Thread: Compilation of changes to the Warden.

Originally Posted by LagunaD

I have more or less stopped playing LotRO, but just stopped by to see what was new...and, wow, they have really, totally, completely botched this.

Requiring WotW traited to have "normal" masteries is a huge, Huge, HUGE mistake. Because our non-legendary class traits are not very good, investing the three slots for masteries currently does not really cost us very much. If they make this change, and I want to tank in something resembling the way I do now, it means I have to give up:

1) A legendary capstone, or
2) My only force taunt, or
3) My multi-target pulling skill (JoDF)

However you slice it, I am losing some very important capability just to keep what I have now.

Moreover, the "double mastery" replacements for the current mastery traits are utterly useless. Utterly. Useless.

In literally years of extended and usually thoughtful discussion here, we have been asking for relatively modest changes to bring the class on par for tanking, and incrementally improve quality of life.

And instead they decide to give us this...random mess.

I go down the list and after every point I find myself asking..."What were they thinking when they came up with *this* awful idea?"

We're not getting buffed. It's more like we're getting scrambled.

In the immortal words of Celandine Brandybuck: "It's terrible, just terrible!"

you could also drop GMWT as you don't really need it for tanking, in particular since we are likely to get some kind of threat reduction placed on spear gambits.

also, Orion suggested that we will be getting another force taunt.

Originally Posted by Lasitus

I am less than happy about the changes to Way of the Warden. I have absolutely no desire to go through the epic quest process to get this trait. It seems like I will have to now. This change takes away the abilities that I have grown used to and requires a lot of work to get them back. I do not really have a lot of play time, and this feels like it will be a huge waste of what I do have.

No, it doesn't, it only adds a new option. Unless I am mistaken (?) we still keep the regular mastery traits. So if you want to continue like you do atm it's no problem. And if you are one who use WoTW on a regular basis atm, then this is just a good thing for you all out.

For most people I expect this means they trade three class slots for one legendary, though.

Edit: Well it looks like you are right after all. I missed the part where masteries were made into double-builder builders. In light of this I agree with you. I think we're really starting to clutter our quick bars. Three builders, one to execute - that's the original warden. Now add three double-builders and six masteries - we've more then tripled what is original warden, and a large thanks goes to the forced-up on us potency mess. All of a sudden I feel a lot more negative about this whole thing.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

No, it doesn't, it only adds a new option. Unless I am mistaken (?) we still keep the regular mastery traits. So if you want to continue like you do atm it's no problem. And if you are one who use WoTW on a regular basis atm, then this is just a good thing for you all out.

For most people I expect this means they trade three class slots for one legendary, though.

nope, WoTW is a must for masteries, current mastery traits will give double builders only (i.e. sp-sp, sh-sh, fi-fi).

and one mandatory legendary isn't bad, for Hunters 2 are essentially musts (BA and RoT).

Originally Posted by lf2536

nope, WoTW is a must for masteries, current mastery traits will give double builders only (i.e. sp-sp, sh-sh, fi-fi).

and one mandatory legendary isn't bad, for Hunters 2 are essentially musts (BA and RoT).

Yes I went to check and edited my post. The things is we will basically have two - WoTW and capstone. Oh and those aren't required for a hunter, many boss fights laugh at them (Watcher and Filikul for instance).

Great discussion! Took a whole cup of coffee to read, but what the heck, im not doing anything at work. +rep to the OP

I agree thanks to the OP for collating all the forthcoming changes it does indeed make it easier for many players of wardens.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Yes I went to check and edited my post. The things is we will basically have two - WoTW and capstone. Oh and those aren't required for a hunter, many boss fights laugh at them (Watcher and Filikul for instance).

you are serisouly giving those as examples of why you don't need those skills? how about when soloing or when grouping without a LM (and sometimes with one)? lair raids are not a good example of why you don't need something, if they were you could say that entire Chump AoE line would be usesless, we know that's not true though.

I added this to the Sticky so that it won't get lost.

Originally Posted by lf2536

you are serisouly giving those as examples of why you don't need those skills? how about when soloing or when grouping without a LM (and sometimes with one)? lair raids are not a good example of why you don't need something, if they were you could say that entire Chump AoE line would be usesless, we know that's not true though.

