Thread: Did dwarves of lore actually ride goats?

Well, did they?

Well, unless you're gonna read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings trilogy, nothing is stated about Dwarves riding goats everywhere they go on wiki.com, which is all the searching on this topic that I've done so far.

My limited memory of the books doesn't recall any mention of Dwarves riding goats into battle, or anywhere else for that matter. Also, don't forget, Tolkien perhaps mistakenly didn't give a lot of details on Dwarves of Middle-Earth.

Dwarves are perhaps one of the least developed races that Tolkien created. However I love the story of their creation!

Ive read the Hobbit, LotR, and the Simarilion and I dont recall any mention of goats (although there may have been ponies in the Hobbit. Its been years...), however I am no lore expert.

Nothing about riding goats was specifically stated in the lore, no. The dwarves of The Hobbit rode ponies, but riding a goat would make some sense, I suppose, when traveling in the wild mountains.

No, giant goats or their relation to the dwarves are not mentioned anywhere in Tolkien's writings. They were created by Turbine as a mount for Moria (where horses and ponies would not be viable).

You know, topics such as these just make me feel that someone, SOMEONE at all, should just expand upon the mythos of Middle-Earth Dwarves.

Seriously, the Elves and Humans have DETAILED histories, languages, and everything else.

Mentioned no where. And in personal opinion, highly unlikely. Something like Goat mounts is not something I feel Tolkien would seriously add. It is a complete product of Turbine. If dwarves were travelling in the mountains, they'd probably go on foot. They aren't like us. They are hard to tire. An example is Gimli in FotR. They travelled on foot for a very long time. Everyone was tired, save Gimli. And another example is how he ran through Rohan without much lose of breath.
I'd guess they rode Ponies, when they wish to ride.

Dwarves riding: The only mention of Dwarves riding comes from the Hobbit, and they did ride ponies.

Dwarves travelling: The most notable feat of Dwarves travelling distances fast is the arrival of Dain Ironfoot's army to the Battle of the Five Armies, where the Dwarves had marches a few days straight, while wearing heavy armour and full packs. Another feat is Aragorn's, Gimli's and Legolas's chase of the White Hand Uruk-Hai - where keeping up with a Ranger and an Elf (who can "sleep" while walking) is already a feat.

Goats: Looking at our actual world, I cannot recall goats being used as a mount anywhere. In mythology, Thor's chariot is pulled by goats, though. I would assume that goats would be somewhat difficult beasts of burden due to their temperament. And then, they're small. The Redhorn Goats ingame are huge compared to real goats (which are, essentially, related to lambs) - (Finnish) Wikipedia tells me that goats over 65 cm at the withers are considered "large". Compare this to the size of ponies, which is defined to be under 148 cm at the withers.

Just for laughs:

Originally Posted by Mithfindel

Goats: Looking at our actual world, I cannot recall goats being used as a mount anywhere. In mythology, Thor's chariot is pulled by goats, though. I would assume that goats would be somewhat difficult beasts of burden due to their temperament. And then, they're small. The Redhorn Goats ingame are huge compared to real goats (which are, essentially, related to lambs) - (Finnish) Wikipedia tells me that goats over 65 cm at the withers are considered "large". Compare this to the size of ponies, which is defined to be under 148 cm at the withers.

turbines use of the name goat is very misleading and shows their lack of research like with the horse mounts in lotro.

the "goat" mounts in lotro are more akin to some kinda of yak/llama hybrid.

in the real world, if it is large enough to carry a man and can be domesticated, someone sometime in history has ridden it.

there are many cultures who use animals such as yaks and llamas for mounts in and on mountains.

now knowing the ingenuity of dorfs and the knowledge that horses dont do well in mines in middle earth, it IS conceivable that the dorfs domesticated or bred something from the Bovidae or Camelidae families for use in mines.

