Thread: Rise of Isengard: Champion Dev Diary Feedback

Originally Posted by Jennifern

Glory

So, you've given glory stance a load of critical hit defence and reduced the cooldown of some skills that increase champ survivability. Thats kinda nice I guess. Whether that will provide as much survivability as a heavy shield we'll have to wait and see.

However, generating threat might still be a problem. The main way to generate threat will remain through doing damaging skills. Now that we're dual-wielding and the -15% damage buff has been removed from glory, our DPS should be ok but im not convined it'll be enough to maintain aggro over other classes. I would hope it would, as essentially in a fervour champ versus glory champ situation, the fervour champ is dealing 20% more dps whilst glory champ generates 60% more threat. Will wait and see I guess. Guardians and Wardens will still remain better tanks though.

Guardians and Wardens will be different tanks. Champs will not become the preferred tank, this is true. Champs in Glory will generate threat many ways - provided that they trait for threat - Wild Attack, Blade-wall, Exchange of Blows, Champion's Challenge, True Heroics...Raging Blade...

Originally Posted by Jennifern

Ardour:

Still seems like a waste of a stance. Lower power costs and threat is all well and good, but if fervour stance gives +20% damage then fervour is still superior to ardour in every situation.

Survivability and unwanted threat gen, many targets, better chance to hit with AoE (consistency) it will occupy a slightly different spot than fervour.

Originally Posted by Jennifern

Fervour:

As mentioned above, removal of healing penalty, permanent flurry and reduced threat is all great, it'll make being an average champ even easier, and I'm definitely just an average champ :P. However, for those who are already good at their class, keeping up flurry isnt difficult and if you are with a good tank then threat/healing isn't an issue.

But, the changes you've made to CBR dont seem right. I guess you've basically just moved this skill from being a primarily solo ability where healing doesn't matter and you can regen between fights, to a group play ability where with a bit of healing the champ can really pull out some big DPS. Kind of like an alternate version of Fight On!

Or when you have a dedicated healer nearby.

Originally Posted by Korrigan

The tanking changes sounds awesome.

A question though. Shield often had very nice tanking effects (like damage absorption) on them. Will we be compensated for that, with e.g. 2H tanking weapons with similar stats?

Thanks.

Not directly. Then again, your itemization is different now.

Originally Posted by Thanatos88

With the change to defeat events, are minis going to get a change to our Song of Aid and Call to Greatness.

I would recommend increase melee damage, but I am open to other ideas. I recommend this b/c it makes champs in dps mode fulfill their role better, and it makes champs who are tanking fulfill their role better. Crit chance/magnitude helps one or the other not so much both.

-or-

Give more fervor pips

Just seems like a waste not to change two of our buffs if you are going to change defeat events so drastically for champs.

Please don't leave these skills Champ worthless.

Thanks for your consideration.

Disclaimer: I don't play a champ, so I am not sure what the changes will do in totality, but I do know that giving defeat events to champs is one of my favorite ways to initiate boss/hard pulls. If I am horribly misunderstanding sorry in advance.

It has been changed, but that is a minstrel skill.

Thanks for the response Orion, looking forward to trying out the changes in game.

Originally Posted by Orion

Use of Ebbing and Rising Ire will no advance this deed.

While I have little sympathy for people who've purposely decided to not acquire class traits, does this mean that the new Champlings will have to be in a group to advance the At The Ready deed?

Originally Posted by Gwyndor

Not sadly, happily and rightly so! Because mate, Champs are not, never have been, never should be a dedicated tanking class.
...
Could the day soon arrrive where a Champion is chosen as a raid's main tank [b]ahead of a Guardian or Warden?

No. You misunderstand perhaps.

I think the goal is to have champions be able to main tank more effectively than they do not, but this does not mean main tanking in a full blown raid with tricked out players. There is more to the game than raids remember and classes aren't designed only around raids.

For instance it is reasonably common for people to ask my champion to tank because the PUG or kin can't find someone else to do it at a moment's notice. This is not even at max level. I want to do Fornost, can't find a tank, I suppose I can try to tank if I must. Glory stance today helps with that, retraiting helps even more. But retraiting is expensive and slows everyone down. And where a Warden says "let me get off a couple of gambits before you start pounding on the enemy, my champion and others seem to want much much longer than this because currently Glory does not build up that much threat. Many champions seem to want to tank in Ardour instead (or before healing penalty even tanking in Fervour).

