I dont play my champ that often so unsure how a lot of these changes will really work but overall it looks like a nice buff to your "average" champ.
1) Fervour healing penalty removed - Awesome!
2) Flurry permanent in fervour - Awesome!
3) Removal of additional threat whilst in fervour - Though only raging blades and ferocious had threat, but whatever, this will help
These three alone mean my champ gets a decent buff come RoI. As champ isn't my main, i used to get annoyed reapplying flurry all the time. As to the other changes proposed:
Glory
So, you've given glory stance a load of critical hit defence and reduced the cooldown of some skills that increase champ survivability. Thats kinda nice I guess. Whether that will provide as much survivability as a heavy shield we'll have to wait and see.
However, generating threat might still be a problem. The main way to generate threat will remain through doing damaging skills. Now that we're dual-wielding and the -15% damage buff has been removed from glory, our DPS should be ok but im not convined it'll be enough to maintain aggro over other classes. I would hope it would, as essentially in a fervour champ versus glory champ situation, the fervour champ is dealing 20% more dps whilst glory champ generates 60% more threat. Will wait and see I guess. Guardians and Wardens will still remain better tanks though.
Ardour:
Still seems like a waste of a stance. Lower power costs and threat is all well and good, but if fervour stance gives +20% damage then fervour is still superior to ardour in every situation.
Fervour:
As mentioned above, removal of healing penalty, permanent flurry and reduced threat is all great, it'll make being an average champ even easier, and I'm definitely just an average champ :P. However, for those who are already good at their class, keeping up flurry isnt difficult and if you are with a good tank then threat/healing isn't an issue.
But, the changes you've made to CBR dont seem right. I guess you've basically just moved this skill from being a primarily solo ability where healing doesn't matter and you can regen between fights, to a group play ability where with a bit of healing the champ can really pull out some big DPS. Kind of like an alternate version of Fight On!
Other Changes:
2H fervour cost reduction makes me nervous. At the moment, 2h versus DW is pretty evenly balanced on overall DPS. However, if you reduce the fervour cost to make it identical to DW then 2h champ can spam brutal strikes more often than currently and thus their DPS will improve whilst DW champs will be left as they are. I guess if your intention is to make champs use 2handers then thats fine, but as a strictly DW champ who only rolled a champ in order to dual-wield axes, that'll be the end of the class for me.
Controlled burn change I actually like. Previously, I'd pop controlled burn in order to remove healing penalty and get perma-flurry. Now, those things are removed by default! So, changing controlled burn from a defensive/survivability buff into a short term DPS buff is good news. With the CB trait, I can have it active for 1m15s out of every 5minutes and get (hopefully) a nice DPS increase during this time, perfect for fighting elites, 1v1s in the moors or burning down a nasty add in an instance. Combine with CBR and Fight On for some insane champ damage!
Formerly Jennifern, Rank 7 Captain and Raid Leader of Divine Retribution on Snowbourn
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Currently awaiting the next best thing!
I'm loving the new look changes to Champs, and cannot wait for Isengard to come out so that I can try it out for myself. So much to comment on, but I guess I'll just mention a few of the things that stood out to me.
Controlled Burn
A lot of people don't seem to like the new Controlled Burn Changes, but for me this seems like a huge buff to the skill. Although I currently use a lot in raids to get the perma flurry and exchange of blows buff, I don't really use it whenever it's off cooldown soloing or in Etts. With the reduced CD and the fact that it is applied ontop of whatever stance you're in I can imagine me using this every 5 mins. To me it feels like the Champs version of Burn Hot.
The old CB was 15% damage, -20% attack duration, exchange of blows and the avoidances
If traiting Flurry of Blows and in Fervour, you'll get the -20% attack duration anyway (the best thing about CB), and you'll get an increase in damage and a decrease in attack duration, a fervour pip every 5 seconds, and if traited can last 1 mins 15 seconds. Awesome!
Seeking Blades
Orion stated in one of his blogs that seeking blades will be upgraded between 66 and 75 to auto crit on remorseless.
Correct. I'm loving the sound of this skill, and on a 2 min cooldown it seems just about right. Being a 2-handed Champ I tent to forget about this skill because of the Brutal + Clobber combo. This and the addiation changes to Merciful, it should encourage us Champs to cycle all our skills.
