Reread a couple times, calling attention to a difference in past/present tense is......basically nitpicking, but why?
Clearly I was being agreed with! Facts? Lollin
Nevermind, buff everything so the lowest common denominator can hit 3 buttons and win, it's turbine after all.
Ask your spider friends, the ones who say we're still viable if they would agree with you that spiders are as good 1v1 as they've ever been (so they're as strong RIGHT NOW with the mitigation bug, broken hatchling, and lack of DPS scaling to level cap that we are, despite all of these factors AS strong relative to where other classes are for 1v1).
This is the very literal meaning of your assertion, which was very false.
Can spiders still 1v1? Absolutely. Especially in arranged fights with agreed to limits on cooldowns, no use of LOS to break kiting. But if you think it's anything like what it was pre-RoI you are really really off the mark.
Nice passive aggressive straw-man "just dumb it down blah blah blah". Just put that fake opposing argument that no one in this thread is remotely proposing up there and take a shot at it on your way out. Way to go! You sure proved those non-existent people arguing for something you made up wrong!
If anything, I find the current spider "dumbed down". There is no real skill rotation. You basically apply a debuff here or there, and then jump turn to fire off either lethal or TK, depending on which is cooled down while moving as much as possible. Goes well if your mouse sensitivity is maxed, but is very boring. If anything I'd like to see the importance of a proper skill cycle and good timing returned to the class.
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
Mitigation bug aside obviously, but if you can only TK kite.... Because spiders are an obvious dps class whose victories rested solely on a 15% damage disparity in TK, thennnn yeah. I'd suggest take your own advice and learn to mouse turn/loop better with higher sensitivity or just quit being bad. If TK were to be buffed 50% you'd just be complaining about the exact same thing, that people were spamming button and ranking spiders like crazy making it trivial to actually be decent. IE after book 8.
"There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them."
If anything, I find the current spider "dumbed down". There is no real skill rotation. You basically apply a debuff here or there, and then jump turn to fire off either lethal or TK, depending on which is cooled down while moving as much as possible. Goes well if your mouse sensitivity is maxed, but is very boring. If anything I'd like to see the importance of a proper skill cycle and good timing returned to the class.
Yes spiders aren't as easy as they used to be, involves good movement and skill now.
This is similar to that of hunters in SoM, if they got caught in malee they were usually blown up.
Just because we can't 2v1 stuff anymore. (Unless is 2 nubs).
Galuf asked me last night about something you told him, you were qqing to him and saying spiders fire mits were at 10%.
I found that a bit odd as I haven't had a great deal of trouble with LM's. I Went and looked and saw my r7 spider mits were at 24% with no added traits or benefits. Exaggerating to make a point I see.
People that claim the whole "kiting is boring" generally Do Not know how to kite.
As people always say its not class, its the person behind the computer screen.
If your not kiting on a spider you SHOULD die. If your able to kill something on a class capable of kiting without taking advantage of it, it probably means you would be overpowered when given the chance to kite.
(ie if a BA could kill things consistently in melle, how stupidly OP must their range be?)
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. <Generally OP
I don't want to get too involved in this back and forth stuff, but the way I read Stickezee's response (and I haven't talked to him at all ) was the same way that I feel about the spider. Back when we had our old style group of three hatchlings there was a real skill involved in stacking poisons and timing skills in such a way as to maximise your chances of success. Fights with top class Hunters (like Galuf) were super fun back then. That has all gone now and there really isn't any skill rotation. I feel as if all the "clever" has been sucked out of the class and all that is left is to slow and run like coward to avoid being hit.
We hit 75's for less than we hit 65's whilst the 75's have much increased DPS than the 65's ever did. Apparently there is a mitigation bug but I don't do graphs and stats so I have to take others word on that.
I find kiting boring and I keyboard turn so maybe that is the reason Fathlorn? I do suck at kiting as a result, that's a fact. I don't know, it's just how I feel but your probably right. If that makes me a joke and a loser in the eyes of some then so be it, but I'll keep doing what ever it is that I find to be fun.
