Thread: Where exactly will the dragon come in?

Originally Posted by Lilka

If we only fight his head... oh, I don't know, it just seems a bit underwhelming. Like just fighting a foot.

Hmmm. If we only see his head, I guess that's where his weak spot will be... Maybe we need 24 people so we can form human ladders to get to it. :P

Originally Posted by DestinationLove

The Tolkien quote from above seems to indicate that there weren't any dragons at the time "mature" enough to melt the one ring.

Also, Gandalf isn't omniscient, so everything he believes to be true doesn't necessarily have to be true.

Also, AFAIK, there isn't anything to keep Gandalf from lying to get his way. Gandalf believes that Mount Doom is the best option to destroy the ring, maybe because he thinks it would be impossible to get a dragon to willingly or unwillingly (Would a dragon be unable to sense the evil and power of the ring? Is that part of what tipped Smaug off to Bilbo's presence?) melt the ring. So, instead of mentioning the viability of that option he completely shot it down?

For starters as Berephon said no Dragon would be able to melt the One Ring. Secondly Tolkien often gave us exact information even though it came through one of his characters (he explained it in one of his letters, I could have a look if you really wanted me to). What Gandalf says about the dragons is to be taken as the truth.

Originally Posted by Berephon

Also, as Smaug happens to be one of the Great Worms (dragons) who came down from the North, that most certainly does not imply no wings or fire. We do know that wingless dragons existed, as Glaurung was one, but again there is nothing in lore that implies that either form no longer exists.

As to what this dragon is...you'll just have to wait and see!

As I said in my first post, it isn't clear whether Smaug was the last of the great fire-drakes or merely the last truly great fire-drake. In other words it could mean that Smaug was the last winged fire-breathing dragon or it might just mean he was the last really powerful winged fire-breathing dragon.

Either way surely a wingless fire-breathing (or not) long-worm would have been best? Considering we've already had the other kind, plus it would be interesting to see some new art-work for a new type of dragon.

Originally Posted by Zweiblumen

I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about the name they have chosen for this dragon. Draigoch is loose approximation of 'Y Ddraig Goch', which is Welsh for 'The Red Dragon'. Sounds cool, but when you look at it, naming your big bad 'red dragon' seems a bit ...uninspired.

If it's the only red dragon around … why not?

@Berephon: If I may, what's the status of Thorog and the other one (from I.13.9)? I thought those were two of the great dragons seeing as they are different than any other of their kind. But now comes Draigoch who's about 5 times bigger. Are they the same "species" (Draigoch having a couple more centuries to grow up) or are they not related?

Originally Posted by DestinationLove

Because they are called different things, long-worm vs fire-drake, that seems to me that they are actually different types of beast. So, one of Scatha's brood might be a lot different(e.g. no wings or fire) than a Smaug-like dragon.

Don't get bogged down with the terms, they're all rather loose descriptions. In basic form:


Dragon - all types.

Drake - another term for dragon.

Worm - another term for dragon, but often refering specifically to wingless types.

Uruloki - fire breathing dragons, sometimes excludes winged dragons.

Long-worm - dragons with particularly serpentine bodies.

Cold-worm - dragons that cannot breathe fire (and thus can't fly either, presumably).

Fire-drake - dragons that can breathe fire.

Cold-drake - seemingly the same as cold-worm.


About the only combination that shouldn't be possible is a winged dragon that cannot breathe fire, the former advancement coming later than the fire-breathing ability.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

If it's the only red dragon around … why not?

@Berephon: If I may, what's the status of Thorog and the other one (from I.13.9)? I thought those were two of the great dragons seeing as they are different than any other of their kind. But now comes Draigoch who's about 5 times bigger. Are they the same "species" (Draigoch having a couple more centuries to grow up) or are they not related?

From the number of dragons that are involved in the Sil, they clearly come in many shapes and sizes (including the Great Dragons.) Thorog was certainly one of the Great Dragons, though perhaps at the lower end. The dragon in Forochel probably falls somewhere between Thorog and a drake. It wasn't too impressive.

Draigoch is definitely one of the Great Dragons, somewhere between Smaug and Thorog.

Originally Posted by BIGeyedBUG

While on the face of it this is obviously true, Gandalf certainly seems to be a regular vehicle for the author's omniscience. Offhand, I can't think of any *lore* statement he makes which is ever shown to be wrong. Can you? I'm genuinely curious.

