Very well, since the lore folks seem to think that dwarf goat mounts aren’t true to Tolkien as this is a “supposed” to be historical Northern European, I suggest the following are not lore friendly either:
1) Adventuring Hobbits, especially female hobbits
2) Adventuring Women, Tolkien even pointed this out
3) Potatoes
4) Blueberries
5) Black Ash trees
6) Largemouth Bass
Very well, since the lore folks seem to think that dwarf goat mounts aren’t true to Tolkien as this is a “supposed” to be historical Northern European
It's supposed to be reminiscent of it, not to actually be it. Dwarves riding around on goats is reminiscent of generic fantasy instead, it's D&Dish.
1) Adventuring Hobbits, especially female hobbits
Mentioned specifically by Tolkien himself: both male and female hobbits had, at times, gone on adventures with Gandalf.
2) Adventuring Women, Tolkien even pointed this out
He himself allows for the possibility of warrior women (as exceptions, mind you), even if they might have to disguise themselves (something which appears to have happened in real history, never mind fantasy). In any case, let's not get confused between adventuring and fighting, as from a storytelling perspective the two are not the same.
3) Potatoes
Author's privilege. There are several anachronisms to do with hobbits. I suspect they were intended as a storytelling device, a comfortable halfway house of the imagination between the real world the reader inhabits and the 'ancient' fantasy world that Middle-earth otherwise represents.
4) Blueberries
5) Black Ash trees
6) Largemouth Bass
Agreed, all careless Americanisms by the devs. And yes, there are more. Tolkien's deliberate anachronisms are late nineteenth-century English, representing his fond childhood memories of village life in the Midlands, so any American imports (like the potatoes or the tobacco) should fit in with that general theme. The greenery and the wildlife alike should be solidly European.
Also, Copper nodes should be green
Of course, but then we'd have numpties who don't know that asking why they're green
Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Aug 15 2011 at 06:11 PM.
It's supposed to be reminiscent of it, not to actually be it. Dwarves riding around on goats is reminiscent of generic fantasy instead, it's D&Dish.
Ive played many versions of D&D and cannot remember in any of the worlds that dwarves would ride goats. This may be a Warhammer thing.
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Mentioned specifically by Tolkien himself: both male and female hobbits had, at times, gone on adventures with Gandalf.
Yes, but it was so odd that other gentle hobbits would speak of these crazy hobbits for a long long time. I.e. they should be so rare, there should only be a handful on any one server.
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
He himself allows for the possibility of warrior women (as exceptions, mind you), even if they might have to disguise themselves (something which appears to have happened in real history, never mind fantasy). In any case, let's not get confused between adventuring and fighting, as from a storytelling perspective the two are not the same.
And also these Women should be so rare as to being only a handful per server. And adventuring by its very nature is directly related to fighting and combat. Simple folk living on farms dont simply drop everything to go off exploring troll infested caves without a sword or bow (yes Lorematsers would be the exceptions). Actually, when you think of it, most Men wouldn't be adventureres either. Now, the Dunadan might be the exception to this rule, but very few Dunadan women are mentioend either.
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Tolkien's deliberate anachronisms are late nineteenth-century English, representing his fond childhood memories of village life in the Midlands, so any American imports (like the potatoes or the tobacco) should fit in with that general theme. The greenery and the wildlife alike should be solidly European.
I totally agree on this with the Shire and maybe Bree-land, but outside that anything seems to be fair IMHO.
The original question being raised was whether goats were ridden by dwarves of lore. They were not mentioned. But then again, much was not mentioned.
The European assumption is a useless argument as goats LIVE in Europe and at least one European mythology actually has tiny creatures that ride goats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_%...k_mythology%29). Since Tolkien pulled from various European mythologies, that alone should qualify this as fair game.
Honestly, the only reason Turbine put in Goats is to give players a mount to use in Moria, as ponies and horses would never do it.
Would you guys rather walk around everywhere with no stables?
P.S. As for the lore accuracy, I don't recall there being mention of them, although Moria(and Dwarves in general) were never exactly covered in great detail, so I suppose it could be possible.
