Thread: Rise of Isengard: Champion Dev Diary Feedback

With Isengard, the Champion is undergoing some significant changes that are meant to set them further apart from the other martial frontline classes. Read more about these changes in the latest Developer Diary from Allan ‘Orion’ Maki and post your comments here!

best change Raging Blade: Raging Blade no longer generates high threat in all stances. Instead the stance influences what the skill does. In Ardour, Raging Blade has an increased chance to critically hit. In Fervour, the skill increases the critical magnitude. In Glory, the skill generates high threat.

No mention of the exalted combatant state glory is supposed to place you in, or the proposed 20s CD on bracing attack?

Also, ferocious strikes/fight on!
?

I am really looking forward to the changes to the style in which champs tank. I have never really felt like my champ did anything at level cap that my guard couldn't do better. With these changes I hope to find my champ can do some of those things differently.

Keep up the great work Orion!

RIP Controlled Burn

RIP Pre-RoI Champion

Rising Ire will no longer be a trained skill; instead, Ebbing Ire while in Glory stance will become Rising Ire.

grrrrrrrrrrrr

I *liked* being useful in a fellowship as a way to maintain aggro...

The alteration to the skill removes the need for a defeat response.

Fighting dirty never required a defeat response. Instead, it required a target to be under 25% health (50% health if traited). Do you mean that you removed the health-gating?

Let's see if I get all differences from the "Blog-and-Feedback" phase:

Red Haze will not be a defeat response skill after all.

Ardour still has Parry and Evade penalty.

Dire Need did not have its cooldown reduced to 5 minutes, didn't it?

Sprint hadn't been changed, from what I can see. Maybe I missed it?

The rest of it looks much like it did in the Blogs, with Legacies adjustments noted. Looks like I'm going to have to re-learn my class after all.

So... what about the 66+ skills?

I did not see an explanation for a WHY in the diary? As in, "why the need to change the class behavior?" It was just a "this is what we did".

Also, I cringe anytime I see Orion messing with basic core mechanics. Years of history witnessing his work first-hand has proven that it never goes well for my play style.

Originally Posted by Thorandril

No mention of the exalted combatant state glory is supposed to place you in, or the proposed 20s CD on bracing attack?

Also, ferocious strikes/fight on!
?

To help the Glory Champion along Glory will continue to do the following: increase critical defense and power regeneration and also keep fervour generation at a modest level. Enhancements include: a reduction in the cooldown for Adamant/Invincible, Hedge and Bracing Attack.

I like the principle of distinguishing the three trait lines and I like that the model for tanking as a champ is to get wailed on. I'm thinking they're gonna feel like DDO barbarians in that way... well except barbs are somewhat about evasion...

I'm pretty noob at champ though (is that redundant? haw!) so I can't really comment on the nuts and bolts of what's going on here.

I'm still miffed that my Agility based Champ is completely destroyed by the stupid stat changes. For all the coolness of this revamp, it does put the official stamp on "Champs do not evade!"

"In testing, it appears that the Fervour stance has reclaimed the title of top dog for sustained DPS. Of course, being in the mix is a dangerous endeavour."

I'm assuming this was in comparison to other DPS classes, and not comparing between champion stances?

Originally Posted by Netron

To help the Glory Champion along Glory will continue to do the following: increase critical defense and power regeneration and also keep fervour generation at a modest level. Enhancements include: a reduction in the cooldown for Adamant/Invincible, Hedge and Bracing Attack.

Ah thanks, I skimmed it pretty quick.
Still curious about changes to FO/ferocious.

And the DoT for CBR seriously needs to be in combat only.

Originally Posted by Reillan

Fighting dirty never required a defeat response. Instead, it required a target to be under 25% health (50% health if traited). Do you mean that you removed the health-gating?

This confused me as well. Eager to see if the health gate is removed.

Interesting change to Merciful Strike. In the 2.5 years I've played my champ that is one skill I still haven't completed the class deed for . I really like the idea of fervour controlling greater damage output based on your pips.

Originally Posted by deeman25845601

So... what about the 66+ skills?

This. The only one we were really told about is the upgrade to seeking blades.

Yes where are the list of the new skills?

Given how dramatically you are changing the champ classes you could have at least given us something uncontroversial and clear cut to think about.

Given the length of the diary, the amount of changes, what's been left out, it does feel like a radical change to a great class lets hope it doesn't break it.

