Thread: Where exactly will the dragon come in?

Originally Posted by Berephon

Actually, if you look closely, especially at the face, you will see a very different inspiration (though perhaps you aren't familiar with it....)

The beard? It does give of a rather familiar vibe, but I cannot place it. Hmm...

Originally Posted by Berephon

This part is solidly incorrect.

With the Welsh naming, I would guess Enedwaith?

Berephon once i saw you online, i logged in to ask a quick questio :P

Whats the reason of the dragon being so big? i mean isnt that unrealistic?(and maybe lore-breaking as well) i am talking about the size only of the dragon

Originally Posted by Dankanthegood

Berephon once i saw you online, i logged in to ask a quick questio :P

Whats the reason of the dragon being so big? i mean isnt that unrealistic?(and maybe lore-breaking as well) i am talking about the size only of the dragon

Not in the least...it is frankly more consistent with dragons as they appear in the works of Tolkien (and I would say probably smaller still than Smaug.) Having seen Draigoch in action, he fits just about where he needs to.

Originally Posted by Berephon

This part is solidly incorrect.

Then this german newsite missinterpreteded something.

There had better be a really epic Housing Trophy that drops from the defeat of this dragon.


Something not identical to Thorog's skull.



*Wink wink, Nudge Nudge*

Originally Posted by Berephon

Actually, if you look closely, especially at the face, you will see a very different inspiration (though perhaps you aren't familiar with it....)

Well enlighten me please! It does seem familiar but I just dont get it.

Originally Posted by Berephon

Not in the least...it is frankly more consistent with dragons as they appear in the works of Tolkien (and I would say probably smaller still than Smaug.) Having seen Draigoch in action, he fits just about where he needs to.

A wingspan of around 350 feet seems rather huge to me (just to give a comparison Thorondor had a wingspan of thirty fathoms which is around 180 feet), but I guess I'll make up my mind when it is in-game.

So is it a male or female dragon? I can't tell because of the beard.

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

To me this seems a bit over the top ( I know it is concept art), is it just me, or is someone else seeing this asian dragon inspiration?

This concept art reminded me so much of the print of a Ciruelo painting hanging on my walll that I think they got him to do the concept art:

Originally Posted by Berephon

Not in the least...it is frankly more consistent with dragons as they appear in the works of Tolkien (and I would say probably smaller still than Smaug.) Having seen Draigoch in action, he fits just about where he needs to.

hey Berephon, do ya think we could get that concept art of Draigoch wallpapered-ized?

puuhhhleeeease?

Originally Posted by Ironcrown

I don't believe Shelob was working with anyone, she was just there and provided free border guard service.

Agreed. Shelob worked for Shelob. She was there, in that cave, before Sauron and before Barad-dur. Her among her brood were the spiders of Mirkwood. She herself was the last of Ungoliant's brood. Ungoliant is thought to have been either a fallen Ainu, or a corrupted Maia. Which probably makes Shelob somewhere equivalent to a Balrog, or even Sauron.

Originally Posted by Arbalister

Agreed. Shelob worked for Shelob. She was there, in that cave, before Sauron and before Barad-dur. Her among her brood were the spiders of Mirkwood. She herself was the last of Ungoliant's brood. Ungoliant is thought to have been either a fallen Ainu, or a corrupted Maia. Which probably makes Shelob somewhere equivalent to a Balrog, or even Sauron.

No idea where one would get the idea that Ungoliant was Mair of the Ainur race, but that would not be correct. Nothing in the lore or from Tolkien's writings even remotely suggest such. All that is said of her origins is that she is from before the world. All else is just speculation. I do wish Tolkien had been a bit clearer on some of his writing, though he did tend to be a bit expansive in detail on other parts.

Originally Posted by Hellsbane

All that is said of her origins is that she is from before the world. All else is just speculation.

Yes. And what was there, before the world? :-) Pretty sure that all thats mentioned in Ainur and Eru, unless there is some evidence of random "evil spirits" from the Void...

Granted, I haven't read all of Tolkien's letters, or more then a few of the Histories, but I'm unaware of any such evidence...and the "canon" that Eru created ... well, everything, and certainly everything with Life ... would sort of mean that if Ungoliant existed before or even *at* the creation of Arda, then Eru created her. While that might not make her Ainu...its probably equivalent.