Wow, only took a page and a half for someone to actually answer the question and not argue about yaks/llamas/tomato/potato
I for one though would have preferred travel via mine cart in moria, temple of doom style
And adventuring by its very nature is directly related to fighting and combat. Simple folk living on farms dont simply drop everything to go off exploring troll infested caves
And neither would all adventurers. Being an adventurer doesn't necessarily involve fighting anything.
The original question being raised was whether goats were ridden by dwarves of lore. They were not mentioned. But then again, much was not mentioned.
The European assumption is a useless argument as goats LIVE in Europe and at least one European mythology actually has tiny creatures that ride goats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_%...k_mythology%29). Since Tolkien pulled from various European mythologies, that alone should qualify this as fair game.
It's not a European 'assumption', as Tolkien said what his influences were. And where in myth is there anyone ordinary riding giant goats, specifically? Dwarves don't in German or Scandinavian myth and as that's where they actually come from, you're grasping at straws. Greek myth is indeed from way too far south, Tolkien said specifically that it was Northern European myth and legend he was into and even then, referring to the kind of tale he borrowed from he'd toned it down to take out some of the wilder stuff. Besides, tiny beings less than a foot tall riding ordinary-size goats has no bearing, that's fairy-story stuff.
It also looks like you only looked at the pictures in that Wikipedia article about the Yule Goat, didn't you read the text at all?
Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Aug 16 2011 at 03:02 PM.
And neither would all adventurers. Being an adventurer doesn't necessarily involve fighting anything.
Why would ANY of this matter in regards to the frequency of Women adventurers?
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
It's not a European 'assumption', as Tolkien said what his influences were.
And where in myth is there anyone ordinary riding giant goats, specifically? Dwarves don't in German or Scandinavian myth and as that's where they actually come from, you're grasping at straws. Greek myth is indeed from way too far south, Tolkien said specifically that it was Northern European myth and legend he was into and even then, referring to the kind of tale he borrowed from he'd toned it down to take out some of the wilder stuff. Besides, tiny beings less than a foot tall riding ordinary-size goats has no bearing, that's fairy-story stuff.
I’m afraid you got me there. I must have made up the Elvish word Atalantë, for Numenor, the island kingdom that sinks beneath the waves (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/atalante.html).
And the fourteen Valar are so completely unlike the Olympian Gods. I mean, Ulmo in no way shape or form resembles Poseidon.
If you could, pray tell, inform me of the ONLY sources of inspiration for Tolkien. I’ll admit, he was mostly influenced by the northern European myths, but to insinuate he was not influenced by anything else is silly. I mean, look at the Christian influences alone. If only there was a consolidated web page full of Tolkien inspirations….(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R...27s_influences)
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
It also looks like you only looked at the pictures in that Wikipedia article about the Yule Goat, didn't you read the text at all?
Really, the Yule Goat? Yep, that’s Santa Claus riding a goat or shape-changed bad spirit or at least an interpretation of the conversion from a goat that gives gifts to a fat bearded guy, so what? We are talking about inspirations based on modified and amalgamated folk and fairy tales.
Why would ANY of this matter in regards to the frequency of Women adventurers?
Because if being an adventurer isn't all about fighting, wits and cunning come more into play and women can be more than a match for men there.
I’m afraid you got me there. I must have made up the Elvish word Atalantë, for Numenor, the island kingdom that sinks beneath the waves (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/atalante.html).
Yes, Tolkien had a thing about the legend of Atlantis in particular (legend, note, not myth), but in his own words he said he was generally aiming for the 'air' of Northern Europe:
"It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our "air" (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe; not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East)"
...which indeed it does; Tolkien's writing positively exudes Germanic and Celtic influence. There are other legends beside Plato's of lands lost beneath the sea.
And the fourteen Valar are so completely unlike the Olympian Gods. I mean, Ulmo in no way shape or form resembles Poseidon.
Because only the Greeks had a god of the sea
The Valar were intended to resemble a pagan pantheon, yes, but not any one in particular. Pantheons tend to have roles in common, and a sea-god is no exception. There's one in Nordic myth, and in Celtic myth, and in Finnish myth as well.