Sprint
Firstly, I'm glad that they kept the old Sprint, very useful in Etts.
Athletic: The cooldown of your sprint skill is lowered by 120 seconds and your Wild Attack will now enable you to stun your enemy on a successful hit for the 10 seconds after activating Sprint. The ability to stun is removed upon a successful strike, but the increased movement speed remains.
I'm very glad that the sprint isn't removed even when the mobs is stunned. As I would have ended up not traiting Athletic just so that I would keep my perma sprint.
Tanking
Without playing the new Champ myself, I cannot comment on what it's actually like to tank with, but from the sounds of it Champions will need to fit a lot more non damaging skills into their rotation to be able to survive the bosses attacks. For example, Sudden Defence, Hedge, Adamant/Invincibe, Brace Attack, Second Wind, Rising Ire, Challenge, will all need to be part of our rotation when tanking, that's before we even start on trying to do any damage on the boss. Champ tanking sounds like lots of micro management, which for me seems awesome addition to the class.
Gaurdian's and Warden's will always be first choice when picking tanks for a raid situation, and from my experince most Champions would rather stay DPS than be a tank.
However, if you reduce the fervour cost to make it identical to DW then 2h champ can spam brutal strikes more often than currently and thus their DPS will improve whilst DW champs will be left as they are.
I can't remember exactly if the increase fervour cost is on all skills, I'll check later, but in the example you gave about Brutal Strike, at the moment the cost of using Brutal is the same for a two-hander as it is for Dual-Wield. You just require 1 more fevour pip to activate the skill witha two-hander. For example, Burtal Strike - Requires 4 Fevour, comsumes 3 Fervour.
I can't see it making a huge difference to two-hander damage as we'll still have the same fervour consumed on use, the only difference I can possibly see is that our rotations may slightly change, as a we will be able to use it sooner.
This sounds great, specially the tanking changes. Gonna love to be able to tank without shield, and also, tank as efficiently as the other tanking classes.
A question though - will Champions be compensated by the loss of often useful stats on shields (like damage absorb)?
A question though. Shield often had very nice tanking effects (like damage absorption) on them. Will we be compensated for that, with e.g. 2H tanking weapons with similar stats?
Hold on, did I hear that right? Somewhere between 66 and 75, champs will get an enhancement that lets you crit 100% of the time with relentless every 2 minutes?
Personally I think Ardour should be made similar to a hunters 'Precision Stance'. In other words it doesn't directly increase the damage of the champion, but allows the champion to be more accurate. For example -1500 B/P/E and a reduced missed chance. Plus say 1 fervour every 8 seconds or something.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
Cant wait until i can use Heroics while in Ardour, in a raid vs. raid fight it seems sorta epic! Something like "Heroics->Improved Rend -> Deathstorm -> Raging Blades -> Bladestorm -> Swift Strike -> Blade Wall" Repeat for extra awesomness!
Hold on, did I hear that right? Somewhere between 66 and 75, champs will get an enhancement that lets you crit 100% of the time with relentless every 2 minutes?
was meant to be. would be nice if we could possibly get the list of new skills sometime? we have two possibles (seeking blades + feral strikes upgrades) but no real specifics on what's happening.
Fervour:
Cannot parry or Evade. So it can block? Nice.
RedHaze: Pip every 15 sec for 45sec. 5sec cooldown? so i can just spam it and get a free pip every 5 sec? Nice.
Flurry of Blows: Activated while im in Ferv? Even out of Combat? And stays there? Very nice!
Athletic: Stun on Wild Attack for the first 10sec?? Oh VERY nice! (whats that? oh thats just creep crying)
Question:
Whats the cooldown on Merc Strike? And whats the damage per pip will be?
Seeking Blade looks good. Any chance we can have a leg to lower the cooldown?
Ferocious Strike. How "steep" is the damage increase will be?
Whats the new sprint going to be? 200% speed like wargs? 15sec duration? Any details at all for Sprint?
Fervour:
Cannot parry or Evade. So it can block? Nice.
Block with what? The shields we no longer have?
