Thread: Rise of Isengard: Champion Dev Diary Feedback

Hi, I am playing my champ for about two years now and most of the time I have fullfilled the tanking role.
Unlike most of the champions, who like damage over all, I cared for my buddy (a minstrel) - if he survives, I will survive, too. This way we have mastered most difficult situations (which were more difficult in former times).

Of course I am deep in the blue line, prefer defensive skills and a heavy shield. A heavy shield is up to now my most useful part of defensive gear because it provides morale, critical defense, armor, extra blocking and so on. This way it was possible for me to master all but the most heavy bosses as main tank.

I am very disappointed that heavy shields are now no longer available for champions.
Yes, armor is compensated and we have these bubbles now. And it is possible to use small shields to get the block ability which is VERY useful while standing in the middle of mobs. But all shield boni are very small now and most small shields aren´t designed for fighters anyway. I doubt if the new champion could tank and survive like the old one with lesser critical defense (which was already too low at the old champ), lesser blocking and lesser melee defense.

Could one of the designers please explain WHY the heavy shield was banned for champions? Unlike mentioned in the dev diary it is very useful for tanking champions. And in my opinion every player should be allowed to trade damage for defense (or vice versa) by his own.

Actually Ventro I noticed something similar far as the power burn, that's something I had some issues with a while off an on though even though I know shouldn't be as much problem for champions I think. The rest you mentioned I don't think I took note of or least noticed enough to take note of.

I know if I hit other skills to soon after one it always caused some power burn and sometimes when get in really tough opponent(s) and don;t have enough time for it to regen before burning it again. Even if you can;t play more than one skill at a time I noticed if hit them to soon together you can end up interrupting one your own skills as well causing power burn out. So maybe this also from the longer induction I didn't really notice. I've had times before I had to remember and get into a kinda of calmer manner and sorta find rhythm with the skill times/inductions. But yeh I did notice I was burning the power more since the change and still sometimes it kinda startles me but I don;t have it as sever as healers an have noticed with hunters of course.

Wouldn't mind some tips if any has though to handle power though lol

And from my understanding far the heavy shield. I didn;t think to many champions bothered with heavy shield. Old set up you not only lost -15% damage in that stance but wearing a heavy shield you lost your offhand weapon damage ability as well. And far as I know we can;t do even small damage with our shields like a guard can. We've been given better defenses in glory now without needing wear a shield and now can do our double handed damage (or big two-handed weapon damage). Although I am not actually sure yet how better them defenses are seems like we lost some part the defenses used have with glory stance to. I may be wrong on accounts sinc I really only know my own set up.

I've always been in sorta medium, I like doing damage with my two axes, but I also like living longer, and before the change I used ardour stance a lot because I was willing sacrifice that +15% get in fervor stance just to get a little extra survivability even if small. But I didn't want the -15% and agro pull with it, my use of shield one point was disastrous, with the changes I get even better survivability in that stance with my current trait line so guess for me that improved. But yeh can't speak for others, just express what my understanding is even if may be wrong. I also have no idea what it will be for champions in lower levels I know the 20's and early 30's were very difficult for me and had some rough spots later not as bad. And the info on sites would find was generally not very useful for lower levels. Often suggesting things I didn't even get till my 40's and 50's now or using terms not so understandable for someone new lol

I have played the champion since beta and I always enjoyed his ability to solo almost any mob in the game. Now I cannot and I die a lot. Even after I maxed out everything I still die even when the mob is my level. I thought I might get a shield to stay alive but found out I could not ,so I tried a 2 handed higher level sword but I cannot solo Isengard. If they don't upgrade this charecter I will have to go to play my other charecters. Hopefully you have not ruined them also

While you may have updated a few things here and there and sure a few things are great, it doesnt exactly fit the bill of a Martial Champion in my mind. pretty much all thats been done is you've just glorified Ardour stance because if I think about a Martial Champion I go back to a hero like Achilles: wading into battle, blocking arrows, parryng an evading swords and spears,and responding in kind with quick, efficient, and near artful bladework. And when you took away heavy shields, you just robbed a man like that of his most useful asset besides himself. Not only that, Guardians and Wardens are going to be much harder pressed to keep up because you hae eliminated the champion go-betweens to where they become more of a liability to the main tank than a fallback if he goes down. I play both tank styles and I saved many an instance whn th main tank fell and I had to step up and take his place. This upgrade made me less of an asset as a champion now. (P.S. I'm in accord with the guy who originally strted this. This to me and many other champs is considered a downgrade)

