Thread: Rise of Isengard: Champion Dev Diary Feedback

Originally Posted by Orion

Oh no, that is there though not called out. It is there.

Falling below 20% health will kick Exalted Combatant and heal the champion for 25% of their max morale. The effect cannot happen for another 90 seconds.

Has the NDA been lifted? A casual stroll to mordor and Doc Holiday have tweeted that it has been lifted and posted some screen shots.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

No I'm not... so... That pretty much makes your post quite void then? Survivability comes from not dying, not from getting free heals because you deliberately keep yourself below 20 %. In other words, it'll be very hard for a champ to die on stroke one. It'll take continued pressure to take kill one. That's fine. But if this renews every 90 seconds I call it OP.

I know that survivability comes from not dying, but you continue to sell this "automatic emergency brake" (if #### hits the fan) as if a champ is being healed for 2.5k every 90 seconds (that was your wording, not mine). Of course it needs continued pressure, but than again, a guard or Warden will likely have more than 2.5k base moral to start with, so where's the big difference here?

Let's try to see it from a PvP point of view (not sure whether you are making this up from creep view or from a guard's/warden's view): If you say you cannot manage to take down 2.5k in 90 seconds, than that's pretty much your problem.

Let's see it from the PvE view: Assuming that #### hits the fan and the self heal kicks in and actually turns the table (the champ does not die), than your healers will most likely have him healed back up to way over 20%, so there's not another 2.5k heal 90 seconds after the first one.

This heal is not like 2.5k/90 seconds as you try to sell it. It's an emergency measure, that might save your raid once, when the #### hits the fan. But it doesn't cause the champ to be more survivable than a guard/warden in general. None of us have seen how numbers work out in game. Maybe champs take that much more damage than a guard or warden that even this e-brake won't save the day - who knows? Why complain about something bein OP when you never ever saw things in action?

Survivability is much more than getting a 2.5k heal once in a blue moon. Let's assume that a champ's 10k buffed moral + 2.5k heal fall a lot faster than a guardians/wardens buffed 14k+ moral, as a champ will never soak up as much damage as a guardian/warden can (through either mitigation or avoidance) - who is more survivable then?

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

I'm sorry, but how did you work that out? The quote above suggests to me that champs will do more damage then a warden/guardian tank and have more survivability at the same time.

Also, where did you work out that a champ will do more damage? You do realize that the changes require the champ do incorporate a massive amount of non-damaging skills into his skill rotation, so just going all-out on DPS won't do the trick? Come back and complain, once you have solid numbers at hands. Neither do you know about the actual survivability a Champ will have by the end of the day, nor do you know anything about the DPS of a champ while tanking. Still you show up here and sell statements like "champs will do more damage then a warden/guardian tank and have more survivability at the same time" as if it was the given truth.

Well the champ heal gets metioned in the thread but it's basically discussing the drawbacks to an activatible wrd skill. This champ heal is a passive, that means we can't activate it every 90 seconds. The LM WotC is an activated skill and is probably a better comparison. Also the dev mentioned this skill not one of the players which makes me wonder if it's even been seen by a beta participant yet.
It will actually be interesting to trait up and try this out while leveling to get the hang of the skill rotation and see what kind of damage we do. Considering the number of ND skills I would guess it would play solo more like a grd/wrd solo speed.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

I'm sorry, but how did you work that out? The quote above suggests to me that champs will do more damage then a warden/guardian tank and have more survivability at the same time. A buffed champ on 10k morale getting a 2.5k heal every 90 seconds? Passively. Without inc. healing included?

I'm just saying, it's OP. If you don't think so, please explain. If you hadn't noticed yet, there's a thread on the warden forum discussing this and it's growing quickly.

Oh, and does it work in PvMP? That would be "fun".

I'll trade my 2.5k "I've been getting the snot beaten out of me" heal every 90s for your ability to Block. If all of the attacks you Block in 90 seconds prevent you from taking more than 2.5k damage, you're coming out ahead of me. If you're not Blocking that much damage in a minute and a half, please equip your shield and try again.

