I use the troll in Mirkwood as my punching bag. I think his name is Turzmaget or something like that (the one by the daily banner quest). He has about 40k morale.
Just bring along another captain or mini to heal you through it.
My Captain is at 65 with all the most recent top notch end game gear, all virtues at 12+. I use a 65 2H 2nd Age with Telling, Pressing Attack targets, Pressing crits, Dev crits, and Elendil. On my emblem I have 520 crit, -2.5% attack duration (among other things). On my weapon I have +7.5% Dev mag, 520 crit, -2.5% attack dur. And of course run with maxed relentless attack buff. Might and Vit are capped. Agil is above 540.
I've been running CombatAnalysis. On Turtle, having even used greater supreme battle tonic to pump out extra melee skills, I came out with 203 DPS.
Just for comparison's sake, the champs I was with averaged 600 to 700 DPS, and that was single target. Any legit comparative assessment of different classes average DPS needs to be under normal running conditions. For a Champ that means hitting AOE's as much as possible. 600+ DPS single target means... what if you have 4 or 5 mobs around you at length? A lot more. I'll see if I can get some actual data for this. P.S. I'm not mentioning Champs to suggest Captains should hit like a Champ. Of course not. But someone earlier mentioned that they thought the gap between us and them wasn't so far. In any normal condition a Champ is putting out minimum 400% what a Captain a does.
I also had a friend on his tank parsing who fully tank traited matched my DPS, and beat it in AOE situations.
Even though for very brief intervals I get my DPS up into the 800 range, that's really only for like a second and a half, just when I hit 7 targets standing together with pressing attack, and a routing cry, and a crit blade of elendil or what have you. That is the rarity and not at all indicative of a norm for a Captain. Anyone can hit crazy bursts for a second or two. This means little in a discussion about where our average is, as compared to other classes average.
My Captain is better geared than the average for sure, and having started my Captain and played it regularly since beta pre SoA I am very experienced and work my Captain hard... And still my normal DPS seems to be averaging about 225 ish... slightly lower than a Guardian tank traited with a 1H and shield.
I want to get more data for this, and also to see what a heal traited mini puts out. I am fairly sure though that they put out more than we do. We'll get the data and see.
Anyhow, the point is not to compete for DPS. It's simply to bring Captains back into balance with their own role, and closer to balance with other classes. Captains are a heavy armour melee class. Our official roles are to buff, to assist heal, to contribute respectable DPS, and to assist with tanking. Our heals are about where they should be. Our buffs are nice, and appreciated, and the new contributions mentioned in Orion's blog look nice. Our DPS is well below where it should be as a Captain. And tanking is a bit weaker than it ought to be. In the end of the day Captains are out of balance with where we should be, and have been, not just if we trait for DPS, but traited any which way - our base DPS is just plain not where is belongs. Hopefully a Dev will pipe in on one of the increasing number of threads on this subject, and let us know some good news... telling us that we can breathe easy, because the base numbers on our melee skills are going to be boosted up a bit to bring us back into balance. < This may trigger a really skeptical response from many people, but I firmly believe our Devs are trying to make this game great and want it to be balanced and enjoyable, so I do think this will eventually happen, as anyone who has been watching Captains thoughtfully since launch day of SoA would have zero ambiguity or confusion about Captain's present imbalance in a serious lack of DPS.
Geändert von maradakia (Jul 13 2011 um 09:39 PM Uhr)
History became legend, and legend became myth, and some things that should not have been forgotten were lost...
I don't want to bother pulling up the thread that featured ydoc and the parsing captain in question arguing over whether burst or sustained dps was the issue (nevermind, I did).
I can't help that it seems to be a very common mistake these days, I used to hate the people who would spam burst dps is not dps over and over. But for the record RtrnofdMax is neither of the two people I was Arguing with in a previous thread. =)
But I always understood there point, Burst dps + burst dps averaged still equals burst dps.
In any monster battle that lasts longer then 2mins you start to see the true number emerge, the longer the battle the more true the number.
@RtrnofdMax your using the helegrod helmet, so your missing +25% devastate magnitude that the DN helmet affords.
