Thread: Weaver issues

I've posted this to the Weaver changes thread, but I'm also starting a separate thread to see what other players think of this feedback.

Here are some suggestions from a long time Weaver. However, I'm coming back from a long break so please forgive me if a bit of the information is out of date. I typically play in small to medium sized groups and occasionally play in large raids. I almost never 1v1.

Issues:

1. Infamy gain
There have historically been major issues with debuffs, heals, pet and dot damage not contributing correctly to damage calculation used to derive infamy. Also, some members of a group who are PVEing or AFK at a far distant location reducing infamy for players that are PVPing in the same group is still annoying in the extreme. Also, there are huge known issues with gold starring and multiple group competing for the same kill. Either rework infamy calculations (lots of work) or add a minimum infamy per kill (say 15ish).

2. (removed because the information was incorrect).

3. CC Immunity abilities
The loremaster ability that allows them and 2 or 3 of their closest friends to be completely immune to CC in the moors can (and very often does) almost completely shuts down Weaver utility in small groups and raids. Either, make this ability self-only in the moors; dramatically increase the timeout for this ability in the moors; give Creep side something similar; or give Weavers the ability to remove this buff. No class should be able to completely shut down another class like this (unless their is parity and even then it is undesirable).

4. Poison removing abilities
The hunter ability to remove 3 poisons at a time with no cooldown makes a joke of already low Weaver DPS. Add a 10 - 20 sec cooldown for this ability in the moors or make more weaver abilities incurable.

5. DPS
I really think that Weaver's should have an ability that does significant damage on a medium to long cooldown (not nearly as much as VT but something that is non-trivial). It must not be a dot or if it is a dot it must not be removable by any means. Every Freep class can do 1.5k crits on me and some do 1.5-5k crits on me very quickly and commonly. The biggest crit I've ever had on an ability is 700 and that only happens *extremely* rarely.

6. Damage type
Weaver's are tired of doing common damage. Please add some way to change damage to shadow or acid. This would somewhat help address our DPS issues.

7. Tactical damage
Freep side tactical damage is way out of balance in the moors particularly runemasters but others as well. Please consider a significant increase to Creep-side tactical mitigations and tactical crit resistance.

8. Feast
The description for this ability is a an insult. No spider in the history if the game has ever asked for an ability that gives them power (except for maybe a couple of years ago when loremaster power drain was in vogue). The fact that it resets abilities is very nice though and should be better documented. I'd suggest changing it to a 950-1k morale boost or or a 450-500 morale and power boost as well as the suggested decrease to cooldown. Possibly changing the power increase to a damage increase buff might be better instead.

9. Necrosis
The changes in this ability don't really sound significant enough. Weaver have tons of debuffs already, there is not enough time in the day to cast them all. The increase to DPS with pets is somewhat nice, but given how trivially easy it is with pots, Hunters and item abilities to remove poisons, this sounds like it will be less of a benefit than intended.

10. Safe-fall
I vote along with others on this thread for adding some sort of safe-fall ability to Weavers. Actually, what Weavers really want is the ability to climb vertical surfaces, but this is probably too difficult to implement.

11. CC disparity between Freeps and Creeps (especially AoE)
Freeps have *much* more AoE cc ability than Creeps. I'd suggest making the AoE root power for Weavers at a lower rank and consider adding more AoE CC abilities to Weavers and other Creep classes.

12. Toxin
This ability has been nerfed into complete uselessness except as an ability to pop bergs out of stealth. The power drain needs to be increased significantly or possibly keep the magnitude the same but don't have the amount drained be mitigated.

13. Dwarf tracking
Come on, really?

1. A minimum renown/infamy per kill cannot work. A reaver or a champ could just charge/sprint into a raid, use a few aoes, and charge/sprint back out with no danger to themselves. then they could wait and rake in the renown.

2. Freeps get nothing for ranking up, it makes no difference if you're fighting a rank 14 freep or a rank 1 freep (other then the level of experience.) on the other hand, for a creep, a rank 14 creep is infinetely harder then a rank 1 to kill.

3. Lore-master stun immunity is just that, stun immunity. it does not protect against roots. It effectively neutralises two of your skills as a weaver (your mez and your cj, latent poison won't do much anyway) considering one of those skills is on a five minute cooldown, i would hardly call that the ability to shut down weavers.