Originally Posted by Lestache

I'll trade my 2.5k "I've been getting the snot beaten out of me" heal every 90s for your ability to Block. If all of the attacks you Block in 90 seconds prevent you from taking more than 2.5k damage, you're coming out ahead of me. If you're not Blocking that much damage in a minute and a half, please equip your shield and try again.

This. We're not getting the skill as a bonus - we're getting it as compensation for losing the ability to equip shields.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I know that survivability comes from not dying, but you continue to sell this "automatic emergency brake" (if #### hits the fan) as if a champ is being healed for 2.5k every 90 seconds (that was your wording, not mine). Of course it needs continued pressure, but than again, a guard or Warden will likely have more than 2.5k base moral to start with, so where's the big difference here?

Again: Champs are not being healed every 90 seconds (or should not). I said that twice now. I can't help if you ignore my wording or else doesn't understand the difference of an oh-#### skill and deliberately putting yourself at risk to get a free heal. Because it is an "automatic emergency brake", a passive oh-#### skill if you will. So far as I can tell, anyway. (I'd love to be proved wrong, which is why I spoke up.)

And I'm sorry, I have no idea why you mention ward/guard having more then 2.5k base morale.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Let's try to see it from a PvP point of view (not sure whether you are making this up from creep view or from a guard's/warden's view): If you say you cannot manage to take down 2.5k in 90 seconds, than that's pretty much your problem.

Let's see it from the PvE view: Assuming that #### hits the fan and the self heal kicks in and actually turns the table (the champ does not die), than your healers will most likely have him healed back up to way over 20%, so there's not another 2.5k heal 90 seconds after the first one.

As for PvP. I am not so biased as you hope I am - I don't take sides and do my best to stay objective. I realise by your offensive attitude that I hit some sort of champ-nerve. Anyway since this requires champs to be traited deep into it, I see how this might not be a problem in etten. Not that you brought up that argument, but still.

As for the PvE argument. What? It saves that champ and.. why would you keep him below 20 %? For the third time, I never suggested that.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

This heal is not like 2.5k/90 seconds as you try to sell it. It's an emergency measure, that might save your raid once [...]

Survivability is much more than getting a 2.5k heal once in a blue moon. [...]

You hit the nail here. It's not something "that might save your raid once", nor something which might happen "once in a blue moon". It's on a 90 second cooldown. That is very, very short for something which might very will make an encounter break or cake...

I hope you see my point.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Also, where did you work out that a champ will do more damage? You do realize that the changes require the champ do incorporate a massive amount of non-damaging skills into his skill rotation, so just going all-out on DPS won't do the trick? Come back and complain, once you have solid numbers at hands. Neither do you know about the actual survivability a Champ will have by the end of the day, nor do you know anything about the DPS of a champ while tanking. Still you show up here and sell statements like "champs will do more damage then a warden/guardian tank and have more survivability at the same time" as if it was the given truth.

You have a point, of course. But you're selling your own view that I am entirely wrong on the same principle. You don't know that I'm wrong. I explained why I think it sounds OP. You haven't given any reason why it's not - other then saying that I can't possibly know it is.

Originally Posted by Maetho

It will actually be interesting to trait up and try this out while leveling to get the hang of the skill rotation and see what kind of damage we do.

I agree. It will be very interesting to see where it leads.

Originally Posted by narsica

This. We're not getting the skill as a bonus - we're getting it as compensation for losing the ability to equip shields.

Thank you. I think that's the first, actual argument someone put up against me.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

After skimming through all of the pages, why do so many people complain about "having to relearn their class", "they've broken the class" or "they've changed the champion's playstyle"?

Because we can't change classes and keep XP, which means that a decision we made 65 levels ago based on the way Champ was played then might now be rendered useless, and we have to reroll if we don't like the way Champ is played now - which is doubly annoying if you RP.

