Thread: Petition: Add Masteries to GMWT

/sign
__________

Originally Posted by tomiathon

and...people really trait JoDF or DC? /boggle

people really trait anything other than GMWT, JoDF and capstone? /boggle

:P


PS. JoDF is our best DPS skill by miles, and great for gathering adds (especially with the new set bonus from OD). I'll be very sad if come RoI I can never use it ever again :s . Wtb the change proposed in this thread, or an extra Legendary trait slot.

/signed
12345

/signed

12345

/signed

It makes sense to me for masteries to be on GMWT. Chances are you'll earn that easier and earlier than the quest line which gives WotW and thus be able to start using and learning how to play the class properly sooner.

Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati

[...] or an extra Legendary trait slot.

That'd work too. Given that virtues sound like they may be going up to 12 this could be on the cards I guess?

/signed

all said

I'd love to see them on GMWT. I'd also take JoDF being moved to a trainable skill, as an alternative.

WotW does need some love to make it a considerable option, but like others have said, adding masteries just turns WotW itself into the useless extra we get for taking the Masteries legacy...

/Sign, WOTW is just not nice enough

/signed

i have never posted before but this is worth voting for.

/signed

time for us wardens to have some say into the change of traits

/signed......

/signed

rep to op

/signed

Like a boss.

/signed

gmwt > wotw any day

/signed

All said above.

/signed reluctantly

How many people here that bash WotW have actually used it? You guys seem to think that JoDF and DC are the greatest thing since sliced bread. JoDF is useless in content that requires CC or any place with a slight incline / decline. DC is a crutch - I like the reflect buff though. It would be easier if it was on GMWT but I'll probably still trait

Shield/Spear Cap
GMWT
WotW

Originally Posted by Mysterion

/signed reluctantly

How many people here that bash WotW have actually used it? You guys seem to think that JoDF and DC are the greatest thing since sliced bread. JoDF is useless in content that requires CC or any place with a slight incline / decline. DC is a crutch - I like the reflect buff though. It would be easier if it was on GMWT but I'll probably still trait

Shield/Spear Cap
GMWT
WotW

I agree that DC is awful for almost everything, but WotW is pretty dire too as things stand. It's not the idea of the skill that people don't like, it's the fact that it goes unaffected by legacies.
When tanking we need icpr and avoidance (no avoidance on WotW and less icpr) when DPSing we want the fastest attack speed possible (higher in Recklessness rather than WotW).

JoDF does up to 10k damage and is our only decent aoe skill, it's incredibly useful for both tanking and DPSing.

Give me a ranged aoe and stance dancing over WotW any day of the week.


PS. As for incline and CC on JoDF once you get it it is very easy to know exactly what is going to get hit. Not only that you can hit things above and below you too.

/signed

You have my spear.

Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati

I agree that DC is awful for almost everything, but WotW is pretty dire too as things stand. It's not the idea of the skill that people don't like, it's the fact that it goes unaffected by legacies.
When tanking we need icpr and avoidance (no avoidance on WotW and less icpr) when DPSing we want the fastest attack speed possible (higher in Recklessness rather than WotW).

JoDF does up to 10k damage and is our only decent aoe skill, it's incredibly useful for both tanking and DPSing.

Give me a ranged aoe and stance dancing over WotW any day of the week.


PS. As for incline and CC on JoDF once you get it it is very easy to know exactly what is going to get hit. Not only that you can hit things above and below you too.

As of right now the block of conservation is wasted and evade probably is if I hit one DoW. What about a fight like Ferndur where it is nice to have the ICMR, ICPR, -attack duration and +melee damage for a really long fight? That is where WotW shines, recklessness on steroids. It would be nice if legacies affected it but there are fights where it is more useful to use WotW instead of JoDF or DC. There are some group makeups where I do not care about power in the least bit. And the +100 ipcr from legacy isn't a huge loss for the benefits of WotW.

I would give the stance a try before considering it completely useless, I'm doubting that most wardens have even given it more than a cursory glance. Probably worked hard to get it, traited it, started a fight with a landscape mob clicked stance, killed mob realized they were on a 15 minute CD and said...well that sucked....retrait. That was my first experience with it. Once I heard it was being bundled with masteries I traited it b/c if it ends up with the masteries it will be perma slotted and I needed to get used to it. Next time you run NCF (couldron fight), LT (Ferndur fight), or OD (wound / disease boss) try it out.

When caps get bumped and stances change we'll see what the status quo of tanking stances turns into but if the changes do stay the way they are proposed - better get used to WotW . And using determination for tanking more.

I'm pretty sure that JoDF always fires on a flat plane from your position if facing an incline it would shoot into the hill and not parallel to the incline. I've seen it fly over more mobs heads b/c i'm slight higher plane than them many times. And is mostly worthless in an environment where CC is required. Works great in HoC though, I'll give you that but I can easily live without it if WotW gets masteries.

