Thread: Petition: Add Masteries to GMWT

Originally Posted by Nydorewyth

Slotting the trait will give you access to all three masteries. I don't think you actually have to have the stance active to use the masteries. At least I assume that's not the case or the forums would be on fire.

This is true. It's tied to the Legendary, not the stance.

/signed

Though I honestly think it's a travesty that a tanking class has a DPS legendary as a staple. It just speaks to the lack of discrepancy in most content between tank survivability and damage dealer survivability, or tank DPS and damage dealer DPS. Nevertheless I always slot GMWT for lack of better options, as most Wardens do, so attaching masteries to it would be the least painful short term solution. Emphasis on short term though, if the long term scenario is needing to keep GMWT slotted instead of providing us with actually useful survivability legendaries, then I want no part of that.

As for WotW needing buffs I agree. But I strongly disagree that it has less situational utility than JoDF or DC. DC is useful in the moors for Reaver/Warg 1v1s(not gonna matter in RvR or save you from a gank), on Disease Wing boss and a couple other specific fights, and as a crutch. JoDF is useful for trash pulls and some bosses but not most. WotW is useful for most boss fights.

So what it comes down to for me is WotW is useful in those fights where min-maxing is even remotely necessary. The Frothmar fight comes to mind as a situation where increased attack speed(better rotation efficiency), increased damage(enrage timer), and a pseudo-HoT(to counteract the ticking acid along with Conviction) all come in handy. On the other hand an AOE javelin or gimped force taunt in that fight seems patently pointless.

JoDF is cute and flashy I'll give it that. But almost without exception(Wound gauntlet etc excepted) its usefulness lies in pulls where a good Warden shouldn't honestly have any trouble, AOE threat without concern for CC. In such a pull optimized for JoDF and not needing CC, each mob has to be individually pathetic enough to not demolish the tank or even a DPS, so the pull as a whole is trivial.

DC... well DC is just a sad forgotten child. It sees more use for its secondary effect than its primary which is horrible from a design standpoint. And the only reason I employ it in Disease for example, is because of the accidentally complementary design flaw, which is that our AOE threat skills all have paltry DoTs attached to them. If it weren't for that it'd never see PvE usage.

Originally Posted by Jacbo

/signed

Though I honestly think it's a travesty that a tanking class has a DPS legendary as a staple. It just speaks to the lack of discrepancy in most content between tank survivability and damage dealer survivability, or tank DPS and damage dealer DPS. Nevertheless I always slot GMWT for lack of better options, as most Wardens do, so attaching masteries to it would be the least painful short term solution. Emphasis on short term though, if the long term scenario is needing to keep GMWT slotted instead of providing us with actually useful survivability legendaries, then I want no part of that.

As for WotW needing buffs I agree. But I strongly disagree that it has less situational utility than JoDF or DC. DC is useful in the moors for Reaver/Warg 1v1s(not gonna matter in RvR or save you from a gank), on Disease Wing boss and a couple other specific fights, and as a crutch. JoDF is useful for trash pulls and some bosses but not most. WotW is useful for most boss fights.

So what it comes down to for me is WotW is useful in those fights where min-maxing is even remotely necessary. The Frothmar fight comes to mind as a situation where increased attack speed(better rotation efficiency), increased damage(enrage timer), and a pseudo-HoT(to counteract the ticking acid along with Conviction) all come in handy. On the other hand an AOE javelin or gimped force taunt in that fight seems patently pointless.

JoDF is cute and flashy I'll give it that. But almost without exception(Wound gauntlet etc excepted) its usefulness lies in pulls where a good Warden shouldn't honestly have any trouble, AOE threat without concern for CC. In such a pull optimized for JoDF and not needing CC, each mob has to be individually pathetic enough to not demolish the tank or even a DPS, so the pull as a whole is trivial.

DC... well DC is just a sad forgotten child. It sees more use for its secondary effect than its primary which is horrible from a design standpoint. And the only reason I employ it in Disease for example, is because of the accidentally complementary design flaw, which is that our AOE threat skills all have paltry DoTs attached to them. If it weren't for that it'd never see PvE usage.