So with the changes it seems it could be much more viable to have a casual champion just switch to Glory stance and become a better tank w/o retraiting or saying "oops sorry, my heavy shield is about ten levels out of date". Not viable for raids of course, since raids are tweaked so that only some players can accomplish them, but certainly good enough for three-person instances or full fellowship a few levels up (ie, main tanking Skumfil at level 65), or maybe even on-level instance if the rest of the team is very skilled and coordinated.

I feel this is analogous to having a Captain be a main healer when you can't find anyone else to heal.

Originally Posted by CmdrMagic

ummm....exactly... we should have 9 DISTINCT classes....Champs are primarily meant to be DPS, Burgs are suppose to be utility.... hence the TONS of tricks burglars have.

Because it adds flexibility. That's a good thing and one of the things I really like about this game. I've been in others where if you weren't the main healing class that everyone claims is the best they won't let you heal, or if you're not the best tank you can't tank. This often meant that you'd spend an hour trying to get a mid level instance group together just to give up and have to try again another day. But here I have had success getting a first-come-first-served group together and succeeding because classes have more than one trick and they are more flexibly.

Hey Orion, I know it's a little late to ask but it wouldn't hurt I suppose.
Is there any chance you can alter Hamstring so it doesn't require the Champion to be in combat to use?

Lol at new ROI skills.How creative , only improved,improved , enhanced.. not a singly new 1 true dmg skill..

Sprint didnt changed sigh,,, i wanted to run like reaver

I think champions should have a class trait that is similar to the hunter class trait Deadly precision.

Hello Turbine. I think everything I have typed so far is accurate. I use the word think because I have yet to recently double check if everything I have typed has remained the same.

The hunter can slot the deadly precision trait. http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Deadly_Precision

The deadly precision trait can allow the hunter to generate 1 focus when the hunter lands a critical hit with a ranged attack.

The hunter’s focus is similar to the champion’s fervour. The hunter needs a specific amount of focus to use specific skills. Similarly, the champion needs a specific amount of fervour to use specific skills.

Since the hunter has the trait deadly precision, I think champions should have a trait called Deadly Frenzy or Deadly Rage that is similar to the hunter class trait Deadly Precision. The trait called Deadly Rage or Deadly Frenzy could replace the trait Blood-lust class trait.

If the deadly rage trait existed the deadly rage trait could allow the champion to generate 1 fervour when the champion lands a critical hit with a melee attack.

Deadly rage could be the class trait to champions as the trait deadly precision is to hunters if the deadly rage trait existed. The tool tip for deadly rage could say: When you land a critical hit with a melee attack, your fervour increases by 1. The deadly rage trait could replace the Blood-lust class trait if the deadly rage trait existed. If the deadly rage trait existed, it could allow the champion to generate a massive amount of additional fervour. The hunter class trait Deadly precision can allow the hunter to generate a massive amount of additional focus. It would be fantastic if the deadly rage or deadly frenzy class trait could exist. Thank you.


Also, I think Stats and Skills Should Scale With The Current Level Cap.

Hello Turbine. I think everything I have typed so far is accurate. I use the word think because I have yet to recently double check if everything I have typed has remained the same.

Stats:

Hello Turbine. Unfortunately, stats do not scale with the current level cap. When you level up from level one to level fifty you gain morale, power, agility, might, vitality, will, and fate. Unfortunately, after you reach level fifty you only gain morale and power for each additional level beyond level fifty. You should gain will, agility, might, vitality, and fate for every level as you gained for every level before reaching level fifty one.

Skills:

The power costs of nearly all your skills increases as you level. Unfortunately, certain skills do not scale as you level. For example, in defenses of middle earth, tale of heroism, tale of battle, bow of righteousness, bolster courage, and other skills do not scale with the current level cap of level sixty five. Our power costs for nearly all our skills seem to scale though.

It would help to have all level sixty five stats and level sixty five skills to compensate for the increased power cost of nearly every skill. A way to fix this issue is to add +1 to might, agility, fate, will, and vitality on every character for each level they have gained. Also, our skills should scale since the power cost scales. Hopefully, since we are level 65 we can get level 65 stats soon. As of right now, if our stats were to scale we would have 15 more might, will, fate, vitality, and agility then we did at level 50. Thank You.