Originally Posted by megaboy

turbines use of the name goat is very misleading and shows their lack of research like with the horse mounts in lotro.

the "goat" mounts in lotro are more akin to some kinda of yak/llama hybrid.

in the real world, if it is large enough to carry a man and can be domesticated, someone sometime in history has ridden it.

there are many cultures who use animals such as yaks and llamas for mounts in and on mountains.

now knowing the ingenuity of dorfs and the knowledge that horses dont do well in mines in middle earth, it IS conceivable that the dorfs domesticated or bred something from the Bovidae or Camelidae families for use in mines.

Yaks and Llamas do not exist in MD.
This world resembles Europe. Yaks exist in Asia, and Llamas only to the New World. And Llamas cannot be rid. The Incas tried, with no success.

Given the size of moria and the fact that their are a few stairs they probably rode Ostriches

Originally Posted by Thaimli

Yaks and Llamas do not exist in MD.
This world resembles Europe. Yaks exist in Asia, and Llamas only to the New World. And Llamas cannot be rid. The Incas tried, with no success.

ORLY?

if ME is limited to just europe then how come there are elephants?

also just because there is no mention of an animal in the books does not mean they do not exist in middle earth.
remember the portion of ME that LOTR takes place in the not the whole world.

as for not being able to ride a llama that is a myth -

http://brianpink.tripod.com/trivia53.html

i guess those pics are all photo-shopped?
including the really old ones?

it is entirely plausible that the dorfs in their quest for riches through the mountains of ME came across one or more species of the family bovidae or camelidae and bred them over the Ages as mounts for themselves.

in terms of the game you have to make allowances, dorfs would have bred these "goats" for themselves, not men, though a case could be made for hobbits and elves to ride them.

Originally Posted by megaboy

ORLY?

if ME is limited to just europe then how come there are elephants?

also just because there is no mention of an animal in the books does not mean they do not exist in middle earth.
remember the portion of ME that LOTR takes place in the not the whole world.

as for not being able to ride a llama that is a myth -

http://brianpink.tripod.com/trivia53.html

i guess those pics are all photo-shopped?
including the really old ones?

it is entirely plausible that the dorfs in their quest for riches through the mountains of ME came across one or more species of the family bovidae or camelidae and bred them over the Ages as mounts for themselves.

in terms of the game you have to make allowances, dorfs would have bred these "goats" for themselves, not men, though a case could be made for hobbits and elves to ride them.

Ah, let me clarify my post then. ME, the part that we are in, the part that Tolkien wrote about, is based around Europe. Elephants come from Harad, based around Africa. The Mumakil is a creature that can survive in only these conditions. Just as a Yak has no place in this part of ME. *Maybe* in the Red Mountains, a yak could be used, since it is more likely for them to be there.

And if you note, those people riding the Llamas are quite small. Small children and women. The reason the llama was never ridden widely in history is due to it's weak spine. If a Llama existed in ME, then maybe a hobbit could rid it, or even an Elf. But no dwarf could ride it. You are forgetting, dwarves are stout and muscular, naturally. They weight equal to a Man, despite their size.
The Llama, even if it could be ridden by dwarves, I'd still say no. The Llama is a New World animal. New World animals and plants (with the exception of pipe-weed, potatoes, and a few other plants) do not exist in Middle-earth, as all of Middle-earth,(including the parts that are left unwritten about), represent the Old World. It is suggested that sometime, after WotR, the landmasses all got changed around, and a few landmasses added (which might be referencing the Americas).

Originally Posted by Thaimli

Yaks and Llamas do not exist in MD.
This world resembles Europe. Yaks exist in Asia, and Llamas only to the New World. And Llamas cannot be rid. The Incas tried, with no success.

Perhaps the Numenoreans brought them from over the Sea.

Originally Posted by The_Wise_Owl

Perhaps the Numenoreans brought them from over the Sea.

heck for that matter elves could have too.

or some were found as salvage from wrecked/captured corsair ships.
(thats why i think we have amercian horse flesh and not british)

Bringing an animal like a yak, or a llama on a boat? They'd die.