I am a firm believer in waiting until I can see it for myself but this comment raises all sorts of alarm bells

"Hopefully, any concerns that are still surfacing through the Beta process can get hammered out"

So there are issues and with just a month to go they are only hopeful of fixing a class they've 'broken'

seems alrite, just after readin the stuff...

theres just one wee thing im wonderin, it was mentioned before, sum sorta dev diary brainstormin post, that after its been such hard grind getn the current moors gear, the 6 pieces of armour an likewise the dunhoth gear, there was the idea of givin those ppl, who did the grind, sum sorta possibility of a "barter" into a new set... !?!?! just been loose talk?
mite b the wrong thread, alas theres a helluvalot threads winin on comin ROI, sumone mite have an answer in here...

all the best...

Originally Posted by Reillan

I *liked* being useful in a fellowship as a way to maintain aggro...?

I noticed this too along with the removal of most of the fellowship helping ability of Heroics. So my first thought was these two changes are removing any extra "support" skills of the champion.

However thinking a bit further. You can still do the rising/ebbing ire trick. You just have to change stances to do it, and can still save that healer who grabbed aggro. You save a valuable quick slot as well (not so vital for champion maybe but it's still handy). For Heroics you still get a debuff in ardour stance, so this just transforms a very rarely used skill into one that will be used much more often.

Originally Posted by OptimShi

I did not see an explanation for a WHY in the diary? As in, "why the need to change the class behavior?" It was just a "this is what we did".

Mostly I think because Ardour was nearly useless for most champions and Glory was really hard to tank with. Now there are really three very viable trait sets. I know there are many players who want one and only one build but having variety is very nice I think. More than most classes I think Champions really were starting to look like cookie-cutter copies of each other.

What I want to see is whether Ardour becomes the standard fellowship stance or not because of the AoE benefits?

so really grd's, cappies, and warden's don't have to worry about not finding a spot, but RK's and Hunters do? If fervour isn't generating tons of threat, but the damage is still there, then why go with another dps class at all? i am confused.

Too many changes to really know if this is exciting without actually playing the new Champion class. I must admit though that getting rid of the healing Penalty on Fervor makes me happy no matter what.

Open the preview server please so I can see how it drives.

Originally Posted by Vysion34

RIP Controlled Burn

RIP Pre-RoI Champion

Yeah, I'll miss CB. Clear trash, pop CB for mini boss, clear more trash while it cools down, pop it again for next boss...great way to handle instances.

Killing it will motivate people to tank in Glory though, so it's not a surprise.

Originally Posted by Reillan

grrrrrrrrrrrr

I *liked* being useful in a fellowship as a way to maintain aggro...

Me too. I knew it was coming but it's still my least favorite change mentioned in the diary. I guess we all get to stance dance if we want to keep manipulating group threat.

Originally Posted by JasonEvan

so really grd's, cappies, and warden's don't have to worry about not finding a spot, but RK's and Hunters do? If fervour isn't generating tons of threat, but the damage is still there, then why go with another dps class at all? i am confused.

Fervor wasn't generating tons of threat before, at least not outside of what you get just from DPS. Raging Blades is the only thing that generated extra threat*. If you weren't spamming it then you were just making threat from raw DPS. Most every boss fight falls in to the category of "I don't need to spam Raging Blades". Champs that generated tons of threat did so because they did tons of damage....Raging Blades is just a nice garnish.

Whether or not you take a Champ over a Hunter or RK is content dependent, not threat dependent. What you will fight, penalties for being in melee range, whether or not you need a range tank, whether or not something is more/less susceptible to tactical damage...those are some of the things that determine whether or not a Champ gets a spot in a group instead of a Hunter or RK. That's if it matters at all of course. For most things you can put any DPS, from any class, in to a group and do just fine.

*Ferocious Strikes also generates extra threat. It's terribad for damage in its current form though so no one uses it unless they're tanking and explicitly want the extra threat.

Some questions come to my mind.

1. What about Ferocius Strikes. Does it still generate threat, at least in Glory?

2. What is the cooldown of untraited Dire Need? I understood that it was to be lowered to 5 minutes, but that doesn't agree with the traited version getting a 5 minute reduction in cooldown.

3.What about the powerful healing that deep traiting in the Martial line was supposed to award when falling under 50% morale? I guess it hasn't survived testing?