As for "if your not kiting on a spider your SHOULD die", that's just plain wrong. We have two main DPS skills and one of them is a melee skill. Of course we will die if we stand still against a melee class, but we don't have to run around in huge circles dropping poo and never closing to melee range to win. I've proven that over the years with my play style. Maybe I could have been better if I had kited all the time, but if I had then I would have become bored and been off playing Skyrim and SWTOR by now. Unfortunately the skills that used to allow a clever spider to fight within melee range have either been nerfed or made redundant so maybe all that's left is running and burrowing?
I'm hoping we are given a hatchling that works, a catch prey that works, and a skill rotation that allows for some intelligence and puts some of the clever back in the spider.
To get back on topic though, I will still be out there ambushing Freeps and I will still jump anyone. Even when I'm losing I'm still learning and having fun.
Yes Im sure most Freeps are enjoying the Fight Clubs at PTR due to the fact it is the only time you can keep 100% of the Renown versus sharing it with 17 other Zergmates
I keep seeing the same Reavers fight Guardians and Captains over and over and over...and losing every time
Every time.
Anyway...dont be too shocked when your Fight Club gets interrupted because Purebloodnakh does not approve of such activity.
Good luck to all Creeps who are foolish enough to enter these Clubs
My name is Purebloodnakh, Chieftain of Saruman's Armies of the North, General of the Warg Legions, loyal servant to the true Lord, Sauron. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Mitigation bug aside obviously, but if you can only TK kite.... Because spiders are an obvious dps class whose victories rested solely on a 15% damage disparity in TK, thennnn yeah. I'd suggest take your own advice and learn to mouse turn/loop better with higher sensitivity or just quit being bad. If TK were to be buffed 50% you'd just be complaining about the exact same thing, that people were spamming button and ranking spiders like crazy making it trivial to actually be decent. IE after book 8.
Funny thing when someone has a consistent stance, isn't it?
Yes, in book 8 where the acid damage change sucked all the need for a competent player out of the class and turned into a boring kite and DoT class I complained. Now, when the class has again been turned into a boring kite and DoT class, I'm complaining again.
Maybe it's just an older spider thing. The class when it's functioning properly has a lot more complexity than using TK on cooldown.
Originally Posted by FKing
Yes spiders aren't as easy as they used to be, involves good movement and skill now.
This is similar to that of hunters in SoM, if they got caught in malee they were usually blown up.
Just because we can't 2v1 stuff anymore. (Unless is 2 nubs).
I think it actually requires less "skill" now... I don't find running in a big circle jump turning twice every 8 seconds to fire two abilities particularly "skilled" play. You want to talk hunters in SoM? Yep, had to kite. Also had a resource system to monitor that rewarded economy of movement, interesting cooldowns and a much more well rounded "toolkit" for kiting. Definitely a LOT more depth vs the current dot-n-kite spider.
Good movement will always be a part of pvp in an MMO.
But good skill-play rotation and timing should be too. And that has been utterly stripped from the weaver class.
Originally Posted by FKing
Galuf asked me last night about something you told him, you were qqing to him and saying spiders fire mits were at 10%.
I found that a bit odd as I haven't had a great deal of trouble with LM's. I Went and looked and saw my r7 spider mits were at 24% with no added traits or benefits. Exaggerating to make a point I see.
I told him warg fire mits outside of shadow howler stance were at ~12% base.
Wouldn't you know I was right?
The mit bug was caused by a change to the diminishing returns curve for armor rating on NPCs. Since creeps are built off the same system, we all had our mits change. The higher our ratings, the more noticable the drop, and also the weaker any effect that adds defense ratings (ie: shadow howler, aura of protection and consumables are quite weaker than pre-U5).
Spiders were "lucky" to only lose around 3-4% mitigations. Of course, mitigation is a non-linear stat. Losing 3-4% mitigations actually translates to taking 4-5.2% more damage. This is of course compounded by the item budget changes and gear progression of U5.