Originally Posted by Thaimli

Bringing an animal like a yak, or a llama on a boat? They'd die.

why?

large animals have been transported on ships for as long as man has built ships.

Originally Posted by megaboy

why?

large animals have been transported on ships for as long as man has built ships.

Yes, indeed. But Llamas and Yaks live in the mountains/foothills. They could not survive the journey over the sea. And the Numenoreans would likely have no need for something like the Yak, or the Llama. They had the cow and the ox, I believe. It is seems unlikely for them to use Yaks and Llamas when they have such easily domesticated animals. Yaks and llamas are stubborn, and hard to train, IIRC. And the stubborn, wild nature and temper of the animals, plus the fact that the Numenoreans have access to ox and cows, they would just use them as domesticated animals. Yaks and llamas are only trained as pack animals in places with no bovine species, if you take notice of the cultures that tame these creatures.

Originally Posted by Thaimli

Yes, indeed. But Llamas and Yaks live in the mountains/foothills. They could not survive the journey over the sea. And the Numenoreans would likely have no need for something like the Yak, or the Llama. They had the cow and the ox, I believe. It is seems unlikely for them to use Yaks and Llamas when they have such easily domesticated animals. Yaks and llamas are stubborn, and hard to train, IIRC. And the stubborn, wild nature and temper of the animals, plus the fact that the Numenoreans have access to ox and cows, they would just use them as domesticated animals. Yaks and llamas are only trained as pack animals in places with no bovine species, if you take notice of the cultures that tame these creatures.

who says they cannot survive the journey over the sea?

just so you know, yaks and llamas have been domesticated for as long as ox and cattle.

how do you think live examples of exotic species made it to various "zoos" kept by many royal courts throughout europe throughout history?

as to the why for wating yaks/llama. well how about because they are different?
different means profit
yak milk/meat and llama wool would sold/traded for higher prices then anything local.

fyi the yak is of the family bovidae (thats bovine) and the llama is of the family camelidae.

Originally Posted by Thaimli

The Llama is a New World animal. New World animals and plants (with the exception of pipe-weed, potatoes, and a few other plants) do not exist in Middle-earth, as all of Middle-earth,(including the parts that are left unwritten about), represent the Old World. It is suggested that sometime, after WotR, the landmasses all got changed around, and a few landmasses added (which might be referencing the Americas).

So why are Solanaceaes lore friendly (tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco, etc), but Camelids (which includes camels and llamas) are not?

Also, this IS a fantasy setting. Trust me, I have a fit enough when I see orangish copper deposits (they should be green) but I accept it as not only is this fiction, but also a game.

Originally Posted by megaboy

who says they cannot survive the journey over the sea?

just so you know, yaks and have been domesticated for as long as ox and cattle.

how do you think live examples of exotic species made it to various "zoos" kept by many royal courts throughout europe throughout history?

as to the why for wating yaks/llama. well how about because they are different?
different means profit
yak milk/meat and llama wool would sold/traded for higher prices then anything local.

fyi the yak is of the family bovidae (thats bovine) and the llama is of the family camelidae.

You're on the offense, eh mate? Ever hear of a friendly debate, yes?
Exotic animals were first used when the industrial revolution came, and they had proper cages and chemicals to calm the animals down.
This is a pseudo-medieval setting. People would just like regular milk. I don't believe most people would care about getting themselves some yak milk/meat, or the fur of a llama.
It is unlikely for Yaks to be domesticated for as long as the cow because there was no domestication of animals until about 12,000 years ago, in the Fertile Crest, the locals first starting to stop their hunting-gathering society, and changed to actual permanent settlements. There they starting farming and herding. And after time the cow spread to Europe, and this ideology of settlements spread to Africa, to Asia, and all over the mainland of the Old World, within time. So, cows were domesticated long before, Yaks.

Originally Posted by zababa

So why are Solanaceaes lore friendly (tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco, etc), but Camelids (which includes camels and ) are not?