Well they aren't exactly much use in all of OD either. Fear boss fight for example, those are the type of places where they are of no help at all. In short they are situational skill that aren't necessary 100 % of the time. And yes, I am assuming a capstone and masteries to be - because with the extra class slots not slotting 5 of one line sounds silly to me (though I never tried..) and going without masteries is an old discussion where most agree you need at least some masteries (and we will only have the choice of all or none).

Lair raids or not, a lot of people retrait for boss fights. Champ AOE line is also situational, you don't see many champs taking AOE traits with them 100 % of the time.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Well they aren't exactly much use in all of OD either. Fear boss fight for example, those are the type of places where they are of no help at all. In short they are situational skill that aren't necessary 100 % of the time. And yes, I am assuming a capstone and masteries to be - because with the extra class slots not slotting 5 of one line sounds silly to me (though I never tried..) and going without masteries is an old discussion where most agree you need at least some masteries (and we will only have the choice of all or none).

Lair raids or not, a lot of people retrait for boss fights. Champ AOE line is also situational, you don't see many champs taking AOE traits with them 100 % of the time.

not slotting 5 in any particular line is not a silly thing at all on some classes, I know that on my Hunter I run 4/2/1 as I never found any of the capstones really appealing.

also, boss fights are the exception to the rule, the rest of the time unless the mobs you are fighting are specifically CC immune those 2 legendaries are game changing. a Hunter running with them has far more survivability then one that does not, simple as that, want proof? try fighting multiple mobs with and without them, see how you fare.

and while the chump AoE line is not needed for lair raids and the like I'd like to the see the chump that doesn't slot at least 2 AoE traits, since, as I've stated, you will usually be fighting more then one mob, in groups even if boss fights last longer then trash there are far fewer boss fights then there are trash fights. a chump without AoE traits is not as usefull for a group as a chump with them.

Originally Posted by lf2536

not slotting 5 in any particular line is not a silly thing at all on some classes, I know that on my Hunter I run 4/2/1 as I never found any of the capstones really appealing.

also, boss fights are the exception to the rule, the rest of the time unless the mobs you are fighting are specifically CC immune those 2 legendaries are game changing. a Hunter running with them has far more survivability then one that does not, simple as that, want proof? try fighting multiple mobs with and without them, see how you fare.

and while the chump AoE line is not needed for lair raids and the like I'd like to the see the chump that doesn't slot at least 2 AoE traits, since, as I've stated, you will usually be fighting more then one mob, in groups even if boss fights last longer then trash there are far fewer boss fights then there are trash fights. a chump without AoE traits is not as usefull for a group as a chump with them.

I am afraid you're missing the point. The 5 traits of one kind was an argument why wardens have two legendaries predetermined, nothing about other classes.

It is true that a hunter gains much from them - but still only when they are at all useful. There aren't many legendary traits worth slotting at all for a hunter, though, so as far as I know they usually just keep them on all the time no matter if they can use them or not (I do on my hunter, them hunter capstones are #### anyway.) It's not about proof of their use when useful, it's about them not being useful 100 % of the time, as I outlined quite clearly.

The champ argument is simply meaningless, since, again, it was about legendary traits which you must keep on you at all times. Deathstorm is nifty indeed, but as I say, I don't think all champs keep it equipped at all times.

Edit: lol, I'm not allowed to say ####

Originally Posted by LagunaD

I have more or less stopped playing LotRO, but just stopped by to see what was new...and, wow, they have really, totally, completely botched this.

Requiring WotW traited to have "normal" masteries is a huge, Huge, HUGE mistake. Because our non-legendary class traits are not very good, investing the three slots for masteries currently does not really cost us very much. If they make this change, and I want to tank in something resembling the way I do now, it means I have to give up:

1) A legendary capstone, or
2) My only force taunt, or
3) My multi-target pulling skill (JoDF)

However you slice it, I am losing some very important capability just to keep what I have now.

Moreover, the "double mastery" replacements for the current mastery traits are utterly useless. Utterly. Useless.

In literally years of extended and usually thoughtful discussion here, we have been asking for relatively modest changes to bring the class on par for tanking, and incrementally improve quality of life.

And instead they decide to give us this...random mess.

I go down the list and after every point I find myself asking..."What were they thinking when they came up with *this* awful idea?"

We're not getting buffed. It's more like we're getting scrambled.

In the immortal words of Celandine Brandybuck: "It's terrible, just terrible!"