Well put - I agree completely. WotW is great for the tough fights, and the fact that it resets in the raid make it even more valuable and useful. I agree that it could use some b/e love, less CD, affected by masteries and not reset if the boss leaves combat for 2 seconds but it definitely is more useful than JoDF / DC for difficult content. Don't forget we are getting another gambit that might make DC even more useless.

I agree as well. WotW is already very efficient in many situations : raid bosses, tough solo fights, long battles in the moors, sparring... I don't know how I could tank and remove corruptions quickly enough in 6-man Watchers or Blind Ones if I hadn't WotW. You *merely* have to remember to activate it when the fight starts.

I don't mind if masteries are added to GMWT instead of WotW, but I find it unnecessary. And I wonder why you don't.

/signed

Excellent idea. The logic alone defines this as intellegent design.

Originally Posted by geoboy

I'm on the fence with this one. Taking an already strong trait and making it stronger? I can't see that happening. What they need to do is to make WoTW useful, and make masteries trained skills.


regardless of which legendary they are tacked on to, that's one less legendary slot we have to customize our build.

/unsigned

Obviously making masteries trained skills (and maybe even making JoDF a trained skill as well) would be ideal... However, Orion has already said that trained masteries isn’t going to happen, so this petition was made with the idea that tacking masteries onto GMWT is the next best option. Other ideas are certainly welcome.

JoDF, by the way, is nice, but hardly legendary. If they were to buff it a bit, I wouldn’t have a problem with it remaining a legendary trait. Also, if they were to fix WotW while adding the masteries to it, that would be nice as well… I just don’t see that happening.

I guess I’d just like to see our “legendary” traits become more legendary.

I just think that if you tie Masteries to GMWT, then WoTW is even less useful. Even WoTW has masteries tagged on, at GMWT is still situationally useful. WoTW would need an overhaul to make it a viable legendary if it doesn't carry masteries.

Originally Posted by geoboy

I just think that if you tie Masteries to GMWT, then WoTW is even less useful ..... WoTW would need an overhaul to make it a viable legendary if it doesn't carry masteries.

I completely agree. WotW would need an overhaul to be made anything other than highly situational. Which is why we shouldn't just tack masteries onto it and call it good. Doing so just gives the devs a reason to leave it alone...because it won't be quite as horrendous anymore. I think regero put it best-

Originally Posted by Regero

...It is a poor and temporary fix that does not make WotW good, but just turns it into a different trait entirely and forces us to use it.

It's a bad situation regardless of how you think about it.

No matter which legendary you tack it onto, it instantly becomes a set it and forget it trait. (much like efficient thrust is about to become). The only real situation to this is to take any traits that you can't live without and make them trainable skills. We've been tied into 5/1/1 trait setups since class inception, and now we're tied to 1 legendary skill.

I think that adding the masteries to GMWT is better for wardens, but worse for the class. (if that makes any sense)

/signed

Gotta have my masteries.

/signed

Win.

Understood, Geo. Let's hope that Orion can come to see that some things need to be trainable skills.

Originally Posted by Master_Valandil

Dear Orion,

The warden community thanks you immensely for the work you've already done on our class. Although it wasn't a huge revamp, we now have solutions to numerous problems and will be better suited to perform our primary role as a tank. Our legacies still need some work, a secondary role would be nice, and fist is still a mess, but all that can be dealt with. I have one last request...

This is a petition to have Warden Masteries added to the GMWT trait, rather than Way of the Warden. It just makes sense that after mastering our weapons training we should get our masteries as well, and would allow 99% of wardens to slot all 3 of their favorite legendary traits.

Credit to LtDiablo: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...83#post5508883

/Signed

I know this is done being discussed.. but /signed.

(Pardon my tardiness, I haven't been on the boards for a while as I have taken a break form LoTRO until recently)

I just read the Dev Diary. And while I was happy to see that I was no longer going to have to equip 3 traits for my masteries (all of which are required IMO) I wasn't happy to see them put onto WoTW.