Combat Analysis, is starting to bug me honestly it relys on the defeat event message in the combat log as to the end of the battle and come sometimes take from 1-2.5 seconds to end its counting, which seems to skew the numbers slightly downward.
To test my theory I attacked a poor defenseless deer with Shadows lament and I hit him with a crit for 1,454 dmg.
Combat Analysis, told me i did about 454 dps to the deer >.>. Correct me if i am wrong but if I kill something in one hit that is basically 1 second meaning 1,454 dmg a second. Eh it hardly skews the results by a huge number but an error like this can add up over time.
@maradakia + rep for you sir "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to maradakia again." <--- boo
So I did 30 Gwibers and got a Dev Mag proc head item
Now the 332 DPS is lower than actual as I ran from a couple encounters against non-Gwibers and I shortly fought a rare elite and ran from that one too. So in reality, I needed to take 111.3s and 4305 damage off the total. This brings the DPS up to 351.
Even with the Dev helm, I only hit SL for 2390 Max.
I did think it was awesome that I got an 1156 crit on Improve Def Strike.
I will try to get into a turtle and parse Disease wing tomorrow.
What is this program you guys are using to calculate the DPS?
I have never done any sort of log parsing in LoTRO but when I played DAoC, it was pretty easy.. enabled chat logging and it saved everything with a timestamp to a text file that you then literally had to parse through.. was annoying to go through it, but you got very accurate numbers (always knew exactly when fight started and mob died for instance, as for example if you were a caster type, it would log when you began casting a spell and when it hit the mob, and logged exact time of mob death, no lag).
Please keep in mind, this is not about how high a Captain can possibly hit, if they have all traits and items specially focused on that. That would not give us any view of the average for this class. It is the norm and average DPS for the vast majority of players that is well out of balance in being much too weak at this stage of things, and which needs correction.
What we need is a large sample size of data from Captains under normal running conditions - common gear, common traiting, common combat style etc...
History became legend, and legend became myth, and some things that should not have been forgotten were lost...
Please keep in mind, this is not about how high a Captain can possibly hit, if they have all traits and items specially focused on that. That would not give us any view of the average for this class. It is the norm and average DPS for the vast majority of players that is well out of balance in being much too weak at this stage of things, and which needs correction.
What we need is a large sample size of data from Captains under normal running conditions - common gear, common traiting, common combat style etc...
Please define common. Can you view my char sheet and let me know if that is the "norm" for our class or if it is too upgraded/downgraded?
You will have some trouble parsing on Gwibers unless you bring a healer with you because your morale is a bit low. I had about 8k morale for most of my parses and I needed to pot and LS a couple times to avoid dying. That's just how it goes though when you're not using a Hope Banner, Revealing Mark, Strength from Within or Rallying Cry. I tried to start parsing with the same setup, just with an archer instead of a War Banner and that 527 morale really mattered. I was seeing my DPS jump up closer to 400 when I wasn't dying. I will see if I can get some more complete numbers later today. I have to say I was surprised that the Archer was providing such a boost, but I don't truly have the dataset to make that assertion yet.
You will have some trouble parsing on Gwibers unless you bring a healer with you because your morale is a bit low. I had about 8k morale for most of my parses and I needed to pot and LS a couple times to avoid dying. That's just how it goes though when you're not using a Hope Banner, Revealing Mark, Strength from Within or Rallying Cry. I tried to start parsing with the same setup, just with an archer instead of a War Banner and that 527 morale really mattered. I was seeing my DPS jump up closer to 400 when I wasn't dying. I will see if I can get some more complete numbers later today. I have to say I was surprised that the Archer was providing such a boost, but I don't truly have the dataset to make that assertion yet.
hmmm they were tougher then gwiberlings But I didn't need to ls or anything, do you run any melee defense? Do you keep DS up? I was fighting them yesterday and I didn't even have SFW slotted, I was relying on personal rc healing and the 2 healing proc items.