Hey again Orion =)

I have a 45 champ, so I'm not eligible to be talking about endgaming and all. I liked to read all the changes and how Ardour will be useful again. Its making me want ot take the rust of my champ again! Only two changes I disliked:

Second Wind: It was fun to use this between monsters while soloing, grouping or doing classic instances. It has a feelign that the champion "catches a breath" between opponents or just feel energized by (him or his group) defeating them hehe. Making it have 10 second duration and 10 second cooldown just means that you permanently increased the total icpr of every champion who remembers to press the skill every 10 seconds (buffbars will remind some of us lol). Hope you guys are not planning to make this game too easy... I like the enemy-defeat mechanics, its fun. Mostly, it takes away some of the fun of the mechanics imo. Maybe increasing its cooldown to 30 seocnds or 1 minute (and effectiveness of course) to make champions decide when its best/needed to use it would make it more fun? Just suggesting.

Fervour Stance Threat Generation: Removing it's incoming healing debuff and saying that this was compensated by making they generate less threat in Fervour is a major (maybe some OP) change. You're not saying to champions "you can't tank in this stance) because champions won't want to tank or offtank in fervour anyway (specialy with the changes in glory and ardour now, which are nice). You're just saying "hey boys, dps more and don't worry about threat, it had been automaticaly reduced to your stance". What about using that threat transfer skill (forgot its name) for fervour champs who wants to dps more freely without taking threta for tank (by xfering 25% of their total threta to the tnak is a HUGE tool and guarantee this already). You're also saying to them "even with the threat redduction, don't worry about getting aggro, you'll be healed fine". I was going to suggest that they keep their -30% incoming healing BUT make them don't get extra penalty healing for having more red traits equipped, like "-30% is enough".

Originally Posted by DireLegend14

I think champions should have a class trait that is similar to the hunter class trait Deadly precision.

Hello Turbine. I think everything I have typed so far is accurate. I use the word think because I have yet to recently double check if everything I have typed has remained the same.

The hunter can slot the deadly precision trait. http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Deadly_Precision

The deadly precision trait can allow the hunter to generate 1 focus when the hunter lands a critical hit with a ranged attack.

The hunter’s focus is similar to the champion’s fervour. The hunter needs a specific amount of focus to use specific skills. Similarly, the champion needs a specific amount of fervour to use specific skills.

Since the hunter has the trait deadly precision, I think champions should have a trait called Deadly Frenzy or Deadly Rage that is similar to the hunter class trait Deadly Precision. The trait called Deadly Rage or Deadly Frenzy could replace the trait Blood-lust class trait.

If the deadly rage trait existed the deadly rage trait could allow the champion to generate 1 fervour when the champion lands a critical hit with a melee attack.

Deadly rage could be the class trait to champions as the trait deadly precision is to hunters if the deadly rage trait existed. The tool tip for deadly rage could say: When you land a critical hit with a melee attack, your fervour increases by 1. The deadly rage trait could replace the Blood-lust class trait if the deadly rage trait existed. If the deadly rage trait existed, it could allow the champion to generate a massive amount of additional fervour. The hunter class trait Deadly precision can allow the hunter to generate a massive amount of additional focus. It would be fantastic if the deadly rage or deadly frenzy class trait could exist. Thank you.

1. champs aren't hunters- if every class was a slightly different version of another class we'd have a pretty boring game.
2. we already have two traits that give extra pips on crits with the two main pip building skills- pip building isn't an issue at all now unless you're doing something weird. as a side note, hunter skills require more focus (up to 9) compared to champ skills (up to 5)- plus champs don't have to be standing still to build pips.

Now that I've gotten over my lack-of-shield problems, I must say I am looking forward to these changes, and to relearning some stuff. I drink on you, Orion, and if I spill any beer... I'll even provide you with a clean shirt

I think most of these changes look fantastic. I am just slightly worried by one word. When describing the Champion as a tank, Orion says he can perform this task "adequately". That does not sound like 'main tank' to me...

Big question for me is, can I call myself a main tank after these changes?

Originally Posted by Ronigard

I think most of these changes look fantastic. I am just slightly worried by one word. When describing the Champion as a tank, Orion says he can perform this task "adequately". That does not sound like 'main tank' to me...

Big question for me is, can I call myself a main tank after these changes?

Most likely, yes, just as good as before. You're not meant to be a main tank class, so you're a bit gimped. We always were... so nothing new there. Main tank in 90% of the content, supreme off tank and destroyer... that's what I like best

Thanks a lot for all the replies Orion

I must say at first I was a bit disappointed with what we got in the dev diary. Not that it wasn't all good changes, but that a lot of things that were suggested in the blogs weren't in. Now I see most of them are from the new skills which makes me a happy champ guess it is just the Glory survival skill under 50% morale we didn't get tho it seemed like that one was a bit overpowered anyway. Can't wait to try all of this out

Originally Posted by Orion

68 - Improved Feral Strikes: You make a savage double strike that is very difficult to parry or evade. The first attack has a chance to remove a Corruption and the second, if it hits, will remove a Corruption.

