Sadly you keep forgetting we are not as easily fooled as others.
1. You collected your "Soft Gate" Radiance in 6 Man Instances not the Raid itself. Please share your Information Source that Finesse could never ever possibly work the same way? Given the track record of Turbine it's much more likely it will be the same.
I never said radiance was "Soft Gate". I specifically said radiance was a hard gate and it was horrible.
60Finesse(Radiance) could be the least to attempt to kick BigUruk ID1 Boss in Orthan. You are free to collect 6 Pieces in the 6Mans / Mix with 5 Finesse from Quest/ Crafting Gear. It's the same all over in this case, however we do not want it to be that way.
Except that the way it's been explained, there is no 'must have x amount of finesse to do an instance'. Per Graal's post on the matter:
A top-of the line Raid Boss will probably have BPE and Resistance around 35% total with lesser bosses and trash elites having much less. A few pieces of crafted or quest gear give 10-15% off those totals and another 10-15% Finesse available through instance/raid loot this will lower BPE into more than acceptable levels. That’s the plan anyway and as such subject to change.
So if they decide to go with those sorts of levels, even going in with no finesse, your still going to be hitting the boss 65% of the time. With just a couple of crafted or quest pieces, that increases to 75-80% of the time.
Unless Crafting PVM / 6Man Equip got the EQUAL amount of Finesse to the Top Raiding Gear it's bound to be Radiance 2.0 Get it?
The majority of gear with the best stats on it at the moment is from instances/raids. Go and try to do Tier 2 OD with crafted/PVP gear and you won't be doing very well. Does that mean we've already got Rad 2.0?
2. How is this different again? Where's the difference if i cower every 10 seconds with 40Rad at the Watcher or hit for like 10% of all my Attacks with 40 Finesse? Both times you are doing effectively nothing. Zero Radiance didn't stop you from "entering" if that's what you are trying to hardball here.
Hyperbole and strawman much? Assuming they go the direction they're indicating above, even with 0 finesse you'll still be doing much more damage than 10%. Yes of course you could 'enter' the instance even if you had 0 rad, but it was obvious that you couldn't contribute to the raid at all due to cowering and effectively you couldn't go on the raid. Unless they do a total 180 turn on finesse, it will be nothing like that.
On a personal note: If you are convinced Radiance will have not much, if not even no valuable effect to your combat contribution in the ROI world, it's all good to me, in fact we complain to be it that way. But don't try to act like this is a given FACT to dismiss our concerns with the possibility of radiance 2.0.
You're losing me a bit here. Regardless, my opinions that I put down are simply that, my opinion. After experiencing similar stats and various hard and soft gating mechanisms in other MMO's and having gone through radiance, I'm confident that finesse will be nothing like radiance, hence why I think everyone is over-reacting (particularly given similar performance stats like outgoing healing and tank mitigation stats are already in the game).
And for reading comprehension, voiced concerns about radiance 2.0 are not about Doom & Gloom.
I never said radiance was "Soft Gate". I specifically said radiance was a hard gate and it was horrible.
Reading comprehension fail?
Originally Posted by JRonnie
Except that the way it's been explained, there is no 'must have x amount of finesse to do an instance'. Per Graal's post on the matter:
That's how you wish it to be, and so do I, but he didn't even hint it at all.
Originally Posted by JRonnie
The majority of gear with the best stats on it at the moment is from instances/raids. Go and try to do Tier 2 OD with crafted/PVP gear and you won't be doing very well. Does that mean we've already got Rad 2.0?
Reading Comprehension Fail?
Originally Posted by JRonnie
Hyperbole and strawman much? Assuming they go the direction they're indicating above, even with 0 finesse you'll still be doing much more damage than 10%. Yes of course you could 'enter' the instance even if you had 0 rad, but it was obvious that you couldn't contribute to the raid at all due to cowering and effectively you couldn't go on the raid. Unless they do a total 180 turn on finesse, it will be nothing like that.