4. Are the other DPS classes being affected ("nerfed") in their sustained DPS? If not, is there any imporant improvement in DPS output in the Fervour stance which I cannot see? I actually don't understand the statement that testing proves that Fervour "has reclaimed the title of top dog for sustained DPS". Please, explain how can that be (maybe because of increased power generation?).

Finally, I must admit that I am a bit upset. These changes seem to affect the way we play the Champion: I am concerned that our role as DPS + off-tank (which is what my fellows expect of me when I group up) seems to be seriously questioned. Currently I pop Glory and I can defend the healers from stray mobs in raids. Then, I pop Fervour and charge back on the boss, where I am accounted a main DPS class. The problem is that apparently, after the changes, I will not be able to keep aggro from stray mobs just popping Glory, since it has lost its +60% threat generation. I would have to trait deep in the Martial Champion line to hold the mobs on me. Evidently, that would detract a lot from my DPS output when I go back to the boss, where I would not be accounted a main DPS class. And this seems to question the very presence of Champions in the harder instances: a Guardian will be better for off-tanking, while a Hunter, being ranged, will be better for DPS. It is in the combination of off-tanking + DPS where Champions find their niche when grouping.

Is there any way around this problem? Apparently, the role of off-tank is severely affected by being linked to the tanking line and being separated so drastically from the DPS line. Once again, please, I'd like some explanation if I am wrong --and how the role as off-tank can still be performed in the same way that we were accostumed.

Originally Posted by Maeg

Some questions come to my mind.


4. Are the other DPS classes being affected ("nerfed") in their sustained DPS? If not, is there any imporant improvement in DPS output in the Fervour stance which I cannot see? I actually don't understand the statement that testing proves that Fervour "has reclaimed the title of top dog for sustained DPS". Please, explain how can that be (maybe because of increased power generation?).

The pips, power and time saved by the always on Flurry should significantly increase DPS.

Tanking Champions will need to get hit to hold aggro, forcing them to focus more on vitality and morale.

Haha! All that time I've been called a morale hoarder (or something less pleasant) and now I'm in my element! It's my favourite game to stack morale and now I have a reason!!!

So many changes. I'll need to give it a try before I know how I feel about it. Overall, it seems to have a good feeling to it (as opposed to looking fair and feeling foul).

There is one thing, though: I've started doing the L45 class quests on my new champ (who is now L47). I was wondering how I was going to obtain the rare items needed to complete those quests in order to get Controlled Burn, which is (soon-to-be which was) a must-have. Now, I needn't bother. Maybe. We'll see.

Overall like what I see. I can live with the Controlled burn change. Ardour and glory changes will be interesting.

Questions

1. Why can't seeking blades be an auto crit like aim for relentless attack? Burgs are going to have auto crits all over now that they get one out of stealth without aim.

2. Can we get the list of skills for 66-75 please?

3. CONCERN: I am not sure I like the change to Continuous Blood Rage. I liked using CBR a lot in situations when the -90% healing did not make a difference as I was not relying on a healer. I used it a lot soloing since I am not using a healer. CBR was also very useful in instances when I could avoid aggro and aoe hits. If I was not getting hit, the -90% healing did not matter. With this change CBR will be greatly affected in both those situations. CBR will not be useful soloing at all with no healer around, and if I use CBR in an instance, even if I am not getting hit the increase of the bleed will make a healer focus heal me regardless if I avoid getting hit.

This really hurts solo CBR champ in the moors.

Can we at least get it so the bleed does not hurt us out of combat?

Originally Posted by Reillan

grrrrrrrrrrrr

I *liked* being useful in a fellowship as a way to maintain aggro...

As another poster said already, I read the Ebbing/Rising change to simply mean that you'll need to stance dance to manipulate group aggro with the Ires. Switch to Glory to Rise, and make sure to be in Fervour or Ardour to Ebb.

Originally Posted by Maeg

Finally, I must admit that I am a bit upset. These changes seem to affect the way we play the Champion: I am concerned that our role as DPS + off-tank (which is what my fellows expect of me when I group up) seems to be seriously questioned. Currently I pop Glory and I can defend the healers from stray mobs in raids. Then, I pop Fervour and charge back on the boss, where I am accounted a main DPS class. The problem is that apparently, after the changes, I will not be able to keep aggro from stray mobs just popping Glory, since it has lost its +60% threat generation. I would have to trait deep in the Martial Champion line to hold the mobs on me. Evidently, that would detract a lot from my DPS output when I go back to the boss, where I would not be accounted a main DPS class. And this seems to question the very presence of Champions in the harder instances: a Guardian will be better for off-tanking, while a Hunter, being ranged, will be better for DPS. It is in the combination of off-tanking + DPS where Champions find their niche when grouping.