Yeah, so uhm, I'll have to see where this leaves my Dwarven Champion, who rather enjoyed dodging behind his shield when tanking, who never had any trouble keeping the Aggro, who was rather handy in controlling said aggro in a FS with Rising and Ebbing Ire even if not MT, and who now wanders off to the bar in Thorins Hall to grab a pint... to mourn his precious shield-collection.
Of course, my Guardian Alt, who DOES have a shield, will get more lovin now!
Looks like they took all the finesse and flexibility out of the class. Ires are dead (unless they reneged on the "only affects your own threat levels" thing), moving fluidly between turtling and DDing is dead, managing defeat responses is dead... The new CBR looks to have some potential on paper, but I'd bet it's been relegated to a "pop it for BNS screenshots only" kind of role in practice.
I suppose all the knuckledragging buttonmashers will enjoy it, though. Should make the class as easy and straightforward as the hunter.
I'm a pretty placid fellow and I'm not prone to kicking off or losing my rag. But for me this takes the cake and I felt compelled to speak up!
Forget the facts and figures of the new traits/skills etc and all their mechanics. Just forget it all. I'm focusing only on basics here.
With Isengard, the Champion is undergoing some significant changes that are meant to set them further apart from the other martial frontline classes.
By 'frontline martial class' do you mean melee range? If so, what classes, Warden, Guardian? Champs were far enough apart to have their own niche, but what has been done here is bring them closer, not further apart from the other 'martial classes'. I don't just speak as my Guardian (my main more or less), I also play a 65 Champ - and I play him to damage, I play him to DPS and Aoe. I do NOT want to damn well TANK on my champ, anymore than I want to damn well heal on my Hunter. Please for the sake of Durin's Beard stop damn well blurring the class boundaries!!
Once in a blue-moon my Champ (and most people's I assume) might be called upon to don a shield and go play off-tank. This is fine, this is a situational requirement, and I would be more than happy to have Glory reworked, or some other new mechanic to enhance off-tanking. But main tanking??! get serious! We have Guardians, we have Wardens as well, which is more than enough. You are stepping on other's class's toes here, and breaking them.
...Sadly, the Champion lacked many of the Guardian’s utility skills and was a lesser tank because of this.
Not sadly, happily and rightly so! Because mate, Champs are not, never have been, never should be a dedicated tanking class.
By the same token here you could also chirp up and say 'The Guardian lacks many of the Champion's Aoe and DPS skills and is a lesser DPS class because of this'. ...Uhm yes, because a Guard isnt a DPS class, even though it can support DPS with some decent output if traited correctly, just as a Champ can pay a decent off-tank role if traited correctly.
Through a combination of skill plays the Champion will be able to satisfy the tanking role adequately in any group or raid scenario.
Can someone help calm me down here? Help! Feed me a valium or something!! The above sentence just buries the knife even deeper into my Guardian's back. Could the day soon arrrive where a Champion is chosen as a raid's main tank ahead of a Guardian or Warden? If that happens, with all due respect to the Dev, head's have to roll.
I'm very anxious to hear feedback now about how these changes have responded in testing. But tbh I've very discouraged by the clear message in this dev diary. Maybe I'm completely out of the loop here, and these changes are really what the majority of Champs want. If so, I'll shut up.
Burgs are going to have auto crits all over now that they get one out of stealth without aim.
Why do people continue to do this? Comparing your skills and abilities to another class and using that as a basis for change is just plain stupid. That's the whole point of having 9 different classes, so that they are not all the same. Speaking of which, can my LM have a force taunt like Guards, Champs, and Captains do? It would be really useful to pull aggro off of my pet sometimes. Thanks!
75 LM(main), 75 Burg, 67 Cpt, 74 Hunt, 73 Grd, 65 RK, 60 Champ
SMK - Jeweller, Woodworker, Tailor, Scholar, Cook; SM - Metalsmith, Farmer, Weaponsmith
95% of all posts can be answered with the following:
"Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Whatever, dude."
After skimming through all of the pages, why do so many people complain about "having to relearn their class", "they've broken the class" or "they've changed the champion's playstyle"? As I see it, the majority of the champs out there play the champ as a DPS class and stay in fervour for like 95% of their time. The playstyle of fervour champs has not really been touched at all. The RoI fervour champion will pretty much be the pre-RoI fervour champion with some tweaks (perma-flurry, anyone? getting power without defeat events? no healing penalty?). I fail to see a single hint that the playstyle of fervour champs was hammered in any way. And everyone who plays a Champion to be a shield tank most of the time - I guess you just rolled the wrong class in the first place.