4. Just because Hunters can doesn't mean they do, if a Hunter is removing poison in the moors, he's not going for much else. Tainted kiss is so short of a cooldown he will basically be spamming it without time to do anything else even against just one weaver.

5. Take off the creep goggles. Weavers have good enough dps in combination with their ability to debuff and cc, they don't need the burst dps a skill like vital target would give them. The only way it would work is if it was some sort of on defeat response.

6. No arguments there (minus the fact that some of the skills are already acid).

7. Kelsen said it would be addressed by zombie columbus in the upcoming runekeeper blog (if it gets here before isengard, fingers crossed)

8. Weavers already get their racial on defeat response heal at rank 9. Giving Weavers two skills that are pretty much the same thing is a waste. He is already decreasing the cooldown..did you read the weaver blog..?

9. This looks like just a complaint, no suggestion so not going to bother saying anything more.

10. There is no way Turbine is going to copy the Burglar skill and give it to Weavers.

11. The AoE root for the weaver is at rank 9 already..? There is also no reason to give more AoE cc short of short stuns to any other creep classes. The weaver is the creep cc class, it should get any new cc skills.

12. Toxin is incredibly useful during any even remotely long raid fight, just find a healer and hit him with it repeatedly. Far better then the Lore-master power drain. Multiple applications of toxins? Are you sure you play a Weaver? Toxin doesn't stack.

Originally Posted by Fasin

1. A minimum renown/infamy per kill cannot work. A reaver or a champ could just charge/sprint into a raid, use a few aoes, and charge/sprint back out with no danger to themselves. then they could wait and rake in the renown.

A minimum infamy scheme can work quite well and definitely much better than the current scheme. I'd rather have a few people who AoE tag get some unintended infamy than everyone get very tiny bits except in rare situation (1v1 and group v group where there is noboby out of group attacking). Also, AoE taggers will only get infamy if the targets die, and the best way to do that is to fully help kill all the targets. The scheme rewards doing the right thing.

Originally Posted by Fasin

2. Freeps get nothing for ranking up, it makes no difference if you're fighting a rank 14 freep or a rank 1 freep (other then the level of experience.) on the other hand, for a creep, a rank 14 creep is infinitely harder then a rank 1 to kill.

This is part of the point, ranking creep side is glacially slow and it is unfairly slower than ranking Freep side.

Originally Posted by Fasin

3. Lore-master stun immunity is just that, stun immunity. it does not protect against roots. It effectively neutralises two of your skills as a weaver (your mez and your cj, latent poison won't do much anyway) considering one of those skills is on a five minute cooldown, i would hardly call that the ability to shut down weavers.

Roots are by far and away the less useful crowd control.

Originally Posted by Fasin

5. Take off the creep goggles. Weavers have good enough dps in combination with their ability to debuff and cc, they don't need the burst dps a skill like vital target would give them. The only way it would work is if it was some sort of on defeat response.

I'm not asking for an extreme damage attack like VT but a medium damage attack that will allow us to occasionally crit for a reasonable amount.

Originally Posted by Fasin

8. Weavers already get their racial on defeat response heal at rank 9. Giving Weavers two skills that are pretty much the same thing is a waste. He is already decreasing the cooldown..did you read the weaver blog..?

I mostly want the tool tip fixed and the power gain to be replaced by something useful. Power gain is *entirely* useless to a weaver. Having a high ranking skill have one of it's major benefits be entirely useless is not a good thing.

Originally Posted by Fasin

10. There is no way Turbine is going to copy the Burglar skill and give it to Weavers.

That's fine with me, I'd much rather be able to scale vertical surfaces like weavers have been requesting for years.

Originally Posted by Fasin

12. Toxin is incredibly useful during any even remotely long raid fight, just find a healer and hit him with it repeatedly. Far better then the Lore-master power drain. Multiple applications of toxins? Are you sure you play a Weaver? Toxin doesn't stack.

Most raid fights are stand-offs until one side or the other pushes and one side gets rolled very quickly. Toxin has a tiny benefit for the stand-off portion and absolutely no benefit with the rolling. Mostly the critical targets are so far in the back during the stand-off portion that you won't have it on them often enough to make any noticeable difference.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

1. Infamy gain
There have historically been major issues with debuffs, heals, pet and dot damage not contributing correctly to damage calculation used to derive infamy. Also, some members of a group who are PVEing or AFK at a far distant location reducing infamy for players that are PVPing in the same group is still annoying in the extreme. Also, there are huge known issues with gold starring and multiple group competing for the same kill. Either rework infamy calculations (lots of work) or add a minimum infamy per kill (say 15ish).