I'm glad laguna posted, I'm just holding off on a post like this until we are given final changes. Orion made some changes after the final champ blogs came out so hopefully we'll get a chance to weigh in then. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of attention orion has been giving to minstrels while we've been dry for weeks. I'm just hoping we get the same or better amount of attention.

Originally Posted by striverg

I'm glad laguna posted, I'm just holding off on a post like this until we are given final changes. Orion made some changes after the final champ blogs came out so hopefully we'll get a chance to weigh in then. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of attention orion has been giving to minstrels while we've been dry for weeks. I'm just hoping we get the same or better amount of attention.

The changes made to minis have changed my mind about the warden changes.

When Orion stated that he wouldn't be able to change warden trait-lines (fist mostly) and our legacies etc. I assumed he had a good reason for it, that perhaps he was busy with some other important work or Turbine just couldn't do it right now. I didn't realize he was running off to screw up minis. That class, more than almost any other, has a solid, well defined role, secondary role, and heck even tertiary role in groups. They heal well, have good survivability (they are beast in the moors), they can DPS, buff, etc etc. At best mini's needed a very minor tweak here and there, a total revamp like what they got was completely uncalled for.

I find it incredibly frustrating that wardens, who have substantial issues, are being put on the back burner behind minis, who needed small tweaks at most. Wardens have an entirely useless trait line, we have some "meh" legacies, maybe one or two good ones depending on who you ask, but TONS of ###### ones, we have useless/redundant traits, we have many many useless or outdated gambits, we need some entirely new skills to be functional... the point is this class is solid but unrefined in a sense. The mini? Heck, they were updated just a few months ago and everyone was thrilled with the changes, go to the mini forum and you will find very few people suggesting changes or complaining because there just aren't many things in need of changing.

I have to say the whole thing has just left me scratching my head in confusion.

The rant over though, I do like the changes to the class so far; but I am much less happy with them when I see that the reason we aren't getting the other things we have been politely requesting for 2 years is because Turbine has decided it would be fun to confuse the minstrel community.

Originally Posted by Regero

The changes made to minis have changed my mind about the warden changes.

I have to say the whole thing has just left me scratching my head in confusion.

And now there are announced changes to Cappies and LMs, both of which received major work recently as well. Setting aside the lackluster (to say the least) Never Surrender, Wardens have been basically untouched since they were released. Like Reg says, the class is solid, but unpolished. There is so much more work that needs to be done to refine the Warden class, that any reworking of a class like LM, which has been updated 4 or 5 times since launch - the last update coming only a few months ago - is extremely confusing and frustrating. Do the devs just not like the Warden class? Do they wish they had never designed it in the first place? I must confess to a growing concern that someone at Turbine seriously dislikes us for some unknown reason. All the information regarding our upcoming Warden "update" is so discouraging, that rather than making me happy we're getting some dev attention, I'm seriously thinking about leaving lotro before RoI even hits. I have no interest in watching my beloved Warden class get incrementally marginalized for another two years.

Is there dev at Turbine who even plays the Warden class?!?

Originally Posted by Colred

All the information regarding our upcoming Warden "update" is so discouraging, that rather than making me happy we're getting some dev attention, I'm seriously thinking about leaving lotro before RoI even hits. I have no interest in watching my beloved Warden class get incrementally marginalized for another two years.

Is there dev at Turbine who even plays the Warden class?!?

NNOOO!! Not Colred! You're supposed to be the one who argues with me and says wardens are fine. Don't give up.

My estimation of the usage of orion's time:
30% champions
40% minstrels
20% writing blogs for other classes
10% wardens

Originally Posted by Colred

... All the information regarding our upcoming Warden "update" is so discouraging, that rather than making me happy we're getting some dev attention, I'm seriously thinking about leaving lotro before RoI even hits. I have no interest in watching my beloved Warden class get incrementally marginalized for another two years.

Is there dev at Turbine who even plays the Warden class?!?

If warden is marginalized it won't be hard walk away from lotro for awhile. Plenty of awesome coming out on platforms and PC, IMO. I'm hoping that this isn't the case and warden will get the love it deserves. I already pre-ordered expansion and am just hoping for the best.

I'll still be here, I'll just be leveling my LM from 65 to 75 instead of my Warden, and then probably followed by my Burg, then maybe my Captain or better yet my RK then my Captain, followed by my Guard or Warden.