Why do people continue to do this? Comparing your skills and abilities to another class and using that as a basis for change is just plain stupid. That's the whole point of having 9 different classes, so that they are not all the same. Speaking of which, can my LM have a force taunt like Guards, Champs, and Captains do? It would be really useful to pull aggro off of my pet sometimes. Thanks!
ummm....exactly... we should have 9 DISTINCT classes....Champs are primarily meant to be DPS, Burgs are suppose to be utility.... hence the TONS of tricks burglars have.
Perhaps I ask because now a burglar can open with a surprise strike that auto-crits, and two seconds later pop aim and Flashing blades for up to 4-5k damage to OPEN a fight.... not bad for a UTILITY CLASS!. A good burglar can already come close to matching a champ in DPS (obviously not AOE) with positional damage. With the additional offensive rating they are getting with the stat changes and additional boost with auto crit from stealth, Burglars are very much becoming a dps class.
If the DPS of a UTILITY class goes up.. then do you think it too much to ask that I request a skill that increases the DPS of a DPS class?
I think I like most of the changes - ignoring my natural human aversion to change, and also ignoring the question of "why are we revamping classes/combat systems/stats every expansion?" I think I'll be happy with the proposed changes.
Quick hits:
If it's true that we'll be getting a guaranteed corruption removal, that's awesome.
If it's true that we'll be getting a skill to auto-crit on Remorseless, that's even more awesome.
I'm not a huge fan of losing my heavy shield, but oh well - I'll just figure out how to adjust and enjoy main-tanking raids when needed without a shield.
I actually like the CBR change, although it may depend on how bad the bleed is. I almost never solo in the Moors, so I couldn't care less about losing CBR for soloing in the Moors. In fact, I don't care one whit how this change might affect the PvP Champ - it seems like a good change for the PvE Champ, as I think we'll be able to use CBR more often in groups now. Making skills useful for PvE and group play should be the primary concern, and I'm glad that Orion seems to agree.
The Ires change is fine - if I can't remember which stance I need to be in for which Ire, I probably shouldn't be allowed to be in a group in the first place. :P
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Just one question. Will Champs do comparable or better DPS than Wardens while tanking in Glory? I only ask because if they do better DPS, you can kiss Warden tanks goodbye.
I like the better delineation of the stances, although my Champ has never made it to endgame play so I never knew what things were like before.
I really look forward to trying out the fresh champ in RoI. Seeing how the champ changes evolved since the initial ideas back in May and what they are planning to implement now, I'm also pleased, and calmed. Lots of the feedback of the champ community was clearly taken into account.
I am still concerned about what will happen to merciful strike, fighting dirty and red haze, which were 3 skills that made the champ's gameplay more interesting because of how we could use them in between our regular dps skill sequences to boost our performance, but in their new versions they will probably still do this, only in other ways, and it looks like we will get even more skills that reward us with increased performance or survivability if we use them in our sequences - so the champ gameplay is looking to become more interesting - not dumbed down as some people seem to fear.
For the rest, I would just be repeating people who already argumented in favour of the changes.
Some things I'm missing:
- exchange of blows: at least in glory, and when traited; this should apply to all damage types. As it is, it is stuck in the SoA days where shadow and fire damage ruled. More importantly though, I would really like to see the damage reflection removed from exchange of blows while in glory. Sometimes while tanking, we can't be hitting the mob, eg. on one raid night we had a champ tank adds in OD disease, and glorious exchange killed adds a couple of times, failing us hardmode several times
- (asked by others) what will be the requirement to use 'fighting dirty'?
- ebbing ire : will this be usable across the raid now? Hundreds of times this skill was severally limited in its effectiveness because it's restricted to the fellowship - champions are generally not put in the tank group.