As I see it, the majority of the champs out there play the champ as a DPS class and stay in fervour for like 95% of their time.

As I see it, 100% of champs out there decided to play the champ based on how the champ was set up.

And everyone who plays a Champion to be a shield tank most of the time - I guess you just rolled the wrong class in the first place.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Warden and Guardian are pay classes. Some people (no, not myself, I'm VIP and buy points) take "Free to Play" seriously, which means if they want to be a damage absorber, they need to play champion.

I don't really have a problem with the tweaking that they've done to the various traits/etc. My main complaint is that they stole the shield that I spent a good many gold on a few months back. Some of us do use the shield when solo or in small fellowships. It can mean the difference between success and failure.

I've always found the champ to be the conservative among my characters. The DPS isn't stellar (my LM wipes the floor with the champ in DPS), but that's made up for by the fact that he can carry a boatload of armor to help him survive long enough for his mediocre DPS to get the kill. Now he's going to be robbed of over 2,000 armor, (and as I mentioned above, all the gold he spent on that armor which has now been poured down a rathole) which to my mind weakens the soloability of the class.

One thing that Turbine, along with just about every other MMO company out there, tends to forget is that not everyone wants to lolraid. Raids might be fun from time to time, but repeating the same raid over and over, while doubtless appealing to some, is not everyone's cup of tea. Far more fun to wander solo and see what trouble we can get in to. It seems to me, and admittedly I can't be sure until I actually play the changes, that I just took a big hit in solo, and even small fellowship, play.

imma just leave these here for anyone still worried about shieldless champ glory soloing

Yes, very nice, in all but one of those you used CB.

Originally Posted by eslader

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Warden and Guardian are pay classes. Some people (no, not myself, I'm VIP and buy points) take "Free to Play" seriously, which means if they want to be a damage absorber, they need to play champion.

Correction: Guardian is not a pay class.

Originally Posted by eslader

I've always found the champ to be the conservative among my characters. The DPS isn't stellar (my LM wipes the floor with the champ in DPS), but that's made up for by the fact that he can carry a boatload of armor to help him survive long enough for his mediocre DPS to get the kill.

I'm sorry, but if this is true the problem is that you don't know how to play a champ.

Originally Posted by eslader

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Warden and Guardian are pay classes. Some people (no, not myself, I'm VIP and buy points) take "Free to Play" seriously, which means if they want to be a damage absorber, they need to play champion.

wardens and rks (the classes added with moria) are the only ones that have ever needed to be bought.

Originally Posted by eslader

I've always found the champ to be the conservative among my characters. The DPS isn't stellar (my LM wipes the floor with the champ in DPS), but that's made up for by the fact that he can carry a boatload of armor to help him survive long enough for his mediocre DPS to get the kill.

if your champ is being outdpsed by an lm then you're doing something very very wrong.

Originally Posted by teviko

Yes, very nice, in all but one of those you used CB.

remember cb is just a buff (rather than a stance) now. think of it as the champ version of burn hot, stacking on top of stance benefits.

Originally Posted by eslader

I've always found the champ to be the conservative among my characters. The DPS isn't stellar (my LM wipes the floor with the champ in DPS), but that's made up for by the fact that he can carry a boatload of armor to help him survive long enough for his mediocre DPS to get the kill. Now he's going to be robbed of over 2,000 armor, (and as I mentioned above, all the gold he spent on that armor which has now been poured down a rathole) which to my mind weakens the soloability of the class.

Hang on you soloed your champ with a shield? Why ?? What were you thinking ?
No wonder you thought the DPS isn't stellar. Champs are anything but conservative they are the most insane class in the game. A true champs outlook on life is "Live fast die young". Any fight at lvl65 when you end up with more than 500 morale at the end just means you didn't pull enough mobs and so on. (Personally I'm disappointed if it's more than 100 but you clearly are the cautious type)

Originally Posted by eslader

Because we can't change classes and keep XP, which means that a decision we made 65 levels ago based on the way Champ was played then might now be rendered useless, and we have to reroll if we don't like the way Champ is played now - which is doubly annoying if you RP.