Maybe. Again, can you show some examples? The only ones I can think of are in The Hobbit, where the character Gandalf the Grey hasn't yet attained the dignity of Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim, we might say. Also these lies are made to persons who are uncertain allies or outright enemies, not to a life-long friend trying to make the most dangerous decision of his life...and of many others' lives.

That last bit may be the most important. A lie in those circumstances seems to directly conflict with Gandalf's ethos in LoR. To wit, smaller evils are not justified by larger goods, and the primary actors must be allowed to freely make their own moral decisions

Anyway, what do you think?

Wow, I never figured that anyone would argue that Gandalf is omniscient. Let me see, Bilbo and Frodo had the ring for about 100 years before he determined it was the ring of power. Even then, he needed to test it (by throwing it into the fire) to make the final determination. He is so ignorant about the ring that it takes him 100 years just to IDENTIFY it, and we're supposed to blindly take his word for how it responds to any and all kinds of stress?
Then, Gandalf promises to be back by Bilbo's birthday but for multiple reasons cannot return in time.
Then, he picks the wrong way to get east of the misty mountains.
Then he gets lost (temporarily) in Moria.
Then, he almost dies in Moria.
Then he screws up with the Palantir.

Throughout the books he shows that he is often fallible. How can you argue that he isn't?

My quote from The Hobbit above is when he lies to his friends when they're going on a journey that he unsure they will survive. Its mind-boggling how you try to wash away his lies( the "old Gandalf", uncertain allies) and then proceed to say that Gandalf wouldn't lie because its against his ethos. Yeah, Gandalf he never lies... except when he does.

Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath

For starters as Berephon said no Dragon would be able to melt the One Ring. Secondly Tolkien often gave us exact information even though it came through one of his characters (he explained it in one of his letters, I could have a look if you really wanted me to). What Gandalf says about the dragons is to be taken as the truth

Sorry if I don't take Berephon's word as gospel

I would appreciate the Tolkien info, if you have the time.

While still cautiously optimistic about the new raid, love the concept art you guys posted on Twitter (and Massively and Lorebook...think he's gonna be on bumper stickers and T-shirts by Isengard)

Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath

Don't get bogged down with the terms, they're all rather loose descriptions. In basic form:


Dragon - all types.

Drake - another term for dragon.

Worm - another term for dragon, but often refering specifically to wingless types.

Uruloki - fire breathing dragons, sometimes excludes winged dragons.

Long-worm - dragons with particularly serpentine bodies.

Cold-worm - dragons that cannot breathe fire (and thus can't fly either, presumably).

Fire-drake - dragons that can breathe fire.

Cold-drake - seemingly the same as cold-worm.


About the only combination that shouldn't be possible is a winged dragon that cannot breathe fire, the former advancement coming later than the fire-breathing ability.

Who's getting bogged down with terms?

might 1. b. Used to indicate a possibility or probability that is weaker than may
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=might

Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath

Don't get bogged down with the terms, they're all rather loose descriptions. In basic form:


Dragon - all types.

Drake - another term for dragon.

Worm - another term for dragon, but often refering specifically to wingless types.

Uruloki - fire breathing dragons, sometimes excludes winged dragons.

Long-worm - dragons with particularly serpentine bodies.

Cold-worm - dragons that cannot breathe fire (and thus can't fly either, presumably).

Fire-drake - dragons that can breathe fire.

Cold-drake - seemingly the same as cold-worm.


About the only combination that shouldn't be possible is a winged dragon that cannot breathe fire, the former advancement coming later than the fire-breathing ability.

It is interesting to note, that while there were some different terms that all ultimately meant "dragon", Turbine took each term and created an unique type of mob out of it; Whereas Tolkien may have used "dragon" and "drake" for the same thing, in LOTRO it refers to two entirely different sort of beings. Same deal with "orc" and "goblin", for that matter.

I will add, that I don't find this all that surprising, mind you, seeing as they only had so many lore-defined sort of mobs in the first place; Distinguishing between them in some manner (making orcs and goblins different, as an example) for the sake of variety, I can understand.

Originally Posted by Zweiblumen

If the entrance to the raid is in a region named 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' I'm going to explode.

Actually - the entrance is going to be a Shirriff Box...