I traited 5b/2y when the expansion went live and haven't retraited since. I maxed the correct legacies plus balanced vit/might gear, and knew the skill rotation I was going to use. I haven't died once either while landscape questing and getting pounded on by 6 signatures simultaneously, or when tanking lv75 fellowship content, or when soloing Stoneheight for IXP pills and relic boxes.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to be defeated. I'm saying that the survivability of a deep blue Glory champ can be tricky to learn and takes time to gear up for, but is extremely rewarding and enjoyable once you master it. You can no longer rely on the passive armour/crit defense bonuses of a heavy shield; you have to be carefully staggering and cycling your defensive skill use to keep up. While guard skills/survivability are gated behind block/parry responses, our survivability is based on short-cooldown Sudden Defence and constantly striking with Hedge and Bracing Attack. If you aren't constantly using Second Wind as well every time it's off cooldown, you'll quickly run out of power.

I had no trouble with all the issues people keep complaining about - the stuns, the disarms, the brutal signature-slaying quests, as I was effectively disarm/stun immune with Blood Rage/Improved Hedge. Did it take me slightly longer to kill things? Of course, that's the tradeoff you make for never dying while engaging as many foes at once as you please. I haven't lost my other utility either - Clobber interrupts, AoE skills, AoE stun. There's never a dull moment, as there's always an attack skill or defensive skill available to use.

The stance changes have been acceptable overall so far, despite the loss of shield benefits, still being stuck at 3 morale/1 vit, and Battle Acuity consuming fervour pips rather than building them. Time will tell whether we need more morale/crit defense/armour rating from our trait line bonuses and active skills to be on par with the other tank classes.

Concering the lack of on-defeat skills:

what are the plans concerning the legacy?
so far its totally useless, with flurry and second wind permanent active or a regular in-combat skill.

oh, concerning second wind: i really would appreciate it if it also would be triggerable on 'on defeat' too, allowing for regaining some morale after combat too.

HEY YA TOOK AWAY MY HEAVY SHIELD USE. the rest looks cool and all. but no heavy shield use..... what the?

Another thanks to Orion. I have been playing a champ as my main since 2008 (In fact I have 2 Champs), and was lucky enough to test the new Champ out in the ROI Beta, and this update is the best yet. Fervour is still superb for out and out dps, ardour I have actually used now, and Glory is my new favourite stance, I always found a heavy shield to be largely unnessecary with the exception of perhaps something like tanking Big dudes in the BG Gauntlet. Glory now give me all the benefits, whilst maintain the Champ ethos. I now feel like I have valid stances and traits appropriate content or play style I wish to persue.

Sincere thanks!

Originally Posted by Elgalandir

...I always found a heavy shield to be largely unnessecary with the exception of perhaps something like tanking Big dudes in the BG Gauntlet....

I would like to point out that these BIG Boss situations (Moria, in and around BG) are exactly the ones which are difficult to tank. You have to take a lot of damage over a long period of time and sometimes large additional damage peaks. Of cource while holding the aggro.
In these situations it was impossible for me to be main tank without heavy shield. And I really really doubt that the defensive abilities of champions to tank and survive a LONG heavy fight against a big boss have been increased.
Long-time boss fights need continous damage reduction like blocking, armor, crit. defense. Heavy shields provide this, bubbles not.

Originally Posted by Kirloin

I would like to point out that these BIG Boss situations (Moria, in and around BG) are exactly the ones which are difficult to tank. You have to take a lot of damage over a long period of time and sometimes large additional damage peaks. Of cource while holding the aggro.
In these situations it was impossible for me to be main tank without heavy shield. And I really really doubt that the defensive abilities of champions to tank and survive a LONG heavy fight against a big boss have been increased.
Long-time boss fights need continous damage reduction like blocking, armor, crit. defense. Heavy shields provide this, bubbles not.