- loss of heavy shield: the way we will have to ensure we use the several skills at our disposal to stay alive and keep aggro, look very interesting and challenging, enriching the champ (whereas before, for tanking, most of the time, we just changed stance - or not at all - and continued to do what we always do). We get more crit defence in glory, and when traiting deeper in glory line, but I still miss some more definate compensation for the loss of what we get from heavy shields. Some boost to parry to offset the loss of blocking would be nice.
Edit: I'm also concerned about what is happening to cbr, I liked it the way it was, and used it. I love the change to controlled burn.
- exchange of blows: at least in glory, and when traited; this should apply to all damage types. As it is, it is stuck in the SoA days where shadow and fire damage ruled. More importantly though, I would really like to see the damage reflection removed from exchange of blows while in glory. Sometimes while tanking, we can't be hitting the mob, eg. on one raid night we had a champ tank adds in OD disease, and glorious exchange killed adds a couple of times, failing us hardmode several times
Agreed on the request for additional damage types for Exchange of Blows (also, please add all damage types to Endurance of Stone for dwarfs, thank you).
As for the reflect, the reflect damage does help a bit with aggro (every little bit of damage counts), so I'd prefer to see it stay. I know what you're talking about with the reflect potentially killing adds in the Disease Wing, but just have your group adjust accordingly - stop DPSing the adds a bit earlier than you normally would, problem solved.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Overall like what I see. I can live with the Controlled burn change. Ardour and glory changes will be interesting.
Questions
1. Why can't seeking blades be an auto crit like aim for relentless attack? Burgs are going to have auto crits all over now that they get one out of stealth without aim.
2. Can we get the list of skills for 66-75 please?
3. CONCERN: I am not sure I like the change to Continuous Blood Rage. I liked using CBR a lot in situations when the -90% healing did not make a difference as I was not relying on a healer. I used it a lot soloing since I am not using a healer. CBR was also very useful in instances when I could avoid aggro and aoe hits. If I was not getting hit, the -90% healing did not matter. With this change CBR will be greatly affected in both those situations. CBR will not be useful soloing at all with no healer around, and if I use CBR in an instance, even if I am not getting hit the increase of the bleed will make a healer focus heal me regardless if I avoid getting hit.
This really hurts solo CBR champ in the moors.
Can we at least get it so the bleed does not hurt us out of combat?
I'd like to see a list as well. and I also agree on that it hurts the solo CBR champ in EM... I don't mind it but I don't want to keep eating food and have dp perks just to not die while having CBR on...
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Re: Rise of Isengard: Champion Dev Diary Feedback
Originally Posted by Reillan
grrrrrrrrrrrr
I *liked* being useful in a fellowship as a way to maintain aggro...
Fighting dirty never required a defeat response. Instead, it required a target to be under 25% health (50% health if traited). Do you mean that you removed the health-gating?
Yes, health gating...don't know how the other got in there. Health gate = gone.
Orion
Senior Designer
Game Systems
Looking to the Future.
Dire Need did not have its cooldown reduced to 5 minutes, didn't it?
See traits.
Orion,
The Glory trait section mentions that the cooldown is "lowered by 5 minutes" not to 5 minutes. As written is appears that traited, Dire Need's cooldown will be 25 minutes instead of 30 (the current is 30 minutes right? I'm not able to check atm). Is that correct
With the change to defeat events, are minis going to get a change to our Song of Aid and Call to Greatness.
I would recommend increase melee damage, but I am open to other ideas. I recommend this b/c it makes champs in dps mode fulfill their role better, and it makes champs who are tanking fulfill their role better. Crit chance/magnitude helps one or the other not so much both.
-or-
Give more fervor pips
Just seems like a waste not to change two of our buffs if you are going to change defeat events so drastically for champs.
Please don't leave these skills Champ worthless.
Thanks for your consideration.
Disclaimer: I don't play a champ, so I am not sure what the changes will do in totality, but I do know that giving defeat events to champs is one of my favorite ways to initiate boss/hard pulls. If I am horribly misunderstanding sorry in advance.
I like the idea of being able to use Raging Blades without the mini refusing to heal me ever again. Shing-Shing!
I don't like the change to the Ire skills. Rising off of healers or hunters and Ebbing onto the tank has long been an important part of raid-wide agro management.
I don't like the changes to the "Legendary Skill" Controlled Burn. It no longer sounds legendary and shouldn't cost a legendary trait slot.