Hyperbole and strawman much? Do you even know how cowering even works? Basics, hello? you do NOT cower the whole time. Whenever it could be or not was the whole purpose of this post. Since you love to twist soft and hardgate this was just to show how much of a strawman your argument really is duh.
If you cower every few seconds you are as effective as someone getting his attacks resisted and BPA almost all the time. It's amazing magic!
Last edited by SungXe; Jul 05 2011 at 11:42 AM.
|l /=/ From Codemasters over Turbine to Mordor \=\ l|
Except you can because the lack of finesse isn't relevent. Eitheir that non-finesse peice gives you better DPS than the finesse peice it's replacing, (in which case you want it and it is better), or it dosen't give you better DPS, (in which case you don't and it's not better).
Radiance could be neccessery to complete the instance and yet not give you the best DPS, (or healing or whatever). Finesse cannot do this.
Are you at all familiar with Radiance? Radiance absolutely gave you the best DPS (or healing or whatever) in a raid. Without Radiance the gloom would give you the same effects as dread -skill level, -max morale, -DPS, -healing. By your own logic, with factual information instead of misinformation, Radiance is nearly identical to Finesse.
"For them to perceive the advantage of defeating the enemy, they must also have their rewards." ~Sun Tzu
I was going off on a big post, until i realised what you where actually saying.
All i can say is:
A) Explain to me then if you consider you post accuarrate how it was possibble with radiance and glom around to have a peice that was ever under any circumstaces better than the rad gear. Becuase if it wans't possibble then rad was fine and should never have been removed. Yet it is this factor that is the stated reason for it's removal and the reasn rad was hated. Rad gear WAS infiriour to non-rad gear. And it is the utter inability for this, (in combinaion with my next point), to be true for finesse, (because everythign BPE's), that makes it tottally diffrent from Rad.
B) Learn how finesse works and then kindly stop bothering me, because i'm getting fed up of smart mouths who know nothing about it's finction coming in here mouthing off without reasling how it works or how powerful it wil or will not be.
Finesse affects nothing but DPS, (unlike rad), and has a far lower magnitude of effect, the nature of things means that for certian classes, once a given amount of it is reached other stats WILL be supiriour in terms of benefit, (eithier becuase of migation for tanks, or because certian skills make other ratings more effecive). Burgs, (because of crit skill DPS contributions), and Champs, (High Crit Magnitudes), in particular will hit this quite quickly.
Any Class that can get -Evade, -Block, -Parry, or -Resistance effecst allready has soke built in finesse as well, which is going to make it far less valuable, (Fall to our wrath is equivelent to 900 finesse for tactial damage purposes at 75 for example).
That's how you wish it to be, and so do I, but he didn't even hint it at all.
Reading Comprehension Fail?
Hyperbole and strawman much? Do you even know how cowering even works? Basics, hello? you do NOT cower the whole time. Whenever it could be or not was the whole purpose of this post. Since you love to twist soft and hardgate this was just to show how much of a strawman your argument really is duh.
If you cower every few seconds you are as effective as someone getting his attacks resisted and BPA almost all the time. It's amazing magic!
I'm sorry, but I obviously can't understand a lot of what you're writing so trying to debate this issue with you is probably a moot point. I think I've made my arguments fairly clear, so I'm done.
Never read the thread and dont plan on it-Just wanna throw in my two coppers.
This is a gate. Period end of story. This is what Radiance should have been, or what they wished it was. They said themselves that they knew very early on that Radiance as releases was a very bad idea. So they tried some things and basically had to make the best of it as they were way too far into development (Money) to just scrap it at that time.
They also said that in hindsight a radiance stat might have been a better way to go.
When its all said and done your going to get Orion or whom ever is doing the new sets come in here and say "its not a gate, you can do this content with out Finesse, Finesse just makes it easier"
Thats what radiance did.
Mark my words.
This is a gate. Its a way to keep us grinding away on instances and raids. They will never produce enough clusters/raids to keep us going in a natural flowing progression. They will put out one raid a year and one cluster a year if we're lucky. They will continue to scale up 4 year old content and have us grinding in those aswell.