Going back to the OP:

Originally Posted by pteranadon

Where exactly will the dragon come in?

Anywhere it wants to.

Your usual point of entry into the dragon is the mouth.

Don't ask me where your point of exit is. You really don't want to know.

Originally Posted by Amagaim

Going back to the OP:


Anywhere it wants to.

Your usual point of entry into the dragon is the mouth.

Don't ask me where your point of exit is. You really don't want to know.

LOL, I've been resisting the temptation to give that sort of an answer for days now. :-p

My guess is that the dragon will have something to do with one of the legends contained in the bookshelves of Nar's Peak. My only question is can I go back to Moria and grab that axe I had to run all over the place and solve all those puzzles to find?

Originally Posted by Arbalister

Yes. And what was there, before the world? :-) Pretty sure that all thats mentioned in Ainur and Eru, unless there is some evidence of random "evil spirits" from the Void...

If she came before the world then the only logical conclusion is she is part of the Ainur. However it doesn't actually state she came before the creation of Ea, merely that she 'descended from the darkness surrounding Arda when Melkor first looked in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe'. Although there are earlier versions to this, none of them state she came before the creation of Ea.

On the other hand she is a spirit in spider form and the only things we know that can do that are the Ainur.

But to counter that it does say that 'even the Valar knew not whence she came' in BoLT. If she were one of the Ainur you'd think the Valar would know.

Also don't forget that Ungoliant had offspring, something Tolkien later decides was a no no for Ainur, unless they bred with an earthly creature (such as the case with Thingol and Melian).

Ultimately I think the only origin that fits is Ungoliant being one of the Ainur which seemed to number in the hundreds at least as Melkor had a host of lesser spirits under his sway, particularly in the early days, and she later bred with some rather large spiders when she made it into Middle-earth after the slaying of the Trees.

Originally Posted by Arbalister

LOL, I've been resisting the temptation to give that sort of an answer for days now. :-p

Yeah. I don't resist temptation very well. Especially when it comes to being a smartaleck.

Just ask my ex-wife.

If there were indeed dragons still in existence, why did none of them rear their heads when the whole of Middle Earth was going to war?

I understand that Sauron may not have had influence over them (or perhaps he did, I know not), but surely they would have wanted to wreak revenge on the elves in paticular; especially when they were arguably at one of their weakest points ever? Yes, some like Smaug were content to just stay all loved up with their treasures, but some must have remained that were more warlike?

Originally Posted by Arandlas

If there were indeed dragons still in existence, why did none of them rear their heads when the whole of Middle Earth was going to war?

I understand that Sauron may not have had influence over them (or perhaps he did, I know not), but surely they would have wanted to wreak revenge on the elves in paticular; especially when they were arguably at one of their weakest points ever? Yes, some like Smaug were content to just stay all loved up with their treasures, but some must have remained that were more warlike?

I don't see why. The only time after the First Age we see the dragons "going to war" was towards the end of the Third Age. They came out of the Northern Wastes of Forodwaith and attacked the dwarves settled in the Grey Mountains, who had moved there after the Durin's Bane awakening debacle. The dragons succeeded in driving the dwarves out who in turn fled to their halls in Erebor and the Iron Hills, as is told in The Hobbit. It seems the dragons were primarily interested in ownership of the dwarven halls. Smaug, as we know, did the same to Erebor a couple of centuries later.

In short, they weren't driven by some world-domination lust, they were just after their own share of plunder to lay about on.

Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath

In short, they weren't driven by some world-domination lust, they were just after their own share of plunder to lay about on.

So essentially dragons have become progressively more lazy since the First Age? Content to sit around at home all the time rather than doing their creator's successor's bidding

Also that raises the question of why did this newly-imagined dragon not wish to take Orthanc? Seems a pretty home to be sure and I bet Saruman had quite a few pretty trinkets... unless he is situated nowhere near Isengard.

Originally Posted by Arandlas

So essentially dragons have become progressively more lazy since the First Age? Content to sit around at home all the time rather than doing their creator's successor's bidding

Much like the orcs, who weren't quite so hell bent on destruction when there were no 'big bosses' around.