Oh, they would be no problem with RCs, but I am saving my defeat responses for stuns (when I have big strikes ready) and War-Cry. I was previously parsing with two morale proc items as well, but when I took your suggestion of getting a Dev Magnitude proc item, I had to drop one to keep my 4 Hele pieces (36s SL). I dropped the other cuz I could get better stats from OD gloves. My melee defense is fine at about 3600. If the test were to always survive them, then yes, it would be no problem, but since I am looking for maximum DPS output, I have to let some things slide: max morale, self healing, etc.
Good call on the DS as I am leaving it till the back end of my rotation. Since this is a fight that takes a few rotations, it shouldn't matter if I hit a DS early and save myself some damage rather than front loading my heavy hitters.
I killed 10 gwibers and a giant for fun, had 340 dps with dps traits, archer, first age 65 sword and ettens solo gear in. I was going to do the same with healing gear in but won't bother now, it's too depressing already.
I logged my dps for a while lastnight, as I was running through school/library with a burg and another capt. we pulled constantly, with little downtime - however there was plenty of time between me switching targets, or from being put into combat mode until first strike; but my DPS stuck around the 200 range; even on the boss fights. obviously this is not burst dps; and i'm not equipped with any amazing stuff, and traited mostly blue.
Who's whining? I am just trying to properly determine what our DPS truly is. All I have found so far is that the "we struggle to do 300 DPS" kool-aid I had been drinking may be a bit low. More testing will show...
I lucked into it with the lottery while it was still running. Otherwise, you will need to find a group to tackle Ost Dunhoth Tier 2 instances. Disease Challenge mode and Wound non-Challenge are pretty easy to get on farm and will allow your group to get 2-3 Symbols of the Elder King (which you need to make 1st age level 65s) each week.
Telling Mark alone can contribute upto 10% of the damage done to a mob regardless of whether the Captain is grouped or solo. That is over 50k against most raid bosses, with the press of a single button.
The nature of Captains make it difficult to balance their DPS. Their buffs have long durations (long enough that halving those durations would mean very little) allowing them to focus on healing and damage while in combat. Those same buffs are also critical for the Captain while soloing, leaving very little that a Captain can sacrifice in exchange for more damage. Their is a similar problem with Captain healing. How much healing could be sacrificed to compensate for additonal damage without costing a Captain his/her ability to solo.
I would probably set up LtC like:
2R) +20% damage, 40% IHW, -10% outgoing heal
3R) +10 incoming heal, 50% rez range
4R) +40% damage, 20% IHW, -20% outgoing heal
A net loss for self healing, but the reduced lifespan of mobs should make up for it. Unfortunately, I do not have a high level Captain, so I do not know how much of a damage increase is actually needed to bring it in line with other classes.
The enemy of your enemy is trying to ninja your mob.
I don't think the titular question needs to be asked anymore. I think the new question is: How many classes are we going to do more DPS than now?
The old announced changes + the new announced changes = no one complains about dps ever again lol.
I am suspecting while traiting in the Lead the charge line, not taking into account lvl upgrade dps. We will probably go up about 100 maybe 150 dps sustained.
So instead of 230-300 sustained as now we might be looking at 330-450 sustain depending on trait lines, gear, and legacies. Then the level cap should upgrade our dps a bit more to stay in line with the lvl cap.
I think that it's quite unfair that other support classes out-dps us when like other ppl said, we are supposed to be the leaders of the charge. They just want us because of our buffs, but we can't heal like others, can't tank like others and can't dps like others, at least give us one fine traitline, and i think that a dps line upgrade should be fine
Well a captain is not a DPS class, they are a support/buffing class. If you like DPS stick with your champ, a hunter, or an RK. A captain's job is to heal, buff, & off-tank from time to time. Captains are a blast to play in skirmishes, I love charging into battle with a herald & a soldier.
This.
Besides, in the OPs example the difference was 5 seconds. That really doesn't sound like a big deal when you consider the fact Champions are an actual DPS class, and Captain's aren't.
You two above me do realize that this thread was written when the level cap was still 65 right?
]
No I didn't.
Guess it just goes to show that old arguments die hard.
But this debate comes up once every few days on this forum anyhow, so while the thread may be old - a lot of Captains still seem to feel their damage is underpowered. I don't really understand why - because even as a Hands of Healing captain I'm pretty satisfied with my damage. And I've seen some good Lead the Charge Captains in action. Their damage is pretty nice.