My fire mitigation unbugged SHOULD be in the 28-29% range, by the way. A nice additional ~6.5% incoming damage from all fire sources!
Originally Posted by FKing
People that claim the whole "kiting is boring" generally Do Not know how to kite.
Mindless, elitist generalization. I know how to kite just fine (see me soloing in moria book 6 up on CM, when being in melee range = dead in 4 seconds).
Just because I can do it doesn't mean I find it fun, interesting, engaging or well designed.
Originally Posted by FKing
As people always say its not class, its the person behind the computer screen.
I've really never cared what other people have thought of me as a soloer, because I don't play games to boost my self esteem (I play them because they are fun). Nice passive aggressive dig though. When your arguments about balance don't hold up? Insult your opposition!
Last edited by Sezneg; Jan 06 2012 at 11:23 AM.
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
I don't think that except for the period after book 8 spiders ever really functioned right since historically they've probably had the most bugs affecting the class in general. However it's just during that period when a bunch of bads rolled up and zergleeched 8-9 ranks of nonstop TK spam and never went back, (lookin at you stickyicky but since that's neither here nor there I still remain of the opinion that spiders can still do quite well, especially with the new burrow heal, do they need buffs? Which creep class doesn't.
"There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them."
I don't think that except for the period after book 8 spiders ever really functioned right since historically they've probably had the most bugs affecting the class in general.
Really, the only weaver specific bug of note before the various hatchling bugs was the lie in wait root aura in book 14. More a quirk than anything else.
Originally Posted by Thorandril
However it's just during that period when a bunch of bads rolled up and zergleeched 8-9 ranks of nonstop TK spam and never went back
Yeah, I played a full week in book 8 where I basically tried to 1v1 people using only WTE/TK and paralytic venom. It was really sad, and probably the only reason I have any level 65 characters (since I needed to find something else to do for a while).
Originally Posted by Thorandril
I still remain of the opinion that spiders can still do quite well, especially with the new burrow heal, do they need buffs? Which creep class doesn't.
I still disagree with you here, but "do quite well" is a nebulous statement that hardly means anything at all.
I did get a bit of a chuckle of stating that the burrow heal being such a big help, given your views on the lotro store (that's a rank 14 trait, any spider using that on the US servers is paying to win zomg!).
Last edited by Sezneg; Jan 06 2012 at 04:06 PM.
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
Quote me saying I disagree with creeps being able to buy skills. Using monthly TP allowance on creeps I have no problem with, since the current (poor) implementation is pay to compete.
"There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them."
Quote me saying I disagree with creeps being able to buy skills. Using monthly TP allowance on creeps I have no problem with, since the current (poor) implementation is pay to compete.
Unfortunately, the search user post archive only goes back to November. I was pretty sure you had taken part in the great skills on store QQ pre-ROI launch. But in fairness to you, even if you had that would have been before you had seen how things had played out since then.
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
Unfortunately, the search user post archive only goes back to November. I was pretty sure you had taken part in the great skills on store QQ pre-ROI launch. But in fairness to you, even if you had that would have been before you had seen how things had played out since then.
I did, and my stance on the matter never changed. I saw it as a good addition (through poor implementation) to pvp and the major gripe was that somehow there'd be 900 greenies rolling around wrecking everything with store bought skills and items, and the other 5% who were butthurt that they'd "worked so hard" on their rank and that plebs should not have access to those skills. I knew how it'd play out, so it wasn't surprising when freeps were immediately complaining about actually dealing with close-to-even odds before update 5.
"There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them."
1. The tell Galuf linked to me said "our fire mit". And considering we are talking about spiders, warg mits tell us alot about spiders.
2. If spiders are easier now since you don't have to time hatchlings right and what ever other higher ranked skills were needed. Then stop QQing in these forums and in OOC about how spiders can not 1v1. So if you know how to win why not either try it and win or just stop QQing.
