I don't think it's a matter of comprehension, EK. I think it's a matter of agreement... which the majority here tend not to with you. A person can understand an opposing viewpoint and still choose to disagree with it.
More of this lack of understanding we seem to have with each other... I wish I knew where it was coming from. I enlarge fonts on my monitor so I can read every single word and comprehend them all. Could you, maybe, do something similar because I really think you're not reading or comprehending what we, as a majority on this thread, are saying.
Majority, am I out of line? I'm just trying to help him better make his point as well as better understand ours. When you grease a turkey, it can be stuffed easier, right? I'm just trying to keep this thing moving smoothly and with as few snags as possible.
Our point of view is irrelevant and any fix we suggest is either not needed or a waste of the developers time as far as he is concerned. He believes that any complaint is in the minority and claims he has never seen or experienced these emotes in a griefing manner and so therefore they do not exist yet believes that if he experiences a bug everyone has and those that claim they haven't is a liar.It is believed by some that he argues against any fix for this issue because he is in fact someone who enjoys using these emotes on other players or enjoys the "debate" and could actually careless about the issue.
TDLR: Dealing with him is like banging your head against the wall and scoring any major points against him might put your reputation at risk
I don't care about my reputation. They're just little green things. What I care about is when some dev or PR person sees this thread, they see his stuff and ignore all of ours.
Anyways, since it's still going on, why not tie a toggle in with the /rp flag? Maybe have the /rp flag throw on the Serious Business buff. It seems that the biggest opponents to the fest skills are RPers and maybe engine (who I am convinced is against both sides)...
In pursuit of knowledge, for knowledge is power....
Anyways, since it's still going on, why not tie a toggle in with the /rp flag? Maybe have the /rp flag throw on the Serious Business buff. It seems that the biggest opponents to the fest skills are RPers and maybe engine (who I am convinced is against both sides)...
I'd rather not mislead an RPer into thinking I'm open to RP when I'm not, I just want the emote annotance to cease.
I'm also pretty sure that the Serious Business buff mechanic prevents one from using forced emotes (and maybe only a subset of them, not sure about the class ones); it does not prevent one from reacting if such an emote is cast at you. I cannot confirm that, since offhand I can't think of a place where someone could be outside of the SB range and use an emote on someone inside the SB influence area. I could be wrong about that too, it's been quite a while since my last recall of being in an SB area.
I know, I said I quit, so why am I posting? 'Cause there ain't no Blogorette patch.
I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for them to make it work both ways, though. Also, I've had RPers assume I'm RPing without the flag (leading to an interesting discussion about dwarven society, but that's a topic for another day), and have known people to use the flag when not RPing (myself included). Might as well tie something together that seems to, as a general consensus, go together.
In pursuit of knowledge, for knowledge is power....
I think you confuse the http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ed-emotes-quot thread. I just looked and there seem to be 3 active multi-page threads about (approximately) this subject on this forum alone... makes you wonder.
Knight of Iluvatar - Gilrain. Playing LotRO since july 2007.
I think you confuse the http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ed-emotes-quot thread. I just looked and there seem to be 3 active multi-page threads about (approximately) this subject on this forum alone... makes you wonder.
Nah, that one was 60 pages, this one was 30 or so, and now that I've poked around in the right places, I think that question was answered.
Then again, as it was also said, it's the same group of us all talking about the same thing (and arguing with the same person, it seems)
In pursuit of knowledge, for knowledge is power....
I have already explained why notification is needed. I am really sorry that you cannot figure that what I mean.
You've explained why you THINK notification is needed, but I ask you: If everything in this game gave notifications every time something didn't work, or was out of range, or wasn't a viable target, or you tried to use a skill that was on cooldown (like the permanent version of forced emotes), then wouldn't your screen become just a cluttered disaster of never-ending notifications? Isn't that just as annoying to some people as the emotes are? Wouldn't it be preferable to just use your eyes to look at your skill bars and see "Oh! My cooldown is active, it must have worked. I guess they have the emote toggle on, since I didn't see anything happen." I don't know about anyone else, but I turn as many notifications as I can off, because the reputation ones were especially distracting to me while I was out and about in the Lone-Lands.
And for the record, if the person WERE just AFK, as you keep saying, but didn't have the toggle on, the effect would still work on them. I've come back from being AFK to find my character lying on the ground more than once, so I seriously doubt that it would be all THAT confusing. (And contrary to what you might think, in those cases, I didn't even bother looking to see who'd hit me with faint, mostly because I figured they'd be long gone by then.)