Originally Posted by DestinationLove

Sorry if I don't take Berephon's word as gospel

I'm not asking you to, I'm asking you to take the passage he quoted from LotR as gospel:

"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself."

The point of debate was whether there was ever a dragon that could melt the One Ring, I believe? If that wasn't what you were discussing then ignore me.

Originally Posted by DestinationLove

I would appreciate the Tolkien info, if you have the time.

I've had a quick look and can't find the passage I'm refering to primarily because I can't remember which word to search for. I quoted the passage on the EU forums a while ago when discussing something with Radhruin.

Originally Posted by Zweiblumen

Heh. Guess I was right - they DID use the dragon off the Welsh flag as a kicking off point.

Quite similar, I'd say.

Ah well. Can't blame them. Wales does have the single most awesomest flag in the whole universe!

If the entrance to the raid is in a region named 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' I'm going to explode.

Except we would modify it to: Hen Ulad Vu Nhadau. And, no, alas it isn't.

Originally Posted by Kongas

These are the people who put a pirate ship under the Forsaken Inn. If the dragon doesn't come with a pair of wing-mounted M60's I'm going to count that as a triumph for the Lore.

Um....the ship is not under the Forsaken Inn...it is anchored in a cove off the river (the one that the last bridge crosses - forgot the name). Next time you get to the boat look around and you'll see the river and the boat is blocked in by giant rocks.

Originally Posted by Zweiblumen

because let's face it, how many other national flags are in game, engaging in the smashy-smashys with players?

You've got a flag??? Dash clever of you.

I hope this raid is more like the turtle than some long drawn out ordeal that takes a whole night to do with little reward or super massive medallions to grind. I do not do turtle much anymore, but like that idea and think we need another. Of course with the work going into this one I doubt it will be so easy to pug.

Don't get me wrong I do enjoy raiding and although work/school prevents me from doing it as much as I like, I still think raiding content should be made. I just like the idea of something people can do for good rewards that clocks in at less than an hour from invite to loot.

Originally Posted by Berephon

From the number of dragons that are involved in the Sil, they clearly come in many shapes and sizes (including the Great Dragons.) Thorog was certainly one of the Great Dragons, though perhaps at the lower end. The dragon in Forochel probably falls somewhere between Thorog and a drake. It wasn't too impressive.

Draigoch is definitely one of the Great Dragons, somewhere between Smaug and Thorog.

I always interpreted it as an age thing, somehow these dragons are pretty much undying and the older they get the more powerful they are.

I like how Smaug sat centuries on his gigantic pile of loot, and ended up embedding gemstones into his scaley skin =)

Originally Posted by Beorthelion

Um....the ship is not under the Forsaken Inn...it is anchored in a cove off the river (the one that the last bridge crosses - forgot the name). Next time you get to the boat look around and you'll see the river and the boat is blocked in by giant rocks.

And watch out, cuz Sloth and Mama Fratelli are hiding in the shadows just waiting for their chance at the treasure!

Originally Posted by Berephon

Except we would modify it to: Hen Ulad Vu Nhadau. And, no, alas it isn't.

Anyone care to let the rest of us in on this joke? :-) Thanks!

Originally Posted by Zweiblumen

'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' is the Welsh national anthem, translated it's 'Old Land of My Fathers'. 'Ulad Vu' has no Welsh meaning of which I'm aware, so I would assume that it's simply an etymological variant in order to differentiate between the language used in game and actual Welsh. Much in the same way they differentiated Finnish from the language they used in Forochel.

Coincidentally, Finnish and Welsh were respectively Tolkien's base for devising Quenya and Sindarin, the Elvish languages.

Berephon, is there anything written about how you have used language in the game? I'm a bit of a nerd for that sort of thing and always eager to look behind the scenes.

Nothing in-depth...maybe I'll work something up when a little more time presents itself.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

Turbine stated that the Dragon is inside a 24 person instance. This situation is not compatible with ability to solo our way thru the Epic. It is going to be something like Helegrod. Dragons do not work for people. See Helegrod for what happens when you try to bring a dead Dragon under control.

Can Sauron use a Dragon - sure. Sauron made good use of Shelob. It does not appear that Sauron had much control over Shelob.

Well Sauron at the 3rd age didnt have the power to control a dragon.....and Shelob was not controlled by Sauron but was working with him/it.