I was back tank in (on level not since ROI) BG gauntlet, and main tanked most of the moria instances (at 60 and 65), (never main tanked watcher) and always without shield, and did HoC with, and without, Shield, in additon I did tank Durchest for the last few minuites of a fight dual wield when the Guard dropped. So it was never nessecary to use a shield for these, O.K Durchest was not sensible, or probably sustainable sure, we were lukcy we had not long to go, but then again, he is up there as one of the hardest hitters and we are not primary tanking class. Indeed, with regard to agro, I always found it harder to sustain agro with a shield personally.

Actually, though the bubbles are superb, you DO have +armour, and +crit defense, via the new iteration of the hedge skill and set bonuses for traiting for the martial champion, so you still have all the damage reduction you did before? Sticking hedge in your rotation basically gives you a permanent heavy shield effect, minus only the ability to block, which whilst not inconsiderable, the bubbles from SD and Heroics, and the invincible skill are a supplement which makes up for the lack of block IMO. Is it on a par with a warden/guardian... probably not, no, but nor should it be, though they are a damn close second and completely viable.

Originally Posted by Elgalandir

Actually, though the bubbles are superb, you DO have +armour, and +crit defense, via the new iteration of the hedge skill and set bonuses for traiting for the martial champion, so you still have all the damage reduction you did before? Sticking hedge in your rotation basically gives you a permanent heavy shield effect, minus only the ability to block, which whilst not inconsiderable, the bubbles from SD and Heroics, and the invincible skill are a supplement which makes up for the lack of block IMO. Is it on a par with a warden/guardian... probably not, no, but nor should it be, though they are a damn close second and completely viable.

I have also main tanked most moria bosses, but most of them required using a shield for me. Maybe it is because my equipment is not maxed out due to time reasons. I have main tanked Durchest for a good period but it was not sustainable for me, even with heavy shield.

You are right, we have now +armor from hedge which is more than a heavy shield provide. And we got some nice options.

But after all, blocking was traded against bubbles. And according to my feeling, blocking is a continous effect which compensates up to 20% of damage while bubbles are short time effects which are compensating more damage.

Therefore, I personally favor blocking.
Summing up, I don´t want to be a weaker tank after RoI. Of course Wardens and Guardians should be better tanks - it was always my goal to get 90% of the defensive abilities of our turbo guardian (unfortunately I never reached this goal). I like this old practice.

The new Champ is the best change to this class this class has ever received!!

The only annoying thing about this change is; make Second Wind a passive in all stances PLEASE!!!

DEVS if you insist on making us continue to click on it at least make it's over time duration last longer then 10 seconds,
try something like 20s PLEASE!!!

Nice change. ( Now go fix hunters )

Originally Posted by Kirloin

But after all, blocking was traded against bubbles. And according to my feeling, blocking is a continous effect which compensates up to 20% of damage while bubbles are short time effects which are compensating more damage.

Therefore, I personally favor blocking.

I understand your pain, I am similarly afflicted time wise, thanks to a certain little blighter, so have never been in the best gear, though didn't do too bad! I'd be keen to hear your thought after you have given it a little more time. I'll concede it is a very different mindset, but I think generally better, certainly personally I think tanking is better now, than before ROI.

There are sure huge differences between a notional 20% reduction in damage, and a fixed value (like bubbles), dependant on the level and nature of the damage being inflicted. But don't forget, with correct traits and a legacy sudden defence has a CD of 1 minuite which can be reduced by 5 seconds every time you hit wild attack, so this can be popped a lot, and at need back to backed with invincible and heroics.

I fully admit to having no facts and figures about actual damage reduction level via block, and the bubbles and if, or at what point, one is better than another, but at worst Sudden Defence alone prevents 3K+ damage at least every minuite, without using wild atack or any other buttons. So in general I'd say If I could survive glory tanking dual wield/2-hander with no shield, then this seems to be at least taking it forward from the situation I was used to!

It would be interesting to know how much you'd need to block, or how hard the damage would need to be, to compensate for -3K damage every 40 seconds say. Beyond my maths and ability I'm afraid, to work out how you would calculate that, and indeed present it! I do, btw, love shields and blocking, I have a Guardian which I love to play S+Bin true old school style, even levelling up, so In a way I also like that this provides a contrast to that, I still after all have the option of shield tanking open to me!

Nice discussing it with you,
good luck in your travels!

I am sure the Champion changes were designed with the end product at level 75 in mind and I am sure the picture is pretty rosey at that stage with all abilities, traits, legacies, etc all maxed out like every other class.

