Or he could be the only Champ who's consistently using Ebbing Ire on the tank.
*shrugs*
Aggro is a horrible indicator of DPS no matter how you look at it. Way too many factors involved.
Anyway, continue the offense vs. defense debate!
If he did that (assuming there was a dedicated tank on the runs he speaks of), then the other Champs should never ever grab aggro of the tank, especially not, if the other champs were really doing that much less DMG as he claims they did.
here's mine, only need good necklace and another sarenzer and i am all set
One thing I'd recommend on your build though is toning down that vitality in favour of agility or raw moral (if you prefer to hover over 7,1k+ moral), so you still see your vitality pushed when buffed by a captain. You'll probably have to change legacies and/or traits to achieve this. And do have the symbols of battle in the crafted relic slots of your LI's? If not, I'd highly recommend to also go for that.
DPS can only be measured with Combat Analysis/CSstats/some other parser. Aggro going in wrong directions says there is a bad tank or champ without much knowledge of aggro management in a group.
Dying is yet another matter. I will, for example, usually die last in my group mainly because I always run with dedicated minstrel admirer
Offense vs defense debate? I value both.
My MD is capped with a scroll, my inc. heal. is -11% in fervour and I was told more than once by my healers I am easier to keep up than most champs they know. But then, I spend fortune on pots and do whatever I can to make their job easier (I have mini alt and I know perfectly well whats it like to heal reckless champs).
If I could get 10-11k offense and 5k crit without sacrificing anything else I see as important I would, of course. But since there is no way to do that (yet) I am trying to keep both at some decent level (9k and 4k are decent for me).
Btw saying that ICMR is going to save a champ in raid is laughable, I would not even comment on that.
I don't really see problem with that if you have some old relics, you can cap incoming healing, get really high melee offence and enouh melee crit and melee defence to cap them in groups and still have nice morale. I actually see it more as morale/power vs defence vs offence. Since I really fail to see point of stacking morale over much 7k(besides looking good in 21st hall), I have went high enough with my offence and defence so I can cap or get close to cap on them, while I have bit less morale.
Since I really fail to see point of stacking morale over much 7k(besides looking good in 21st hall), I have went high enough with my offence and defence so I can cap or get close to cap on them, while I have bit less morale.
There's not a whole lot of reason for PvE, honestly. However, for solo PvP there's a lot of reason. I find PvP is more demanding than any PvE in this game, so I build for PvP mostly while allowing myself to do as close to 100% in PvE as I can without too much hassle.
That said, as Illy stated, I swap gear all the time, so nothing is set in stone. The build I posted just happens to be my generic PvE build.
DPS can only be measured with Combat Analysis/CSstats/some other parser. Aggro going in wrong directions says there is a bad tank or champ without much knowledge of aggro management in a group.
Dying is yet another matter. I will, for example, usually die last in my group mainly because I always run with dedicated minstrel admirer
That depends on wheter there is a dedicated tank in your group setup and what kind of content you are doing. Any kind of 3/6 man content, I prefer the tank (if present) to grab his two handed sword and do some DMG instead of even trying to grab aggro of anything.
I agree that DPS can only precisely be measured with a solid parser, but if the run is an all out DPS fest, aggro can still indicate the ranking of the DPS classes in terms of DPS output, if no one is heavily manipulating the aggro table directly. Let's assume turtle or SG without a tank class (say 4 Champs and 2 Cappies) or the first phase of the LT fight ... the one doing the most DPS will likely also be the one to have aggro (not always if there's a hunter in strength stance, but in that case having aggro on Morskor is a pretty solid measure that you are ahead of the hunter DPS wise). Not to say DPS is a good/solid measurement for DPS, but it can still give you a 'feel' for the relative perfomance of the DPS classes in your run, if it's all out DPS.
For the rest of your post, that's pretty much how I see things. You've always got to balance offense vs defense. Leaning way too much in either direction won't do much good.
There are a lot of classes that have a lot of threat modifiers out there, including some that affect the rest of the group. Wardens can throw off all kinds of numbers with their group threat steals, Hunters using books and/or Strength/Endurance, Burglars using Provoke, obviously our Ires. It's a very clumsy way to measure it since all kinds of factors that nobody can really guarantee the other people aren't using without directly telling them not to to throw things off.