As I see it, 100% of champs out there decided to play the champ based on how the champ was set up.

Exactly, and the way a champ was set up for DPS and the playstyle of the Champion in fervour didn't change at all. Fervour got a little buff here and there but otherwise the playstyle wasn't touched at all. The huge changes were made to the tanking line. So how many champs in this forums want to be main tank instead of DPS? I don't see the impact of glory changes on RP, but mayby that's just me?

Originally Posted by eslader

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Warden and Guardian are pay classes. Some people (no, not myself, I'm VIP and buy points) take "Free to Play" seriously, which means if they want to be a damage absorber, they need to play champion.

As already said by others the guardian is not a pay class

Originally Posted by eslader

I don't really have a problem with the tweaking that they've done to the various traits/etc. My main complaint is that they stole the shield that I spent a good many gold on a few months back. Some of us do use the shield when solo or in small fellowships. It can mean the difference between success and failure.

If you use a shield for questing or any kind of fellowship content, then something's seriously wrong. Trust me, any kind of fellowship content can also be done without a shield, most of it in Fervour. You really only need shields and a full glory spec (blue line) if you want to main tank end game raids (even that doesn't always hold true; yesterday our warden died at about 40% of Frothmar's health and Frothmar turned to me; I just switched to glory, albeit not being traited for tanking and also not wearing a shield, and we finished the fight with me tanking the last 40%).

Originally Posted by eslader

I've always found the champ to be the conservative among my characters. The DPS isn't stellar (my LM wipes the floor with the champ in DPS), but that's made up for by the fact that he can carry a boatload of armor to help him survive long enough for his mediocre DPS to get the kill.

That explains a lot. If you are outdps'ed by your LM, then you just don't know how to DPS on your Champ. Currently the Champion is the number 1 damage dealer, single target and AoE (if we are talking sustained DPS; burst DPS may be higher for some other classes)

Originally Posted by eslader

It seems to me, and admittedly I can't be sure until I actually play the changes, that I just took a big hit in solo, and even small fellowship, play.

No, you didn't. Just learn how to use fervour and how to DPS and you'll get along a lot better (unless you plan on soloing crazy stuff as seen in the Solo Champion Thread in the Champ forums).

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Again: Champs are not being healed every 90 seconds (or should not). I said that twice now. I can't help if you ignore my wording or else doesn't understand the difference of an oh-#### skill and deliberately putting yourself at risk to get a free heal. Because it is an "automatic emergency brake", a passive oh-#### skill if you will. So far as I can tell, anyway. (I'd love to be proved wrong, which is why I spoke up.)

I don't ignore your wording, here's your initial post:

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

A buffed champ on 10k morale getting a 2.5k heal every 90 seconds? Passively. Without inc. healing included?

That's your wording, not mine. That's why I tried to explain to you, that this is not as easy as getting 2.5k morale every 90 seconds, but rather an automatic "Oh ####"-Skill. So please don't twist words the way you like.

You were the one trying to sell the exalted combatant as a free 2.5k heal every 90 seconds.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

And I'm sorry, I have no idea why you mention ward/guard having more then 2.5k base morale.

Because you're firing at the Champion update for the "fact" that Champions may be more survivable than guardians/wardens. Having 10k morale and getting a 2.5k moral heal when down to 20% doesn't make champs stand longer than a guard/warden with potentially 14k or 15k moral (whatever they will have then), especially if a champ's morale bar goes down a lot faster (due to not having the mitigation or evasion of a guardian or warden).

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

As for PvP. I am not so biased as you hope I am - I don't take sides and do my best to stay objective. I realise by your offensive attitude that I hit some sort of champ-nerve. Anyway since this requires champs to be traited deep into it, I see how this might not be a problem in etten. Not that you brought up that argument, but still.

Ar first I'm not trying to be offensive in any way, just trying put things into perspective. I apologize if you feel offended in any way - that was not my intention.