If you could, pray tell, inform me of the ONLY sources of inspiration for Tolkien. I’ll admit, he was mostly influenced by the northern European myths, but to insinuate he was not influenced by anything else is silly. I mean, look at the Christian influences alone. If only there was a consolidated web page full of Tolkien inspirations….(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R...27s_influences)
I didn't say he was influenced by nothing else. I know all that, and I don't need a Wikipedia page to tell me it, either. It has nothing to do with Dwarves riding giant goats, in any case, which was the point. There is no source for that in myth, Turbine got that idea from modern fantasy.
Edit: and to note, that Wikipedia page you're attempting to rely on has at least one mistake in it given that it says there were only twelve Valar rather than fourteen.
Really, the Yule Goat? Yep, that’s Santa Claus riding a goat or shape-changed bad spirit or at least an interpretation of the conversion from a goat that gives gifts to a fat bearded guy, so what? We are talking about inspirations based on modified and amalgamated folk and fairy tales.
No, we're not. Santa Claus was a late addition, as it says, dropped on top of something that's evidently of pagan origin to Christianise it. That kind of odd combination wasn't what inspired Tolkien, he liked to go as far back as he could because he viewed older tales as more genuine.
Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Aug 16 2011 at 07:55 PM.
The God Thor rode a chariot pull by two He-Goths and Dwarfs are found in Norse Mythology, If its ok for Thor to ride goths it should be an Honor for all Lotro races to ride one.
First of all, goats in Moria are a game mechanic. Players need a mount in there, and due to several lore-based reasons horses and ponies are not viable.
1. Bill the Pony, the only Equus ever mentioned near Moria, couldn't be brought into the caves.
2. Turbine's only reference is the trilogy, not the Hobbit, so pony-riding dwarves don't count. OTOH, Gimli's (the only well described dwarf in LotR) refusal to mount any horse at all alone is a running joke throughout the whole story. I don't think there's a single incident during his whole journey where he rides a horse on his own, he is always the pillion of Legolas. If Gimli has any resemblance to other members of his people, dwarves in LotR simply don't ride at all.
If not Horses, why goats?
Goat-kinds are known to inhabit mountains naturally. They can still move in areas where even mules are useless. If horses as mounts are unusable, but you have to introduce some kind of mount, imho goats are the natural choice. BTW, I have no idea how one can get the idea of comparing these creatures to anything camel-like (and attract that unbelievable silly llama-discussion). There's much more goaty species than the usual house-goats everybody knows. Personally, I picture our Moria mounts as a kind of cross-breed between Muskoxs (which are goats biologically, not cows) and Chamois.
BTW, there was a dedicated Cave Goat on the Balearic Islands which was eradicated only 4000 years ago. It was too small to carry even Hobbit, though.
"HELP!!!!??" is not an appropriate thread title.
Only fools use apostrophes in a plural. That's when they're called fool's apostrophes.
First of all, goats in Moria are a game mechanic. Players need a mount in there, and due to several lore-based reasons horses and ponies are not viable.
1. Bill the Pony, the only Equus ever mentioned near Moria, couldn't be brought into the caves.
Horses don't like confined spaces, that's why. Especially not dark ones, and who can blame them? But they can be trained to put up with them: pit-ponies used to be used extensively in mining. Now, personally I'd be inclined to echo Gandalf's opinion that a mine is no place for a pony but then a mine is a pretty awful place for people, too.
2. Turbine's only reference is the trilogy, not the Hobbit, so pony-riding dwarves don't count.
That wasn't the case when MoM came out, so you can't just wave that away like that. We know that Dwarves did make as least some use of horses in LOTR, because they brought the stuff for Bilbo's birthday party to Bag End in a wagon. Gimli may simply have been entirely unskilled in riding one, and a full-sized horse would tower over a Dwarf.
If not Horses, why goats?