I'll agree that Morskor isn't that bad an example, but really, aggro should never be a definitive measurement. It's easy to use it because it's convenient, but don't let that get away with you. It's just a sloppy system.
There are a lot of classes that have a lot of threat modifiers out there, including some that affect the rest of the group. Wardens can throw off all kinds of numbers with their group threat steals, Hunters using books and/or Strength/Endurance, Burglars using Provoke, obviously our Ires. It's a very clumsy way to measure it since all kinds of factors that nobody can really guarantee the other people aren't using without directly telling them not to to throw things off.
I'll agree that Morskor isn't that bad an example, but really, aggro should never be a definitive measurement. It's easy to use it because it's convenient, but don't let that get away with you. It's just a sloppy system.
Agreed. I'd never use Aggro as a definitive measurement. If I wanted to actually measure DPS, I'd grab a parser any day.
In the first place I used the aggro example in response to that guy insisiting that moria/mirkwood armor is THE baddest idea ever, just because he sees champions in a moria/mirkwood mix die left and right to him all the time, while he is standing there doing more DMG and being way easier to keep alive all at the same time ... and that just for the reason he is not wearing moria armor.
If he was really putting out more DPS than the other champs and being more sturdy at the same time, the question is, why would the other champs just die around him in each and every single run? There is like 2 possibilities ... 1) he actually has the aggro of anything, is assigned to be the main tank, and all other champs die due to bad positioning (becasue they eat avoidable AoE DMG all the time, while the tank is getting the heal focus) - that's got nothing to do with the armor ... 2) he is just not having aggro from anything and that's why everyone dies before he bites the dust. You choose which scenario is more likely, if this happens all the time time with all champs he ever plays with.
I'm pretty confident he doesn't constantly ebb to the other champs, as I don't see too much understanding of the class in a guy, that tells others that the annuminas cloak is the best end game champ cloak, that padlocks are any good for a champ (despite of just bolstering power) and that ICMR is better than crit rating.
EDIT: Even if he was not the main tank and everyone besides him keeps dying, that's still most likely due to bad positioning and not due to wearing a piece of moria armor
second page of stat sheet with stuff i want to change:
the earring: need another sarenzer
the necklace: need new Odothuilan necklace. same stat just 8 more might. (and its bloo!)
the bow: +30 is nice, but i could use a little extra DPS from some lv60+ bow lol
stat bought:
50 might
0 agil
30 vit
So once i have ~2000TP again, i'll gain 50 agil + 20 vit.
Its 4 moria + 2 hele. i wouldve used the berserker if i have enough money to buy Mirkwood xpac, but i dont.
i think this setup would carry me over to RoI just fine.
Relics:
Weapon:
7.5% dev mag, +520 crit, 112 icmr
22 agi, 520crit
2.5% AD, 125 morale, 480 MD
symbol of battle
Rune: 1820 inc. healing, 600 MD
230 morale, 650 offence
1200 inc. healing, 480 tact def
2.5% AD, 125 morale, 480 MD
symbol of battle
To the poster who said moria gear is useless, you just happen to fellow with a lot of bad players. Dying has nothing to do with class or armor choice. Not potting, bad positioning, breaking cc, pulling aggro, generally clueless about their own skills/other class skills/boss mechanics or incompetency all contribute to dying. Bad armor and bad players are totally different things.
Anvil and Jewel are swappable items. I do have both and i swap them depending on situation. In instances where I will be taking melee damage, I prefer anvil. In other where there's lots of aoe tactical, jewel is a nice alternative. Personally I think stacking morale reduces your efficiency....somewhat. As much as I like more morale, I'd like more offence/crit/defence/inc. healing too. But as long as you can find the balance that works for you, who am I to judge?
My long term goal is to aim for 5 piece OD (have 2 piece atm) and vol 3 leggings. I know many say it will be obsolete in 3 months but we have not seen the new set bonuses yet. For all we know, it could be a fail set like DN or Hele. Unless there is a definite indication that there will be a superior set, I will stick to OD even tho the stats will undoubtedly be inferior. Stats do not define a class. The skills (and their modifiers) do. Which is why I believe many will still stick to BG if Isengard does not offer anything better.