But this is of course assuming BF3 doesn't cut too terribly hard into my lotro time or that SWTOR launches in the same month lol

Anyone know when these changes are eventually due to be implemented? RoI? Sooner?

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Anyone know when these changes are eventually due to be implemented? RoI? Sooner?

They'll be coming with Rise.

Originally Posted by ANewMachine

They'll be coming with Rise.

So I'm supposed to shell out more money for the RoI expansion, on top of the monthly sub I already pay, in the hope that the minor rework Wardens are supposed to be getting will be worth it?!? A 10-level expansion should see significant additions to every class. If our "update" is being rolled into the expansion, it's not really an update, is it? Not only that, but if what's been discussed so far is the entirety of new additions to the class for RoI (I just can't believe that would be the case), then what's the point?

No, Reg, Wardens are not okay and IMO have never been properly rounded out. I disagree with some of the things people claim we need (like a force taunt or more HoT pulses), but I've repeatedly made my position clear on the lack of useful traits and legacies, variety of build options, the weaknesses of the Fist line, and the odd avoidance of useful one-click skills that could easily solve so many problems.

Not of that takes away from the awesomeness of the gambit system in design terms - it's as fun and challenging and engaging as any combat system I've ever come across in an mmo - but doing something 80% right the first time still leaves 20% that can be improved upon. The fact that Turbine hasn't addressed that 20%, and may apparently short-change us on the expansion, is extremely concerning to me. As LtD said, this will be a banner year for MMOs. I've enjoyed Lotro for a long time, but there are too many good options out there for me to waste my time and money on a game that seems to have little concern for the class I find most appealing.

Whenever the Warden update comes out, if Turbine doesn't address so many of the obvious issues our class still has, and opts instead for some distracting bells and whistles and a new coat of paint to cover up the rot, that'll be it for me. I'll go play a Jedi or Bloodguard or NinjaWizardPowerRanger and never look back. Alas for the Free Peoples of Middle Earth. They'll have to get by with a Guardian in my place.

Yeah it will be hard to really sway my attention from the upcoming releases, I'll still love lotro, I bought a lifetime account for a reason, but it likely won't see much use for a few months unless they really bring something to the table. But of course I want to stay optimistic because we still don't have any clear cut information as too what is or isn't coming.

Originally Posted by Colred

No, Reg, Wardens are not okay and IMO have never been properly rounded out.

What is it with people doing this to me? Once again I find myself saying:

WE AGREE ON THIS SUBJECT. lol, what're you pickin on me for?

I even said earlier in this thread, and you quoted me, that wardens are not properly fleshed out in a variety of ways.

Originally Posted by LtDiablo

But of course I want to stay optimistic because we still don't have any clear cut information as too what is or isn't coming.

This. I'm a bit mad that wardens are getting brushed over for, imo, some down-right silly changes, but we are getting some help at long last and Orion said in the mini thread that "Wardens will have their day" Turbine has not overlooked us, I don't believe that. I am just mad we have been bumped back in favor of other changes that are far less pressing and far more time consuming.

Originally Posted by Regero

This. I'm a bit mad that wardens are getting brushed over for, imo, some down-right silly changes, but we are getting some help at long last and Orion said in the mini thread that "Wardens will have their day" Turbine has not overlooked us, I don't believe that. I am just mad we have been bumped back in favor of other changes that are far less pressing and far more time consuming.

Definitely agreed there. Champs and Minnies were perfectly functional in their main roles, but Wardens have big problems with theirs and we get far less attention? I really think people think we're more OP than we are b ecause of the soloing crazy stuff. Doesn't help much in OD that you can solo Coldbear, though.

Originally Posted by Regero

What is it with people doing this to me? Once again I find myself saying:

WE AGREE ON THIS SUBJECT. lol, what're you pickin on me for?

Sorry for the confusion, Reg. I know we agree. I was saying "no" to your statement that I'm supposed to disagree with you. That "no" was basically, "no, I agree with you Reg - the Warden is not OK."

You got a complex about people picking on you or something? :P No one else here does. Nope. Nuh-uh.

