Thread: PvP - The Problem is Rating

Originally Posted by Gladgilrian

Sorry, I didn't read that wall of text, but let me put my spin on it.

In ToR there are no ratings, there is no wartab, death means absolutely nothing. I still see people on both sides avoid death like the plague. When ToR gets rated Warzones I predict the careful players will play even more carefully.

Its not the system, its the people.

My turn.



When I Play CoD domination (which is all I play, obv), the biggest thing is to hold the flags. So people don't really care about deaths so much when it comes to getting the flag or defending the flag. Probably a better example, in well runescape /shamedface, the only place where dieing and killing actually matters is in the wild, where u lose all ur gear if u die, or gain gear if u kill. Notice thats the only pvp in RS where its not actually a minigame? The other pvp minigames are safer, and dieing is like "Äww shucks"

It is the system, with some emphasis on the players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxJnNFhckxY
Proof^^ Actually Im just getting views for my friend

Originally Posted by Gladgilrian

Sorry, I didn't read that wall of text, but let me put my spin on it.

In ToR there are no ratings, there is no wartab, death means absolutely nothing. I still see people on both sides avoid death like the plague. When ToR gets rated Warzones I predict the careful players will play even more carefully.

Its not the system, its the people.

Heh, sorry I have a tendency to over-word things. I'll try to make this one brief. Whether it's the people or not, you do have the sense to predict that adding ratings to ToR will make people behave more carefully. Because of this, we can agree that without ratings, people would atleast behave less carefully than they would with ratings, right? This is why I said I believe removing/adjusting the current rating system would be a step in the right direction, but by no means a complete/comprensive solution by itself.

Originally Posted by myforumacc2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxJnNFhckxY
Proof^^ Actually Im just getting views for my friend

LOOOL Well SOMEONE here is a huge hater. Im just looking at his news feed (part of my stalker abilities) and lolling hardcore when all his comments are trolling except for the one with a cute girl on it XD That was more of a sweet-talk comment ROFL.

Ay-ya-yay. Im gonna be laughing all day XD

What is this I don't even...

Originally Posted by Ramiel_87

What is this I don't even...

Idk, but for one, im gonna beat you to senior member And LoL is SOOO pokemon

Ashe, I choose you!

*hits nails for emphasis*

Actually, it keeps crashing on me every time i try to join a game >.< apparently im supposed to update my graphic driver, still waiting since an hour ago for it to finish...

Do you crush oxycodone into a fine dust and frost your flakes with it
?

Originally Posted by myforumacc2

This picture is very relevant as the BEORNLING may be returning to Nimrodel!

Originally Posted by zaskoda

Do you crush oxycodone into a fine dust and frost your flakes with it
?

10,200 posts... Nice life Isi

great insight

Originally Posted by Thularil

My contention is that much of the dissatisfaction/frustration with the Ettenmoors originates from the ratings system. When PvP is slow, it's because one side (or both) is too hesitant to die. Players turtle and only attack when someone (or a small few) overextends and is an easy target for a gank. The opposing side rushes, kills, and then retreats because people are trying to protect or increase their current rating. They go for easy kills. You make a kill with your group, get some renown, and then get out of danger. The mere existence of a rating system has created an insidious influence on gameplay - comparing our rating versus other players is a way to validate the fact (or desire to believe) that we are good players, better than many or most others. It is easy for people to search the leaderboard not only for their own rating, but other players' as well. Do you know yours? Do you know anyone else's, and/or have you heard someone else mention another player's rating? This is what drives current PvP. It is only natural for folks to be concerned with rating, since (presumably) Turbine created it as a barometer of competitive skill. The problem is that it is NOT a measure of skill. It's a measure of someone's ability to get a few pals and quickly crush someone who has no chance due to overwhelming odds and opportunism. There are rare exceptions, but 90% of the time, PvP is a game of ganging up and killing some poor separated player. All too often it is not a battle, but an assasination. This may be a radical idea, but I think that ratings should be eliminated, or changed so that they are not calculated based on how often you kill other players compared to how many times you were killed. Eliminating ratings will make it so that we play for renown, for the competition of battle, and to have fun; not to turtle and protect standing or bragging rights within the PvP leaderboard. If we must have a rating system, perhaps it could be tied it to outposts taken, keeps taken and/or time defended, but not based on how many times a player can gank another. What do you think?

Can't agree more!