Its a gate, one that I'm excited to see. Its going to be a grind. There is no doubt. But its not going to be a dumb radiance issue where your health is down, your avoidance is down, you cant function. Its going to be a finesse issue where you dps is a bit lower.
When its all said and done, thats all this is. Lower dps for your group. If mobs have finesse then your tanks are going to need to get as close to avoidance cap as possible.
But lower dps via Finesse is a way better option then lower everything cant even step foot in new raid via Radiance.
A) Explain to me then if you consider you post accuarrate how it was possibble with radiance and glom around to have a peice that was ever under any circumstaces better than the rad gear. Becuase if it wans't possibble then rad was fine and should never have been removed. Yet it is this factor that is the stated reason for it's removal and the reasn rad was hated. Rad gear WAS infiriour to non-rad gear. And it is the utter inability for this, (in combinaion with my next point), to be true for finesse, (because everythign BPE's), that makes it tottally diffrent from Rad.
Take a look at the DN champ set, the set bonus was +ardour damage. It was far inferior to the VM set, but champs did more DPS with it in raids anyway because of the radiance. If radiance didn't exist, they wouldn't have used the gear. Radiance was king. No other gear stats mattered. This is the concern with Finesse on gear. No more "comparable incomparables". No more choosing a set for it's bonuses. No more unique builds to support different playstyles. Just grab the piece with the most Finesse and go.
My concern isn't with Finesse. My concern is with Finesse on gear.
"For them to perceive the advantage of defeating the enemy, they must also have their rewards." ~Sun Tzu
Take a look at the DN champ set, the set bonus was +ardour damage. It was far inferior to the VM set, but champs did more DPS with it in raids anyway because of the radiance. If radiance didn't exist, they wouldn't have used the gear. Radiance was king. No other gear stats mattered. This is the concern with Finesse on gear. No more "comparable incomparables". No more choosing a set for it's bonuses. No more unique builds to support different playstyles. Just grab the piece with the most Finesse and go.
My concern isn't with Finesse. My concern is with Finesse on gear.
Stat cap removal should lesson some of this effect. Stat caps have kept gear ratings down the last 2 years because there is no where to go. At 60 we were close to the stat cap with VM gear and Moria instance jewelery. DN brings in new gear, some new jewelery, and crafted gear that was a par with anything you could find in instances. Even a 5 level increase wasn't enough to distance VM gear from being used; it was still completely viable. This, in my opinion, was a huge problem. A set from 3 raids before shouldn't be preferred to the newest raid set; it shouldn't even be in the realm.
Now, if there had been no stat cap then we could have gotten 10 or 15 or 20 or more stat increase on our gear and VM gear would never had been given a second though. If this then continued, we would be 60ish stat increase out from that gear and would be vastly superior, even despite set bonuses.
All Finesse is going to do is add an additional stat that will be on all gear (hopefully). Yes, it will be a gate, but it will be a "soft gate". Hopefully, they will not pigeon hole us into one set of gear; you can get enough on jewelery and gear to use what you want. If it is like other games, you will only need a certain amount; any above that will be "wasted".
P.S. I have been talking about stat cap removal for like 8 months. Thanks for finally listening to me Turbine
@Yosoff: Thanks for the explanation, i have a habbit of massive altohism, as a consuquence, with several toons it takes forever to get anything done, so i never encounteed radiance prior to it's removal. What your talking about isn;t one peice having more stats on it than a rad peice, it's about it having stats on you don't want.
As others have said, and myself allready. this kind of thing is going to happen anyway becuase whilst the latest set might well, (potentiolly), be covered in stats and set bonusus yo don't want, it will have so much more of the ones you do that it will be supiriour even before finesse.