Basically, if the character falls down (or reacts in any way), and doesn't automatically pop back to doing whatever they were doing, they're likely AFK. If they DO go back to doing what they're doing, that's a pretty clear sign they aren't interested in being "social" with you in that way. And if they ask you to stop, that's an even more clear sign that they aren't interested, but that one, unfortunately, provokes a lot of vitriol right back at them, for not enjoying what people like YOU view as a "funny joke".
So, no, ek, it's not a matter of comprehension. It's a matter of not having excessive notifications that we can't turn off showing up on our screens, AND it's a matter of me thinking that would be a silly idea, as it would take more coding to implement (thereby taking even LONGER to put an opt-out toggle in), while the coding to make a toggle work is already partially in place and would just take a little bit of reworking. I also view it as unnecessary, as I believe most people have enough common sense to be able to figure these things out without a blip of text telling them so. However, as your above quote implies, you've shown repeatedly what you think about other players' intelligence, so it's understandable that YOU think some type of warning would be necessary.
However, IF it were determined that a warning is necessary by the devs, fine, as long as it doesn't show up on MY screen when someone tries to emote or use a festival item on me. Since I don't use the things myself, if I don't see any reminders, then I can pretend they don't exist.
If everything in this game gave notifications every time something didn't work, or was out of range, or wasn't a viable target, or you tried to use a skill that was on cooldown (like the permanent version of forced emotes), then wouldn't your screen become just a cluttered disaster of never-ending notifications?
But that's what it does now. When you try to use an item or skill on an invalid target, the game does give you the "invalid target" message. When you try to use a skill from too far away, the game does give you the "target not in range" message. (Ok, I don't honestly recall for certain whether there's a message for trying to use a skill/item that's on cooldown since I hardly ever make that mistake, but I'd be surprised if there isn't.) I believe it's the "Standard" channel of the chatbox that has all these messages. Do you not have that in your chat filters?
The standard pattern when you try to do something that you can't do here is that the game tells you it didn't work. I can't understand why some people here seem so insistent that this should be the exception to that general rule.
Originally Posted by Myrric
IF it were determined that a warning is necessary by the devs, fine, as long as it doesn't show up on MY screen when someone tries to emote or use a festival item on me.
Well, of course not. In that situation you wouldn't have been the one who just had one of your item/skill attempts fail, so there's nothing to notify you of. It's the person who tried to use the item who needs to be told that your character is not a valid target for that item.
I really dislike the festival consumable emotes and the (spammable?) reward emote skills likewise. I would really appreciate if people could not train these using my characters at all.
I'd prefer a total block like spar or invite block. Not just the animation toggle. The reward emotes included in this.
That usable in festival areas suggestion I have seen somewhere doesn't really appeal to me, as what I mostly want to do in this game is... to enjoy the festivals.
But that's what it does now. When you try to use an item or skill on an invalid target, the game does give you the "invalid target" message. When you try to use a skill from too far away, the game does give you the "target not in range" message. (Ok, I don't honestly recall for certain whether there's a message for trying to use a skill/item that's on cooldown since I hardly ever make that mistake, but I'd be surprised if there isn't.) I believe it's the "Standard" channel of the chatbox that has all these messages. Do you not have that in your chat filters?
The standard pattern when you try to do something that you can't do here is that the game tells you it didn't work. I can't understand why some people here seem so insistent that this should be the exception to that general rule.
The difference being, Niwashi, that many of those notifications have a disable function attached to them. And yes, I disable as many of them as I need to, because I don't like having my chat logs and/or screen fill up with repetitive words whenever I have something I'm doing. So, again, yes, I don't have these messages appearing in my chat filters, because, like the emotes, I dislike them, but unlike the emotes, I can do something about that.
I don't need a blip of text to tell me that I'm out of range, because I can look at my skill bars once I've targeted something and SEE that I'm out of range because the icons show it. And there is one for cooldowns as well (I used to hit things a lot when I first started playing), which I also turned off.
What ek is suggesting is that players get a notification that they cannot turn off, which is just as intrusive to some players as the emotes are in the first place. If it comes with the same disable function as the other ones, then great, I'll stop arguing against that, but ONLY if it can be turned off.
Originally Posted by Niwashi
Well, of course not. In that situation you wouldn't have been the one who just had one of your item/skill attempts fail, so there's nothing to notify you of. It's the person who tried to use the item who needs to be told that your character is not a valid target for that item.