Is there any way around this problem? Apparently, the role of off-tank is severely affected by being linked to the tanking line and being separated so drastically from the DPS line. Once again, please, I'd like some explanation if I am wrong --and how the role as off-tank can still be performed in the same way that we were accostumed.

I suppose this really depends on why you were switching to Glory to pick up the adds on the healer. Was it for the extra threat generation, or the fact that you didn't want to overburden your healer by getting a lot of aggro while in Fervour (and thus suffering from the -30% incoming healing penalty)? If it was the latter, then the change shouldn't bother you at all - you'll be able to stay in Fervour and still get just as much healing as you're used to getting in Glory now. Even if it's the former, it shouldn't be much of an issue - as another poster said, a lot of the Champ's threat comes from DPS. I've almost always found it easier to get and hold aggro in Fervour than in Glory, anyway. Your experience may be different, however.

Originally Posted by bigsix66

So many changes. I'll need to give it a try before I know how I feel about it. Overall, it seems to have a good feeling to it (as opposed to looking fair and feeling foul).

There is one thing, though: I've started doing the L45 class quests on my new champ (who is now L47). I was wondering how I was going to obtain the rare items needed to complete those quests in order to get Controlled Burn, which is (soon-to-be which was) a must-have. Now, I needn't bother. Maybe. We'll see.

Always get all of your class traits, even the ones that may look or seem useless at the time you're working on acquiring them. You never know when today's useless trait may become a valuable one for a certain situation, or useful in many situations.

If I have to le-learn the class from the start I will rather go le-learn something completely new in another game. Preferably p2p.
Thank you Orion for helping me make my mind. Its been fun most of the time.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Always get all of your class traits, even the ones that may look or seem useless at the time you're working on acquiring them. You never know when today's useless trait may become a valuable one for a certain situation, or useful in many situations.

That's good advice and yeah, I'll get CB eventually. It's just not as high of a priority for me as it would have been if the skill was going to remained unchanged.

I think the legendary skill acquired from completing the L45 quests should be worth the trouble it puts you through. After getting CB, Eagle Friend and Stick N Move as a reward for my champ/LM/burg completing those quests, I remember how disappointed I was with Bow of the Righteous when my hunter completed the aforementioned quests. I mean, it's ok, but it paled in comparison to the other skills I mentioned.

The new and (what seems to be the) severely gutted version of CB may prove to be a similar disappointment to future generations of champs. I wonder if a different legendary skill should be rewarded instead for the completion of those quests.

Originally Posted by Maeg

Currently I pop Glory and I can defend the healers from stray mobs in raids. Then, I pop Fervour and charge back on the boss, where I am accounted a main DPS class. The problem is that apparently, after the changes, I will not be able to keep aggro from stray mobs just popping Glory, since it has lost its +60% threat generation. I would have to trait deep in the Martial Champion line to hold the mobs on me.

contrary to what you might think logically, fervour actually has better threat generation than glory right now, due to the damage penalty while in glory. all you have to do to pull mobs off a healer early is hit bladestorm/raging blades. rising ire is also helpful, there's no real reason to jump to glory for off tanking unless you need extra survivability.

Originally Posted by bigsix66

The new and (what seems to be the) severely gutted version of CB may prove to be a similar disappointment to future generations of champs.

hard to say. it's meant to stack on top of any current stance bonuses, so it could end up being the champs version of burn hot and useful for when you need to burn something fast. will probably miss old cb though .

Personally, I love the changes.

CB change doesn't bother me, as it's now a damage BUFF, instead of a decrease of 5% from fervour. The reason I pop it now is to get perma-flurry (and glorious exchange, to a lesser extent) and avoidances. Now I get perma-flurry just by being in fervour and I'd like to think that the removal of the healing penalty will make up for, or even outweigh the fact that I lose the avoidances for the short time I'm in CB.