The rest of the changes range from "Meh" to "Whatever".
"For them to perceive the advantage of defeating the enemy, they must also have their rewards." ~Sun Tzu
Will champions get new skills (or better one, for example sth like improved brutal strikes) between lvl 65 and 75? Or are this the whole patchnotes for champs? I'm confused^^
Wuzy
Sohn von Hellcreep und Vater von Wuscheli "Aiming for heaven though serving in hell
Victory is ours their forces will fall"
I did not see an explanation for a WHY in the diary? As in, "why the need to change the class behavior?" It was just a "this is what we did".
Also, I cringe anytime I see Orion messing with basic core mechanics. Years of history witnessing his work first-hand has proven that it never goes well for my play style.
The changes are great ... but it does make me cringe every time I see a post from a player like you. This isn't Burger King, you cannot always have it your way.
Mostly I think because Ardour was nearly useless for most champions and Glory was really hard to tank with. Now there are really three very viable trait sets. I know there are many players who want one and only one build but having variety is very nice I think. More than most classes I think Champions really were starting to look like cookie-cutter copies of each other.
What I want to see is whether Ardour becomes the standard fellowship stance or not because of the AoE benefits?
I doubt Ardour will replace Fervour in anything other than a switch over to down massive pulls ... fervour being switched back on once they thin. I see ardour as a great utility stance to down some little guys before switching into full power DPS mode. IE: Fervour.
Last edited by warriorpoetex; Aug 24 2011 at 07:42 PM.
I'd also like to see improved rend increased in magnitude to be more inline with other armour reductions. It doesnt make sense to me that reavers get something like 2000 reduction and champs only get 400ish.
Doubt it will happen. it actually used to be like 1500 or something, but they changed it because they felt like it was stepping on the toes of burgs/lm's. I would love it if they changed it back though.
Originally Posted by MajUntagent
2H fervour cost reduction makes me nervous. At the moment, 2h versus DW is pretty evenly balanced on overall DPS. However, if you reduce the fervour cost to make it identical to DW then 2h champ can spam brutal strikes more often than currently and thus their DPS will improve whilst DW champs will be left as they are. I guess if your intention is to make champs use 2handers then thats fine, but as a strictly DW champ who only rolled a champ in order to dual-wield axes, that'll be the end of the class for me.
They wont be able to spam brutal even more than they already do, because, believe it or not, the CD of brutal is usually the thing limiting us from using it more, not the pip requirement.
Originally Posted by Gwyndor
No, sorry, hate this in regards to champ tanking.
blah blah blah
sorry for rant.
Look, we champs don't want your job of main tanking and I highly doubt that they would make it so that we can fill the role as well as guards and wardens. We want to dps, and occasionally help others out by tanking things in a pinch. We simply want to be able to do that better when we have to. Sure, we can currently hold aggro on anything we want if we want to, but we're not very survivable when we do so. We are a perfectly fine off tank as is imo, but for those times when your guard/warden doesnt show up for your raid or whatever, we would like to be able to main tank well enough to have a chance to continue without having to pick up a pug main tank. Sure, if we tank blue and throw on a shield we can handle most anything in a good group, but the play style changes from our normal routine drastically...the pace of combat plummets, and it's just not fun. I'd rather just hop on my guard. In short, I don't think they are making us BETTER tanks, just a different kind of tank.
Originally Posted by Thanatos88
With the change to defeat events, are minis going to get a change to our Song of Aid and Call to Greatness.
I would recommend increase melee damage, but I am open to other ideas. I recommend this b/c it makes champs in dps mode fulfill their role better, and it makes champs who are tanking fulfill their role better. Crit chance/magnitude helps one or the other not so much both.
-or-
Give more fervor pips
Just seems like a waste not to change two of our buffs if you are going to change defeat events so drastically for champs.
Please don't leave these skills Champ worthless.
Thanks for your consideration.
Disclaimer: I don't play a champ, so I am not sure what the changes will do in totality, but I do know that giving defeat events to champs is one of my favorite ways to initiate boss/hard pulls. If I am horribly misunderstanding sorry in advance.