I would have hoped that with the creation and ranking up audacity that the star huggers would have come out of hiding and play more... doesn't seem to be the case

Oh, they came out of hiding -to double box and farm their alts on the other side. Remember the creeps who had 7 audacity two days after update 6 launched? I do. I won't name them, but several of them post fairly regularly in this forum. It may be impossible for Turbine to prevent people from taking advantage of loopholes in the system, but I think they could do a better job. Clearly, there are many who will do whatever they can to gain an advantage whether it is a reportable behavior or not.

Rating has nothng to do with it. Yes, some people hug their stars, but they aren't the problem really. The problem is people that only play when they know they will win. Always has been, always will be. It's an unbelievably sad commentary on what people are like deep down, but there it is.

Originally Posted by 22Acacia

The problem is people that only play when they know they will win. Always has been, always will be. It's an unbelievably sad commentary on what people are like deep down, but there it is.

^^^^^ Kettle meet pot. Milt, whether you admit it or not, you do the exact same thing on your Burg. No one sees you unless you have a 99.9999% chance of getting a kill and then escaping. On your LM you sit behind the raid and are the first to run. You can use the excuse of being solo, but it doesn't change the fact that you are describing yourself in your post.

It wasn't always that way, I remember you use to take quite a few risks 2 years ago or more. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but look in the mirror. What you see in your playstyle and what we see may be 2 different things.

I'll put my deaths against yours any day of the week, even with your longer ./timeplayed

Originally Posted by Thularil

Oh, they came out of hiding -to double box and farm their alts on the other side. Remember the creeps who had 7 audacity two days after update 6 launched? I do. I won't name them, but several of them post fairly regularly in this forum. It may be impossible for Turbine to prevent people from taking advantage of loopholes in the system, but I think they could do a better job. Clearly, there are many who will do whatever they can to gain an advantage whether it is a reportable behavior or not.

Meverdiel and I (Spacemonkey) were among the first to get to rank 7 audacity in the moors, the earliest being friday/saturday after monday's update. I don't recall ever seeing people with max audacity only 2 days after the update.

I got my rank high by doing 1500 worth of commendations on four characters each day. Completing some maps helped some.

Some people re-roll noobs to get crude/poor maps. Some people just kill freeps. And very few 2-box farm. However, the end goal is still the same. Those who got there legitimately and those who got there via farming still get the same rewards.

I don't think there's much to be gained from farming. What happens when you hit rank 15? No one will respect you and you'll still die in a zerg.

As for rating... I try not to get too high on mine. I usually stay between 1200 and 1500, depending on how foolish I feel that day. Those who starhug are only asking to get killed first in a zerg, whether it's because of chicken #### playstyle or simply because they're worth more infamy/renown. I'll always target Mawgrim on the rare occasion I see him, for both reasons.

Originally Posted by Gladgilrian

^^^^^ Kettle meet pot. Milt, whether you admit it or not, you do the exact same thing on your Burg. No one sees you unless you have a 99.9999% chance of getting a kill and then escaping. On your LM you sit behind the raid and are the first to run. You can use the excuse of being solo, but it doesn't change the fact that you are describing yourself in your post.

It wasn't always that way, I remember you use to take quite a few risks 2 years ago or more. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but look in the mirror. What you see in your playstyle and what we see may be 2 different things.

I'll put my deaths against yours any day of the week, even with your longer ./timeplayed

Perhaps the best (worst) indictment of the state of the game, particularly on this server, is I don't even care enough to debunk your bullsh!t anymore. You're right, I'm wrong. Keep on fighting the good fight wherever you choose to fight it Spidey. I'm sure you'll have lots of help wherever it is.

Originally Posted by 22Acacia

Rating has nothng to do with it. Yes, some people hug their stars, but they aren't the problem really. The problem is people that only play when they know they will win. Always has been, always will be. It's an unbelievably sad commentary on what people are like deep down, but there it is.

I agree with this statement. With that in mind, I have different playstyles for each toon. Sometimes I (used to) like to star hug on my ba, but will mindlessly charge into certain death while playing my champ. Can't stand wargs that roam around in packs of 3 or 4 waiting for my champ to pull OC for a kill on a greeny. If they have to play like that at least let someone get some renown before they I-Win all over them.

Unfortunately I'll have to agree with Spidey on the whole pot/kettle thing with this post, look in the mirror.