Change to the Ires doesn't bother me whatsoever. You shouldnt need to use both ires to maintain aggro in a fight. I don't think you guys realize how powerful ebbing is by itself. A good tank doesn't even need help in most fights, and a simple ebb to him here and there from a champ who should already be near the top of the threat list from dps, should be plenty. Add in burglars provoking, rk's and minis using threat reductions skills, etc. it really shouldnt even be an issue. If it is, you can always stance dance.

My only concern will be CBR, though I think it will just have a different use for me now.

I do have questions though:

What's going on with Ferocious?

What about 66-75 skills? I assume one will still be improved seeking blades, guaranteed crit.

What happened to the sprint change? Is it still happening or what? Either way I'm ok with it. I was sorta looking forward to it but I'm ok with the current sprint too.

Other than that, I love Fervent Flurry. I like that they're at least attempting to make ardour useful, and the changes to it sound good so we'll see. I'm liking the sound of tanking actually being a challenge. I like the new power restore. I don't use second wind a whole lot now, but I think I would use this new one more, especially if I continue my switch to dual wield.

Originally Posted by jlr

What happened to the sprint change? Is it still happening or what? Either way I'm ok with it. I was sorta looking forward to it but I'm ok with the current sprint too.

think it was scrapped, sure i remember reading a post from orion somewhere about it. oh here we go.

Originally Posted by Orion

That was a proposal and subject to change...and guess what...it changed.

Sprint will be staying as it is in live.

So many changes. Can't wait to play the class and see how it works out.

I'm still missing 1 thing though: unlocking hobbit champions.

Originally Posted by roufneck

So many changes. Can't wait to play the class and see how it works out.

I'm still missing 1 thing though: unlocking hobbit champions.

But only if they are forbidden to wield 2-handed weapons.

Gonna be massive carnage and friendly fire if raging blades is triggered, and the wee hobbit gets swirled around his sword instead of the pointy end :-)

I'd rather drop the avoidance penalty on fervour than the incoming healing debuff. This would make champions much more pvp viable while still discouraging fervour tanking in pve.

Better yet, remove the penalties completely. Glory doesnt have any penalties. Avoidance wasnt metioned in the ardour section, but as icpr and pip gen were specifically mentioned as being unchanged, im going to assume the avoidance penalty is gone. It doesnt make sense for fervour to be so heavily penalised when the other stances offer only benefits.


I'd also like to see improved rend increased in magnitude to be more inline with other armour reductions. It doesnt make sense to me that reavers get something like 2000 reduction and champs only get 400ish.

Beyond that im hesitant to render an opinion without actually playing with the changes myself, but i will say this is better than what i had expected.

Hmmm. The changes aren't bad but compared to the burglar...? I think burgs will be prefered because of the changes of counter defence.
I think champ is a DD, every1 who likes tanking should prefer guard. DMG, Solo play and PvP pushes would be more usefull than a nice tank or aoe stance.

The idea of the defence after a critical hit with brutal strikes was great, why got it changed? Withoud CB champ has no opportunity to stay alive longer without losing a lot of dmg.
And skills between 65 and 75? Nothing? Really?^^

I think champ will be a class who can tank, aoe and DMG... but nothing really good.

----------------
Does they fix the +x% fervour DMG bug if you switch weapons?

I seem to remember a post from Orion where he said that the first swing of Feral Strikes would be a guaranteed corruption removal. Too bad it didn't make it, though I understand that it'd have made it the best corruption removal skill in the game by far with it's low cooldown. At the very least, they should've tweaked the percentages for DW vs 2H to have a roughly equivalent chance for removal. Sigh, I'l keep telling everyone that they have to remove them because I can't.

1. To my mind, it's good that there are some improvements like continous Flurry while Fervour-Stance.

2. But where are the things like improved brutal stikes, the cooldownreduce for dire need and things like that?
If i see the "Month of the Champion" compared with "some bugfixes for burglar" i really think my loved champion goes away empty-handed.
It really seems like a big joke.


greets

At The Ready is a trait trait I never bothered acquiring as it required blocking with a shield (I play a guard when I want to do that)

I don't see any mention of how the At The Ready trait will be acquired now that the vision of champions is not using shields at all.

Care to enlighten us?

Originally Posted by CmdrMagic

1. Why can't seeking blades be an auto crit like aim for relentless attack? Burgs are going to have auto crits all over now that they get one out of stealth without aim.

Orion stated in one of his blogs that seeking blades will be upgraded between 66 and 75 to auto crit on remorseless.