on what we need and what we do not need.

further more BANE FLARE should not be restricted to undead. think about it for a minute if we throw a big fat flash grenade in ur face would you not be stunned as well as any "undead" u might find ?

now i urge you to think about this before the community will cave in on itself.

thank you and hope i did not offend anyone but this Limrafn pet skills and lack of auto attack made me as dissapointed as when i heard santa clause was not real!

The auto attack thing might be a bug. Everything in the beta is subject to change. Heck, we had an auroch pet at one point in the beta and then bam, the wisp.

Please wait for the devs to clarify or live RoI before getting too upset. And santa isn't real? /cries

Originally Posted by Cherrio

the Limrafn in itself was a beauty to see i admit glowing willo wisp and i think i could love the little ball of glowing something.

Yep, something. Then I guess wee need new trait line also - Keeper of the Something. Next pet is what? Flying saucer?

Originally Posted by Fellagund_The_One

Yep, something. Then I guess wee need new trait line also - Keeper of the Something. Next pet is what? Flying saucer?

I agree. What a misguided excuse for a pet! A wisp? A spirit? A hovering ball of lighted swamp flatus? Truly? This? This was your best, was it? And what was so wrong with the aurochs that having it shrunk shouldn't have served well enough? What was so wrong with the wolf, the stag, the salamander, or any other sorts of living creatures?

I'll not pretend to say for others, but for myself. When playing the lore-master I wish to feel engaged when I play. That holds for the pet I've summoned, just so. Do you know what I'm saying? What I don't wish to have is a lump. And whether it's glowing or flying I couldn't give a toss. If all it's there for is keeping itself to a corner save for the odd time I've clicked an icon, then it's naught but a waste of space to my quick bar and beside me.

Spirits of nature... Right. Spirits is it? Then let me summon Tom Bombadil? I'd rather have some bumbling, yodelling, alcoholic, pipeweed and mushroom addicted, senile old git beside me than some glowy, floaty, lump of stuff.

Oh... Apologies, I've not quit ranting yet. Soon, but not quite yet. How? Just why? That one of you decided that wasting your time, what more our moneys, to have this coded was so grand, escapes me. Why, when you've presently got a class for just this sort of rubbish; the Rune-keeper? Give _them_ the flying lump for their new pet, won't you? Sell it to them. You're grand for selling things we don't want or need. Say anything... Say it's the first of many floaty, stony, spirity pets they'll gain from Isengard and beyond. I know. Let it follow them! Let that come it's 'special feature.' Whatever, I don't care, so long as it never finds its way to my skills page.

But for all love -for the love of my lore-master- keep him consistent, and keep his pets as living, breathing, beasts. Save whatever further 'novel,' 'special,' and 'unique' notions such as these for whatever money-grabby future expansion classes you've got planned.

Please?

So, now do we not only control animals, but spirits of the dead too? Sound like captaining to me.

IMPROVED STAFF SWEEP.

I really don't see a reason why it shouldn't make ANY/ALL of our skills have the +33-99% crit chance.

What on earth reason is there that Gust of Wind/LotRD/SStrike/ToW can't benefit from this (limited to every 15s) buff, when our clearly MOST OVERPOWERED, SHORT CD AOE (DoT!) skill (ISG) can potentially (easily) benefit from the +33-99% crit chance EVERY TIME we use it?

....Why just fire skills?

Why not at least allow it to work for Beacon of Hope (since LM healing ya know, is supposed to be getting buffed*)?

...Seriously?

Pointless/lame, this "improved" skill just pushes more LMs to become MoNF-only and not be good "supporters" as our class is/was intended to be.

Overall, I am dissatisfied with the updates to the class.

One new debuff is appreciated. Easy-mode SoP:C is alright. One decent new heal - Improved Inner Flame - is nice. *Improved Flanking is complete garbage compared to 5/6 OD AOE-flanks, and we don't get an HoT on BoH as a blue-line bonus at all...?

A nerf to one of our most often-used "support" skills via the CD on wound/disease removals, NO new support skills, NO new CC... and basically dragging all LMs toward MoNF via ImprovedSSweep only giving their new "free crits" to fire skills - these are all large fails.

Cute.

(Bane Flare had better work on all mob types, and the +Bane Flare Targets legacy better not be going anywhere. That would be an ACTUAL CC update to our CC class! <--- Since your diaries have neglected to even mention that skill or legacy.)

(No comment on the "healing" [riiiiiiight] pet.)

Originally Posted by Iozeph

Spirits of nature...
But for all love -for the love of my lore-master- keep him consistent, and keep his pets as living, breathing, beasts. Save whatever further 'novel,' 'special,' and 'unique' notions such as these for whatever money-grabby future expansion classes you've got planned.

Please?

This glowy thing seems to be more appropriate for a Rune Keeper... just sayin.

So, ya.. NAY on the glowy !

I'm just not happy with the choice of a limrafn for a pet. As others have pointed out, Lore-masters are keepers of animals, not the Dead. If there is a class more likely to be able to command the Dead, it is a Captain. If there is some reasonable lore justification for it, then fine, but I can't think of anything. I would much rather see a hound (my first choice) or a stag. Even the originally proposed aurochs (or aurochs calf) would be better. Furthermore, if the new pet is supposed to aid in healing, I would recommend that the pet provide passive benefits to healing (increased outgoing healing, critical chance, etc.)