And again i donlt think you have the slightest idea what the mechanics of finesse mean in practical terms. For a boss with 35% total BPE, each 1% drop in total BPE is worth a hefty 1.5% DPS boost. Nice eh? Here's the catch, (example), a champ with maxed crit magnitude legacy and running full red traits will always recive a greater DPS boost per point of crit rating, (upto the crit cap), than they will from the same amount of finesse.
Champs are the most favorable class here mind, but any class able to aquire high criticals will get at best a very minor increase from swapping all their crit rating for the same amount of finesse. In addittion, vs a 35% BPE boss, Finesse caps at about 9.6K, so if they give us rediculously good finesse amounts, (in comparision to other ratings), we'll cap it very fast, indeed, depending on how much weaker BPE's non end-raid bosses have, you could well find that more than 4-5K of finesse ends up severly gimping you vs them. Bassiclly they can eithier keep finesse low in avalibilty and thus value, (because other stats are more valubale for the amount you get), or they can make it easilly mass aquirable, but still low in value, (because you cap it so easilly).
They'd have to give bosses very high BPE's to make it ultra preferabble. But even wit bosses at the BPE caps, you only need 28K to cap out.
As others have said, and myself allready. this kind of thing is going to happen anyway becuase whilst the latest set might well, (potentiolly), be covered in stats and set bonusus yo don't want, it will have so much more of the ones you do that it will be supiriour even before finesse.
That's a pretty big assumption. Even if they do give major gear upgrades for each future raid instead of "side-grades", better stats don't always mean better DPS. Many hunters already prefer the Helegrod set despite the lower stats because the set bonus cooldowns allow more skills, each skill hits for less than with other sets, but because there's more of them you end up doing more DPS.
In some situations survivability trumps DPS. Several players prefer the old level 50 Rift set for Ivar due to the great Shadow Damage mitigation. They're doing slightly less DPS, but you can't do any DPS if you're dead.
The point is, we lose the flexibility to play around with different builds and discover those less obvious ways to increase DPS and survivability. Instead of finding the gear to match our playstyle we'll be back to changing our playstyle to match the gear.
Also, diminishing returns from increased stats will greatly limit the potential gains from armor upgrades. At a certain point +30 to all stats becomes meaningless in practical terms. The items to make the most difference between sets will be Finesse and set bonuses.
Originally Posted by Darth_Carl
And again i donlt think you have the slightest idea what the mechanics of finesse mean in practical terms. For a boss with 35% total BPE, each 1% drop in total BPE is worth a hefty 1.5% DPS boost. Nice eh? Here's the catch, (example), a champ with maxed crit magnitude legacy and running full red traits will always recive a greater DPS boost per point of crit rating, (upto the crit cap), than they will from the same amount of finesse.
And again, I don't have a concern with Finesse itself, I have a concern with Finesse on gear. What it does is only relevant in terms of how large of an impact it will make (big impact). If you look past the discussion of whether it should be added or not, the remaining discussion is about how it should be implemented.
Finesse is a game changer that rises to the level of a gear gate (soft gate or hard gate is yet to be determined by the raid leaders). Bottom line - we've already been down the path of a gear gate and it was not well received.
"For them to perceive the advantage of defeating the enemy, they must also have their rewards." ~Sun Tzu
Bottom line - we've already been down the path of a gear gate and it was not well received.
Bottom line, finesse by it's very nature is incapable of being a gear gate, soft or hard.
What part of that didn';t you get? Let me sumarise.
1. Finesse per point of rating is not very powerful
2. Because of how littile rating it needs to cap out if they don't keep it at a ratio, (reletive to whatever stat it might theoreticlly replace), that is low it will lose all value as it will be an incidental stat. It would in effect becoem the same as block ratings for current wardens. they can get so much via gambits it has absolutly no value for them. This goes double for classes like the Hunter that can get large quantaties of penetrate resistance, -evade, -block, or -parry ratings.
3. Points 1 and 2 hem Finesse between a rock and a hard place, eithier it's so rare we can't cap it, but don't want it becuase other ratings are more abundent on a given level of gear and thus those items give more improvment. Or it's abundent so we want it as it's easier to get a given DPS increase from it, but we don;t really mind sacraficing a finesse peice for a non-finesse peice because it's so easy to cap.