I just brought up the PvP view, as I wan't sure where you're hatred for the champ changes comes from. And you were the one saying "Oh, and does it work in PvMP? That would be fun", so I thought you may see this from a creep's view.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

As for the PvE argument. What? It saves that champ and.. why would you keep him below 20 %? For the third time, I never suggested that.

You hit the nail here. It's not something "that might save your raid once", nor something which might happen "once in a blue moon". It's on a 90 second cooldown. That is very, very short for something which might very will make an encounter break or cake...

Exactly, it may save the Champion if #### hits the fan (note: it may save him, but it's also likely that the 2.5k won't be enough for the fellowship to recover from that 'Oh ####' moment). If the exalted combatant saved the day and the fellowship recovered, the champion will then most likely be healed up to way above the threshold, so you're no way near exploiting the CD of the heal. That being said, I don't see why this would make a champ any bit more survivable than a guardian/warden. Especially since a guardian/warden would last much longer before the #### would have hit the fan - that's survivability. In addition to a guardian/warden being more survivable than a Champion (even if the tank didn't get a heal at all), they are also easier to keep up by the healers, as they've got higher morale buffers and take less damage.

You are again focussing on that 90 seconds cooldown, as if the heal would be used every 90 seconds. If in any group situation the #### his the fan every 90 seconds, then this 2.5k heal won't be good enough to get the group/raid through the encounter, because there's something terribly going wrong in the fight. Do you think, a group that is deep into trouble every 90 seconds will be saved by a 2.5k heal on the tank?

To maky my point clear: There is just no fight, that will be "cake" due to the exalted combatant state, especially not up to a point where raids will prefer champ tanks over guardians/wardens or where Champs are more survivable than a classic tank class. If I get to choose between a tank that'll do just fine without having to resort to 'Oh ####'-skills and who will be easy to keep up by my healers or a Champ tank that struggles from one 'Oh ####, I need that 2.5k heal'-moment to the next like every 90 seconds - guess which tank will be preferable?

I hope you see my point.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

You have a point, of course. But you're selling your own view that I am entirely wrong on the same principle. You don't know that I'm wrong. I explained why I think it sounds OP. You haven't given any reason why it's not - other then saying that I can't possibly know it is.

But I'm not the one firing away on things, that you have no real facts on. You don't know how the exalted combatant and the rest of the glory changes work out at all, but still you come here to cry based on mere assumptions. And you didn't say it sounds OP. You outright said that is was OP:

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

I'm just saying, it's OP. If you don't think so, please explain.

I honestly don't think so and have tried my best to explain why I don't think that it's OP. In my opinion it's nowhere near OP.

So how about just wait to see how things really are, before complaining on changes to a class you don't even play (at least not as your main char).

One other thing to consider is they gave Caps 2H block, they could have given that to champs also. As Orion stated the purpose of redesigning the champ tanking was to to make playing in glory feel the same (or as close as possible) to playing in fervour. This would make me think this 2.5k heal would be included to handle spike dmg which is most likely higher on a class without block.
This would give the healer a chance to catch up in a stiuation where corruptions build up and mob dps jumps temporarily till corruptions are removed for instance. There are several fights like this in the game already so that would be my guess for why the mechanism is there. For Guardians GP takes dmg intake to almost 0 for its duration in most situations I've used my guard in so I don't see where this skill is as useful as that or any other skill that can be activated at will by the other classes that can tank.

Yet another thing to consider is that there may be a good chance for the exalted combatant heal not to be helpful at all. Lets assume our 10k Champ Tank is at 2200 morale (therfore 200 point short of the treshold) and suddenyl takes a crit of let's say 3k damage. He'd be dead in an instant without the heal kicking in. Guard's pledge is a lot better in a scenario like this + it may very well prevent way more than 3k damage.

Athelious (as always) does it better than I can:



As an aside, for additional reference - in 75 GB, Thadur hits for 1.3k minor shadow damage. He crits for 5.5-6k shadow damage. He also gets a shadow damage reflect that starts at 25%, and tiers up to 75% near the end.