Your QQ is the only reason I spoke up. Seen you to many times in OOC and on the forums cry about spiders in 1v1's. But now you've flipped and saying they are dumbed down and easier. If thats the case why QQ?
1. The tell Galuf linked to me said "our fire mit". And considering we are talking about spiders, warg mits tell us alot about spiders.
You obviously didn't receive each and every sentence of the PMs (grats to Galuf for breaking the ToS by forwarding private communications from other players BTW). My SPECIFIC remark on spider fire mits was that we had lost over 10% of our total mitigation value from that catagory (Honestly, it's closer to a 20% decrease in mitigation for that specific category. Wargs and spiders seemed to have lost more fire than any other category, it's very likely that NPC races were given tactical damage weaknesses that mirror their physical damage weaknesses).
Originally Posted by FKing
If spiders are easier now since you don't have to time hatchlings right and what ever other higher ranked skills were needed. Then stop QQing in these forums and in OOC about how spiders can not 1v1. So if you know how to win why not either try it and win or just stop QQing.
Oh the QQs are out! Don't QQ this, don't QQ that! Can't disprove the person you are responding to on the forums? Well passive aggressive insulting didn't work... how about we try to label any legitimate thing they have to say as somehow invalid because it's a complaint! You can't speak your mind about things that aren't working right, because that's just QQ man, and we can't have that!
I have stated several times in creepside /ooc that I personally see little purpose for many of our classes to fight-club this update due to the mitigation bug. Clearly this reasonable viewpoint is somehow invalid because... well for some reason anything you don't like reading in /ooc is "QQ", and is invalid because you say so. Charming.
Originally Posted by FKing
Your QQ is the only reason I spoke up. Seen you to many times in OOC and on the forums cry about spiders in 1v1's. But now you've flipped and saying they are dumbed down and easier. If thats the case why QQ?
Since the short version seems to go over your head, here's the longer version:
In book 8, due to going from common damage (which was mitigated highly), to acid damage (which was mitigated in the teens) our DoT gained massive effectiveness. It was actually more effective to simply spam Tk than even bother with other skills. This was dumb.
Currently, the effectiveness of our various debuffs and other skills vs the risk of standing still long enough to use them means that it is actually more effective to simply spam TK than to even bother with other skills. This is also dumb. The class effectively has no proper skill rotation, there is no longer any timing element in the class skills. It's very moronic, and not functioning properly.
So in book 8, the class was dumbed down because our damage was made too strong (and yes, I was very opposed to this change when it went live).
In U5, we've been dumbed down because our debuffs have become too weak (basically inconsequential) which is made worse by the mitigation bug.
But I know, any sort of reasonable view I express here is just "crying" as far as you're concerned... because surely no one you disagree with could EVER have any viewpoint with merit.
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
You obviously didn't receive each and every sentence of the PMs (grats to Galuf for breaking the ToS by forwarding private communications from other players BTW).
To be fair, I ignored most of what you typed. I can't read wall of texts in IM form and PvP at the same time.
Sorry.
-----
Good fights on CM Scizor, our fights are getting closer and closer.
Couple more ranks and I think you'll be crushing my hobbit freckles!
To be fair, I ignored most of what you typed. I can't read wall of texts in IM form and PvP at the same time.
Sorry.
-----
Good fights on CM Scizor, our fights are getting closer and closer.
Couple more ranks and I think you'll be crushing my hobbit freckles!
Your Mighty Bestial Pounce devastated and topppled Sazh.