You bring up a good point actually. As far as I know Song of Aid/Call to Greatness only opens our defeat responses. If we are left with only 1 of these, that's kind of useless. I'd be interested to know if the developers have discussed this.
Originally Posted by Yosoff
I like the idea of being able to use Raging Blades without the mini refusing to heal me ever again. Shing-Shing!
I don't like the change to the Ire skills. Rising off of healers or hunters and Ebbing onto the tank has long been an important part of raid-wide agro management.
I don't like the changes to the "Legendary Skill" Controlled Burn. It no longer sounds legendary and shouldn't cost a legendary trait slot.
The rest of the changes range from "Meh" to "Whatever".
First of all, if your healer refuses to heal you for using Raging Blades, they're a noob. They should love the sound of shing shing as much as us, because if they're hearing it, they aren't getting hit/interrupted. Shut up and heal, mini's xD
Second, I'll say it again, other than when you're tanking, rising ire isn't necessary. Unless they did in fact change the way ebbing ire works, it's all you need.
Also, new CB is 10000000 times better than old one.
If I have to le-learn the class from the start I will rather go le-learn something completely new in another game. Preferably p2p.
Thank you Orion for helping me make my mind. Its been fun most of the time.
- Don't let the login screen kick you on the way out ...
Originally Posted by roufneck
So many changes. Can't wait to play the class and see how it works out.
I'm still missing 1 thing though: unlocking hobbit champions.
- I think Hobbits as Champions is about as Lore likely as an Elf Burglar.
Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse
I'd rather drop the avoidance penalty on fervour than the incoming healing debuff. This would make champions much more pvp viable while still discouraging fervour tanking in pve.
Better yet, remove the penalties completely.
A Champ in Fervour without the Avoidance penalties would be a god on the battle field. The healing MUST remain gone for it unfairly hits Champs in such areas as potions and skirmishes (ie: soldier healing).
Originally Posted by Gh0s7_Div1sion
Hmmm. The changes aren't bad but compared to the burglar...? I think burgs will be prefered because of the changes of counter defence.
I think champ is a DD, every1 who likes tanking should prefer guard. DMG, Solo play and PvP pushes would be more usefull than a nice tank or aoe stance.
The idea of the defence after a critical hit with brutal strikes was great, why got it changed? Withoud CB champ has no opportunity to stay alive longer without losing a lot of dmg.
And skills between 65 and 75? Nothing? Really?^^
I think champ will be a class who can tank, aoe and DMG... but nothing really good.
Eh no ... Champ will be top of list for DPS while in Fervour short of quick burst fights where an RK or Hunter's burst DPS may outshine. AoE, Champs will always be better short of the AoE DPS in Glory. Tanking, is now viable for Champs ... while no doubt we will require heavier healing than the absorption guardian or evasion Warden; Champs will probably be threat generating madmen while trait Martial. Better bring your best healers for him tho heh ...
Originally Posted by Gwyndor
No, sorry, hate this in regards to champ tanking.
We have Guardians, we have Wardens as well, which is more than enough. You are stepping on other's class's toes here, and breaking them.
Not sadly, happily and rightly so! Because mate, Champs are not, never have been, never should be a dedicated tanking class.
By the same token here you could also chirp up and say 'The Guardian lacks many of the Champion's Aoe and DPS skills and is a lesser DPS class because of this'. ...Uhm yes, because a Guard isnt a DPS class, even though it can support DPS with some decent output if traited correctly, just as a Champ can pay a decent off-tank role if traited correctly.
Champs will not replace Guardians or Wardens ... there is no need to freak out. How many Champs WILL trait for tank over DPS? Not many, and those that do may so within their own social circles to get some content done if there isn't a tank existing in it. Jsut focus on your skills and the class you love ... if you are a great player and have a good rep and friends ... why would they forsake you for a Champ? They won't ... it isn't the Devs that cause class role bleeding, it is the players complaining about this and that. Your tanking role isn't going anywhere ...
Originally Posted by Orion
Yes, health gating...don't know how the other got in there. Health gate = gone.
I did not see an explanation for a WHY in the diary? As in, "why the need to change the class behavior?" It was just a "this is what we did".
Also, I cringe anytime I see Orion messing with basic core mechanics. Years of history witnessing his work first-hand has proven that it never goes well for my play style.