70 - Improved Dire Need: Half of you power is expended. Three times the amount of power lost is transferred to Morale. (Yes the cooldown is now 10 minutes)

Yay, changes they should have been done years ago are our "new/improved" skills.

Originally Posted by Barrynor

Most likely, yes, just as good as before. You're not meant to be a main tank class, so you're a bit gimped. We always were... so nothing new there. Main tank in 90% of the content, supreme off tank and destroyer... that's what I like best

When I read the changes, it seems to me we are going to be less gimped than before, at least :-) Looking forward to main-tanking the current instance clusters without the Sophie's choice of 'healing penalty' vs 'dps'.

Originally Posted by Orion

68 - Improved Feral Strikes: You make a savage double strike that is very difficult to parry or evade. The first attack has a chance to remove a Corruption and the second, if it hits, will remove a Corruption.

one question with this- does it still do 3 hits while dual wielding? and if so, how does the potential removal work there, as in two chances to remove + one guaranteed removal? regardless i'll be happy to be able to remove corruptions consistently for a change (assuming the hit lands of course).

Originally Posted by Enska

Thanks a lot for all the replies Orion

I must say at first I was a bit disappointed with what we got in the dev diary. Not that it wasn't all good changes, but that a lot of things that were suggested in the blogs weren't in. Now I see most of them are from the new skills which makes me a happy champ guess it is just the Glory survival skill under 50% morale we didn't get tho it seemed like that one was a bit overpowered anyway. Can't wait to try all of this out

Oh no, that is there though not called out. It is there.

Falling below 20% health will kick Exalted Combatant and heal the champion for 25% of their max morale. The effect cannot happen for another 90 seconds.

This is my first post in probably at least a year. While I used to be a pretty hardcore player I quit 8 months before F2P and then rejoined as Premium.

Honestly, I'm really excited for RoI. I completely agree with Orion's points that Ardour just played useless and Glory was boring. The only "nerf" in all this I see is the changes in Controlled Burn, but with the new stances it will probably feel less necessary. If things turn out the way Orion has said I think the champ will be far better off; especially if our sustained DPS can actually match the hunters. I think the DPS boost is possible in Fervour from the Merciless Strike and the Continuous Flurry along with Seeking Blades.

Overall, this is all looking pretty good. Thanks for the updates and the dedication Orion. It's appreciated even if it doesn't look like it!

~Angarian

Originally Posted by Orion

Falling below 20% health will kick Exalted Combatant and heal the champion for 25% of their max morale. The effect cannot happen for another 90 seconds.

this, combined with fight on, the new cb, acuity and fighting dirty -> drooling dwarf can't wait, teach me new battle techniques now, gieeeef

Originally Posted by Orion

Oh no, that is there though not called out. It is there.

Falling below 20% health will kick Exalted Combatant and heal the champion for 25% of their max morale. The effect cannot happen for another 90 seconds.

oeh awesome so we do get it all even more anxious to try out this improved champion

Hey guys, Main guardian here, but I have a champion alt.

This is the second champion I have leveled, and I am REALLY worried about the fervor stance changes. Especially there -30% incoming heal being removed. Has anyone ever though of how this will effect lower levels? I can tell you now, the impact will be HUGE to champions. No offence, but while this may change things at higher levels for the better, there are 64 levels previous to change that needs to be accounted for.

While I will whole-heartedly abuse the fact I no longer run around with the debuff, where is the drawback to running in fervor? I am strictly talking low levels, because this is where the concern should lie. If the threat will be decreased, and the incoming modifier removed, you basically have a walking wall of steel in the form of a champion. Even now, I abuse this classes potential, in rounding up 3-4 mobs AT EVEN LEVEL and kill them far faster than they can kill me. Imagine what I will do without a penalty to my morale? Even now, bracing attack heals me significantly enough that I can execute all my AE chains and not lose more than half my health against 3 even level mobs, and up to 5 lower level mobs, or two signatures at 1-2 levels aobve me.

Now, while I said that I will abuse the removal of this penalty, has anyone considered that maybe from level 66-75 that this should be considered an *improved Fervor* or make a legendary trait that removes this heal penalty and decreases aggro?

I realize that most of the beta testing is occuring to factor in how these changes will affect level 66-75 game play, but I ask, is there any play testing occuring for how these changes will affect low levels? Particularly fervor?