Originally Posted by hemenway90

Unfortunately I'll have to agree with Spidey on the whole pot/kettle thing with this post, look in the mirror.

Also unfortunately, I will have to disagree. Anyone who knows my history on this server knows I have historically been the most targeted and griefed player out there with the possible exception of Slither (from the early BB days, to the DD/Rauko hinder Milt show, to Butta's packs to the new breed of troglodytes that learned everything they think they know about me from Butta). Try dealing with that solo for 5 years then come back. And contrary to what Spidey and others try to say so often, fighting near a raid isn't anything like being in a raid that's supporting you. Solo is solo and not solo isn't solo.

Let's just say when I see you out there, I'm assuming there's warg with ya, 'kay?

Originally Posted by 22Acacia

Also unfortunately, I will have to disagree. Anyone who knows my history on this server knows I have historically been the most targeted and griefed player out there with the possible exception of Slither (from the early BB days, to the DD/Rauko hinder Milt show, to Butta's packs to the new breed of troglodytes that learned everything they think they know about me from Butta). Try dealing with that solo for 5 years then come back. And contrary to what Spidey and others try to say so often, fighting near a raid isn't anything like being in a raid that's supporting you. Solo is solo and not solo isn't solo.

Let's just say when I see you out there, I'm assuming there's warg with ya, 'kay?

The phrase: "you made your bed, you get to sleep in it" comes to mind.

I just figured I'd put in my 2c and make an observation on what I see based strictly on playstyle. Unlike most people, I actually like you from when I actually played. Point there is I'm just calling it like I see it. As far as playstyle from when I've played, the only difference between you and mawgrim is you die far more often, playstyle is nearly identical from what I've seen. But like I always say, you pay your sub, you play how you want. I won't hold it against anyone for their playstyle, and I would expect the same in return.

Originally Posted by 22Acacia

Also unfortunately, I will have to disagree. Anyone who knows my history on this server knows I have historically been the most targeted and griefed player out there with the possible exception of Slither (from the early BB days, to the DD/Rauko hinder Milt show, to Butta's packs to the new breed of troglodytes that learned everything they think they know about me from Butta). Try dealing with that solo for 5 years then come back. And contrary to what Spidey and others try to say so often, fighting near a raid isn't anything like being in a raid that's supporting you. Solo is solo and not solo isn't solo.

Let's just say when I see you out there, I'm assuming there's warg with ya, 'kay?

Cry me a river Milt. When you tweak the noses of the people that think they are Tolkiens gift to this game you get a target on your back. Maybe your target has been there longer than mine, but mine's there none the less. Yes, you're solo and I know how to make friends. Differences in social skills maybe.

I like you also. I think you're witty, you understand the subtlety of the written word (unlike 95% of the people that play), but you can be a colossal pain in the butt, so can I ./shrug I think I'm done with PvP in this game. In a very short time its changed dramatically. I didn't think turfail could possibly make the moors worse, but once again they amaze me.

It's all perspective, everyone crys for change and when it comes they refuse to adapt. From a spiders point of view the moors is a more competitive enviroment which makes for better pvp.

Some questions about the moors.

Does anyone actually like grinding audacity? No.

Do veteran players make the moors better? Yes.

Can we expect people to play in the moors continualy for years? No. not enouph to do.

Who is to blame for the issues in the moors? Devs? wargs? freeps? think about it and you will probably realize it is everyones fault.

I am a part time creep, I play a few times a week and will last far longer than Super Nova toons that everyone knows will blow up and disappear.

Turbine Must adapt and create a new map/ New goals/ new something or people will leave... audacity is not new just a new form of recycled content deal with it or preceed to "Super nova" out and go play lego star wars or whatever tickles your fancy.

Originally Posted by hemenway90

As far as playstyle from when I've played, the only difference between you and mawgrim is you die far more often, playstyle is nearly identical from what I've seen.

lol, anyway, I guess we're done here.

Originally Posted by 22Acacia

lol, anyway, I guess we're done here.

Yeah, my post was incoherent use of english, what the point I was trying to make was that both parties only show up when there's a 100% chance of winning.

Solo players that play anywhere near the main engagement are free, easy points. Call it griefing or whatever, but you make the decision to be an easy target.. not the opposing side. Though it's repeated again and again.