I'm still not clear on why the permanent versions of these items or emotes would need a notification, since you're not losing anything from your bags, and it would be fairly obvious by the fact that the player didn't do the action you were trying to cast that they most likely had the emotes turned off, but have it your way. I still believe that it will just add to another type of hostility, and I thought the point of the opt-out toggle was to take away some of the hostility already present between groups concerning these kinds of actions and emotes.
The difference being, Niwashi, that many of those notifications have a disable function attached to them.
I'm not quite sure I understand starting that sentence with "the difference being". The disable function is simply a matter of what chat channels you filter for. There's nothing special about these, just the same notifications in the same chat filter.
Originally Posted by Myrric
What ek is suggesting is that players get a notification that they cannot turn off
Really? That would be weird. And I don't recall him mentioning that part in this thread (though perhaps I missed it amongst the flood of other messages or in another of these threads). If that's the case, I wouldn't agree with that part. I do want there to be notifications, but just the normal ones like we get now when an invalid target is selected.
Originally Posted by Myrric
I'm still not clear on why the permanent versions of these items or emotes would need a notification, since you're not losing anything from your bags, and it would be fairly obvious by the fact that the player didn't do the action you were trying to cast that they most likely had the emotes turned off, but have it your way.
The same reason it tells people (well, any people who include it in their chat filters) that an attack skill cannot fire because they don't have a mob targeted, or they're not in range. There's nothing being used up there, either. If it were simply a matter of nothing happening, people would be left wondering why the skill or action wasn't firing. Did the computer even recognize that they clicked the button (since sometimes there are issues with clicks registering as short drags instead)? If the game reacts in some fashion to any attempt to use a skill, either by firing the skill or by stating that the skill cannot be used, then at least people know the game recognized that they tried to activate the skill, and that if it didn't work it's because it's not supposed to work.
I don't really care if the emote user gets a notice that the emote attempt failed for whatever reason. If they get the bounce message and decide to badger me about my choice of using an emote toggle, well, /ignore still works just dandy.
I know, I said I quit, so why am I posting? 'Cause there ain't no Blogorette patch.
I don't really care if the emote user gets a notice that the emote attempt failed for whatever reason. If they get the bounce message and decide to badger me about my choice of using an emote toggle, well, /ignore still works just dandy.
I don't really understand the reasons for requesting notification. Player_01 casts /command respect on Est, and gets an *Invalid target* message back. Ok, now what. He moves on to a different character ? He sends a tell to Est, "Hey, turn on emotes so I can emote you."? He starts harassing Est for interfering with his fun by disallowing emotes to be cast on him?
I don't care about what notification player_01 gets, so long as Est sees nothing and continues with his own game his own way.
Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra
I don't care about what notification player_01 gets, so long as Est sees nothing and continues with his own game his own way.
That's exactly how it would work. Player_01 uses an emote, it notifies him that the recipient (Est) doesn't have emotes turned on. Est experienced none of it and is completely unaware.
It would be the same as if Est had player_01 in his ignore list, and player_01 tried to send Est a Tell. Est would be unaware it occurred, and all player_01 would see is a notification that Tell's don't work with Est.
That's exactly how it would work. Player_01 uses an emote, it notifies him that the recipient (Est) doesn't have emotes turned on. Est experienced none of it and is completely unaware.
It would be the same as if Est had player_01 in his ignore list, and player_01 tried to send Est a Tell. Est would be unaware it occurred, and all player_01 would see is a notification that Tell's don't work with Est.
It's a win-win.
If an "opt out" comes with a notification to the emoter that the emotee has forced emotes disabled, will you support Turbine adding an "opt out" feature?
But to my knowledge (and i could be wrong but I don't think I am) if Est has player_01 on ignore and player_01 sends Est a /tell, the only thing player_01 knows is that Est did not reply to his /tell. There is no notification from players who have you on ignore.
Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra
If an "opt out" comes with a notification to the emoter that the emotee has forced emotes disabled, will you support Turbine adding an "opt out" feature?
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
I don't support this opt-out feature, as I have said countless times, and thoroughly explained why countless times. You know that since you read my posts.
I only suggest notification be added in the event they happen to implement a toggle.
I don't support this opt-out feature, as I have said countless times, and thoroughly explained why countless times. You know that since you read my posts.
I only suggest notification be added in the event they happen to implement a toggle.
Since you don't support the "opt out", why should anyone care if you want a notification?
Note that I said "IF it came with a notification" and asked if that, with that qualification you would support an "opt out". You have given a clear "no" as an answer. Given that, your interest in notification is noted and dismissed as moot.