Originally Posted by teviko

Hey guys, Main guardian here, but I have a champion alt.

This is the second champion I have leveled, and I am REALLY worried about the fervor stance changes. Especially there -30% incoming heal being removed. Has anyone ever though of how this will effect lower levels? I can tell you now, the impact will be HUGE to champions. No offence, but while this may change things at higher levels for the better, there are 64 levels previous to change that needs to be accounted for.

While I will whole-heartedly abuse the fact I no longer run around with the debuff, where is the drawback to running in fervor? I am strictly talking low levels, because this is where the concern should lie. If the threat will be decreased, and the incoming modifier removed, you basically have a walking wall of steel in the form of a champion. Even now, I abuse this classes potential, in rounding up 3-4 mobs AT EVEN LEVEL and kill them far faster than they can kill me. Imagine what I will do without a penalty to my morale? Even now, bracing attack heals me significantly enough that I can execute all my AE chains and not lose more than half my health against 3 even level mobs, and up to 5 lower level mobs, or two signatures at 1-2 levels aobve me.

Now, while I said that I will abuse the removal of this penalty, has anyone considered that maybe from level 66-75 that this should be considered an *improved Fervor* or make a legendary trait that removes this heal penalty and decreases aggro?

I realize that most of the beta testing is occuring to factor in how these changes will affect level 66-75 game play, but I ask, is there any play testing occuring for how these changes will affect low levels? Particularly fervor?

I don't see your point here. Prior to the healing nerf, all champs went from 0 to 60 with no healing penalty on Fervour, so we basically just return to what we used to have before.

The healing penalty never had any influence on solo play/questing, as the term solo demands that there's no healer around. Bracing Attack currently heals for more when you are IN fervour than it does when you are OUT of fervour.

I don't see the levelling experience change at all and there is also nothing to abuse, once the healing penalty (that never should have been introduced in the first place) is gone.

On anohter note, why would you want to have a drawback for using fervour? a) there already is a drawback to using fervour - you can't block, parry or evade and b) why should champs be penalised for doing their job? Running around stanceless is not a viable option, so fervour is your base stance. Are Guards penalised for using block stance? Are hunters penalised for using strength or precision stance? I don't know about you, but I don't want to be penalised for doing my job and especially not in a way, that also hurts me, when I don't have aggro (that's why the healing penalty was introduced, to prevent fervour tanking; still the penalty hits as hard when you are not tanking).

Originally Posted by skadi

This has been a fundamental problem since he first proposed the changes back in June or whatever. He really likes the idea of messing around with the mechanics, but doesn't have any reason WHY the changes should be made. We asked him that very question over and over in the original thread, and he never came near the question. Unfortunately, I feel like the updates have really, really suffered because of that.

Oh well.

Seriously? The reason isn't obvious to you? You use Ardour as-is? Your frequently tank in glory? If you answered yes to either of the last 2 questions, you're in the minority, and probably doing it wrong anyway. If you answered no to them, then that's your "why?".

Originally Posted by Phoenix303

This is my first post in probably at least a year. While I used to be a pretty hardcore player I quit 8 months before F2P and then rejoined as Premium.

Honestly, I'm really excited for RoI. I completely agree with Orion's points that Ardour just played useless and Glory was boring. The only "nerf" in all this I see is the changes in Controlled Burn, but with the new stances it will probably feel less necessary. If things turn out the way Orion has said I think the champ will be far better off; especially if our sustained DPS can actually match the hunters. I think the DPS boost is possible in Fervour from the Merciless Strike and the Continuous Flurry along with Seeking Blades.

Overall, this is all looking pretty good. Thanks for the updates and the dedication Orion. It's appreciated even if it doesn't look like it!

~Angarian

How can you possibly see the new CB as a nerf?

Originally Posted by teviko

Hey guys, Main guardian here, but I have a champion alt.

This is the second champion I have leveled, and I am REALLY worried about the fervor stance changes. Especially there -30% incoming heal being removed. Has anyone ever though of how this will effect lower levels? I can tell you now, the impact will be HUGE to champions. No offence, but while this may change things at higher levels for the better, there are 64 levels previous to change that needs to be accounted for.

While I will whole-heartedly abuse the fact I no longer run around with the debuff, where is the drawback to running in fervor? I am strictly talking low levels, because this is where the concern should lie. If the threat will be decreased, and the incoming modifier removed, you basically have a walking wall of steel in the form of a champion. Even now, I abuse this classes potential, in rounding up 3-4 mobs AT EVEN LEVEL and kill them far faster than they can kill me. Imagine what I will do without a penalty to my morale? Even now, bracing attack heals me significantly enough that I can execute all my AE chains and not lose more than half my health against 3 even level mobs, and up to 5 lower level mobs, or two signatures at 1-2 levels aobve me.