My basic build, I swap armor pieces around so much depending on what i'm doing or what the fight is, not linking all those setups/pieces of gear :P
Virtues and more of my stats
Legendary items and rest of my stats Rune and 2h axe are a work in progress. Hope to get another 1st age this week that has more majors on it for a better single target weapon.
Constructive criticism welcome
Edit: if the print is too small to see in the screen shots here are the direct links.
Joke armor lol if u get damage and if u need that inc morale so bad u are not doing it right a tank schould get extra morale. or u need to roll another toon that does that
Inc Healing: Who cares about inc. healing? oO Something about -18% in fervour. Vote for good minstrels!!!!
Every "good" minstrel I know will heal the tank, then second healer, then some probably more useful class than champions. In most raids you are at the bottom of the minstrel priority list. Including my own, and my main is a champ and I love the class to pieces.
I care about my inc healing because I care not to stress my healers more than they have to be.
Originally Posted by Witalik
Joke armor lol if u get damage and if u need that inc morale so bad u are not doing it right a tank schould get extra morale. or u need to roll another toon that does that
Extra morale if not overdone at the expense of other important stats is good. Not only tank needs high morale, especially in raids where everyone takes some kind of damage (AoEs, puddles, whatnot).
Every "good" minstrel I know will heal the tank, then second healer, then some probably more useful class than champions. In most raids you are at the bottom of the minstrel priority list. Including my own, and my main is a champ and I love the class to pieces.
I care about my inc healing because I care not to stress my healers more than they have to be.
More incoming healing and better defences > you need less healing > minstrel has more time > more time to keep BoW up all time > More DPS.
I'll take screenshots later, but does anyone have a good build if you are stuck without old relics like verdant gems and profound runes of action? I basically rolled my champ the day after update 2 came out (basically after those were gone) because I had been working on my other classes up until then to get them old relics that I felt I wanted on them (adamant gem of dreams, power/morale runes since there was no true rune of the two trees yet). Been 65 for a while but still working on my build. Hoping for suggestions:
Armor: Either 4 Moria, Daervunn Shoulder (Quest) and Helm of High Hollin (Helm), or 2 Moria + Volume 3 gold pants + Dragonscale gloves
Cloak: Egnion Clog (Gotta go farm 2.6.8 Cloak)
Weapon Relics: setting: 230 morale/650 offense, gem: 230 morale/210 power/260 crit defense, crafted: 390 melee off/390 melee crit (empty rune slot)
Rune relics: setting: 250 morale/1300 incoming healing/ICPR, gem: 22 agil/520 crit, rune: 22 will/520 evade/-2.5% AD, crafted: 390 melee/390 melee crit
Jewelry: 2x HoN bracelet, 2x HoN ring, Ranger Token of Battle or Forgotten Jewel, 1 Mirkwood Barter Earring, 1 Algraig Barter earring, Mirkwood Crafted necklace
At the moment have approximately:
Morale: 6950
Power: 2100
M/A/V: 620/550/600
Melee Defense: 2500
Incoming Healing: 4400
Melee Offense: 7800 (yeah low...maybe change the crit gem to a melee offense? Or is capping crit with captain buffs more important).
Melee Crit: 3900
AD: -2.5%
1: Pointy helm for head butting trolls in the junk.
2: Lady-killin' beard. Don't leave home without it.
3: Great Barrows armor dyed crimson, 'cause even at L65 it's the baddest-looking armor in the game.
4: Big, honkin' axe named Big Chief Smashumface. Westernesse + Orc (obviously).
5: Orc-stomping boots. Steel toed, steel shod. Probably steel laced, too. Can't be too careful.
OH MY GOD!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. I have the steady on the verge of breaking down laughing thing going right now.....that was LEGEN.....wait for it......DARY!!!!
i dont wanna make you lose fate but took me about 25 runs (was in group with guys dont needing it so i got it straight away)
*** But in you're build pics i see you have 1 sarenzer ? ***
but what is that neck item guys are talking about from new instances ?
I don't feel too bad about my 9 or 10 runs then. 3 dropped and I got 2 of 3. In the end I was sick of that instance though.
As for my build I also switch stuffs around alot, but currently my build is something like:
7500 morale
2100 power
8.7K MOff
3.5k MCrit
2k MDef
2.8k Inc Heal
650 Might
600 Agi
600 Vit
Disciple, Valor, Determination, Justice, and Innocence.