First thing I realise is that the devs are really tossing improved versions to skills so as not to use their time thinking of interesting additions to our class.

Can hardly see an interesting change for LMs, maybe only in the traits.

I don't care for the glowy much either; it will probably be one of those pets thats only use will be to show off - like the sabertooth. What I'd like is a new high-dps pet, like the lynx; I've been using the lynx for 4 years now and I'd like something different...a salamander would be awesome

So no new skills except a pet... and what happened to lore-master actually being a complex/advanced difficulty class. Now we're gunna have even more cruddy lm's running around dwarrowdelf server. I really dislike making this knowledge of cures skill. 10s cooldown may not sound like a lot, but it is when all of a sudden you get another wound on you after you just used the skill and at the same time your healer needs power. This will especially suck in instances like Barad Gularan where removing wounds is vital and they can pop up at literally any time and its remove withing 5s or instakill. I don't mind whatever the pet is as long as the animation is alright and doesn't break lore. As for the trait lines KOA just got nerfed. And finally why remove the debuff and item requirements for the res? Lore-master's aren't primary healers and technically use nature instead of magic, so using herbs to revive a fallen person makes sense. I loved the class the way it was and don't see too much if any improvement to this.

The new changes to the LM basically fix all the reasons I stopped playing mine at level 40. I'm going to start on him again when Isengard releases. (after I finish bringing my RK and Warden through the new content, that is!)

1- I want the aurochs (the stun skill in the moors, sigh, would have been epic).
2- I want my loremaster tobacco back. Rez is not justified without that for a loremaster, imho.
3- +1 to a new and improved crafting herb to rez in combat (1 time per hour?).
4- +1 to the limfrafn for captains (in lore, as stated, they have a more justified managing of the dead).

Originally Posted by Sorondur5

Since we still don't seem to be getting our promised ranged slot item, I'd like to offer few suggestions.

(...) remember power of RK chisels, WRD carvings and CPT banners. Compared to those, items i propose are still weaker. Two for each trait-line. One for each function. I realize 6 items might be too many and don't mind if those that belong to single trait line would be consolidated, but I wanted to avoid proposing something outbalancing.

Rask please consider this, as we are waiting for ranged slot items a long time (even though most of us ceased talking about them) and they were promised as being worked on. I honestly don't believe it would be so hard to implement.

Totally agree. Our "class consummables" are supposed to be pet food. What is the benefit of the loremaster if he or she is not soloing or in full blueish traitline?

Real class consummables are just more than a good idea

I was directed to this thread through the Lore Master forum, specifically this thread. I have already posted my thoughts on that thread, but I wanted to post them here as well.

In brief (as I ranted somewhat, see above)
Limarfn are malicious spirits of the dead, and are not a Lore Appropriate pet for Lore Masters.
The skills proposed for the pet are really not good. They are lackluster, and no LM is interested in using this pet.


Please get back to the drawing-board, Turbine... you have a lot of work to do on a new LM pet, and only 2 weeks to do it. The idea I had (and many others have posted ideas as well) is a Fox; a stealthy pet, like the Lynx, but with more burglar-like functionality. A pet that had an Interrupt and that could instigate an FM would be quite interesting to use.

I posted on another thread but was just directed here as official. I know I'm too late to make any difference, but here's my 2 sense. Healing pets symbolic could be a white stag. http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/White_Stag_Bull I would be all for a pet that looked like that, maybe glowing indigo eyes A fun pet to have, whether functional or just cosmetic doesn't matter to me, but I have fallen in love with the Holly-lizards (geckos?) in eregion, and the grodbog spitters in moria... something about them I just like a whole lot and would love to have one following me around lol. That being said, I think the idea of a healing pet, is worthless. If i want a healer with me, I bring a ministrel along! Or maybe an rk. not a LM or their pet. I use the healing skills on my LM rarely, only when someone needs a one time boost, and I find the idea of a healing pet kind of not worth equipping. I have potions, food, fellowships and lots of other things to provide healing. I need a pet for other things. I am hoping for something more creative in this department honestly. But for new pet looks, white stag, holly-lizard (gecko), or grodbog spitter for the win! Even if just cosmetic, please let us have them and the glowy orb thing... not a cool pet for a LM. please don't do that one, or a clunky auroch's.... something more majestic please (((stag stag stag!)))

Stag .. Holly Lizard .. Limrafn .. Grodbog ..
Meh, Turbine:

Otters! Add Otters to the game!
Otters are the pinacle of awesomeness!

Originally Posted by Aisolon

Stag .. Holly Lizard .. Limrafn .. Grodbog ..
Meh, Turbine:

Otters! Add Otters to the game!
Otters are the pinacle of awesomeness!

What about Angry Beavers?

Originally Posted by FyreBrand

What about Angry Beavers?

Meh, only awsome porcupine or raging platypus.

I'll give this a thumbs up.