Now, while I said that I will abuse the removal of this penalty, has anyone considered that maybe from level 66-75 that this should be considered an *improved Fervor* or make a legendary trait that removes this heal penalty and decreases aggro?

I realize that most of the beta testing is occuring to factor in how these changes will affect level 66-75 game play, but I ask, is there any play testing occuring for how these changes will affect low levels? Particularly fervor?

You gave example of how it would effect a solo champ, in which case the healing penalty never mattered. Currently, bracing attack healed more in fervour because of the penalty. They already stated that will not be the case now that the penalty will be gone. So what's the problem?

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I don't see your point here. Prior to the healing nerf, all champs went from 0 to 60 with no healing penalty on Fervour, so we basically just return to what we used to have before.

Ah, did not know this. I came in after the healing nerf had been added.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

The healing penalty never had any influence on solo play/questing, as the term solo demands that there's no healer around. Bracing Attack currently heals for more when you are IN fervour than it does when you are OUT of fervour.

Did not know this either. It heals alot for me and I figured that it would heal for more if the -30% wasn't in place.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I don't see the levelling experience change at all and there is also nothing to abuse, once the healing penalty (that never should have been introduced in the first place) is gone.

I am an extreme addict of my AE abilities. I like to push to see just how many mobs I can take at once. I just figured that once the healing nerf was removed, that I could almost full heal with BA and not ever have to worry about the amount I pulled. Thank you for helping to alleviate my fears.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

On anohter note, why would you want to have a drawback for using fervour? a) there already is a drawback to using fervour - you can't block, parry or evade and b) why should champs be penalised for doing their job? Running around stanceless is not a viable option, so fervour is your base stance. Are Guards penalised for using block stance? Are hunters penalised for using strength or precision stance? I don't know about you, but I don't want to be penalised for doing my job and especially not in a way, that also hurts me, when I don't have aggro (that's why the healing penalty was introduced, to prevent fervour tanking; still the penalty hits as hard when you are not tanking).

The thing I see here, relating mostly to solo play is that Champions do alot of damage and generate alot of aggro, more so than many other classes at low levels. Mainly, we don't have a way of shrugging it off us aside from ardour, or dying. This changes, albeit, at higher levels, so have penalties in place to make the champion *consider* his options before he engages an enemy. On my guardian, I also gleefully cackle as I watch a fervor champ use raging blades and then get walloped before he's even realized what's done and I gracefully pick back up the mobs.

Knowing when/how/where to execute your skills is critical to all DPS classes and all major DPS stances come with a downside, like Strength stance for hunters comes with incresed power costs, AND increased threat gen. OP comes with increased power costs, as well as we lose our entire block chain (guards). Recklessness for Wardens comes with no power regen, no morale regen and reduced B/P/E. You are not being penalized for your *basic* stance, but rather making sure there is something in place than makes you go...."hmmm, do I really want this aggro?"

Alot of the times, Champs don't understand the dangers 6-man instances poses for them, since they are used to being so...*squishy*. THey take on a few mobs, feel invincible and then are shocked to find out that an Elite can nearyl cut of their heads in one shot. This is why penalties are institued for ds classes to show them they have limits, and in solo play, convince them to be level headed in their methodology.

This also why Tanks have the best *defence* stances derived to help them survive the hits. It's also why they wear shields. They specifically designed around taking the hits while everyone else around them deals teh damage. Champs were not set up to be that way. They are basically focused killing machines with a drive and will to continue killing the enemy.

Orion, what about the combat effect only removal legacy? Seems like it will be useless now with the changes to red haze, blocking blades and controlled burn.

Originally Posted by teviko

The thing I see here, relating mostly to solo play is that Champions do alot of damage and generate alot of aggro, more so than many other classes at low levels. Mainly, we don't have a way of shrugging it off us aside from ardour, or dying. This changes, albeit, at higher levels, so have penalties in place to make the champion *consider* his options before he engages an enemy. On my guardian, I also gleefully cackle as I watch a fervor champ use raging blades and then get walloped before he's even realized what's done and I gracefully pick back up the mobs.