Originally Posted by zaskoda

Solo players that play anywhere near the main engagement are free, easy points. Call it griefing or whatever, but you make the decision to be an easy target.. not the opposing side. Though it's repeated again and again.

Not blaming anyone or even complaining. I actually like the cat and mouse game of being a target. Just stomping out the BS.

Originally Posted by 22Acacia

Not blaming anyone or even complaining. I actually like the cat and mouse game of being a target. Just stomping out the BS.

Gotcha. And here's a picture.

Originally Posted by zaskoda

Gotcha. And here's a picture.

Ahahahaha.

Originally Posted by zaskoda

Gotcha. And here's a picture.

I got a warning for using this photo on the ToR forums

Originally Posted by hemenway90

I got a warning for using this photo on the ToR forums

If this was in any other forums but PvP it would garner infractions in LOTRO, but mods don't know that these forums even exist.

Originally Posted by Gladgilrian

If this was in any other forums but PvP it would garner infractions in LOTRO, but mods don't know that these forums even exist.

I seriously LOL'd at this ... +rep

I'm fairly new to the Moors and I see your point, but not all players lack integrity. My rating has changed quite a bit in a short time and I play for the game (I prefer Solo play) not to stomp butt in a gang of roving assailants. Battles are fought and won. For the most part I get my &&&& kicked because I started in the Moors at lev 71 and am just now half way to 75. Many people seem to think that the cards are stacked in favor of the Freeps but I think not. Wargs lay in wait and stomp unsuspectingly in packs, any one caught alone. Often I have been in battles with groups from both sides and have seen excellent game play and strategy. Bravery still exists and people still play with honor. Recently I had a 1v1 in the waterfall behind Hoardale and althoug it was 75 against 73-me the battle lasted longer than I expected and althoug I lost I felt I fought well and enjoyed the play. I often see 1v1's late at night and always the battles seem honorable! Although there are childish players in most all MMO's (and LOTRO has it's share)I think for the most part LOTRO has many players who remain within the realm of integrity and honor, but then again Creeps will be Creeps

Big fan of my ex-signature

Originally Posted by EiledonTruevoice

I'm fairly new to the Moors and I see your point, but not all players lack integrity. My rating has changed quite a bit in a short time and I play for the game (I prefer Solo play) not to stomp butt in a gang of roving assailants. Battles are fought and won. For the most part I get my &&&& kicked because I started in the Moors at lev 71 and am just now half way to 75. Many people seem to think that the cards are stacked in favor of the Freeps but I think not. Wargs lay in wait and stomp unsuspectingly in packs, any one caught alone. Often I have been in battles with groups from both sides and have seen excellent game play and strategy. Bravery still exists and people still play with honor. Recently I had a 1v1 in the waterfall behind Hoardale and althoug it was 75 against 73-me the battle lasted longer than I expected and althoug I lost I felt I fought well and enjoyed the play. I often see 1v1's late at night and always the battles seem honorable! Although there are childish players in most all MMO's (and LOTRO has it's share)I think for the most part LOTRO has many players who remain within the realm of integrity and honor, but then again Creeps will be Creeps

No offense to you, but if you come to the moors at less than level cap you are going to die, that's not the creeps fault, that's just the simple fact that you do not have the morale/resistances/gear. Just yesterday I saw a lvl 50ish in the moors with just over 2k health. That is a couple hits from a creep, or comparatively, one hit from a Runekeeper.

It is interesting to always read such hate for wargs, sure warg packs can hit you out of nowhere, you can't see them coming, so they get the jump on you. (but then so do burgs)

However some simple facts:

Not all wargs run in packs

A pack of wargs can still be nuked into oblivion by the lovely new TNT (Tactical Nuke Trios) you see running around doing the same things, they camp rez points, they camp grams, they camp popular paths. The only difference here is, wargs have stealth and hips, and the TNT has the ability to godmode overheal themselves plus usually double flops so anything OTHER than a coordinated attack would get nuked.

There is 0 difference between wargs grouping together to make up for overall crappier dps, and seeing 4 burgs out at the same time with their 2 Hips-FF-TNG. A nice example of this is, sure wargs can storm into EC to try to kill one target... sure good chances that target will die (even though probably one of the wargs at least will unless its one of the aforementioned godmode double floppers heal traited **snicker**) Ever see just ONE burg run into OC to kill a target (all the time) as they burn all their cd's, get the kill and get out with barely a scratch.