In 75 School, the archers can crit for up to 5k.

I'll let you all ponder that for a while.

That video was very nice. I like how health bubbles are presented with the purple morale bar segment. The champ seemed very sturdy, although I doubt that this was an average champ playing. I am curious, as I was not able to tell from the video, how much morale did that mob have? Seemed to be a lot. Of course, I've been optimistic about the champ changes from the start.

Originally Posted by renorin

That video was very nice. I like how health bubbles are presented with the purple morale bar segment. The champ seemed very sturdy, although I doubt that this was an average champ playing. I am curious, as I was not able to tell from the video, how much morale did that mob have? Seemed to be a lot. Of course, I've been optimistic about the champ changes from the start.

Cloben has about 105k morale unless they changed it with RoI.

Originally Posted by renorin

That video was very nice. I like how health bubbles are presented with the purple morale bar segment. The champ seemed very sturdy, although I doubt that this was an average champ playing. I am curious, as I was not able to tell from the video, how much morale did that mob have? Seemed to be a lot. Of course, I've been optimistic about the champ changes from the start.

Watching the video in Fullscreen...

Cloben had 135k Morale and change - impressive video by a good player

Well, I play a Champion and a Guardian and I start wondering what I made the guardian for.
I like tanking, but the Champion is supposed to be a off-tank, personal guard for the minstrel and rune keeper healer.

Making him a primary tank seems a little over the top.

Originally Posted by Neumi

Well, I play a Champion and a Guardian and I start wondering what I made the guardian for.
I like tanking, but the Champion is supposed to be a off-tank, personal guard for the minstrel and rune keeper healer.

Making him a primary tank seems a little over the top.

Where do all the tanking class players read that a champion will become the primary tank? As clearly stated by Orion the Champ Tank will not become preferable over guardians/wardens. As for the Cloben solo kill, that is an impressive feat, but it doesn't give any hint on the champ's viability as a tank. Just to put things in perspective, Cloben has already been taken down solo by wardens (claiming it was not even a real challenge) under current live settings (being at level 65, wearing current gear and prior to any updates that may come with RoI; the champion in that video was level 72, probably wearing 65+ gear and for sure using skills, that will first be available with RoI) - does this make wardens better tanks than guardians? I don't think so. Have you ever been denied by a raid because they were looking for a warden and didn't want a guardian for tanking duty?

Please just wait to see how things really work out with the release of Isengard prior to complaining how champions would steal the tanks' jobs.

I am playing LOTRO for about 6 months and mainly as a champion although I am not yet tweaked as i wish.
In general terms changes seem positive but i will have to play it to get a final opinnion.
I always see the champion as true beserker and and with more added value in a fellowship as truly DPS and AOE DPS (I especially enjoy playing alognside with a good guardian = true tank as i believe we are 2 very complementary classes).

I never liked trying to play tank and the only times i did it were more in a supportive role for a true tank. Loosing shield sounds great and will allow me to release bag/storage space.
I do understand the concerns of those that are able to be good champ tanks and the flexibility it provides to suit objectives and some difficulties in terms of fellowship compositions but i have always focused on improving whats I see as mian class function: damage. For me there is no better game image than AoE criting.

I have always felt the "assumed" extra DPS of the class was not as it should to compensate our weaker defense and for being a close combat class and therefore mores exposed to both range and close combat foes.
From what i understood from developer's diary it seems this will be improved for fervour stance and I really look forward to trying it out.

I have just one major concern, that may derive from missunderstanding the diary, and it has to do with class traiting. My class traiting has always mixed beserker and eye of the storm with a bit more beserker. From what i understood the changes planned will be more penalizing for those not following clearly 1 single trait line. I hope i am wrong as it is my impression that game sequences especially instances (solo or group ones) are always mobs > bosses > bosses+mobs and being just traited for a single target or just for AoE is very restrictive considering that our (my) function remains the same = Damage dealing.