Knowing when/how/where to execute your skills is critical to all DPS classes and all major DPS stances come with a downside, like Strength stance for hunters comes with incresed power costs, AND increased threat gen. OP comes with increased power costs, as well as we lose our entire block chain (guards). Recklessness for Wardens comes with no power regen, no morale regen and reduced B/P/E. You are not being penalized for your *basic* stance, but rather making sure there is something in place than makes you go...."hmmm, do I really want this aggro?"

Alot of the times, Champs don't understand the dangers 6-man instances poses for them, since they are used to being so...*squishy*. THey take on a few mobs, feel invincible and then are shocked to find out that an Elite can nearyl cut of their heads in one shot. This is why penalties are institued for ds classes to show them they have limits, and in solo play, convince them to be level headed in their methodology.

This also why Tanks have the best *defence* stances derived to help them survive the hits. It's also why they wear shields. They specifically designed around taking the hits while everyone else around them deals teh damage. Champs were not set up to be that way. They are basically focused killing machines with a drive and will to continue killing the enemy.

Actually a good champ uses ebbing ire after RB ;p,
Also if you as a guard trait OP properly you don't lose your block chain, the trait from force opening creates block events on critical hits.

Originally Posted by Maetho

Actually a good champ uses ebbing ire after RB ;p,
Also if you as a guard trait OP properly you don't lose your block chain, the trait from force opening creates block events on critical hits.

I am actually aware of this. You can have TWO traits that can open the block chains, but you can use one, and only one skill...Catch a breath.

And yes,. a good champ *should* use ebbing ire. Should. Should.

My thought is, if guards and wardens get +5 morale per vit, why don't we? We are supposed to get hit to build aggro, so focusing on morale is important as a champ tank. But with less morale and getting hit more, and maybe harder as we lost our shield, champ tanking may not be extremely viable.

Originally Posted by teviko

While I will whole-heartedly abuse the fact I no longer run around with the debuff, where is the drawback to running in fervor?

None really. Champions have almost always leveled from 1 to 65 while in Fervour mode. Glory sometimes. Ardour almost never. Even with the healing penalty that was added somewhat recently, champions still ran in Fervour all the time. Some exceptions with some players or situations though.

Champion is not a wall of steel either though. Mine died quite a lot at lower levels, more so than all of my classes except lore master. For various reasons too. The lack of parry/evade seems small at first but it is significant over a fight especially when you add in effects of partial parry/evade. Some of it was probably due to thinking that I can take on 3 or 4 enemies just because I have good AoE, which is not nearly as easy as it sounds especially if you don't have top notch armor for your level at all times.

At lower levels threat is a non issue. It's soloing 99% of the time so that you don't get healed anyway. Grouping is very rare, and when you do group at mid levels it's really nice to have a champion that can be healed or not cause as much threat when not tanking, and it's nice to have a champion who can be a tank because there are no wardens/guardians offering to help.

Originally Posted by Orion

Oh no, that is there though not called out. It is there.

Falling below 20% health will kick Exalted Combatant and heal the champion for 25% of their max morale. The effect cannot happen for another 90 seconds.

Does that work in tandem with SD/true heroics? As in... Will the skills morale boons affect the morale gained with exalted combatant?

Originally Posted by jlr

Seriously? The reason isn't obvious to you? You use Ardour as-is? Your frequently tank in glory? If you answered yes to either of the last 2 questions, you're in the minority, and probably doing it wrong anyway. If you answered no to them, then that's your "why?".

Uh... I think your logic might be broken, along with your politeness. People don't use ardor, therefore it must be turned into an AOE stance? I somehow think that doesn't follow... or at least, the reason isn't obvious to me, as you say. I can think of at least three different things that could have been done with ardor, and I can think of an infinite number of different ways that it could have been turned into an AOE stance. And to be brutally honest, I don't see what's been done being any significant advantage over "remove it entirely", and can see at least one huge disadvantage. You know, the obvious one.

As for glory... my kin is a little tank-light, right now, so I've spent quite a bit of time tanking lately. And if you can tank Sari-Surma or Lost Temple t2 in fervor... well, I guess you're a lot better than I am. I must be doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by skadi

Uh... I think your logic might be broken, along with your politeness. People don't use ardor, therefore it must be turned into an AOE stance? I somehow think that doesn't follow... or at least, the reason isn't obvious to me, as you say. I can think of at least three different things that could have been done with ardor, and I can think of an infinite number of different ways that it could have been turned into an AOE stance. And to be brutally honest, I don't see what's been done being any significant advantage over "remove it entirely", and can see at least one huge disadvantage. You know, the obvious one.