My name is Purebloodnakh, Chieftain of Saruman's Armies of the North, General of the Warg Legions, loyal servant to the true Lord, Sauron. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Logging onto Lotro, Creepside is my faction
Some much needed stress release and social inter-action
Real PVP they say? Bah, I'm just here to win
Loading up my TS3, let the solo zerg begin
Attacked by two Freep's! The victor in no doubt
When all I'm good for is tagging, zerging and calling-out
"2 Freep's at PTR", my voice sounds in alarm
10 creeps materialize, all keen to join the farm
The zerg is done, the Freep's retreat
A 5 inf. haul is no mean feat
Logging onto Lotro, Creepside is my faction
Some much needed stress release and social inter-action
Real PVP they say? Bah, I'm just here to win
Loading up my TS3, let the solo zerg begin
Attacked by two Freep's! The victor in no doubt
When all I'm good for is tagging, zerging and calling-out
"2 Freep's at PTR", my voice sounds in alarm
10 creeps materialize, all keen to join the farm
The zerg is done, the Freep's retreat
A 5 inf. haul is no mean feat
Lol, thats better than kruvas
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. <Generally OP
Logging onto Lotro, Creepside is my faction
Some much needed stress release and social inter-action
Real PVP they say? Bah, I'm just here to win
Loading up my TS3, let the solo zerg begin
Attacked by two Freep's! The victor in no doubt
When all I'm good for is tagging, zerging and calling-out
"2 Freep's at PTR", my voice sounds in alarm
10 creeps materialize, all keen to join the farm
The zerg is done, the Freep's retreat
A 5 inf. haul is no mean feat
I've had some great impromptu 1v1s away from the crowd the last few days -
Sazh - double-KBs are fun. I look forward to fighting you more.
Pukish - I don't understand the corpse-jumping, but we had a number of good fights near Lug rez away from the damn boxers.
Iolex - whoa, I don't think I'd stand much of a chance against you even without all those Destiny Perks, but with them our fights were laughable even with my brand up. Good show.
Kidefence - champs are already hard enough to kill with the 2 bubbles, but your movement makes it doubly difficult to get inductions off.
There's been plenty of others who's names I've forgotten but anyway, thanks for coming out and fighting. The PvMP atmosphere has soured of late, but I'm glad that fantastic fights - though rare - are still waiting to happen.
That ugly mug is exactly what i imagine a half-uruk half-warg looks like. and btw, kudos to you for finally admitting you're a coward! thats what i call: progress
That ugly mug is exactly what i imagine a half-uruk half-warg looks like. and btw, kudos to you for finally admitting you're a coward! thats what i call: progress
Admitting you have a problem is the first step towards treatment.
.
Kidefence - champs are already hard enough to kill with the 2 bubbles, but your movement makes it doubly difficult to get inductions off.
Good movement but not good enough
Dodge this
Purebloodnakh scored a devastating hit with Swipe on Kidefence for 839 Shadow damage to Morale.Your mighty blow topples Kidefence
My name is Purebloodnakh, Chieftain of Saruman's Armies of the North, General of the Warg Legions, loyal servant to the true Lord, Sauron. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Thanks for all the fights around Lug rez today creeps.
Thraang, why the auto back-peddle to one shotters?
Lucky for you my internet was lagging...next time
My name is Purebloodnakh, Chieftain of Saruman's Armies of the North, General of the Warg Legions, loyal servant to the true Lord, Sauron. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
I appreciate you not just spamming stuns like other fail Burgs would do
Because if you did decide to spam stuns then I would be forced to seek revenge....
My name is Purebloodnakh, Chieftain of Saruman's Armies of the North, General of the Warg Legions, loyal servant to the true Lord, Sauron. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
my first official 1v1 .. was hunting stone trolls and came across a burg going to cleanse the hoarwell.. sorry I don't remember your name .. but I think you were R4 or R5. Well played.. I was happy to get you down to a little less than a half before I died
Logging onto Lotro, Creepside is my faction
Some much needed stress release and social inter-action
Real PVP they say? Bah, I'm just here to win
Loading up my TS3, let the solo zerg begin
Attacked by two Freep's! The victor in no doubt
When all I'm good for is tagging, zerging and calling-out
"2 Freep's at PTR", my voice sounds in alarm
10 creeps materialize, all keen to join the farm
The zerg is done, the Freep's retreat
A 5 inf. haul is no mean feat
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Originally Posted by Thorandril
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~Demonio~ R10
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