However, the journey to me is as important as the destination and the ROI champion has been left with some gaping holes defensively prior to reaching the destination. The armour needs to be applied to the Glory stand, for the levelling and not maxed out Champion in Glory stance they get the armour buff for 15 seconds and a window they have no armour buff until they get Tight Grip so that is level 40 + at least ten days to get the trait, I got to level 50 and I was taking my time, crafting, played another character. It is a big part of the journey to be a tank with no tracks.

Second Wind should be renamed second button because it feels like i have to hit it almost every second ability. It needs a re-think, you can run out of juice pretty quickly if you don't use it and it is fairly annoying to have to keep hitting a utility ability so frequently. Perhaps adjust the passive regen and make second wind a triggered ability on a crit or something that can give you a bit of a power boost, i don't think a class should have an ability that is religiously hit on cooldown, it usually reflects to an issue with the design. It sounded okay in concept but over a period of time it gets tedious.

To be honest, I preferred heavy shield use at this point in time. I was asked to tank some instances and until I max the character out I do not feel confident at all, there are some significant holes in the defense, massive holes you don't really have to the same extent as a guardian, I can't say for warden, never got passed the gambit system to tell. I just don't feel the Champion was looked at to be viable at a tanking role until right at the end, I don't really know why Glory was reduced down to level 10 when the champ has next to no real tools to do much in Glory at that level.

It just seems a bit gimmicky atm. I hope it improves between now and the destination. At this point in time i have better survivability in Fervour than I do in Glory, largely because the survivability tools do not exist to make the dps drop off worth losing the dps so shorter fight with good dps tools is far superior to long fight with poor survivability tools. Perhaps that was intended for the lower level Champion, not really sure but I struggle to do encounters i find trivial with a cloth wearing class.

I know it will change as I hit 75 and max out but the journey should also reflect the destination, not be wildly different. You want people to learn how to group and tank at lower levels, not at 75 when they are maxed out and then have to learn coordination with others.

Originally Posted by Kirloin

I would like to point out that these BIG Boss situations (Moria, in and around BG) are exactly the ones which are difficult to tank. You have to take a lot of damage over a long period of time and sometimes large additional damage peaks. Of cource while holding the aggro.
In these situations it was impossible for me to be main tank without heavy shield. And I really really doubt that the defensive abilities of champions to tank and survive a LONG heavy fight against a big boss have been increased.
Long-time boss fights need continous damage reduction like blocking, armor, crit. defense. Heavy shields provide this, bubbles not.

At 75 and traited martial, I have more armour value on my Champion than I do on my Guardian. Over 10k Armour Value by using Hedge, which I can keep up constantly by equipping the Tight Grip trait.

I've tanked a 12 man Skirmish Raid, School, Library, Ettens Raid and OD on my champ with NO problems maintaining aggro and survivability.
I have 9.9k Morale and 56.2% Physical Mitigation, 49.7% Tactical Mitigation and 68.7% Common Mitigation.

Champs CAN main tank, If you know how to set them up properly that is.

I built my champion as a shield fighter over 4 years ago.

I do not want to tank.

I do want my shield back.

I am glad everyone is really happy with tank role in champion and i am sad for all that miss their heavy shield use.

Me on the other hand I am not. I did not roll a guardian.

All this changes simply turned Champion into a Guardian which I could not care less.

So much defense on changes and the DPS factor that always really distinguished us is simply not there.
Almost every other class has nukes with more DPS than champs especially ranged classes may thay be hunters rks or mini's. The only stance so far we make a diference (for now at least) is in AOE. But when we get to a single target boss things do not really look that good.

Power has it has been said it is completely messed up and I find myself unable to fight due to lack of power. I already have to slow me down myself to try hold on the power till combat reaches a critical stand.

I like playing with my kin mates and with other classes, where each one plays its different role and where together we are more than just the sum of the parts.

As a fervour champion I am nerfed or at least slowed down to force my game style and stance into glory stance and martial champion deep traited.

The diference in roles in this game is narrowing quite drastically. Minis have more fun nuking hard the targets and we are only needed now for tanking because we can hold the heat as well as a guardian and still dps a bit more than they do.

My hope and call to the developers is just one:
- PUT THAT NEW GUY IN GUARDIAN'S DEVELOPMENT TEAM AND MAKE US A DPS CLASS FOR REAL.