Originally Posted by Arandlas

Also that raises the question of why did this newly-imagined dragon not wish to take Orthanc? Seems a pretty home to be sure and I bet Saruman had quite a few pretty trinkets... unless he is situated nowhere near Isengard.

Isengard doesn't seem the right home for a dragon. Whenever we hear about them elsewhere they are in halls delved by others (Angband, Nargothrond, Erebor, Grey Mountains etc). If this dragon has a wingspan of 350 feet and a body length not that much less than that then he wouldn't nearly fit in Orthanc.

maybe that's how we have to defeat saruman and the dragon at the same time, just run to isengard, to the top while the dragons follows us, we jump down, dragon stuck in tower, saruman lost his fortress

Piece of cake

Originally Posted by Arbalister

Yes. And what was there, before the world? :-) Pretty sure that all thats mentioned in Ainur and Eru, unless there is some evidence of random "evil spirits" from the Void...

Tolkien left Ungoliant as a mystery character, along with Tom Bombadil. There's not much (if any) information about Ungoliant's history and where and how she was born. Only thing we know is that she is an evil spirit, who has taken a form of a giant spider and that she is from "before the world". It has to be this way, because she was clearly evil and nearly all evil creatures were created by Morgoth. She was also something that Morgoth was afraid of, which supports the idea that she was something Morgoth as a former Ainu didn't know or understand.

So idea of random evil spirits from the Void doesn't sound so bad. Only Tolkien would know...

Originally Posted by Elwene

Tolkien left Ungoliant as a mystery character, along with Tom Bombadil. There's not much (if any) information about Ungoliant's history and where and how she was born. Only thing we know is that she is an evil spirit, who has taken a form of a giant spider and that she is from "before the world". It has to be this way, because she was clearly evil and nearly all evil creatures were created by Morgoth. She was also something that Morgoth was afraid of, which supports the idea that she was something Morgoth as a former Ainu didn't know or understand.

So idea of random evil spirits from the Void doesn't sound so bad. Only Tolkien would know...

Yeah. He believed there should always be some mystery left in stories and those characters were his way of ensuring his world would have that mystery.

Edit: Wallpaper available now! http://www.lotro.com/lotro-media/1257

More importantly, can I have that outfit the elf is wearing? Pretty please?

Originally Posted by Murtanion

There had better be a really epic Housing Trophy that drops from the defeat of this dragon.

Something not identical to Thorog's skull.

*Wink wink, Nudge Nudge*

Draigoch's Left Testicl?
The question then would be is it small or large furniture, or does it require a yard?



Something more constructive:

Draigoch is the only boss but, unlike the other lair-raids, you have to get to him first while he threatens you and watches your progress while hindering you on the way to him by means of blocking the way with fire or instant-death zones. (Source)

Originally Posted by SniperCT

Yeah. He believed there should always be some mystery left in stories and those characters were his way of ensuring his world would have that mystery.

Edit: Wallpaper available now! http://www.lotro.com/lotro-media/1257

More importantly, can I have that outfit the elf is wearing? Pretty please?

that is one UGLY dragon!


i love it


quick question: will it be bigger than Thorog? coz mr. T is pretty huge, and i just can't imagine seeing a bigger cousin in-game.... i mean, his trophy skull is like, what, 1:10 scale or something? the real thing is HUGE. and this is bigger???

can't we get an in-game preview/screenshot with a hobbit in-picture to compare?

Originally Posted by Redbeaver

quick question: will it be bigger than Thorog? coz mr. T is pretty huge, and i just can't imagine seeing a bigger cousin in-game.... i mean, his trophy skull is like, what, 1:10 scale or something? the real thing is HUGE. and this is bigger???

can't we get an in-game preview/screenshot with a hobbit in-picture to compare?

I've never actually seen Thorog in Helegrod but I'm assuming it is the same size as it was in Volume 1 book 5 or whatever it was, where we had to fight the Nazgul.
If so I'd hazard a guess and say he had a 120 foot wingspan at maximum, looked smaller than that to me (I would say around 80 foot). This dragon apparently has a wingspan of around 350 feet.