Originally Posted by Laivindur

Well Sauron at the 3rd age didnt have the power to control a dragon.....and Shelob was not controlled by Sauron but was working with him/it.

I don't believe Shelob was working with anyone, she was just there and provided free border guard service.

Originally Posted by abrahamL

I hope this raid is more like the turtle than some long drawn out ordeal that takes a whole night to do with little reward or super massive medallions to grind. I do not do turtle much anymore, but like that idea and think we need another. Of course with the work going into this one I doubt it will be so easy to pug.

I think there'll be riots if 'an expansion' basically comes with some quests and a new one-shot-boss turtle.

Originally Posted by ArkhonZ

This is the boss coming with Isengard? If so I'd say they've aimed for a winged fire-breathing long-worm (like Smaug), but perhaps not quite serpentine enough if that is the case.

Still this probably is a bit of an infringement on the idea that the last of the great dragons had gone but I'm not too bothered, looks like some effort has been put into the art-work, especially compared to the Tyrannosaur Fell-Beast.

Has nobody misquoted the classic Jimmy Durante schtick yet?

[Durante is walking along the street, leading an elephant^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H a dragon at the end of a leash.]

Policeman: Hey! Where are you going with that dragon?

Durante: What dragon?

The roads are so safe.. if only there was danger to any who travel as we approach mordor..

It would be great if this dragon was in the open.. attacking a town, making the vendors/etc unavailable until it was defeated..
I hope it stays a 24 person endeavor.

To have a nazgul guard a pass, that requires players to band together to defeat (temporarily.. like 3 day respawn) and clear the way until it returns from mordor..
Or have a band of orcs that catch you offguard as they patrol looking for fresh meat and needs to be routed.. only to return in 24 hrs..

The feeling of danger, kind of like when you go in the moors solo, and run into 12 creeps.. what a rush...
(too bad creeps can't leave moors... that would add danger and excitement with the least server load...)

Originally Posted by Laivindur

Well Sauron at the 3rd age didnt have the power to control a dragon.....and Shelob was not controlled by Sauron but was working with him/it.

I assume that's what Yula meant. Sauron may not have controlled Shelob, but he still managed to put her to good use.

Anyone can control a Dragon. Learn your history. Happened all the time in the Civil War.

Originally Posted by ArkhonZ

While the art seems nice and indeed better than the fell beast(which btw it should have been made much better,the fell beasts in the movies for example are much much better) i would like to see improved,realistic animations and not just a dragon that waits to be attacked and then all he does is attacking with his tail

For example i would like to see this in RoI

( go to 12:00 )



I am talking about the animation and the way the dragon flies and attacks, its super

Originally Posted by ArkhonZ

While still cautiously optimistic about the new raid, love the concept art you guys posted on Twitter (and Massively and Lorebook...think he's gonna be on bumper stickers and T-shirts by Isengard)

To me this seems a bit over the top ( I know it is concept art), is it just me, or is someone else seeing this asian dragon inspiration? I dont' really like it from here, but I wouldn't now how to make a better dragon so that is okay.

I hate what they did to the fellbeast though. The one from book 15 was just perfect and so close to it's description in the book...just great. Of course not overly impressive, but the Dol Guldur one, was just the witch king's ride from the movies and that is just not how Tolkien depicted it in the books...

Originally Posted by DestinationLove

Wow, I never figured that anyone would argue that Gandalf is omniscient.

. . .

Throughout the books he shows that he is often fallible. How can you argue that he isn't?

Its mind-boggling how you try to wash away his lies( the "old Gandalf", uncertain allies) and then proceed to say that Gandalf wouldn't lie because its against his ethos. Yeah, Gandalf he never lies... except when he does.

In regards to the first two comments, I -did not- argue those things. On the third, the central problem appears to be that I assumed you were either familiar with or open to an idea with which you are not: that the Gandalf we get to know in The Hobbit and that in LoR are not -precisely- the same character. In each case, I could and should have been more exact and clear. Mea culpa.

What does disappoint me though is the scorn with which you responded to my post, as I believe it perfectly clear it was polite and well-intentioned, whatever its deficiencies otherwise. If I'm mistaken in thinking it a futile exercise to pursue an intelligent conversation with you on this subject, let me know.