Goats have disadvantages. They smell, for one thing and more to the point, they're more skittish than horses. They can also be aggressive, and really big goats could be deadly dangerous if they took it into their heads to butt you. I wouldn't want to turn my back on one, put it that way.
[quote]Goat-kinds are known to inhabit mountains naturally. They can still move in areas where even mules are useless.[/goat]
This do not mean they can move with any type of load on their backs better then a mule.
I would like to think there is a reason people use mules in low mountains.. If we are talking "real" mountains.. No animal other then dogs and humans have ever been used to my knowledge.. (and I do have a fair bit of know how when it comes to mountains)
"It sing the tales about war and strife.
It sing the songs about the tears that have been shed."
Goat-kinds are known to inhabit mountains naturally. They can still move in areas where even mules are useless.[/goat]
This do not mean they can move with any type of load on their backs better then a mule.
I would like to think there is a reason people use mules in low mountains.. If we are talking "real" mountains.. No animal other then dogs and humans have ever been used to my knowledge.. (and I do have a fair bit of know how when it comes to mountains)
well then maybe you should google pack goat.
mules can only carry 10-20% of their bodywieght, goats on the other hand can do 20-30%
pack goats also require less feed/water then mules.
a guy in wyoming has been breeding and using pack goats since the 70's in mountainous terrain(rocky mountains) and mankind as a whole has been using them for centuries in middle east and around the mediterranean and also Tibet.
so in all honesty who is to say that someone( probably dorfs ) over the ages(1000's of years) in middle earth had not bred goats large enough to carry folk.
this is a fantasy setting after all.
Not one that includes giant goats, of itself, any more than it does chocobos or any other such fantasy alternative because this isn't just any fantasy setting, it's one that's supposed to be reminiscent of the real world and of northern European myth and legend in particular. Hence these Dwarves didn't ride goats, just as these Elves don't ride unicorns, giant cats, winged horses, dragons or any of the other things that people have imagined Elves riding, at one time or another.
Not one that includes giant goats, of itself, any more than it does chocobos or any other such fantasy alternative because this isn't just any fantasy setting, it's one that's supposed to be reminiscent of the real world and of northern European myth and legend in particular. Hence these Dwarves didn't ride goats, just as these Elves don't ride unicorns, giant cats, winged horses, dragons or any of the other things that people have imagined Elves riding, at one time or another.
yet it includes giant turtles
and giant eagles
and giant wurms
and giant salamanders
and giant bugs
and giant humanoids
and giants of all sorts truth be told.
with ALL these other giant species, why is it so hard for some to extend their suspension of disbelief a bit more for giant goats that can be ridden?
the way i see it, if SZC says it is ok for Turbine to do it then its ok with me.
SZC jealously guards its IP and will yank or refuse to renew if someone abuses it. (EA for example)
Invented by Turbine, at least as far as the ones we see in-game.
and giant eagles
Inspired by Norse myth
and giant wurms
and giant salamanders
and giant bugs
and giant humanoids
and giants of all sorts truth be told.
Most of which are more dubious things that Turbine came up with, and are therefore no recommendation for more of the same.
with ALL these other giant species, why is it so hard for some to extend their suspension of disbelief a bit more for giant goats that can be ridden?
The only thing that the giant goats suspend for me is my inclination to think it's Middle-earth rather than, say, Azeroth. As people have observed, it's going to look fake as hell to have people riding goats around the Land of the Horse-lords.
the way i see it, if SZC says it is ok for Turbine to do it then its ok with me.
SZC jealously guards its IP and will yank or refuse to renew if someone abuses it. (EA for example)
Utterly discredited as an argument, years ago. Middle-earth Enterprises (that's the bit of SZC that looks after licensing) aren't looking for any particular sympathy to the material, it's simply that they don't want their treasured IP being brought into disrepute by being associated with particularly shoddy product or anything blatantly inappropriate. If straightforwardly tasteless additions were a problem then EA would have lost their license an awful lot sooner.
The only thing that the giant goats suspend for me is my inclination to think it's Middle-earth rather than, say, Azeroth. As people have observed, it's going to look fake as hell to have people riding goats around the Land of the Horse-lords.
this is the only thing i can agree with.
i have no problem with the goats being in ME for reasons i have already stated.
however i DO have an issue with them being used outside of moria.
turbine should have never allowed them to be used above ground.