Eithier way the presence or lack of finnesse is irrelevent becuase we won;t want to take gear with finesse on it just for the finesse
To come back to your first part.
Easy anwaser.
Where unlikliy to get our ratings all capped first cluster out, in fact getting beter than now is unlikliy IMHO, (otherwise we'd be back to the current situoution again, which is why they lifted the caps in the first place), and at best where going to get 3-5 clusters, maybe less. As such they can afford to let our Offence rise by around 4-7% per cluster, and our crit by 2-3.5% per ckluster, total overall DPS gain cna thus be expcted to rise by a minimum of 5% per cluster, and 12% or more isn't impossibble IMHO. It's goping to be virtually impossibble for a set bonus to achive that kind of buff barring some really badly thought out set bonus's.
I'd like to know where some people in this thread are getting their numbers. So far all I've seen regarding Finesse is the information in the blog.
New Stat – Finesse
For all of those players who think the random number generator has it out for them this is the stat for you. Finesse is a ratings-based stat that will directly reduce the Resistance of monsters as well as their Block/Parry/Evade ratings. This stat will appear primarily on instance/raid/pvmp loot but there will be a few pieces available with Finesse from quests and crafting. This new stat is a two sided weapon because monsters will have access to it also. Most landscape monsters won’t have much if any Finesse but expect high difficulty instance/raid Boss monsters to have quite a bit.
Where are people getting the hard numbers being thrown around regarding Finesse and its worth?
Originally Posted by Darth_Carl
Finesse affects nothing but DPS, (unlike rad), and has a far lower magnitude of effect, the nature of things means that for certian classes, once a given amount of it is reached other stats WILL be supiriour in terms of benefit, (eithier becuase of migation for tanks, or because certian skills make other ratings more effecive). Burgs, (because of crit skill DPS contributions), and Champs, (High Crit Magnitudes), in particular will hit this quite quickly.
The blog says Finesse will reduce the B/P/E ratings of foes as well as their resistance rates. That's way more than just DPS. +Threat effects and taunts have to pass a resist check, and CC has to pass a resistance check. The likelihood of a tank holding aggro or a LM locking down a mob is also going to be effected by Finesse. It's also a double edge sword, per the blog, so mobs in raids with high finesse will hit the players more often with their attacks (as we will resist and BPE less).
This isn't just an "Oh, I do a little more damage" stat.
7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar All of them are sick of grinding Scrolls of Empowerment Awaiting change...
Bottom line, finesse by it's very nature is incapable of being a gear gate, soft or hard.
What part of that didn';t you get? Let me sumarise.
1. Finesse per point of rating is not very powerful
2. Because of how littile rating it needs to cap out if they don't keep it at a ratio, (reletive to whatever stat it might theoreticlly replace), that is low it will lose all value as it will be an incidental stat. It would in effect becoem the same as block ratings for current wardens. they can get so much via gambits it has absolutly no value for them. This goes double for classes like the Hunter that can get large quantaties of penetrate resistance, -evade, -block, or -parry ratings.
3. Points 1 and 2 hem Finesse between a rock and a hard place, eithier it's so rare we can't cap it, but don't want it becuase other ratings are more abundent on a given level of gear and thus those items give more improvment. Or it's abundent so we want it as it's easier to get a given DPS increase from it, but we don;t really mind sacraficing a finesse peice for a non-finesse peice because it's so easy to cap.
Eithier way the presence or lack of finnesse is irrelevent becuase we won;t want to take gear with finesse on it just for the finesse
To come back to your first part.
Easy anwaser.