Originally Posted by Mysterion

I would give the stance a try before considering it completely useless, I'm doubting that most wardens have even given it more than a cursory glance. Probably worked hard to get it, traited it, started a fight with a landscape mob clicked stance, killed mob realized they were on a 15 minute CD and said...well that sucked....retrait. That was my first experience with it. Once I heard it was being bundled with masteries I traited it b/c if it ends up with the masteries it will be perma slotted and I needed to get used to it. Next time you run NCF (couldron fight), LT (Ferndur fight), or OD (wound / disease boss) try it out.

Well I can say right now that I tested it extensively in Moria and I just find it to be a waste of a slot. It tries to be a jack of all trades while doing nothing best.
If as you say you have a group where you don't need icpr then surely it's best to run legacied recklessness (it is!). As for the icmr element well the amount of use Determination gets shows the minor effect that icmr really has atm, that's why they're changing the stance after all.

Granted it has (very) limited situational use, but even in those instances it is absolutely fine to go with normal stances and doesn't really change much. I've never completed something and thought: 'you know what that would be easier with WotW. Let's drop my only genuinely high damage dealing skill for all the trash in the instance and trait it!'

IF they made it work with legacies then it would become a worthwhile skill, as it is I just find that giving up our only decent aoe is not worth what are essentially sideways steps, and in some cases backwards.

As for JoDF targetting, if you line it up correctly and have a target above you actually targetted, then it will affect mobs on the level of your enemy rather than your level.

EDIT:
Jus wanted to add that of course everyone has their own playstyles, I ve seen guys using DC over and over while tanking, and I've seen Wardens using WotW for all boss encounters. It's great that there is some choice to be had with legendaries on a warden, but I think the issue here is why force a minority choice onto everybody?
Jus by looking back at this thread it is easy to see how many people like or don't like WotW

Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati

Well I can say right now that I tested it extensively in Moria and I just find it to be a waste of a slot. It tries to be a jack of all trades while doing nothing best.

I'm assuming most wardens besides you haven't given it more than cursory glance.

Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati

If as you say you have a group where you don't need icpr then surely it's best to run legacied recklessness (it is!). As for the icmr element well the amount of use Determination gets shows the minor effect that icmr really has atm, that's why they're changing the stance after all.

Even if I'm in a group that can support my power bar I doubt a group could sustain that running in recklessness. So recklessness with IPCR/ICMR works for me.

Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati

Granted it has (very) limited situational use, but even in those instances it is absolutely fine to go with normal stances and doesn't really change much. I've never completed something and thought: 'you know what that would be easier with WotW. Let's drop my only genuinely high damage dealing skill for all the trash in the instance and trait it!'

Sure but DC or JoDF are also situational. I never think hey JoDF would really turn the tide in this fight with constant morale reducing clouds and power issues. JoDF is a nice way to start a multi-mob pull where CC isn't required. I'm sure its dps is monstrous compared to the rest of our amazing DPS skills. I bring along other classes for my dps, even traited red.

Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati

IF they made it work with legacies then it would become a worthwhile skill, as it is I just find that giving up our only decent aoe is not worth what are essentially sideways steps, and in some cases backwards.

Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati

As for JoDF targetting, if you line it up correctly and have a target above you actually targetted, then it will affect mobs on the level of your enemy rather than your level.

Targeting doesn't matter in my experience and I have gotten lucky and hit the target on a slightly different plane than I'm on. But I can think of a ton of times I've thrown the Jav and missed all targets b/c they are just a little too much lower/higher than me.

Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati

EDIT:
Jus wanted to add that of course everyone has their own playstyles, I ve seen guys using DC over and over while tanking, and I've seen Wardens using WotW for all boss encounters. It's great that there is some choice to be had with legendaries on a warden, but I think the issue here is why force a minority choice onto everybody?
Jus by looking back at this thread it is easy to see how many people like or don't like WotW

My argument has been that most here that have signed have more or less never used WotW and just sign to put it on GMWT b/c it will keep there current trait build (legendaries) the same post update. Ultimately I have always thought masteries and jodf should be trainable skills because masteries are required for high level play and JoDF is gimmicky and not "Legend...wait for it....ary". Neither of those are happening oh well.

TL;DR; WotW isn't as bad as you think...give it a try.

/signed

morewords...

Please just keep this to a /signed or /not signed (and maybe very short the reason).. No discussions here. You dont start one on an actual petition you get handed IRL, do you?

I'm on the fence with this one. Taking an already strong trait and making it stronger? I can't see that happening. What they need to do is to make WoTW useful, and make masteries trained skills.


regardless of which legendary they are tacked on to, that's one less legendary slot we have to customize our build.

/unsigned

changing /signed reluctantly to /unsigned

Who cares what legendary they get slapped on, they should be trainable starting skills starting in the mid 30ies.

Lol some are arguing that it makes a strong trait even stronger. Hell if your going to do as intended then leave it alone. And dont remove them from class traits. If you choose to listen to the OP


/signed.

/Signed

The other good option would be to make them trained skills

I think a better idea would be making the masteries traineable skills AND.
setting the class traits to include the skill efects on such masteries so...

if you trait shield you have a chance to trigger the block bonus on any shield mastery.
if trait spear you could have dmg added on your spear masteries.
if you trait fist you get the aggro/dot on fist masteries.