Basically the point here is you cannot judge integrity and honor by saying, "But I died in the moors at < Level 75 OMG"

I know many creeps who have shown integrity and honor, just as I have seen quite a few freeps also show them but hey, freeps will be freeps...


(the day I too can hit for 2k 2k 2k 8k+ is the day I will no longer say wargs have crappier dps)


cute pic to offset the lack of coffee this am.. <3

Thank You Bonescraper, first, I knew I would die at that low level, for me it was the sport of the game, winning or losing the battle has nothing to do with it.

Second as I said, I have witnessed many 1v1's that appeared to be quite amazing and fought with honor which included the Feep as well as Creep.

Now on the matter of Wargs, which appears to be close to your heart, I see your point. I can see some packs must exist to make up for the ability to fight fairly but not all. SO for this I apologize
to you and thank you for pointing this out! NO offense taken and I apologize if you were offended. Actually some of my greatest battles have been fought against Wargs and I have a great deal of respect for them. The way of the Warg has always been quite profound to me. I have fought two battles where I had to defeat the captain Wargs before doing battle with the Lead Warg. This being because if I had attempted to fight the lead, the pack would have torn me apart, but when I defeated the captains and the Lead, the Pack allowed me to walk away victorious. That, my friend is great honor! So yes I do see that Wargs have much more Honor than most foes! So please know that I am not one to hate Wargs, I simply have a healthy respect for their ability to kill and defend! May all your battles be good ones!

Best to you!

Originally Posted by Bonescraper79

No offense to you, but if you come to the moors at less than level cap you are going to die, that's not the creeps fault, that's just the simple fact that you do not have the morale/resistances/gear. Just yesterday I saw a lvl 50ish in the moors with just over 2k health. That is a couple hits from a creep, or comparatively, one hit from a Runekeeper.

It is interesting to always read such hate for wargs, sure warg packs can hit you out of nowhere, you can't see them coming, so they get the jump on you. (but then so do burgs)

However some simple facts:

Not all wargs run in packs

A pack of wargs can still be nuked into oblivion by the lovely new TNT (Tactical Nuke Trios) you see running around doing the same things, they camp rez points, they camp grams, they camp popular paths. The only difference here is, wargs have stealth and hips, and the TNT has the ability to godmode overheal themselves plus usually double flops so anything OTHER than a coordinated attack would get nuked.

There is 0 difference between wargs grouping together to make up for overall crappier dps, and seeing 4 burgs out at the same time with their 2 Hips-FF-TNG. A nice example of this is, sure wargs can storm into EC to try to kill one target... sure good chances that target will die (even though probably one of the wargs at least will unless its one of the aforementioned godmode double floppers heal traited **snicker**) Ever see just ONE burg run into OC to kill a target (all the time) as they burn all their cd's, get the kill and get out with barely a scratch.

Basically the point here is you cannot judge integrity and honor by saying, "But I died in the moors at < Level 75 OMG"

I know many creeps who have shown integrity and honor, just as I have seen quite a few freeps also show them but hey, freeps will be freeps...


(the day I too can hit for 2k 2k 2k 8k+ is the day I will no longer say wargs have crappier dps)


cute pic to offset the lack of coffee this am.. <3

Originally Posted by OGsam

I miss the days when you had to earn emotes through hidden deeds too.

Can you no longer unlock them that way?

Originally Posted by Jimeih

Can you no longer unlock them that way?

Good Elu, we have finally caught up... We can put all of our former PVE champ discussions to rest with the next topic. Let our next discussion of the PVE champion be based on... the way of continuous blood rage...

Originally Posted by Bonescraper79

A pack of wargs can still be nuked into oblivion by the lovely new TNT (Tactical Nuke Trios) you see running around doing the same things, they camp rez points, they camp grams, they camp popular paths. The only difference here is, wargs have stealth and hips, and the TNT has the ability to godmode overheal themselves plus usually double flops so anything OTHER than a coordinated attack would get nuked.

T N T
oi oi oi
T N T
oi oi oi
T N T
oi oi oi

Originally Posted by 22Acacia

T N T
oi oi oi
T N T
oi oi oi
T N T
oi oi oi

I love the Bee Gee's!

Originally Posted by hemenway90

I love the Bee Gee's!

Then you'll love this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdvfmGPDVkk

Make sure you check out the guy's face at exactly 3:34.