Most of the time I also wear Epic Leg, Gloaming BP, and sometime Gloaming Glove in that build(Agi drop by 20 or so with glove) so I can take a pretty good beating. I am still working on it but I would like to keep the stats around there and raise Mdef to around 3.5k. If I can get Curucham from LT then I can drop Determination and add Zeal, but without them old -AD relics I would have to make some sacrifice to get the other 800-900 Mdef.
Last edited by Kakita_EC; Jun 28 2011 at 03:51 PM.
Reason: Forgot to add my build
One question to all who've posted their builds - are you using stat tomes or not? If so, which ones? I couldn't care less about trying to replicate anyone's build here, I'm just curious as to whose build is based solely off of in-game items and whose isn't.
One question to all who've posted their builds - are you using stat tomes or not? If so, which ones? I couldn't care less about trying to replicate anyone's build here, I'm just curious as to whose build is based solely off of in-game items and whose isn't.
My build is with a full 50 might vit agility stat tomes which cough supposedly are in game items (they don't even pretend with that anymore apparently). I also used 1 store only setting since it seemed the best replacement for the old verdant gems (incoming healing, icpr, 250 morale). I did wait for the stats at least to be on sale for I believe 50% when they used to do turbine tuesday deals, but they haven't had them lately. Of course without access to old relics I definitely have one of the less impressive builds posted here I think -_-
One question to all who've posted their builds - are you using stat tomes or not? If so, which ones? I couldn't care less about trying to replicate anyone's build here, I'm just curious as to whose build is based solely off of in-game items and whose isn't.
i dont wanna make you lose fate but took me about 25 runs (was in group with guys dont needing it so i got it straight away)
*** But in you're build pics i see you have 1 sarenzer ? ***
but what is that neck item guys are talking about from new instances ?
2nd attempt of NCF T2 after it being released: "oh wow, nice earring. oh wow! nice stat!" /win_roll
3rd and maybe 4th attempt i was just helping kinnies. or maybe 5th. i cant remember if ever seen it drop because by then i wasn't even sure its not unique.
when i said 11x, that begins probably the 5th or 6th run when i start doing that instance JUST for Sarenzers.
The neck item is Skirmish Jewelleries vendor; Odothuillan jewellries. 4k skirm, a couple veteran 3rd mark, and 6 odo marks from Icy Crevace or Assault at Dawn.
One question to all who've posted their builds - are you using stat tomes or not? If so, which ones? I couldn't care less about trying to replicate anyone's build here, I'm just curious as to whose build is based solely off of in-game items and whose isn't.
One question to all who've posted their builds - are you using stat tomes or not? If so, which ones? I couldn't care less about trying to replicate anyone's build here, I'm just curious as to whose build is based solely off of in-game items and whose isn't.
One question to all who've posted their builds - are you using stat tomes or not? If so, which ones? I couldn't care less about trying to replicate anyone's build here, I'm just curious as to whose build is based solely off of in-game items and whose isn't.
I don't use any stat tome. I never found one in game, and because i'm not a friend of pay-to-win, i never bought one in the shop.
One question to all who've posted their builds - are you using stat tomes or not? If so, which ones? I couldn't care less about trying to replicate anyone's build here, I'm just curious as to whose build is based solely off of in-game items and whose isn't.
One question to all who've posted their builds - are you using stat tomes or not? If so, which ones? I couldn't care less about trying to replicate anyone's build here, I'm just curious as to whose build is based solely off of in-game items and whose isn't.
Only 50+ vitality. Waiting for some offers for other tomes, not going to bother otherwise, since that little increase on stat won't give me much.
Well this build is a bit different, more of a PVE single target build. I also have an AOE PVE BG set build but similar builds have already been posted a million times.
For this build I have around 25% MO, but then instead of going for the cap, I slot in -5% attack duration runes which imo give more dps in the long run. I also like to have crit a bit above cap for those instances where mobs seems to have a fair amount of crit def/over leveled mobs. Still working on getting a 1h 1st age with 4+ pool a, but the current weapon will do for now. I will slot in chest and legs from OD when I get them (2nd toon I am taking to 6/6 OD, whew). Don't really go for morale stacking but instead try to keep inc healing around 14-15%.