Where unlikliy to get our ratings all capped first cluster out, in fact getting beter than now is unlikliy IMHO, (otherwise we'd be back to the current situoution again, which is why they lifted the caps in the first place), and at best where going to get 3-5 clusters, maybe less. As such they can afford to let our Offence rise by around 4-7% per cluster, and our crit by 2-3.5% per ckluster, total overall DPS gain cna thus be expcted to rise by a minimum of 5% per cluster, and 12% or more isn't impossibble IMHO. It's goping to be virtually impossibble for a set bonus to achive that kind of buff barring some really badly thought out set bonus's.
Your post is pure wishful thinking (mine is probably pure skepticism). If Finesse won't matter then why would they spend the time developing it and designing raid content around it?
The most likely scenario is that Finesse will only be on top end gear and that it will be the single most important stat on that gear. The most likely scenario is that we will want the gear with the most Finesse regardless of all other stats and considerations.
If I'm wrong, then great, they wasted a ton of development time creating a useless system but it doesn't have any impact beyond that so who cares.
If you're wrong then it's a gear gate similar to Radiance.
"For them to perceive the advantage of defeating the enemy, they must also have their rewards." ~Sun Tzu
Your post is pure wishful thinking (mine is probably pure skepticism). If Finesse won't matter then why would they spend the time developing it and designing raid content around it?
The most likely scenario is that Finesse will only be on top end gear and that it will be the single most important stat on that gear. The most likely scenario is that we will want the gear with the most Finesse regardless of all other stats and considerations.
If I'm wrong, then great, they wasted a ton of development time creating a useless system but it doesn't have any impact beyond that so who cares.
If you're wrong then it's a gear gate similar to Radiance.
Maybe it isn't a black or white stat? Why does it have to be trivial or the end of Middle-Earth as we know it? Why can't it be a new stat we embrace and look to increase like crit or offense or any of the other ratings in game?
My guess is that it is a new system that allows them to tweak boss encounters more; making them more difficult and more mechanically challenging. I also guess that it will be much like other similar stats in other games where there is an "effective" cap. This being that you have reduced the bosses avoidance by as much as possible, and while maybe (read hopefully) this will below the hard cap of the stat. My hope is that it will be available on a wide range of things, not just raid gear. Maybe even on relics so we can slot them there if we like. This will allow us to hit the "effective" cap in multiple avenues, not sticking us with 1 gear set or that this 1 stat is most important.
Maybe I'm an optimist (I doubt anyone that knows me would call me that though ), but I don't see this as Radiance 2.0/the end of of the world or as some trivial thing just to annoy us. It is a system that has some promise and hopefully they can deliver.
You say that we don't have any details and then turn around and declare; "Finesse is a good idea". What are you basing that on if not on details? A hunch? Blind faith that they'll get it right this time? As a concept, sure, Finesse is a good idea.
Ummmmmm.... I'm basing it on what they've stated that it will do, not what I think it will do? Quit trying to twist words to make a point?
Originally Posted by Yosoff
Implementation is everything. Across several characters, I've used the following sets in OD; OD, BG, Helegrod, DN, VM, Rift & both Mirkwood 3-piece sets. I love having all of those options. The choices will all disappear if Finesse is tied to armor. Instead, they should tie Finesse to our primary stat, LI relics or even virtues. There are a half dozen different ways to implement Finesse, but they've chosen the only method that is a proven failure.
*Shrug* Again, depends on how readily available it is. Do YOU know how easy it will be to get?
Originally Posted by Yosoff
What do you think is going to happen to guards if the devs get the balance wrong and give bosses too much Finesse? No BPE events. No threat. Delete your guard. Champs are going to be tanking everything. But that's okay, because it's a "good idea".
If it breaks, then they fix it. The world keeps on spinning.
What if they get it right and it solves every problem the game has ever had?
Isn't pretending fun?
Originally Posted by Yosoff
If I'm wrong, then great, they wasted a ton of development time creating a useless system but it doesn't have any impact beyond that so who cares.
False. If you're wrong, they will have turned RNG into a controllable factor in our builds. That is not "nothing", it's something we could not do before to any reasonable degree.
It's not all or nothing.
I have 3 concerns.