Utterly discredited as an argument, years ago. Middle-earth Enterprises (that's the bit of SZC that looks after licensing) aren't looking for any particular sympathy to the material, it's simply that they don't want their treasured IP being brought into disrepute by being associated with particularly shoddy product or anything blatantly inappropriate. If straightforwardly tasteless additions were a problem then EA would have lost their license an awful lot sooner.
nonsense.
ok then why does SZC not allow gender selection for dorfs?
i have no problem with the goats being in ME for reasons i have already stated.
however i DO have an issue with them being used outside of moria.
turbine should have never allowed them to be used above ground.
nonsense.
ok then why does SZC not allow gender selection for dorfs?
or eagle mounts?
or proper pvp?
The very fact that you say "dorfs" instead of Dwarves make your argument invalid.
And if you are seriously thinking eagle mounts should be allowed...lulz.
"And though all I see is darkness, I know that I will not flinch from my destiny."
I still have fond memories of early artwork for a planned dwarf mount in WAR Online, the glorious mine-cart, fueled only by your bitterness and grudges (and possibly beer).
Sadly it was later changed to some sort of 16th century jetpack, which is also sort of cool I guess... if only it could lift your fat dwarf ### more than an inch off the ground.
So to answer the question, no. I seem to recall a passage about dwarves distrusting horses and mounts in general, prefering to use their feet to get around, and I know for sure that most dwarves are intensely opposed to getting on a boat of any kind. But like someone mentioned, it's hard to imagine Moria at the height of its glory without extended use of some sort of beast of burden. Then again, a dwarf has both strength and a high endurance, so maybe they just rode the lower classes of dwarves around the mines?
Seriously though, I think you're supposed to see dwarves as this extremely persistent and self-reliant race. I wouldn't be suprised if Tolkien's answer was that they build Moria with their damn hands and dragged whatever needed to go somewhere themselves. The parts of Moria at the height of its power that you're shown during the epic doesn't have even a hint of goats or ponies, it's just endless halls full of dwarves.
Last edited by MannyCalavera; Nov 28 2011 at 06:41 AM.
If you are referring to the fact that you can only ride a goat in Moria, I don't think it really has much to do with the Dwarves. I think it has more to do with the fact that horses in the LOTR world don't like going inside caves, mountains, etc., whereas goats are more or less indigenous to the mountain areas and would be more likely to be found inside caves, mountains, etc.
Remember both Dwarfs and Hobbits are too short for regular and large size horses, now ponies being short would be ideal for both races outside of Moira. I say as far as horses and Dwarfs they ride anything short of stature of regular size horse and it be practical, If your between 3 foot to 5 feet 5 inches it makes sense to ride a pony instead of a Clydesdale.
Plants migrating? Indirectly, I just might be.
Plants migrating is easier than animals migrating by far. You just need some sort transportation. Like an animal, to migrate them. It's called an introduced species
I just have to point out how hilarious it is that plants can migrate more easily than animals because they can be carried by the (of course non-migratory) animals.
Wow. Nothing like the LOTRO forums to bicker over minutia. Well, ME is a fantasy setting. True, it's based on our world, but what about giant eagles, werewolves, vampires, dragons, orcs, spiders, etc. (and those are not Turbine creations, they really do occur throughout the books). Tolkien never said there were giant goats, but he never said there weren't. Tolkien was clearly creating a fantastic world with elements we would never see in our world, so why couldn't giant goats exist?
Wow. Nothing like the LOTRO forums to bicker over minutia. Well, ME is a fantasy setting.
That doesn't imply what you seem to think it does. Ask yourself, what kind of fantasy is it?
True, it's based on our world, but what about giant eagles, werewolves, vampires, dragons, orcs, spiders, etc. (and those are not Turbine creations, they really do occur throughout the books). Tolkien never said there were giant goats, but he never said there weren't. Tolkien was clearly creating a fantastic world with elements we would never see in our world, so why couldn't giant goats exist?