Cheers to all the fervour champs!

Guardian skills are reactive, champion skills are proactive and aggressive.

I never run out of power now that I have all the proper legacies maxed, a 2.6k power pool, regularly use traited Second Wind, eat food, and know when to use pots and Controlled Burn.

My rotation is such that I always have a skill ready to use for either DPS or survivability, and there's never a dull moment. The main thing that distinguishes well-built, well-equipped Glory champs from other tank classes is not single-target bosses - we excel in engaging and holding those. It's the AoE taunts that are available to other classes, while we mainly have to rely on Enhanced Battle Acuity + Raging Blades/our other AoE attacks, and Glorious Exchange. A fair tradeoff.

On the other hand, if you're running out of power in the stance with the highest ICPR, I'd call that a result of poor skill/pot/food management, gear, and LI legacy selection.

Originally Posted by VentoPT

All this changes simply turned Champion into a Guardian which I could not care less.

Sorry, but removing the heavy shield use made us tank a lot less like a poor guardian. There was no nerf to DPS, only an increase to survivability.

Almost every other class has nukes with more DPS than champs especially ranged classes may thay be hunters rks or mini's.

For single target, maybe. Although the auto-crit on Remorseless definitely ups our single target DPS. But for AoE, no other class is comparable.

Power has it has been said it is completely messed up and I find myself unable to fight due to lack of power. I already have to slow me down myself to try hold on the power till combat reaches a critical stand.

I've noticed some issues in regards to power. Now, I actually have to pay attention and manage my power through pots/Second Wind/food etc, where I just completely ignored it before. But I doubt it's significantly impacted my DPS.

As a fervour champion I am nerfed

Sorry, but there's no way that we got nerfed. Fervour actually got a boost in that Orion removed the healing penalty, something champs had been clamoring for since it was introduced.

Originally Posted by Tainted_Black

At 75 and traited martial, I have more armour value on my Champion than I do on my Guardian. Over 10k Armour Value by using Hedge, which I can keep up constantly by equipping the Tight Grip trait.

I've tanked a 12 man Skirmish Raid, School, Library, Ettens Raid and OD on my champ with NO problems maintaining aggro and survivability.
I have 9.9k Morale and 56.2% Physical Mitigation, 49.7% Tactical Mitigation and 68.7% Common Mitigation.

Champs CAN main tank, If you know how to set them up properly that is.

We know Hedge is a bit ahead of a heavy shield but have you compared the critical defence and factored the entire bonus of using a heavy shield, not to mention you don't have to interrupt whatever you are doing to re-apply your armour bonus.

We know champs can tank, if you can maintain threat and don't have extremely poor mitigation then you can tank, LM bears can tank raid bosses. It comes down to efficiency and how extensive the tools are to stay alive. Guardian has a lot of tools to mitigate damage, far beyond what are their baseline stats. Champion has a very narrow band of tools designed for defensive purposes. They are good tools, but not as broad as what is available to a Guardian.

Guardian has a far larger morale pool and less reliant on activated buffs, when it comes to healing I'd rather heal a guardian than hope the Champ is one of the few that never lets critical buffs drop. Champ has the tools to tank well but I think there is a greater margin for error, a Guardian will have solid mitigation even if he has slipped into a coma. When it comes to a Champ you are relying on the person being a very good button/cd manager.

Originally Posted by Zvim666

We know Hedge is a bit ahead of a heavy shield but have you compared the critical defence and factored the entire bonus of using a heavy shield, not to mention you don't have to interrupt whatever you are doing to re-apply your armour bonus.

We know champs can tank, if you can maintain threat and don't have extremely poor mitigation then you can tank, LM bears can tank raid bosses. It comes down to efficiency and how extensive the tools are to stay alive. Guardian has a lot of tools to mitigate damage, far beyond what are their baseline stats. Champion has a very narrow band of tools designed for defensive purposes. They are good tools, but not as broad as what is available to a Guardian.

Guardian has a far larger morale pool and less reliant on activated buffs, when it comes to healing I'd rather heal a guardian than hope the Champ is one of the few that never lets critical buffs drop. Champ has the tools to tank well but I think there is a greater margin for error, a Guardian will have solid mitigation even if he has slipped into a coma. When it comes to a Champ you are relying on the person being a very good button/cd manager.