As for glory... my kin is a little tank-light, right now, so I've spent quite a bit of time tanking lately. And if you can tank Sari-Surma or Lost Temple t2 in fervor... well, I guess you're a lot better than I am. I must be doing it wrong.

You didn't disagree with what the changes were though, or at least you didn't make that clear. You simply asked why they made the changes, and as you said yourself, the answer is obvious for ardour. They need to at least try to make it usefull, which is what they are doing...trying. Who knows if it will work or not? I'm not saying it will, but I'm not saying it won't either. You can disagree with what they're doing all you want, I don't care, but you made it sound as if you thought there was no reason to change anything at all.

As for your second point, the key word there was frequently. You may be using glory to tank content for your kin right now because you are short on tanks, but I would call that extenuating circumstances. And even if it wasn't, you would be in the minority. Much of the content is fervour tankable, and the content that isn't, is usually tanked by guards or wardens. That's just a fact. Sure there are exceptions, but exceptions don't really matter here.

Sounds very interesting and I'm looking forward to figuring things out again.

One hope I have, however, is that Ferocious Strikes will clearly be the obvious choice for attacking a single target. It is the legendary strike skill after all.

Ferocious Strikes: Ferocious Strikes now deals stepped damage. The first attack deals the lowest and increases the damage dealt on each successive hit.

The [fervour] two-set bonus adds a 40% critical multiplier to the second and third attacks from Brutal Strikes and to the second attack on Savage Strikes.

Without numbers, I'll have to wait and see and hope. If most people do a rotation using brutal strikes, as I think they do now, then that is a flaw. Ferocious strikes should be the clear winner and reward for building maximum fervour, and I sure hope it is with these changes.

Originally Posted by Orion

Oh no, that is there though not called out. It is there.

Falling below 20% health will kick Exalted Combatant and heal the champion for 25% of their max morale. The effect cannot happen for another 90 seconds.

Originally Posted by Orion

Champs will not become the preferred tank, this is true.

I'm sorry, but how did you work that out? The quote above suggests to me that champs will do more damage then a warden/guardian tank and have more survivability at the same time. A buffed champ on 10k morale getting a 2.5k heal every 90 seconds? Passively. Without inc. healing included?

I'm just saying, it's OP. If you don't think so, please explain. If you hadn't noticed yet, there's a thread on the warden forum discussing this and it's growing quickly.

Oh, and does it work in PvMP? That would be "fun".

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

I'm sorry, but how did you work that out? The quote above suggests to me that champs will do more damage then a warden/guardian tank and have more survivability at the same time. A buffed champ on 10k morale getting a 2.5k heal every 90 seconds? Passively. Without inc. healing included?

I'm just saying, it's OP. If you don't think so, please explain. If you hadn't noticed yet, there's a thread on the warden forum discussing this and it's growing quickly.

Oh, and does it work in PvMP? That would be "fun".

So you are suggesting to deliberately keep your Champ tank at less than 20% of his morale just for getting a 2.5k heal every 90 seconds? Good luck with that strat. On a hard hitting mob your champ will be done before the 90 seconds are over. So much for being OP. Think before you post.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

I'm sorry, but how did you work that out? The quote above suggests to me that champs will do more damage then a warden/guardian tank and have more survivability at the same time. A buffed champ on 10k morale getting a 2.5k heal every 90 seconds? Passively. Without inc. healing included?

I'm just saying, it's OP. If you don't think so, please explain. If you hadn't noticed yet, there's a thread on the warden forum discussing this and it's growing quickly.

Oh, and does it work in PvMP? That would be "fun".

I just checked the wrd thread and didn't see any threads about champs, They are properly concerned with their own changes. Nice trolling though.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

So you are suggesting to deliberately keep your Champ tank at less than 20% of his morale just for getting a 2.5k heal every 90 seconds? Good luck with that strat. On a hard hitting mob your champ will be done before the 90 seconds are over. So much for being OP. Think before you post.

No I'm not... so... That pretty much makes your post quite void then? Survivability comes from not dying, not from getting free heals because you deliberately keep yourself below 20 %. In other words, it'll be very hard for a champ to die on stroke one. It'll take continued pressure to take kill one. That's fine. But if this renews every 90 seconds I call it OP.

Originally Posted by Maetho

I just checked the wrd thread and didn't see any threads about champs, They are properly concerned with their own changes. Nice trolling though.

Well it takes one to know one, eh? Second thread on the first page in the warden forum;
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...t..-Quatro-%29

My bad, I should have mentioned that it's not called "champ something else champs blah blah champs omg champs srly champs" - maybe that would have been easier to spot.