1. I sort of feel like I'm losing a Legendary and gaining 3 regular traits...as I almost never slot WoTW
2. At least they didn't make a separate Legendary for them... having them on WoTW is better than that alternative.
3. I would prefer them on GMWT as I almost always trait it.
4. As they are pretty much required for a warden to function, I really think that the fairest route to warden players would be to make them trainable skills. I don't see why that is off the table, as it is now Wardens are essentially down 3 traits.

Originally Posted by geoboy

I just think that if you tie Masteries to GMWT, then WoTW is even less useful. Even WoTW has masteries tagged on, at GMWT is still situationally useful. WoTW would need an overhaul to make it a viable legendary if it doesn't carry masteries.

Yes, but not really improving it and instead just making it necessary by moving the masteries to it doesn't really fix the problem of the core part of WoTW only being useful in some situations.

As it is now, I'm basically going to be tied to this legendary and forced to drop one of the ones I prefer. The same would go for putting it on GMWT (although it's a better alternative IMO).

Really..the best solution would be to stop forcing wardens into a certain set of traits by requiring them to use those traits in order to unlock a CORE part of the class. As we all know, a Warden w/o masteries isn't much of a warden at all.

What I don't get is..if masteries are such a core part of the class, why aren't they trainable skills?

I realize what the devs are trying to do here, I just don't like the way they are going about it.

Honestly, if they wanted to fix this (without making them into trainable skills) they'd just combine all the mastery traits into one regular (non-leg) trait.

I suppose that I should put my Warden in my sig before posting here, but I'm too lazy to do so, so here goes...

I totally understand wanting the masteries on GMWT, since it seems like nearly every Warden uses GMWT.

However... if my three most essential class traits were being put on a non-capstone legendary skill, I think I'd be pretty happy about it regardless of the legendary that they ended up on. Free up three class trait slots? Heck yeah! "Force" me to use a legendary that has been improved? Okay, I'll learn to live with it.

I'll trade you the seeming nerf to two of the Champ legendary skills (Controlled Burn and Ferocious Strikes*) for three class traits becoming essentially passive traits on a single legendary skill.

*Technically not so much a nerf to the legendary, as the complete removal of a skill that many Champs rely on in an effort to make the legendary seem more useful.

Originally Posted by Lestache

However... if my three most essential class traits were being put on a non-capstone legendary skill, I think I'd be pretty happy about it regardless of the legendary that they ended up on. Free up three class trait slots? Heck yeah! "Force" me to use a legendary that has been improved? Okay, I'll learn to live with it.

It’s a bit more complicated.
If masteries are added to WotW everyone that doesn’t slot that now (and that seems to be the majority) will lose JoDF or GMWT or DC with Isengard.
For me that would be JoDF, and it works great for me as a tool to get initial aggro in groups.
So I personally don’t want to have masteries on WotW as I would lose a legendary that is important to my playstyle.

The bigger picture: Here and in other threads with related topics people mention how they find WotW useful or even DC or that they are not really excited about JoDF. That’s good as it means we have variety in our legendaries, there are different ways to be successful.

If masteries are added to a legendary we will get some more variety in our class traits but we will lose variety in our legendary traits. Some people like that, others would prefer to keep their legendaries. While the two or three class trait slots are nice, they can't give you back the functionality of JoDF or DC.

That’s not an improvement, just a step sideways.

Originally Posted by Araelinnis

If masteries are added to WotW everyone that doesn’t slot that now (and that seems to be the majority) will lose JoDF or GMWT or DC with Isengard.

or a Cap trait...

Which makes me think of another crazy idea (since the thread is back open ), how about adding Masteries to the Cap trait (and I mean, for any of the caps, add all six masteries). How many people here run a 4/... type build ?

Originally Posted by Fleez

or a Cap trait...

Which makes me think of another crazy idea (since the thread is back open ), how about adding Masteries to the Cap trait (and I mean, for any of the caps, add all six masteries). How many people here run a 4/... type build ?

The only problem with adding it to Cap traits is now you basically force a cookie cutter build, either you'll be all 5 in shield or all 5 in spear. There's no room for those quirky people who want to play their silly trait setup and still get Masteries.

Regarding the OP though, you know my answer

I would prefer the masteries on GMWT, to WotW.

However, they really should be basic skills IMO.