This is accurate. There is a larger margin of error for effective Champ tanking, since some of our survival skills are dependent on hitting an enemy regularly - which is not always possible or viable. Kiting Thadur in GB comes to mind.

Champs who do master their power management, staggering their skills for timed cooldown cycles, and building to balance morale/crit defense/might/vit, will be main raid tanks with decent DPS and excellent survivability.

Originally Posted by narsica

Sorry, but removing the heavy shield use made us tank a lot less like a poor guardian. There was no nerf to DPS, only an increase to survivability.

Right now the only things a good guardian has better than a good glory martial deep traited champ is the ability to aggro multiple targets, a better morale pool and obviously blocking. In survivability over all including armour bubles dps and the like tank champions are ahead.

Originally Posted by narsica

I've noticed some issues in regards to power. Now, I actually have to pay attention and manage my power through pots/Second Wind/food etc, where I just completely ignored it before. But I doubt it's significantly impacted my DPS.


Sorry, but there's no way that we got nerfed. Fervour actually got a boost in that Orion removed the healing penalty, something champs had been clamoring for since it was introduced.

DPS per hit skill was not nerfed but your ability to deliver hit skills and DPS has.

A fervour champ has focus on building up fervour points to delver high DPS hit skills.

Managing power on fervour stance te way it is simply means slowing down your hit skills output hence reducing the output DPS and this where the nerfing is.

As a fervour champ I trade off my overall survivabilty, my evade, my parry, my armour buffs for the ability to deliver substancially high DPS. I am ok with that.
But right now after trading off all that and exposed to really damaging hits i find myself restrainned from doing what I am supposed to do: deliverying high DPS.

Some math exercise for champs:

• Pots have a 30sec cooldown regenerates power 1200-1400. Second Wind has a 10sec cooldown and revives you an overhall 240 power.
• Fervour stance generates 1 fervour per 5 secs
• blade wall wild attack and swift blade generate 1 additional fervour each but cost power.
• Under 10 sec you will have at least 4 to hit a remorseless or 5 fervour to hit a raging blade
• add 1 non hit skills;
• My power pool is around 2700 and I dual wield for speed

Considering I am robot and never miss a pot cooldown or second wind how long it takes to drain all my power?
Now add other non hit skills and other hit skills kinda double the ammount of power spending by DPS'ing even more with Battle frenzy...

So yes managing dps means slowing down therefore nerfing dps output.

Removing the healing penalty on Fervour was a good call for us but not sure the trade off with power consumption really paid off especially if you take in consideration this also brings issues on using our second and most important morale regen skill : Dire Need becasue it is directly related to the ammount of power available since it uses 50% of it.

If you are having fun in glory deep traited martially u will probably never understand the fun of playing a fervour champ but then again you should have rolled another class if your goal was to be a main tank in game fight.

I am not a "great player" but i do understand my class and its role on team playing. Saying (not you in particular) I just aint playing my class properly or not traiting/legacying correctly dangerously converges into saying there is only 1 "right" way to play it.

And that is why I say champs are being forced into glory mode deeptrait martial champion.

In pre Isengard Ardour was basically pointless stance, now fervour was a bit handicapped for the tradeoffs done.

I am here to rock'n'roll not dance a waltz.
I am a fervour champ.

Cheers

Originally Posted by VentoPT

Managing power on fervour stance te way it is simply means slowing down your hit skills output hence reducing the output DPS and this where the nerfing is.

Sorry, but I haven't had to slow down my hit skills in Fervour. At all. The only thing that's changed is that I'm hitting Second Wind occasionally instead of Flurry. Sure, if you're spamming Remorseless and Battle Frenzy, you're going to run out of power. But that happened before the update too.

*list

You forgot Controlled Burn, which adds substantially to your ICPR.

If you are having fun in glory deep traited martially u will probably never understand the fun of playing a fervour champ but then again you should have rolled another class if your goal was to be a main tank in game fight.

I'm sorry, but I love playing a Fervour Champ. I also love the challenge of the new Martial line. Saying I can only like one, or only understand one stance is ridiculous.

I am not a "great player" but i do understand my class and its role on team playing. Saying (not you in particular) I just aint playing my class properly or not traiting/legacying correctly dangerously converges into saying there is only 1 "right" way to play it.