No I didn't.
... because even as a Hands of Healing captain I'm pretty satisfied with my damage. And I've seen some good Lead the Charge Captains in action. Their damage is pretty nice.
Agreed....
Captain DPS at 75 is good if you get yourself some decent stuff.
Going red capstone i parse myself often at 1,2-1,3k at mobs (tested at LG spidies n biggies), sometimes as high as 1,5k dps which i say is good.
To this add our survivability (marks, buffs, heals) and enjoy mr. superman
-¤-¤-¤- Errare humanum est, ignoscere divinum est -¤-¤-¤-
Captain DPS at 75 is good if you get yourself some decent stuff.
Going red capstone i parse myself often at 1,2-1,3k at mobs (tested at LG spidies n biggies), sometimes as high as 1,5k dps which i say is good.
To this add our survivability (marks, buffs, heals) and enjoy mr. superman
Well it's nice to know we agree on some things at least Sweden
Yes we are the lowest, we are a character skilled in the use of arms, wearing heavy armor and wielding two handed weapons, and get out dps'ed by a glorified scholar throwing sticky fire, and by a wayward musician who screams a lot.
Makes perfect sense. Logic need not apply.
It's perfectly logical. Why would a halberd do more damage than a lightning strike or the invoked wrath of the Valar? And the OP's argument is nonsense anyway, Captains can do great damage with the right legacies, gear, and traits.
Telling Mark (10%) + Relentless Attack + Archer + Blade-brother + Capstoned Red Line Traits + Shadow's Lament Cooldown + AOE Target Legacy + an optional but useful Dagor set = a neutral damaging style: single-target DPS greater than a Champion's and AOE greater than a Hunter's.
This means that a DPS Captain must take on 3 or 4 mobs at once for maximum efficiency. Or you can trait HoH and take on 6 at a time with no problem (which brings up a different issue entirely - the fact that it's easier to solo while HoH traited than LtC).
Geändert von GeorgeBaggy (May 27 2012 um 08:42 PM Uhr)
Banner of War + Telling Mark (10%) + Relentless Attack + Archer + Capstoned Red Line Traits = a neutral damaging style: single-target DPS greater than a Champion's and AOE greater than a Hunter's.
Dude, go download CombatAnalysis and find some champ participants to experiment with. The only way a competent red captain can pull higher single target DPS than a competent red champ is with massive gear disparity in the capt's favor.
Once the hunters get their split shot bug fixed, you'll certainly have to reevaluate that AOE comment too.
Dude, go download CombatAnalysis and find some champ participants to experiment with. The only way a competent red captain can pull higher single target DPS than a competent red champ is with massive gear disparity in the capt's favor.
Once the hunters get their split shot bug fixed, you'll certainly have to reevaluate that AOE comment too.
My claim is backed up by a test involving several trials. In the first we each attacked a separate dummy several times with him unbuffed. In the second test we each attacked two separate dummies under the same condition. In the third test we each attacked the same two dummies with him fully buffed to simulate a fellowship condition.
Note that in the first test I used Blade-brother buffs on myself, a 10% Telling Mark on the target, and an Archer with Loyalty and Precise Ally slotted. In the second and third tests I used a Banner of War with Captain's Valour and Aherent of Elendil slotted. Perhaps I should have repeated the last two tests traited and geared as I was in the first, but experience told me that using a Banner of War is best for AOE.
I wasn't meticulous enough to write down the numbers but I remember the results:
Test 1, soloing a separate single target - me
Test 2, soloing a separate group of targets- him
Test 3, attacking the same group of targets - him on both targets
So you see that under soloing conditions, a properly played and traited Captain can beat a Champion in single-target DPS but not in AOE DPS. While fellowed with a Captain, however, a Champion will surpass him in single-target DPS if they are attacking the same target.
Another anecdote: in a raid the other day I saw a Champion in full Deluaglos armor take down a 10k trash mob in only about two thirds the time it took my HoH Captain to take down another.