Since WeatherStock, it's been clearly proven that griefing does occur with the use of forced emoted, disrupting player run events. I don't think Turbine has much of an option now but to act, in some manner. I think they're going to have to address it.
I think that if anything Turbine will see that this once-a-year event went down mostly without a hitch, just as the organizer and volunteers stated.
They will see that one captain, only used two bows very late into the event, and that the GM acted and teleported him away.
They will come to the conclusion that despite this one guy, everything went fine, and it shows that 500 players were there for four hours, and only one person misbehaved a little bit towards the end, which demonstrates there really isn't a crisis of emote greifers out there.
Their final decision will be there no need to have their developers stop what they are working on to develop and test new software which would change the game for all players on all servers just because of this one isolated incident.
That's what i think. I could be wrong, only time will tell.
Their final decision will be there no need to have their developers stop what they are working on to develop and test new software which would change the game for all players on all servers just because of this one isolated incident.
That's what we have been trying to explain though, it's not isolated to this event. That player, his kin mates and friends have a history of doing this at any player event they can get to on Landroval. We have these type of events (music and dance) three times a week or more on Landroval, obviously with a much smaller group of people. I have friends that are at the breaking point and talking about leaving the game because of it. My partner Dworin, has already stopped his VIP and the both of us are still on the fence about purchasing the expansion. And before you suggest it, reporting them to GMs has done NOTHING. We literally have sent in dozens of tickets on these people. We are talking about MONTHS of coordinated and consistent attacks on our play time.
You tell me, what would you do?
"Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart." - Marcus Aelius Aurelius
That's what we have been trying to explain though, it's not isolated to this event. That player, his kin mates and friends have a history of doing this at any player event they can get to on Landroval. We have these type of events (music and dance) three times a week or more on Landroval, obviously with a much smaller group of people. I have friends that are at the breaking point and talking about leaving the game because of it. My partner Dworin, has already stopped his VIP and the both of us are still on the fence about purchasing the expansion. And before you suggest it, reporting them to GMs has done NOTHING. We literally have sent in dozens of tickets on these people. We are talking about MONTHS of coordinated and consistent attacks on our play time.
You tell me, what would you do?
I can't offer any suggestions except avoid those guys. If they are truly harassing you then GM's should act. If the GM's are not acting then they must not think it's true harassment.
I can't offer any suggestions except avoid those guys.
Just how do you propose that people running a planned event that is on Calendar (up there at the top of the page) avoid people that show up to be deliberately disruptive?
If they are truly harassing you then GM's should act. If the GM's are not acting then they must not think it's true harassment.
Do *you* think that someone deliberately showing up at a planned event and disrupting an event constitutes harassment? If not, why not? Are you prepared to present a logical and coherent defense of why such actions *aren't* harassment?
Just how do you propose that people running a planned event that is on Calendar (up there at the top of the page) avoid people that show up to be deliberately disruptive?
Do *you* think that someone deliberately showing up at a planned event and disrupting an event constitutes harassment? If not, why not? Are you prepared to present a logical and coherent defense of why such actions *aren't* harassment?
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
The event organizer said the GM took care of it. Reporting worked according to Weatherstock organizer.
Just /signing. If there was a toggle switch to prevent forced emotes, I would check it. I've never done a forced emote on anyone in five years because, well, it seems rude. I think a toggle is a perfect solution.
'I have come,' he said. 'But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!' J.R.R. Tolkien
The event organizer said the GM took care of it. Reporting worked according to Weatherstock organizer.
This was one specific report of a positive action by a GM at a very high profile event. This does not answer the question posed to you about occurrences at other more local and less widely promoted regularly scheduled events. I'd like an answer to that question as well.
This was one specific report of a positive action by a GM at a very high profile event. This does not answer the question posed to you about occurrences at other more local and less widely promoted regularly scheduled events. I'd like an answer to that question as well.
I don't have all the answers. I wasn't there. I don't know the true circumstances. If you reported someone and you they didn't act on it how am I supposed to tell you why?
The event organizer said the GM took care of it. Reporting worked according to Weatherstock organizer.
I don't want to exaggerate how bad this forced emote incident was, but neither do I want to minimize it. One bad actor was able to Hijack the event for a good 3-5 minutes because of these things. The GM did take care of him eventually, but only after nearly 2 minutes of music had been nuked, and he managed to sow the mayhem he obviously wanted.