Last edited by swordmonkey; Jun 29 2011 at 09:15 PM.
-Findaratos mini ~ Shock and Awe
-Fingolfinfelagund champ ~ Professional Awesome
For raids n stuff I tend to go with:
Berserker head and boots for the +20 agi/vit bonus
hele gloves for inc healing
blademaster pants/epic pants
ladys chest and ladys shoulder
Jewlery will be:
2 sarenzer
2 ring of brawling,
2 bracelets of brawling
jewelled thingy from new skirms
Star Necklace
This puts my morale at 7100
power around 2100
melee offense 8500
melee defense 2k
incoming healing 4500
melee crit around 3300
M/A/V all at or 10ish above 600, will n fate around 150 each
For PVP I am currently trying:
berserker shoulder n boots for +20 each stat
3 peice of swiftblade for the shadow defense (for wargs)
hele helm for the inc healing (thinking about swapping out, cuz i dont think inc healing is as important in pvp, but idk)
Jewelry will be:
2 sarenzer
2 rings of brawling
1 bracelet of brawling,and the tanking ring from NCF t2 challenge(for reflect)
The brass Anvil
Star necklace
This puts my morale about 7k
power at 1.9k
melee offense at 8000
melee defense at 3500-4000
incoming healing at 3700
melee crit at 3300
Might 620ish
Vit 590
Agi 540
Here's my champ with OD set, I swap in BG set + dev helm for AOE situations! I can cap agi with food and captains. I basically raid on my champ and that's all I do so my build is dependent on basically always having captain buffs so I work more on offence and try to keep my inc healing decent for the healers. Also, put in icpr relics because I was having major power issues, wish I could put -attack duration runes in but that only makes the power problems worse for now.
Kamriel 75 CHN, Kamsterr 75 LM, HideHobitsHere Bear Tank Extraordinaire
Pretty much the build I want
Except some settings and some jewels. Not using 5OD + Arthar? Would be really awesome imo. Or yet to get the leg piece in OD?
Pretty much the build I want
Except some settings and some jewels. Not using 5OD + Arthar? Would be really awesome imo. Or yet to get the leg piece in OD?
-Pras
I've got the leg piece just haven't traded it in... have you seen the stats on the legs?!?! They are TERRIBLE. I will eventually trade them in, just been funneling my medallions to my LM for now to get her the set. Eventually if I'm tanking, 5OD + Arthar + clicky sword would be epic. Thing about the dev helms is that you need to be taking damage to get dev magnitude to proc, so if you're not tanking it doesn't do much for you and I haven't been tanking most of the boss fights lately. I will definitely have to try it though... it could be a lot of fun!
Kamriel 75 CHN, Kamsterr 75 LM, HideHobitsHere Bear Tank Extraordinaire
I only rarely raid in PUGs, and I build for a balance of DPS and survivability. I switch out Rochben for crafted Malledhrim Gloves of the Gloaming when I feel like I need more self-healing procs rather than Agility, and I always wear Curucham (75% / 25 damage reduction on each hit) and the golden epic book self-heal proc leggings. Sometimes I wear the Amethyst Gold Silver Bracelet for a small bit of extra reflect damage, and I regularly keep traited Flurry up in every fight.
I dual-wield and use two Profound Runes of Action for the 5% attack speed and melee defense bonuses, one Emerald of the Verdant Glen, one Extraordinary Gem of Hope, two True Settings of the Ages, and two Symbols of Battle. I also switch to Egnion-Clog and the Othrikar Warrior's Chain to when I feel like maxing out my might and getting a little more incoming healing. Finally, I regularly use stat food and the Dead-Breaker +30 vit clicky, and scrolls when in a group. Cappy buffs take me the rest of the way to max.
Thing about the dev helms is that you need to be taking damage to get dev magnitude to proc, so if you're not tanking it doesn't do much for you and I haven't been tanking most of the boss fights lately. I will definitely have to try it though... it could be a lot of fun!
Lots of DoTs everywhere in new raids SO we will get damage some way.
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Originally Posted by Jamers
Or he could be the only Champ who's consistently using Ebbing Ire on the tank.
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Re: Champion Builds - post pls
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