Bummer, I was hoping for a wingless dragon of imposing stature. I have yet to fight one of those, and would have been interesting to see how turbine could have used descriptions of Glaurung as inspiration to make it terrifying. So far, the concept art just reminds me of every other dragon I've fought in multiple MMOs.

i will necromand this thread.

A german Magazine give us some new Infos to the new raid:

90 Meter ist er von Kopf bis Schwanz groß, mit einer Flügelspanne von 108 Metern - der größte Drache, mit dem es Spieler bislang in Der Herr der Ringe Online zu tun bekommen haben. In der nächsten Erweiterung für das inzwischen grundsätzlich im Free-to-play-Modell betriebene MMORPG wartet das Biest namens Draigoch ganz in der Nähe von Smeagols Höhle auf Besucher, was konkret eine aus 24 Personen bestehende Raid-Gruppe ist, oder im schwierigeren Modus ein Team aus zwölf Mitstreitern.

If you german isn't that good:

- the dragon will bei 90 meters from head to tail
- his wing span will be 108 meters big
- his name will be Draigoch
- The Hardmode will be to defeat him with 12 players
- the raid will be placed near smeagols cave

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

Turbine stated that the Dragon is inside a 24 person instance. This situation is not compatible with ability to solo our way thru the Epic. It is going to be something like Helegrod. Dragons do not work for people. See Helegrod for what happens when you try to bring a dead Dragon under control.

Can Sauron use a Dragon - sure. Sauron made good use of Shelob. It does not appear that Sauron had much control over Shelob.

A very good post without spoiler.

Originally Posted by Zweiblumen

'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' is the Welsh national anthem, translated it's 'Old Land of My Fathers'. 'Ulad Vu' has no Welsh meaning of which I'm aware, so I would assume that it's simply an etymological variant in order to differentiate between the language used in game and actual Welsh. Much in the same way they differentiated Finnish from the language they used in Forochel.

As far as I can tell, the spelling differences are also made to make it less stresful to read and to infer the pronunciation (hence cŵn -> cun, suuri -> sûri etc.).

Coincidentally, Finnish and Welsh were respectively Tolkien's base for devising Quenya and Sindarin, the Elvish languages.

It's worth noting that it was the way those languages work and not their vocabulary as people might think. (Although some words might be similar if not exactly the same).

Originally Posted by Burio

i will necromand this thread.

A german Magazine give us some new Infos to the new raid:



If you german isn't that good:

- the dragon will bei 90 meters from head to tail
- his wing span will be 108 meters big
- his name will be Draigoch
- The Hardmode will be to defeat him with 12 players
- the raid will be placed near smeagols cave

Smeagol's cave, does that mean we are going back toward Goblin Town? Or are they referring to something else?

Considering the concept art I don't really mind that it is much like a traditional winged dragon, however I really hate what you did with the teeth of the creature. What's with those front pointing teeth? Besides being ugly, it makes no sence - it would just make it easyer for anything he bit to escape. All predators in nature have back or regular pointing teeth - back to keep the prey in their mouth and regular for easy biting. I can think of no reason at all to have teeth like those.

I read somewhere that what we will see more is his head than anything else, so PLEASE don't make it something as ugly as that (the rest of the dragon is much nicer).

And don't even get me started on the wings being under his body and not over it. Unless he flies upside down, he will really have a hard time in the air with those wings...

Anyway, that's just me being picky. :P

On the bright side: Love the colours, love the textures and the rest of the design (besides what I said above) is just sweet.

Isn't the dragon missing part of its belly? It's body shape seems more cat like than most would say dragon?

Thread recap.

Hey guys we're getting a DRAGON! Cool right?


Lore breaking.
Nope.
Gandalf lies!
German people.
BLUE NAME
Welsh Dragon?
Nope.
Smeagol
More lore breaking.
Lookit da picture.
Wings? Pfft.
Yeah wings!
Dumb name.
Just the head?
It's big.
Love big.
Hate big.
Bad teeth.
Smeagol's dragon.
Pfffft.

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

To me this seems a bit over the top ( I know it is concept art), is it just me, or is someone else seeing this asian dragon inspiration? I dont' really like it from here, but I wouldn't now how to make a better dragon so that is okay.

Actually, if you look closely, especially at the face, you will see a very different inspiration (though perhaps you aren't familiar with it....)

Originally Posted by Burio

- the raid will be placed near smeagols cave

This part is solidly incorrect.