1. How readily available the stat is.
2. How effective it will be (i.e., how much we will need to stack)
3. How transparent the system is (i.e. will we know EXACTLY we will need relative to the mobs we're fighting via character sheet, or do we have to guess?).
Those 3 concerns are all a big deal... but those specifics are precisely what we don't have yet.
Last edited by scrubmonkey; Jul 07 2011 at 01:30 AM.
@ScrubMonkey & Name allready Taken: They've already exlained how finesse will work, (it's furthar back in the thread is the quote), it will subtract from Block, parry, and Evade ratings. We know the sums for that allready and a bit of bsic maths can tell us how much a total 1% drop in BPE is worth. That gives us a baseline to work from.
Finesse is also only subject to a certian amount of diminishing returns, far less than other stats. That said it caps when the mob hits 3% total BPE AFAIK. if you want to know how much Finesse it would take to cap vs a presumed level of BPE, simply dig out your tank plus tank jewellry and stack avoidance stats till you reach the same total BPE as the boss, then add your total Block, Parry, and Evade ratings together, (it's not perfect as depending on specific contributions from specific avoidances the value changes, but it should still normally be in the right ballpark, actual maths gives more exact figures but the in game form is simpler).
@Yessof: I picked champs as an extreme example. Most classes will gain very slightly more from Finesse than Crit rating. So there's certianlly plenty of room for it to be useful. but it's not going to be a magic stat like radiance where we saw orders of magnitude increase in effectivnes from only small amounts. Which in combination with mypoint about the caps, (especially against non end game bos mobs), means that whilst desirable it won;t have the ability to make or break your character like Rad could.
In short it gives the devs another stat to put on gear that we want, (thsu meanign we hit Crit/Offence caps more slowly), and gives raiders somthing to work towards. but f somone can find the appropriatte gear they can do without it as well. In most situations the diffrance between a given amount of crit rating or offence rating and the same amount of Finesse is only going to be in the region of a few tenths of a percent per several hundred rating. Only at very high crit/offence ratinsg valus does diminishing returns start to give finesse a really noticable lead.
TDLR: for most classes finesse can provide a sufficent advantage to them to be worth having, but the total effect will be no more than 2 or 3% in best case scenarios, and will probably be less in the majority. It's nice to have but it can't break your ability to be effective.
I'd like to know where some people in this thread are getting their numbers. So far all I've seen regarding Finesse is the information in the blog.
Where are people getting the hard numbers being thrown around regarding Finesse and its worth?
Here and here are the Dev posts with numbers (from the Dev Diary Feedback thread).
The pertinent bits are:
Originally Posted by Graalx2
The numbers in the following example are for demonstration purposes only. Please do not take them as ‘The Way Things Are’. They are only meant to be an example of our intent.
A top-of the line Raid Boss will probably have BPE and Resistance around 35% total with lesser bosses and trash elites having much less. A few pieces of crafted or quest gear give 10-15% off those totals and another 10-15% Finesse available through instance/raid loot this will lower BPE into more than acceptable levels. That’s the plan anyway and as such subject to change.
and
Originally Posted by Graalx2
Finesse is a rating. It will subtract directly from the Resistance of Monsters. It will subtract directly from the BPE ratings of monster in proportion to the total Avoidance.
That's not really clear so I'll give an example.
Say I have 1000 Finesse. I attack a monster with 3243 Resistance rating, a Block rating of 3000, a Parry rating of 2000 and a Evade rating of 5000.
The monster will resist with a 2243 rating.
It will Block with (3000-(1000*(3000/(3000+2000+5000)))) = 2700 rating
It will Parry with a 1800 rating
It will Evade with a 4500 rating.
Duvi Vastin: "But whenever we take feedback on most game systems, such as character builds, economics, or especially anything to do with PvP, then we are forced to read very carefully between the lines of any and all player feedback, as it is all inevitably skewed by self-investment, self-interest, and a deeply subjective viewpoint that increases in direct proportion to how long or successfully a player has occupied a particular role."
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Originally Posted by SungXe
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