Yay. Fervour inc healing penalties removed and glory tanking without a shield. Everyone knows champs are in such dire (har, har, get it?) need of buffs.

http://www.massiveonlinegamer.com/announcements/1244

Warden changes are even mentioned.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Yay. Fervour inc healing penalties removed and glory tanking without a shield. Everyone knows champs are in such dire (har, har, get it?) need of buffs.

http://www.massiveonlinegamer.com/announcements/1244

Warden changes are even mentioned.

...so lets remove the penalty we instilled to make Champs not tank in Fervour only to take off the penalty right as you're trying to overhaul glory for them to use to tank with...but wont use because now they can tank in Fervour again?

Originally Posted by Regero

What is it with people doing this to me? Once again I find myself saying:

WE AGREE ON THIS SUBJECT. lol, what're you pickin on me for?

I even said earlier in this thread, and you quoted me, that wardens are not properly fleshed out in a variety of ways.



This. I'm a bit mad that wardens are getting brushed over for, imo, some down-right silly changes, but we are getting some help at long last and Orion said in the mini thread that "Wardens will have their day" Turbine has not overlooked us, I don't believe that. I am just mad we have been bumped back in favor of other changes that are far less pressing and far more time consuming.

I know i don't post here often if at all ,but i'm always reading it on a daily basis. So i hope what i say here will still have a strong impact since i love the warden class as much as all of you do.

I feel exactly how you do Regero ,I think our "Warden Day" was that small thread were Orion decided to actually look in our direction for once and say "Oh there you are,here have some changes". When instead i really wished for Orion to tap us on the shoulder and say "Hey i haven't forgotten about you and i'm gonna give you the attention you deserve."

Honestly i was crushed when Orion didn't give us the amount of time and attention he gave the other classes during their blog feedback threads. Orion sees us but he's not really looking at us.

I looked at the Dev Tracker a few days back and noticed the enormous amount of responses on the Mini's update blog and it infuriates me to no end that Mini's are getting the kind of attention that we should've been given when Orion first posted his proposed changes to the warden class.

I'm a very pessimistic person so when Orion says "Wardens will have their day" well if that day is gonna be a year or 2 from now i'm not gonna care what happens to the warden class that day. It would be too little too late by then.

P.S. Orion gave a tiny hint that there are more warden changes coming regarding our leech abilities so my question is "Why is Orion being vague with Wardens about some of the proposed changes and yet completely open with the other classes that are being updated? I'm sorry Orion i'm just really unhappy with how the Warden class is being treated with these class updates.

Originally Posted by HalProudFoot

P.S. Orion gave a tiny hint that there are more warden changes coming regarding our leech abilities so my question is "Why is Orion being vague with Wardens about some of the proposed changes and yet completely open with the other classes that are being updated? I'm sorry Orion i'm just really unhappy with how the Warden class is being treated with these class updates.

agreed, I don't understand why we can't get the needed attention on our very first ever update since launch.

My inner optimist says thats because Orion wants to surprise us with well thought out and rounded package of changes that will fix most our problems. My realistic side is fuming because i've paid for my Warden with hard earned money, and now i have to watch other classes with far less problems getting much more attention. Hello! Paying customers here Turbine! I dont have such complaints about my RK - so why Warden is so neglected?

My guess is we will get some weird update, without any main goal, confusing and almost completly useless
- much like the yellow line in other words

I know we need positive changes made to the warden class and i know Orion knows it as well obviously (He's already thrown out a small portion of proposed changes for us). But i think it's fair to say that we deserve to see the whole picture. I think the warden community needs to see where this class is going,and what the Dev's want from this class.

Every class in the game has a purpose that is pretty clearly defined except Warden's. I see it all the time with the armour sets we are given. I look at some of the set bonuses and i get confused as to what they were trying to accomplish there.

Then i look at the Fist line and with the exception of the first trait bonus i am confused as well. What was the point of putting redundant bonuses there?

I get that the Dev's want wardens to struggle like hell to properly tank in these new raids and to be honest i don't even feel like a tank in the OD raids. I feel like some piece of #### class that has no business being there. I'm a pity spot!
Did you know that Orion?

Most warden's are pity spots cause alot of raid leaders have no confidence in this class,no confidence at all.
If were going to be classified as "Tanks" then give us the skills to do it, instead of going "Here's an awesome new skill Warden's oh and btw let me tack on this penalty for you.

P.S. Sorry guess i have a lot of pent up warden anger there.