We had a well behaved Weatherstock. These incidents at the end were the biggest bits of trolling that occurred. For the most part the event went well with a very respectful audience, and I'm happy for that. But these force emotes give too much power to disrupt. If I had my druthers, I'd allow for a way that a group of unhappy targets could take away this power from the griefer forever, without needing to plead the case to a third party who may or may not take an severe action like banning. There's got to be some middle ground between banning and open season. For chat we've got /ignore to deal with obnoxious or harassing players, no GM involvement is necessary. An /ignore on force emotes seems a good solution--as a force emote is a type of speech. Speech that can be used for positive or negative ends. I often warn miscreants that they risk turning into a mute ghost if they continue misbehaving at an event. That seems to get their attention. But these mute ghosts can be poltergeists with their annoying tricks and forced emotes.
I guess it all goes back to the old saying, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose." Its a phantom arm, and a virtual nose, but the addage still applies.
For chat we've got /ignore to deal with obnoxious or harassing players, no GM involvement is necessary. An /ignore on force emotes seems a good solution
How about if instead of them having to create a toggle that stops all emotes, even ones from friends, they changed /ignore to include forced emotes. Then any forced emote done by a player on your ignore list would have no effect on you?
That might work and it might be easier for the devs to do?
How about if instead of them having to create a toggle that stops all emotes, even ones from friends, they changed /ignore to include forced emotes. Then any forced emote done by a player on your ignore list would have no effect on you?
That might work and it might be easier for the devs to do?
It partially works, but its only a reaction past attack.
For people with disabilities, like Myrric, why are hurt if hit by even single D.R.A.G.O.N, its not a solution, as he will still be hurt by it, even if he later igniores the emoter.
For people at the events like Weatherstock, its not a solution, as they will still be interrupted.
Ps. Earent you by chance the developer, who did came up with this 'idea' in first place?
Thank you, Turbine, for listening and giving us an opt-out of FE! Good work!
It partially works, but its only a reaction past attack.
For people with disabilities, like Myrric, why are hurt if hit by even single D.R.A.G.O.N, its not a solution, as he will still be hurt by it, even if he later igniores the emoter.
For people at the events like Weatherstock, its not a solution, as they will still be interrupted.
Ps. Earent you by chance the developer, who did came up with this 'idea' in first place?
Did you ask me if I am the one who developed these emotes?
Hehe, if you did, no I am not a developer. I think I tried to learn Q Basic back in 1993 and gave up.
If the GM's are not acting then they must not think it's true harassment.
I found this hilarious.
It's actually more like if someone showed up to a party in a batman mask and began whacking everyone with a baseball bat.
According to you, he must not be hurting anyone if the police don't arrest him.
In LOTRO's case...sometimes they won't deal with an offender, sometimes they can't, but that doesn't change the facts.
(I think this is turning from Pro-skill/anti-skill to everyone vs EK...but then, prolly because he's the only one arguing against this)
In pursuit of knowledge, for knowledge is power....
How about if instead of them having to create a toggle that stops all emotes, even ones from friends, they changed /ignore to include forced emotes. Then any forced emote done by a player on your ignore list would have no effect on you?
That might work and it might be easier for the devs to do?
It's still reactive when what is needed is a proactive solution. I don't want to ignore player_01 after he has disrupted my dance with Eukwen. I want to prevent him from disrupting my dance with Eukwen.
Proactive: Preventing player_01 from disrupting the dance.
Reactive: Putting player_01 on ignore after he has disrupted the dance.
Proactive is the proper solution.
Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra
It partially works, but its only a reaction past attack.
For people with disabilities, like Myrric, why are hurt if hit by even single D.R.A.G.O.N, its not a solution, as he will still be hurt by it, even if he later igniores the emoter.
For people at the events like Weatherstock, its not a solution, as they will still be interrupted.
Ps. Earent you by chance the developer, who did came up with this 'idea' in first place?
To clarify, I'm the disabled male in the relationship. Myrric is my wife. Thank you for thinking of me *blushes*
To clarify, I'm the disabled male in the relationship. Myrric is my wife. Thank you for thinking of me *blushes*
Ahh, i apologize for mixing up the genders. *blush* Hope you dont feel offended for me using you as an example of this pro-active/re-active protection.
(OOC. Must come from wrongly applying rules of my native language to the names, where usually female ones are with endings of -a & -e and male most often end with -s, -ts, -is. Have to stop uncounsciously doing that)
Thank you, Turbine, for listening and giving us an opt-out of FE! Good work!
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