There isn't one right way to play a champ. But some ways are better than others.

Originally Posted by VentoPT

Right now the only things a good guardian has better than a good glory martial deep traited champ is the ability to aggro multiple targets, a better morale pool and obviously blocking. In survivability over all including armour bubles dps and the like tank champions are ahead.

After a short discussion with a kin Guardian, the Guardian also has about 2k more crit defense than I would on my Champ if I traited 4-deep in Glory and kept Hedge up the whole time, and I wear crit defense gems. A Champ can probably hit the mitigation caps, but so can a Guardian. Throw in Pledge for the Guardian (and Block, which you mentioned), and I just don't see how a tanking Champ is more survivable than a Guardian.

Don't get me wrong - I think that a Champ can tank just fine, but a Guardian is still the best tank, I think.

Oh - and Champs can grab and hold AoE aggro just fine - the Glorious Exchange blue trait is pretty awesome. Champs just don't have a multi-target easy button (i.e., force taunt).

Originally Posted by VentoPT

[Reasons for the statement below...]
And that is why I say champs are being forced into glory mode deeptrait martial champion.

I'm just not seeing this at all. I'm still running 4r/3y, putting out even better DPS than before (as well I should, given the DPS increase), and not feeling like I have to slow down or gimp my DPS to avoid running out of power. Part of that is due to the fact that I've gone away from straight remorseless spam (but my reason for doing so is due mostly to no longer wearing 3 OD pieces), and part of that is due to finally having a Wild Attack legacy (meaning that I'm using it more than Swift Strike now), and part of that is due to Ferocious Strikes finally being worthwhile again. Sure, I actually have to hit Second Wind fairly often, and I even chug the occasional power pot, but it's not like I'm a Burglar who is out of power after 30s with nothing to do other than beg the LM for power, or a Captain who is in the same boat thanks to no longer wearing will/fate/icpr jewelry.

Our main DPS stance is still highly effective, and our power "issues" are fairly easily managed without having to gimp ourselves. I don't believe that we're being forced into anything.

Originally Posted by Tainted_Black

At 75 and traited martial, I have more armour value on my Champion than I do on my Guardian. Over 10k Armour Value by using Hedge, which I can keep up constantly by equipping the Tight Grip trait.

I've tanked a 12 man Skirmish Raid, School, Library, Ettens Raid and OD on my champ with NO problems maintaining aggro and survivability.
I have 9.9k Morale and 56.2% Physical Mitigation, 49.7% Tactical Mitigation and 68.7% Common Mitigation.

Champs CAN main tank, If you know how to set them up properly that is.

What setup is that, out of curiosity? I can only see getting around 6K without hedge, and hedge is only 2.8K. I'm obviously missing something here.

Just nodding my head to the champ changes. Shield lost was sad but I love my champ now, right next to my mini on list of favorites.

Now fix guards and wardens so they won't hassle our champs, please.

Just one thing, can we please get a legacy replacement for the combat-only effect? We only have one combat effect and it is a debuff from fight-on so using that legacy makes things worse. Raging blade cool-down would obviously be amazing, but if you want to have something that increases buffs, how about either + effect for morale bubbles or increase in damage reflection with exchange of blows or + ticks for second wind.

•Combat - Enable Movement Assistance in Combat - When toggled and a ranged attack is used, you are moved to the middle of the target and have to move away to use execute skills

anyone else ready to quit the game over this massive issue, I cant play anymore, im sorry that I totally rely on movement assistance in combat, but, what did you guys do, Now im fighting Inside the target, its throwing me off because im inside, Im behind, try to move back I go inside or behind again,
sorry besides Visual Astetics being everything, its killed my play by throwing me complete off tilt,

im bearly able to get a mission done and large elite kills which use to be no trouble at all are now impossible,
will this issue be fixed soon before it drives away some players like myself, No I wont shut it off, it slows my reaction times down too much, but with it on it seems some of my powers arent working right either,
Thanks

Originally Posted by Nioleen

anyone else ready to quit the game over this massive issue,

To be honest I am surprised anyone even used this feature. But this isn't a champion feature anyway so this is wrong thread. Others have been ranting elsewhere.

It's a BUG! It will be fixed. If you quit things because of a bug then I'd like to know what OS you use.