Cheers

Originally Posted by MajUntagent

wardens and rks (the classes added with moria) are the only ones that have ever needed to be bought.

Fair enough.

if your champ is being outdpsed by an lm then you're doing something very very wrong.

Educate me then. How do you get a champ to out-dps a LM that's spazzing out and firing all of the heavy hitting specials available to him?

Originally Posted by eslader

Educate me then. How do you get a champ to out-dps a LM that's spazzing out and firing all of the heavy hitting specials available to him?

You wait until that LM is on CD while you keep hitting your big skills. Champ has never been a nuke class, we get outnuked by Hunters, LMs and RKs, but sustained DPS which is what he was talking about is higher for a champ. A really simple test is the turtle raid, in a 12 man raid, a single champ can end up doing 25-30% of the total damage done to the turtle - I don't believe any other class can sustain their dps during that fight.

Originally Posted by Neumi

Well, I play a Champion and a Guardian and I start wondering what I made the guardian for.

You have to ask yourself that, only you know the answer. Basically Champion and Guardian are extremely different classes. Maybe they overlap a lot on roles but the play style is not the same. I know someone who wanted to play guardian because he felt a strong need to be the main tank. But he hated how guardian played and did not like the reactive skills and decided to drop it. Now we have a choice of 2 tanking classes and with champion changes there will be 3 (I doubt champion will be better than guardian but will be good enough for many instances I think).

I like this game for having options and not the boring old one-class-per-role that some other games do. If I'm in a group with my champion and we can not find a tank then I have a choice to become the tank. I've done this a lot in the past and I suspect many champions do this also. Currently being a tank is tricky on champion.

I think there's a bit of disconnect between the casual/PUG player base who takes the classes and characters that they can get, and the dedicated kinship raiding player base who always take the same players to the same instance every time.

Originally Posted by Lohi

I think there's a bit of disconnect between the casual/PUG player base who takes the classes and characters that they can get, and the dedicated kinship raiding player base who always take the same players to the same instance every time.

Oddly enough, I tend to think of it just the other way around - I've seen PuGs that are looking for a very specific class makeup and are loath to deviate therefrom, while my raiding kin usually takes whatever classes we have available that particular night, even if it means the group makeup isn't "ideal".

To be fair, however, I've seen exactly what you describe, too - PuGs made up of whatever, and kin groups that aren't imaginative/talented enough to operate outside their ideal setup.

Originally Posted by eslader

Educate me then. How do you get a champ to out-dps a LM that's spazzing out and firing all of the heavy hitting specials available to him?

LM has good burst damage but over time this is harder to do. They have to stop to regain power and they need healing because those flashy displays of nature skills use up morale, and the really big hitters have cooldowns as well. Champions however deal out a more constant supply of damage and they don't use much power doing this so they can keep dishing out the damage for a long period. There are some times when an LM damage is just what a group needs though but those are specialize purposes.

I've never seen a LFF advertisement that has said something like "5/6, need LM or minnie for DPS slot". When a fellowship needs a DPS role filled they will want hunter, champion, or rune keeper.

Makes me lol so hard how little Turbine understands fervour tanking.
Do they realize that in the attempt to make it more difficult they made it easier?

Another point I'd like to make: They managed to make the champion class more complex and at the same time eaiser to play. Is that what they intented? They did a pretty good job at it.

champs, sorry for the spam but I got a question

Dear Orion
Is GraalX2 alive? Is he reading our posts?

Sincerely,

a guard

That is all

I use glory stance dual weilding 90% of the time so taking away the ability to use shields is no worry to me

I don't really understand what the problem is, if champs can tank as well as guardians in most content. It only helps groups to fill the slots and saves them from waiting and spamming LFF.

When the RK appeared, minstrels where said to be marginalized. Today, people still spam heal requests in chat and are happy to see minstrels or RKs fill the role.

Same with wardens, for tanking.