Also, this IS a fantasy setting. Trust me, I have a fit enough when I see orangish copper deposits (they should be green) but I accept it as not only is this fiction, but also a game.

There are no tomatoes, only potatoes and tobacco.
The only example of the Old World wilderness in MD were plants, not animals. A llama COULD exist, and the yak as well. However, a llama, being a New World Camelid, it is HIGHLY unlikely to exist. A yak, I'd say is possible. However the yak, or if existing, the llama, has no place in Western Middle-earth (the area where everything takes place).

Mountain goats are pretty big.

As are Big Horn Sheep.

Originally Posted by Thaimli

There are no tomatoes, only potatoes and tobacco.
The only example of the Old World wilderness in MD were plants, not animals. A llama COULD exist, and the yak as well. However, a llama, being a New World Camelid, it is HIGHLY unlikely to exist. A yak, I'd say is possible. However the yak, or if existing, the llama, has no place in Western Middle-earth (the area where everything takes place).

Are you suggesting potatoes and tobacco migrate!? Tolkien did include tomatoes but changed it later. I don't think you can reasonably argue that something is unrealistic in that, a) lots of what Turbine did is not in the books, b) the Tolkien family has a say-so if something does not fit, c) "goats" may actually be any kind of fantastic animal simply being called a "goat" for simplicity sake (akin to the potato arguments), and d) "Western" Middle Earth may apply to men and hobbits as being European, but the Dwarves were different (more Jewish then Norse) and thus from their origin they have spread out across the world keeping their unique culture, which may include keeping and rearing of creatures native to far off lands, and triple so for the elves. The fact that these creatures are not used by non-dwarves simply enforces your point of the European setting.

But all in all, tis just a game and far from reality.

Originally Posted by zababa

Are you suggesting potatoes and tobacco migrate!? Tolkien did include tomatoes but changed it later. I don't think you can reasonably argue that something is unrealistic in that, a) lots of what Turbine did is not in the books, b) the Tolkien family has a say-so if something does not fit, c) "goats" may actually be any kind of fantastic animal simply being called a "goat" for simplicity sake (akin to the potato arguments), and d) "Western" Middle Earth may apply to men and hobbits as being European, but the Dwarves were different (more Jewish then Norse) and thus from their origin they have spread out across the world keeping their unique culture, which may include keeping and rearing of creatures native to far off lands, and triple so for the elves. The fact that these creatures are not used by non-dwarves simply enforces your point of the European setting.

But all in all, tis just a game and far from reality.

Plants migrating? Indirectly, I just might be.
Plants migrating is easier than animals migrating by far. You just need some sort transportation. Like an animal, to migrate them. It's called an introduced species.
An example of one would be the Water Fern.
Fair enough, this is indeed a fantasy setting. However, Tolkien stayed mostly true to Old World Flora and Fauna. So I am admitting that the Yak MAY exist, however, not in the Grey, Blue, White, Ash, and Misty Mountains, or the Iron Hills. As that area between the Eastern end of the Sea of Rhûn, to the edge of the Blue Mountains, to the Northernmost Iron Hills, to the southernmost Gondor. In that land, it is all European resembling. The Llama is a much different story. The Llama only exists in the Americas. The Americas do not actually exist in Middle-earth yet, it is implied it was made later.
Therefore, it would be highly unlikely for the existence of the Llama. But it would actually be a creature possibely created much later by Eru. Sure, both creatures are quite possible, yet what I am saying, it is extremely unlikely for a Llama to exist.

Anyways, back to dwarves riding Goats. Lydiaele, nice pictures. I believe someone said that it was almost never recorded for someone to ride a goat, save in mythology. So it is unlikely for dwarves to go to the trouble of wanting to tame the creatures. They would seem them as meat and fur, instead. Since they are so hardy, and have much endurance, I would seem them just running/walking on foot, until they started getting into less rough terrain. Then, if they choose to, they would mount their pony.

Honestly, the only reason Turbine put in Goats is to give players a mount to use in Moria, as ponies and horses would never do it.