They need to increase the range for inf/renown gain. Sad that reavers run away with Dying Rage etc.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

2. Infamy gain vs Renown gain
There has been a consistent, historic imbalance with each Freep earning roughly twice the renown as a Creep. This is probably mostly due to imbalance of Freep abilities vs. Creep abilities. I'd recommend adding a factor that is applied to infamy gain that addresses this imbalance (ie Creeps would get about twice the infamy for a kill than a Freep would get renown for the same kill). The factor should be rebalanced periodically based on historical data. Since Freeps are generally tougher than Creeps, Creeps should get more infamy when they do manage to kill one...

What? Disagree.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

3. CC Immunity abilities
The loremaster ability that allows them and 2 or 3 of their closest friends to be completely immune to CC in the moors can (and very often does) almost completely shuts down Weaver utility in small groups and raids. Either, make this ability self-only in the moors; dramatically increase the timeout for this ability in the moors; give Creep side something similar; or give Weavers the ability to remove this buff. No class should be able to completely shut down another class like this (unless their is parity and even then it is undesirable).

Some loremasters skills indeed have no place in PVP. Wind Lore & Antistun bugs me the most. The ranged reduction can completely disable my weaver. It's AOE skill and fairly low CD. Yes I can use Purple Potion, which will most likely remove Burning Embers dot... Make antistun usable only on LoreMaster. Agree with that.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

4. Poison removing abilities
The hunter ability to remove 3 poisons at a time with no cooldown makes a joke of already low Weaver DPS. Add a 1 min cooldown for this ability in the moors or make more weaver abilities undispellable.

I'd raise the cooldown to 5-10s, so they can't spam it. Perhaps make more of our skills uncurable. That's it.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

5. DPS
I really think that Weaver's should have an ability that does significant damage on a medium to long cooldown (not nearly as much as VT but something that is non-trivial). It must not be a dot or if it is a dot it must not be removable by any means. Every Freep class can do 1.5k crits on me and some do 1.5-5k crits on me very quickly and commonly. The biggest crit I've ever had on an ability is 700 and that only happens *extremely* rarely.

We don't need that much of increase. All we need is slight boost to Lethal Kiss. Shadow damage instead of commond and better crit rating and crit magnitude, so we could devastate for 1k.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

6. Damage type
Weaver's are tired of doing common damage. Please add some way to change damage to shadow or acid. This would somewhat help address our DPS issues.

As I said above, I'd only boost lethal kiss this way. PA/TK is fine.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

8. Feast
The description for this ability is a an insult. No spider in the history if the game has ever asked for an ability that gives them power (except for maybe a couple of years ago when loremaster power drain was in vogue). The fact that it resets abilities is very nice though and should be better documented. I'd suggest changing it to a 950-1k morale boost or or a 450-500 morale and power boost as well as the suggested decrease to cooldown. Possibly changing the power increase to a damage increase buff might be better instead

.

It's useless skill that require trait. Even with the "boost" in ROI it will still remain #### and I'll probably never slot it.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

9. Necrosis
The changes in this ability don't really sound significant enough. Weaver have tons of debuffs already, there is not enough time in the day to cast them all. The increase to DPS with pets is somewhat nice, but given how trivially easy it is with pots, Hunters and item abilities to remove poisons, this sounds like it will be less of a benefit than intended.

.

It's being nicely boosted in RoI. No complains on zthis one.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

10. Safe-fall
I vote along with others on this thread for adding some sort of safe-fall ability to Weavers.

Let me climb walls. I don't need safefall. Kkthxbb

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

12. Toxin
This ability has been nerfed into complete uselessness except as an ability to pop bergs out of stealth. The power drain needs to be increased significantly.

Wut? It's epic powerdrain. But it should go thru the mitigation, because it acts like "common" damage so instead of the full drain it does like 80 per tick...

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

13. Dwarf tracking
Come on, really?

Someone had to take the bullet for the team and frankly I don't even care. Less $$$ for me to spend/farm...