Originally Posted by Lohi

To be honest I am surprised anyone even used this feature. But this isn't a champion feature anyway so this is wrong thread. Others have been ranting elsewhere.

It's a BUG! It will be fixed. If you quit things because of a bug then I'd like to know what OS you use.

Quite a few melee people use the combat assist, and though there are threads specifically for that, since it's a feature all players can use if they want or need, champions are included in it.

Some folks do rely on the feature, Lohi. Whether through motor skill or visual skill disabilities, or through just plain laziness, some people simply do rely on it.

For those with disabilities (and I'm one), it is a big deal.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

Some folks do rely on the feature, Lohi. Whether through motor skill or visual skill disabilities, or through just plain laziness, some people simply do rely on it.

Ok, I can see this. However I was responding particularly to the attitude of the post, which seems to imply that it's a personal insult to even have this bug, worth quitting the game over. Of course the player attitudes at this particular time is such that a lot of people are on their last bit of patience.

Lol, that I can understand.

I noticed Second Wind Executes much more faster than before ! Dont know if they changed something about that but it looks like its working great now,

Though my survival skills True heroics, Sudden Defence en Time of Need seem to take ages to execute... Especially used when a emergency skill. more than 10 times i was nearly dead tryed to pop one of the bubbles and it failed. Enough power in my pool so that could use some fine tweaking maybe !

since the game began, my main has been a champ. I used to tank now and again- but rarely, in dire need situations when a guard/warden couldnt be found. I have yet to test a tanking champ since roi. If i wanted to tank i would have rolled a guard/ward but its nice to have the option there. However, I can now solo things i never could before. The bubbles have made champs tougher than vindaloo mutton. Personally i go yellow traited, deathstorm all the way baby! Since finding deathstorm i will not change my traits. I want to be like a hillbilly wielding a chainsaw whos sawn through a hornets nest- deathstorm does this. My only gripe is i now use power when taking on about five six mobs post roi as where pre roi my power consumtion hardly moved. The second wind 10 sec cooldown is a bit annoying, so must be spammed frequently. Only whilst raiding did i everr really need to pop a power pot, if ever. Now Its a case of if im in a pitched 5-6mob showdown solo i have to insist on popping a pot to keep spamming my skills. controlled burn is now dead to me as a skill. fervour no longer gives a -30% healing penalty-yay! All in all with the dire need reduced cooldown, strength of morale and the two bubble skills whilst deathstorm traited- whilst getting to lvl 75 i must have died about twice. Champ is now "mutton vindaloo!"

Originally Posted by nozjfn8085

since the game began, my main has been a champ. I used to tank now and again- but rarely, in dire need situations when a guard/warden couldnt be found. I have yet to test a tanking champ since roi. If i wanted to tank i would have rolled a guard/ward but its nice to have the option there. However, I can now solo things i never could before. The bubbles have made champs tougher than vindaloo mutton. Personally i go yellow traited, deathstorm all the way baby! Since finding deathstorm i will not change my traits. I want to be like a hillbilly wielding a chainsaw whos sawn through a hornets nest- deathstorm does this. My only gripe is i now use power when taking on about five six mobs post roi as where pre roi my power consumtion hardly moved. The second wind 10 sec cooldown is a bit annoying, so must be spammed frequently. Only whilst raiding did i everr really need to pop a power pot, if ever. Now Its a case of if im in a pitched 5-6mob showdown solo i have to insist on popping a pot to keep spamming my skills. controlled burn is now dead to me as a skill. fervour no longer gives a -30% healing penalty-yay! All in all with the dire need reduced cooldown, strength of morale and the two bubble skills whilst deathstorm traited- whilst getting to lvl 75 i must have died about twice. Champ is now "mutton vindaloo!"

I wasn't too thrilled with the Controlled Burn change at first, but I've come to like it. Give it another try - it'll help with your power issues, as the ICPR from CB stacks with your normal ICPR (with CB active my ICPR is a hair under 4500).

Sorry if this is slightly off topic.

But PLEASE can we Champions be allowed to use crossbows ?
Guardians can use them, and I don't see it would give Champs some uber hunter DPS.
I know it's (atleast for me) a purely cosmetic issue, but dang that knobbly stick keeps throwing off my outfits.
if it wasnt such a nice stat-stick I'd leave the slot empty !