Originally Posted by Scotius

My inner optimist says thats because Orion wants to surprise us with well thought out and rounded package of changes that will fix most our problems. My realistic side is fuming because i've paid for my Warden with hard earned money, and now i have to watch other classes with far less problems getting much more attention. Hello! Paying customers here Turbine! I dont have such complaints about my RK - so why Warden is so neglected?

I really wish that was the case Scotius ,some nice well thought out surprise waiting for us. But i don't believe that's gonna happen. What i believe is gonna happen is the changes that Orion proposed so far with tweeks based on beta testing of course and that will be it.

Mini's are clearly getting the Warden's spot for this round of class update's,Champs are getting their update as they should and i hope that guardians get their tweaks and fixes.

Given the time frame for when the expansion is coming out i seriously doubt Orion will have time to get that much done before beta testing for the new expansion starts.

Warden's will be pissing in the wind in what should've been a champ/warden/guard class update.

I dread the day updates hits. Will i hear then from my kin leader: "Y'know Scot - stop wasting time on levelling your Warden and get champ out of storage. Coz' we could use him in next raid."? And this guy is pretty Warden friendly, and has Ward alt too :/ And what about all the beginners that ask me in Bree if Warden is worth spending all the money/TPs ? So far answer was always "Yes." Will i have to tell them: "Only if you want to play solo."?

/rant.

But im still bitter

Originally Posted by Scotius

I dread the day updates hits. Will i hear then from my kin leader: "Y'know Scot - stop wasting time on levelling your Warden and get champ out of storage. Coz' we could use him in next raid."? And this guy is pretty Warden friendly, and has Ward alt too :/ And what about all the beginners that ask me in Bree if Warden is worth spending all the money/TPs ? So far answer was always "Yes." Will i have to tell them: "Only if you want to play solo."?

/rant.

But im still bitter

I'm always honest when someone asks me if starting a warden is worth it. I tell them that it is fun as hell and solo's really well,but if you plan on doing any end game raiding then it's a serious up hill battle to even get on a raid.

I don't think its fair to sugar coat the reality of what the class has to deal with when it comes to end game raids.
As well as redudant class traits and class trait bonuses among other things that have already been mentioned to death.

Funny you say that cause i snap at ppl when they suggest i should play a different class as if that will solve all the problems wardens have. lol I guess i'm a day dreamer hoping that wardens will finally get some TLC.

Hey just a heads up, since I haven't seen anyone else post it. Orion posted this in the Minstrel thread. More warden change updates on the way next week.

Originally Posted by Orion

That was the plan, but, based on concerns and statements...I am in the midst of a second draft. Look for more on this near the middle of the week.

More on Champs and Wardens then too...hopefully.

Adding masteries to WoTW instead of making them trainable skills is a terrible idea. Why can't they just make them trainable skills as THEY ARE PRETTY MUCH REQUIRED TO PLAY THE CLASS TO FULL CAPACITY. The double icon mastery sounds kind of fishy as well, but some of the other changes i'm very interested to see.

Originally Posted by sunaris

Adding masteries to WoTW instead of making them trainable skills is a terrible idea. Why can't they just make them trainable skills as THEY ARE PRETTY MUCH REQUIRED TO PLAY THE CLASS TO FULL CAPACITY. The double icon mastery sounds kind of fishy as well, but some of the other changes i'm very interested to see.

I don't know why they can't just make masteries trainable. It'd make that little bit less painful. Quite frankly, I miss having WC fears traited. I had so much fun with that trait.

Originally Posted by shdowhunt60

I don't know why they can't just make masteries trainable. It'd make that little bit less painful. Quite frankly, I miss having WC fears traited. I had so much fun with that trait.

Agreed,I've never understood why the Dev's make Warden's pay such a high price on some of our skills. Sure i understand "reasonable" drawbacks to certains skills in a given classs,but really it's like we constantly have to take a kick to the teeth before or after we use a "useful" skill in our inventory.

An advanced class doesn't translate to having more severe drawbacks to certain skills then other classes which seems to be the case with wardens. I can't think of another class in the game that has to pay such a high price like wardens do .

Instead of getting screwed in our class traits with Masteries now will get screwed in our legendary traits .......yay us!

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

Hey just a heads up, since I haven't seen anyone else post it. Orion posted this in the Minstrel thread. More warden change updates on the way next week.

Oh good ....maybe the warden's day is coming ....