This has been a fundamental problem since he first proposed the changes back in June or whatever. He really likes the idea of messing around with the mechanics, but doesn't have any reason WHY the changes should be made. We asked him that very question over and over in the original thread, and he never came near the question. Unfortunately, I feel like the updates have really, really suffered because of that.
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Re: Rise of Isengard: Champion Dev Diary Feedback
Originally Posted by deeman25845601
So... what about the 66+ skills?
Originally Posted by Eightleggedphreak
This. The only one we were really told about is the upgrade to seeking blades.
Originally Posted by Once_of_Bree
Yes where are the list of the new skills?
Originally Posted by CmdrMagic
1. Why can't seeking blades be an auto crit like aim for relentless attack? Burgs are going to have auto crits all over now that they get one out of stealth without aim.
2. Can we get the list of skills for 66-75 please?
Originally Posted by jlr
What about 66-75 skills? I assume one will still be improved seeking blades, guaranteed crit.
Originally Posted by Gh0s7_Div1sion
Will champions get new skills (or better one, for example sth like improved brutal strikes) between lvl 65 and 75? Or are this the whole patchnotes for champs? I'm confused^^
Okay, I get it, I should have included these in my diary. I had hoped that you would learn about them by playing, but apparently you are impatient. ;-)
66 - Improved Seeking Blade: Your next Relentless or Remorseless strike will critically strike if used within 10 seconds. If used, your chance to critically strike with Relentless of Remorseless strikes is increases for 10 seconds.
68 - Improved Feral Strikes: You make a savage double strike that is very difficult to parry or evade. The first attack has a chance to remove a Corruption and the second, if it hits, will remove a Corruption.
70 - Improved Dire Need: Half of you power is expended. Three times the amount of power lost is transferred to Morale. (Yes the cooldown is now 10 minutes)
72 - Improved Hedge: All the benefits of Hedge with bonus Crit Defence
74 - Enhanced Battle Acuity: Increases the damage bonus granted by Battle Acuity
Originally Posted by apb8808
"In testing, it appears that the Fervour stance has reclaimed the title of top dog for sustained DPS. Of course, being in the mix is a dangerous endeavour."
I'm assuming this was in comparison to other DPS classes, and not comparing between champion stances?
Yes, this is tested against other DPS classes. It's close between Hunters and Champs.
Originally Posted by JasonEvan
so really grd's, cappies, and warden's don't have to worry about not finding a spot, but RK's and Hunters do? If fervour isn't generating tons of threat, but the damage is still there, then why go with another dps class at all? i am confused.
It will continue to generate threat but the bonus threat that skills used to generate will no longer generate bonus threat while in fervour.
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Re: Rise of Isengard: Champion Dev Diary Feedback
Originally Posted by OptimShi
I did not see an explanation for a WHY in the diary? As in, "why the need to change the class behavior?" It was just a "this is what we did"..
The why has be discussed several times in previous blogs and across the many forum posts that I put up. Again, the why is something that not everyone will always agree with or see as a legitimate reason to them. I cannot force opinions, I can only offer the reasons behind my thoughts and provide you with the whys that I came up with. They may not suffice for you and I cannot make them suffice for you.
That said:
Ardour was an orphaned stance. It had no clear purpose and really needed help.
Glory used conventions that were not in-line with Champion game play and I wanted to make the tanking feel more like playing a champ and less like playing a dumbed down guardian.
To do this, I needed to take a broader approach at the class and tweak some skills to conform to functionality that would seamlessly move between stances without the need for too much alteration of the skills between stances. Some skills still went through that process (Ires) and others were simply activated as part of a stance (Red Haze in Ardour, Fervent Flurry in Fervour, Exchange of Blows in Glory).
The reasons were to make the trait lines unique and similar. Unique in their effects and similar in their game play. I feel confident that this has happened. Only you can judge these changes, once you get your hands on them. Ultimately, the champ game play style is unchanged. The big difference is the lack of defeat response effects.
Ardour is a clearer AoE stance.
Fervour is a clearer single target stance (AoE still viable).
Glory is a tanking stance.
Each stance is now unique using the same style of game play between the stances and the changes will provide choice for the champion player; that was, is, and has always been the reason for these changes.
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