Would you guys rather walk around everywhere with no stables?

P.S. As for the lore accuracy, I don't recall there being mention of them, although Moria(and Dwarves in general) were never exactly covered in great detail, so I suppose it could be possible.

You do realize Tolkien Enterprises (or whatever it's called now, not sure if that's still the name) has a say-so in what goes into this game, lore-wise? If it was a real problem with the lore, they wouldn't exist in the game. TE allowed it, so it's perfectly viable. And just like those pictures of mountain goats and big horn sheep... they're BIG. And it's a fantasy setting, use your imagination. Why do people get so literal and "realistic" in their arguments about a fantasy world? That's just silly, almost stupid, and defeats the purpose of fantasy. Treat it as fantasy, argue about it in terms of fantasy, not in the terms of the real world. They aren't comparable, and shouldn't be.

And again, TE has a say-so. If it doesn't fit the lore, it won't make it into the game. They've taken away the rights from other companies to make LotR games because of going too far beyond the lore. They'd do it here if the need arose. It's not just about Turbine, TE has a big part in the lore of these games.

I really find the idea that Khazad Dum, at the height of its power was not teaming with ponies and mules, absurd. I mean think about it. Khazad Dum wasn't just a series of rude caves and crevices. It was the greatest city of the Dwarves to have ever existed, with vast halls and smooth floors. And in the delvings they used mine cars for the industrial work, but elsewhere there is no reason a mule could not serve to porter the loads for trade. I propose that any where in Khazad Dum (before its fall) that an unusually large goat could navigate, a mule could navigate just as well. The only reason that Bill the Pony didn't go into the mines was because the roads had become treacherous and suffered from disuse and ruin, and I shouldn't think a goat of any size would fair much better, especially laden with a rider and supplies. In short, this was just a ploy by turbine to add more variety to the games mounts. But I'm one of those scathing Tolkien purists who feels that turbine is more concerned with lining their pockets that preserving the integrity of the lore.

Lol at this thread and the 'experts' frequenting it. Do llamas and yaks exist in Middle-Earth? Of course they do! Tolkien clearly states it in The Unfinished Silmarillion Tales of the Unexpected Journey, Appendix K 3.15, footnote 7. Of course this would only be in the 1955 print of said book.

Long story short, the answer would be A) According to Tolkien's lore specifically, no. B) According to Turbine's lore, yes.

Originally Posted by kalimarr

Lol at this thread and the 'experts' frequenting it. Do and exist in Middle-Earth? Of course they do! Tolkien clearly states it in The Unfinished Silmarillion Tales of the Unexpected Journey, Appendix K 3.15, footnote 7. Of course this would only be in the 1955 print of said book.

Is that so?
Do the directly say 'llamas and yaks'?
And one print? Hm. Then you'd think perhaps it was a type. Yes? And if it wasn't a typo then Tolkien probably would of said something.

Originally Posted by Kragald

You know, topics such as these just make me feel that someone, SOMEONE at all, should just expand upon the mythos of Middle-Earth Dwarves.

Seriously, the Elves and Humans have DETAILED histories, languages, and everything else.

Someone did already (but not expanding from Middle-Earth but with the same atmosphere). Markus Heitz has written 4 books titled "The Dwarves"

In there the dwarves don't like to ride horses because they wanna stay with their feet in contact with the ground. Earth is their element. There were only two dwarves in those books that hadn't issues with horse driving. The others only did it a few times to get somewhere faster but avoided it when possible. They also disliked water. (mainly because they hate getting a wet suit and wet beard.

Just because goats weren't mounts in lore, doesn't mean they weren't. I assume there are many things in lore we don't know about. Just because no one in the stories is mentioned to have pooped, does not mean they didn't. It is risky to assume if certain things existed however, since it may not be what Tolkien wanted in the first place, and it would break the integrity of his works. The best you can do if you were to "break" lore is to see if whatever it is you're adding is plausible in the world it's in.