As for Hunter AOE, I mained as a Hunter until I realized that Captains are more fun to raid with, and I predict that even an improved Split Shot won't increase the class's AOE above that of a Captain. Seeing as neither of us can currently perform a test to resolve the debate, we'll just have to accept each other's opinions and move on.
EDIT: I also just realized that I included Banner of War and Archer in the post that you replied too. I'll edit that.
Geändert von GeorgeBaggy (May 27 2012 um 08:38 PM Uhr)
Dummies don't have realistic resistances or BPE to test against. I'm quite sure Captains don't out DPS equally geared Hunters & Champs (or RK's) from all the parses. We are a little better off than we used to be relatively, but all my parsing says we are still the lowest DPS class, and all the arguments against giving us a bit more solo DPS are still a joke, since 15% more solo DPS won't change a thing about raid balance.
Dummies don't have realistic resistances or BPE to test against. I'm quite sure Captains don't out DPS equally geared Hunters & Champs (or RK's) from all the parses. We are a little better off than we used to be relatively, but all my parsing says we are still the lowest DPS class, and all the arguments against giving us a bit more solo DPS are still a joke, since 15% more solo DPS won't change a thing about raid balance.
To be comparative DPSers, don't we need around +50% LtC DPS?
My claim is backed up by a test involving several trials. In the first we each attacked a separate dummy several times with him unbuffed. In the second test we each attacked two separate dummies under the same condition. In the third test we each attacked the same two dummies with him fully buffed to simulate a fellowship condition.
Note that in the first test I used Blade-brother buffs on myself, a 10% Telling Mark on the target, and an Archer with Loyalty and Precise Ally slotted. In the second and third tests I used a Banner of War with Captain's Valour and Aherent of Elendil slotted. Perhaps I should have repeated the last two tests traited and geared as I was in the first, but experience told me that using a Banner of War is best for AOE.
I wasn't meticulous enough to write down the numbers but I remember the results:
Test 1, soloing a separate single target - me
Test 2, soloing a separate group of targets- him
Test 3, attacking the same group of targets - him on both targets
So you see that under soloing conditions, a properly played and traited Captain can beat a Champion in single-target DPS but not in AOE DPS. While fellowed with a Captain, however, a Champion will surpass him in single-target DPS if they are attacking the same target.
Another anecdote: in a raid the other day I saw a Champion in full Deluaglos armor take down a 10k trash mob in only about two thirds the time it took my HoH Captain to take down another.
As for Hunter AOE, I mained as a Hunter until I realized that Captains are more fun to raid with, and I predict that even an improved Split Shot won't increase the class's AOE above that of a Captain. Seeing as neither of us can currently perform a test to resolve the debate, we'll just have to accept each other's opinions and move on.
EDIT: I also just realized that I included Banner of War and Archer in the post that you replied too. I'll edit that.
Ok, soloing conditions. Now that you clarify that, its not so outlandish. (The OP is a year old and no longer relevant)
But I am gonna grab a kinmate champ and check some things out.
As for Hunter AoE with Arrow Storm, Deadly Precision, Hail of Arrows and ~capped crit... man I'm brainstorming ways of testing that now.
If captains are out-dps'ing champs single target (no buffs on champ), it is because that champ is not very good.
But that's probably how it should be.
I'm open to your parses, but a better method would be asking the champion forums for their unbuffed parses and take an average of those to compare against.
What I will admit to you is the disparity between unbuffed champ and buffed captain is not that large anymore. Our DPS is far improved over what we were in mirkwood, and we can dps spec and still heal, which is quite amazing. The changes to shadow's lament and sure strike fit very well with the class.
Also, don't necro threads, should make a new thread. People are going to be confused.
Geändert von DuneBug (May 28 2012 um 01:25 AM Uhr)
we should be at mid+ in the dps scale. The dps classes shall ofc be highest. But tank-classes at lowest. Helaers should be at the mid too.
A solo-buff that makes our dps stronger.. a stance or something would be nice. I remember in moria, when we had similiar dps as we have now, but then got nerferd. 15 lvls after, were at the same dps-scale as in moria ;( maybe a bit higher.
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