Tolkien was creating a fantastic world that was purposely intended to remind readers not just of 'our' world, but of myths and legends from Northern Europe. Giant goats don't come into that, they come from generic fantasy instead.
Well of course Tolkien based ME off of our world and the myths of Northern Europe. But does that mean that other creatures can't exist? As somebody said previously, just because Tolkien never mentions anyone pooping does not mean that they never pooped. The dwarves are barely described throughout the books, is it that far of a stretch to think that they might have giant goats? I believe that the goats stretch the lore, but do not break the lore.
Well of course Tolkien based ME off of our world and the myths of Northern Europe. But does that mean that other creatures can't exist? As somebody said previously, just because Tolkien never mentions anyone pooping does not mean that they never pooped.
He doesn't mention little green men from Mars, either. That's no argument at all for questionable additions.
The dwarves are barely described throughout the books, is it that far of a stretch to think that they might have giant goats?
If you accept it's meant to be a fantasy version of 'our' world and the stories are meant to be reminiscent of Northern European myth and legend, then that explains why people are riding horses rather than anything else: because that's what people did in Northern Europe, and hence what people were imagined as doing in its legend, too. Tolkien's just echoing that, whereas all Turbine are echoing is the kind of generic fantasy found in most games. It's an imposition.
Northern European myth and legend eh? What about Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjostr, the goats who pulled Thor's chariot?
What have Thor's two unique magic goats got to do with Dwarves riding giant but otherwise mundane goats? In myths, the gods have fantastic stuff because they're gods; going on with the Norse theme, Freyr's chariot was drawn by cats and Odin had that eight-legged horse of his. Mortals have to get about in ordinary ways, oddly enough.
What have Thor's two unique magic goats got to do with Dwarves riding giant but otherwise mundane goats? In myths, the gods have fantastic stuff because they're gods; going on with the Norse theme, Freyr's chariot was drawn by cats and Odin had that eight-legged horse of his. Mortals have to get about in ordinary ways, oddly enough.
Don't forget Frey's uber pig, Hildisvin ("Great Pig of Battle").
So you ask for an example of goats used as transportation in Northern European myth and legend, I provide an example, but it doesn't count? *sigh* I stand by my claim that goats are lore-stretching, but not lore-breaking. Would you like to walk everywhere in Moria?
So you ask for an example of goats used as transportation in Northern European myth and legend, I provide an example, but it doesn't count? *sigh*
Well, that would be largely because, as I said:
- nobody rode them, they drew a chariot
- they were unique, and magical
- they belonged to a god (and that does make a difference - you might expect gods to be out of the ordinary!)
- some of the other Norse gods had some rather unusual means of getting around, too
- and more to the point, the Dwarves of Norse myth didn't have anything to do with those goats, not even in the slightest. And those Dwarves are where Tolkien's Dwarves have their origins.
So I have my reasons, whereas you've got... what exactly? If we follow your argument then it'd be just as okay for our characters to ride around on huge cats or giant boar or magic horses with eight legs, and as that would obviously be mad it rather casts doubts on the goats, too.
I stand by my claim that goats are lore-stretching, but not lore-breaking. Would you like to walk everywhere in Moria?
If they could only ever have been used in Moria I'd certainly be happier with the things. It's the spectre of giant mutant goats being ridden around the Land of the Horse-lords that bothers not just me but (from what I've seen here and elsewhere) more than a few other people, too.
Dwarves on giant goats is every bit as 'lore-breaking' as Elves on chocobos would be, or any other random fantasy mount someone might come up with. It's the wrong kind of fantasy for that.
I certainly agree about keeping goats in Moria! I try to as much as possible, but I'll occasionally forget However, I find the pros of having goats (fun Moria mount and fleshing out the dwarves a little) far outweigh the cons (stretching the lore).
Don't worry though, I sure WON'T be riding my goat in Rohan.
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However, I find the pros of having goats (fun Moria mount and fleshing out the dwarves a little) far outweigh the cons (stretching the lore).
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