I always saw "lore break" as something that changes elements of the lore, and not necessarily elements added to it. That's because changing what existed is changing fact. Adding things are products of assumption, which may break what Tolkien envisioned, or point out what he did, but left out.

We may never know.

Originally Posted by Brunwick

Someone did already (but not expanding from Middle-Earth but with the same atmosphere). Markus Heitz has written 4 books titled "The Dwarves"

In there the dwarves don't like to ride horses because they wanna stay with their feet in contact with the ground. Earth is their element. There were only two dwarves in those books that hadn't issues with horse driving. The others only did it a few times to get somewhere faster but avoided it when possible. They also disliked water. (mainly because they hate getting a wet suit and wet beard.

Good books. IIRC, in the beginning of The Dwarves, wasn't the Lords of all the folk (Save one, I forget the name) go to the Stronghold in the South, and all rode on ponies?
And those dwarves are certainly not like Middle-earth ones. Those have nasty tempers, brew ale, very forward with hate of Elves. One of the dwarves, Boindil(?) was pretty much a Token Berserker Dwarf.
But is not the place for a detailed analysis. Still good books though, no doubt.

Originally Posted by superhero088

Just because goats weren't mounts in lore, doesn't mean they weren't. I assume there are many things in lore we don't know about. Just because no one in the stories is mentioned to have pooped, does not mean they didn't. It is risky to assume if certain things existed however, since it may not be what Tolkien wanted in the first place, and it would break the integrity of his works. The best you can do if you were to "break" lore is to see if whatever it is you're adding is plausible in the world it's in.

I always saw "lore break" as something that changes elements of the lore, and not necessarily elements added to it. That's because changing what existed is changing fact. Adding things are products of assumption, which may break what Tolkien envisioned, or point out what he did, but left out.

We may never know.

We share nearly the same views. However, I also see lore-breaking as when someone adds new lore, that is not plausible.
Like people riding Llamas. Which is ridiculous. Not only could a dwarf not ride one, since it's weak spine, but that would include pretty much every race except small women and children of the Race of Men. And in this setting, women and children stay at home, which eliminates the chance of them even buying and then using such an animal.

Originally Posted by Thaimli

We share nearly the same views. However, I also see lore-breaking as when someone adds new lore, that is not plausible.
Like people riding Llamas. Which is ridiculous. Not only could a dwarf not ride one, since it's weak spine, but that would include pretty much every race except small women and children of the Race of Men. And in this setting, women and children stay at home, which eliminates the chance of them even buying and then using such an animal.

one does not need to sit on the spine of an animal in order to ride it.

if the animal is large enough to carry a load one can in many cases sit on its shoulders, much like how the russian/mongolian reindeer herders ride theirs.

Originally Posted by superhero088

Just because goats weren't mounts in lore, doesn't mean they weren't. I assume there are many things in lore we don't know about. Just because no one in the stories is mentioned to have pooped, does not mean they didn't. It is risky to assume if certain things existed however, since it may not be what Tolkien wanted in the first place, and it would break the integrity of his works. The best you can do if you were to "break" lore is to see if whatever it is you're adding is plausible in the world it's in.

Adding giant goats was out of keeping because it's treating Middle-earth as generic fantasy rather than what it is: a fantasy version of our own world, with the intent of giving it something of the feel of old Northern European tales; there should no more be giant goats in LOTR than there should be in Beowulf, for example, a tale which has a similar combination of real-world underpinnings with fantasy elements on top.

We may never know.

We know all right, because the only time we see Dwarves riding anything, they're riding ponies. Given the generally light-hearted, fairy-tale atmosphere of The Hobbit, if Tolkien had imagined Dwarves riding anything quirky then he'd have put that in himself, right there. I think that's sufficiently indicative of his style.

Originally Posted by Bombadil411

Well, did they?

+rep for starting a migrating coconut thread.

Answer is no, goats are an entertaining Turbine created travel alternative.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/rzcLQRXW6B0