I'd sign for that...
(and to remove the silly magical-like effects on the masteries too)

Originally Posted by geoboy

I'm on the fence with this one. Taking an already strong trait and making it stronger? I can't see that happening. What they need to do is to make WoTW useful, and make masteries trained skills.


regardless of which legendary they are tacked on to, that's one less legendary slot we have to customize our build.

/unsigned

This is exactly my stance. Masteries should not be optional. They are an integral part of Warden play on many levels, enabling us to do things we simply can't without them (i.e. conviction kites) and making everything else we do vastly better - DPS, heal, threat, etc.

I'd almost rather have them stay on the class traits so that people won't be mollified by the half-measure we're getting.

/signed

If making masteries trainable and somehow buffing WotW simply aren't plausible, then I see this as being the next best thing... attaching masteries to GMWT instead of WotW.

Maybe in RoI we'll get a 4th legendary slot and all this will be moot, but it's good we're putting a spotlight on the issue regardless. Thanks to the OP for starting this thread.

I'm fine with adding masteries to WotW. However, adding it to GMWT would be even more better.


But if you could make the masteries trainable skills, that would make things much much more appreciated.


Regardless...

/signed

/not signed

Masteries should be trainable, and not tied to traits. Or if it has to go on WotW please put the B/E buffs from Conservation on WotW, and the buffs from the legacies for the stances on WotW.

/signed

DC/GMWT/SPEAR for the moors
JoDF/GMWT/SPEAR for raids

I trait WotW already, but I don't want to be like everyone else. Tacking masteries onto GMWT would encourage more differentiation in this regard.

/Signed

I agree that having masteries as trainable skills would be best, but remember that Orion came right out and said that would NOT be happening. I think we should certainly keep fighting for it, but as it wont be happening with RoI we might as well make do with what we can.

I would prefer masteries tacked to GMWT rather than WotW because that would make them significantly more passive in nature, more people trait GMWT than WotW. It would also let new wardens get them easier and likely earlier.

Remember, this is not about making a trait more powerful, this is about addressing some issues with masteries. Putting them all onto WotW is a better idea than having them as 3 separate class traits, but that does not address the fact that WotW is a poor legendary trait (not useless, not horrible, its just not as good as a skill with a 15 minute CD should be imo). It is a poor and temporary fix that does not make WotW good, but just turns it into a different trait entirely and forces us to use it.

/re-signed

Oh heck yeah!

/SIGNED

/not signed

I think it's patently clear, due to several factors, (the initial way in which masteries where aquired through normal traits, Orions refusal to make them trainable, and his moving them to such a sub-par trait), that the Masteries have been and still are far more integral to our class than the devs ever wished them to be.

Fixing that so that masteries become a nice extra instead of a mandetory requierment is going to take far mor time and effort than the devs can give wardens right now.

TBH i'd like at some point to see things reach the point where they can outright nuke masteries and we won't care becuase we no longer need them. When a handful of abilities, (optional or otherwise), are the make and break part of a class to this degree somthing is intrinisclly wrong with them IMHO.

/signed

I would much rather have them as trainable skills, since I consider them a necessary part of playing a Warden. Right now, I ask my fellows to hold back for a second. How much longer would they have to wait if I had to build WC + EoB + Conviction manually? 5 seconds... maybe 8? I seriously doubt I'd be able to find a group that wanted me to tank if they had to wait that long before wading in.

However, I would rather have them as 1 Legendary trait than 3 class traits. That being said, I always have GMWT slotted and haven't given WotW much of a shot. If I need ICPR, then I prefer Conservation (legacy or not); if I need DPS, then legacied Recklessness works better for me.

/signed
I am a user of WoTW, and I like it. But if the CD stays at 15m, this would be making things worse than they already are. This is like telling wardens they can only be good players once every 15 minutes. If the CD is changed as well, then count me as unsigned. But at the same time, it would free up 3 class slots, which would allow me to get a +10% threat gen, so i wouldn't need to slot DC for emergencies like being revived in the middle of the fight with 0% agro. Then I would be able to slot WoTW or GMWT.
On a side note, JoDF has little us to me as a tank because 200-500 damage every 30 (or 45 if your shield) seconds isn't going to help my threat gen very much when I've got champs, rks and hunts making my AOE dps almost irrelevant.
But I do slot JoDF every now and then for occasions where its beneficial to whatever my role is like 3-mans, questing etc.
To promote the most flexibility in how the warden makes its build, i do think putting the masteries onto GMWT is best. This way class traits can be used to influence build much more freely and determine whether or not the other legendaries (DC, JoDF, WoTW) are needed.

Originally Posted by Davemathews

/signed
I am a user of WoTW, and I like it. But if the CD stays at 15m, this would be making things worse than they already are. This is like telling wardens they can only be good players once every 15 minutes.

Slotting the trait will give you access to all three masteries. I don't think you actually have to have the stance active to use the masteries. At least I assume that's not the case or the forums would be on fire.