Now champs will be a more viable third tanking class. Yay for champs who want to mix things up. Yay for groups who need tanks when there are no guardians or wardens around. And yay for guardians and wardens since nothing changes for them.

Whenever discussions like this pop up, all I can do is snigger and think of this:

http://youtu.be/768h3Tz4Qik

Originally Posted by Ronigard

I don't really understand what the problem is, if champs can tank as well as guardians in most content. It only helps groups to fill the slots and saves them from waiting and spamming LFF.

When the RK appeared, minstrels where said to be marginalized. Today, people still spam heal requests in chat and are happy to see minstrels or RKs fill the role.

Same with wardens, for tanking.

Now champs will be a more viable third tanking class. Yay for champs who want to mix things up. Yay for groups who need tanks when there are no guardians or wardens around. And yay for guardians and wardens since nothing changes for them.

Whenever discussions like this pop up, all I can do is snigger and think of this:

http://youtu.be/768h3Tz4Qik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgIrXKpv2gw

Will "reprisal" make EoB activate more often to different kinds of damage, additionally?
Or has the regular untreated version been changed so EoB procs off of shadow/fire damage in addition to common?

Kinda the way the Patience trait works on live currently, only the trait is made useless when actually in glory, or after you've popped CB.

So if champs can't use a shield won't we lose the armor value from our shields? Does the change refer to heavy shields as well? The heavy shield I use has 2k armor value and I'm wondering where we're going to make up the difference in armor and other stats like might, etc.

Originally Posted by Chris2

So if champs can't use a shield won't we lose the armor value from our shields? Does the change refer to heavy shields as well? The heavy shield I use has 2k armor value and I'm wondering where we're going to make up the difference in armor and other stats like might, etc.

That's why glory stance was revamped completely - to compensate for the loss of heavy shields. Whether this works out well enough to be a viable main tank remains to be seen. At least for soloing the glory overhaul seems to be a good thing.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

That's why glory stance was revamped completely - to compensate for the loss of heavy shields. Whether this works out well enough to be a viable main tank remains to be seen. At least for soloing the glory overhaul seems to be a good thing.

This is all a bit confusing for me because the dev diaries seem to be talking about fervor tanking as well.

I rarely used glory unless I was trying to fill a tanking role and When I did try to tank I was never any good at it anyways, I didn't seem to be able to take enough damage to do the job well. So I mainly stuck to filling the dps role with a real tank where ardor and glory were bad choices because of the melee damage penalty.

I don't really know what the devs were trying to fix. IMHO the champ isn't a good tank now and by reducing our armor value even more we're going to be even worse at it. Furthermore the stats bonus we got from our shields will also be lost. Its great that I'll be able to parry and evade in fervor but again with a proper tank its of no benefit to me.

I've yet to be on a run with a champ tank, do any of the champs here regularly fulfill the role of a tank?

Originally Posted by Chris2

This is all a bit confusing for me because the dev diaries seem to be talking about fervor tanking as well.

I rarely used glory unless I was trying to fill a tanking role and When I did try to tank I was never any good at it anyways, I didn't seem to be able to take enough damage to do the job well. So I mainly stuck to filling the dps role with a real tank where ardor and glory were bad choices because of the melee damage penalty.

I don't really know what the devs were trying to fix. IMHO the champ isn't a good tank now and by reducing our armor value even more we're going to be even worse at it. Furthermore the stats bonus we got from our shields will also be lost. Its great that I'll be able to parry and evade in fervor but again with a proper tank its of no benefit to me.

I've yet to be on a run with a champ tank, do any of the champs here regularly fulfill the role of a tank?

You will not be able to Parry or Evade in Fervour; only in Glory or Ardour. Blocking is gone as there are no more shields for the champion. Stats are transferred to skills, making the benefits of certain skills more important to your rotation than the shield was as a static item. Hedge - pretty much replaces the shield for a Glory Champion.

Glory has no more damage penalty, of course it also does not have big damage bonus like fervour.