2. Infamy gain vs Renown gain
There has been a consistent, historic imbalance with each Freep earning roughly twice the renown as a Creep. This is probably mostly due to imbalance of Freep abilities vs. Creep abilities. I'd recommend adding a factor that is applied to infamy gain that addresses this imbalance (ie Creeps would get about twice the infamy for a kill than a Freep would get renown for the same kill). The factor should be rebalanced periodically based on historical data. Since Freeps are generally tougher than Creeps, Creeps should get more infamy when they do manage to kill one...

Originally Posted by Faileon

What? Disagree.

Actually I misread the charts on that one, please ignore.
See: http://dailystats.theblackappendage....al-pvmp-trends
I've updated the original post to remove that item.

Thanks for the feedback Faileon, it was very well informed.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

Thanks for the feedback Faileon, it was very well informed.

No problem. Needed to kill time in work, even though I know it's just talking against wall. Devs won't actually read it/takes player feedback seriously for pvp. But I like to gibber jabber

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

A minimum infamy scheme can work quite well and definitely much better than the current scheme. I'd rather have a few people who AoE tag get some unintended infamy than everyone get very tiny bits except in rare situation (1v1 and group v group where there is noboby out of group attacking). Also, AoE taggers will only get infamy if the targets die, and the best way to do that is to fully help kill all the targets. The scheme rewards doing the right thing.

Turbine won't do it and it won't work.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

This is part of the point, ranking creep side is glacially slow and it is unfairly slower than ranking Freep side.

That has to do with freeps being more powerful then creeps. just even the two sides out a little bit (hopefully coming with isengard).

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

Roots are by far and away the less useful crowd control.

I only mentioned roots because you said LMs give complete immunity to all CC.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

I'm not asking for an extreme damage attack like VT but a medium damage attack that will allow us to occasionally crit for a reasonable amount.

i'm all for that. just make it a high power cost, highish rank requirement. might even make feast useful.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

I mostly want the tool tip fixed and the power gain to be replaced by something useful. Power gain is *entirely* useless to a weaver. Having a high ranking skill have one of it's major benefits be entirely useless is not a good thing.

No arguments there, but not really sure what they can do with that other then introduce high power cost skills to make it useful (nerf).

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

That's fine with me, I'd much rather be able to scale vertical surfaces like weavers have been requesting for years.

That will never happen. The amount of work that would take would be horrendous.

Not to mention the fact that at least you can follow a burglar if he jumps off a cliff, even if you're slower. If a weaver can climb up a cliff, they could stop and map out at the top and you couldn't do anything. (one of a million reasons why it can't work.)

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

Most raid fights are stand-offs until one side or the other pushes and one side gets rolled very quickly. Toxin has a tiny benefit for the stand-off portion and absolutely no benefit with the rolling. Mostly the critical targets are so far in the back during the stand-off portion that you won't have it on them often enough to make any noticeable difference.

Just make it unnafected by mitigations, it's already good enough.

Originally Posted by Dazzer01

Actually I misread the charts on that one, please ignore.
See: http://dailystats.theblackappendage....al-pvmp-trends
I've updated the original post to remove that item.

Thanks for the feedback Faileon, it was very well informed.

I actually think that you read the chart correctly the first time and incorrectly the second. If the blue is below .5, then freeps got more renown. If the blue is above .5, then creeps got more inf. As can clearly be seen, the blue is below .5 a lot more than it is above which indicates that freeps have been consistently earning more renown than creeps do infamy. Not saying I agree with your idea, just wanted to point that out.

Originally Posted by Samus1111111

I actually think that you read the chart correctly the first time and incorrectly the second. If the blue is below .5, then freeps got more renown. If the blue is above .5, then creeps got more inf. As can clearly be seen, the blue is below .5 a lot more than it is above which indicates that freeps have been consistently earning more renown than creeps do infamy. Not saying I agree with your idea, just wanted to point that out.

When I originally looked at the graph I assumed that 1:1 ratio of infamy/renown would make 1 parity on the graph. Thus when I looked at the graph it seemed to me that creeps where getting less than half the infamy than freeps where getting renown which seemed outrageous and in need of correction. However, the graph is scaled to have .5 be parity. Having creeps on average get about 20% less infamy than freeps get renown is only moderately bad. A correction factor for this would be nice but it isn't as big a deal as I had originally thought. I'm willing to cope with the situation as is.