What follows is a list of the possible upcoming changes to the warden class. Because this information has been introduced over the course of about a week (edit: more like several months now lol) not everyone is entirely clear on the possible changes and so I thought it might be a good idea to bring it all together. Read it over, see what you think when you see it as one large proposal, and see if you still see anything missing, or if anything is needed, to the update.
Yep, its a feedback thread pretty much, but as the others have derailed into one thing or another and there seem to be many misconceptions in them, I thought I would make just one more. Remember though, as Orion says every few minutes, everything is subject to change.
Upcoming Skill Changes:
Determination-- Determination will be getting some crit defense and some ICPR added to it (roughly 360 Crit Defense and 150 ICPR). The crit defense will increase if you trait 4 deep into the Fist line.
Never Surrender-- This skill will become a Panic Button on a 15 minute cooldown. When activated the skill will apply the "Invincible" buff to you. If, during the 5 minutes that buff is on you, you drop beneath 5% morale, you are insta-healed for 75% of you morale and 50% of your power. After that the Invincible buff is removed and penalties are applied. These penalties are the same as the current Never Surrender and last 2 minutes. Note that the 15 minute cooldown on the skill begins as soon as you apply Invincible to yourself, resulting in basically 10 minute downtime on the skill. Note: as of ROI's launch the penalties on this skill will still be 5 minutes, Orion has stated this will be corrected in a future patch)
Javelin Toss-- Will receive a light bleed effect. 90 damage every 4 seconds for 20 seconds.
Mighty Blow/ Unerring Strike-- Spear bleeds of a higher tier will do increased damage if a bleed of the lower tier is active. For example, if Power Attack's bleed is going, using Mighty Blow will deal extra damage. Unerring Strike will do the same if Mighty blow's bleed is in effect. How much damage that will equate to is currently unknown.
Upcoming Trait Changes:
Skill and Power-- Every successful spear gambit will lower the cooldown on Shield Piercer by 3 seconds.
Wary Blocks-- increases the duration of the buff from Defensive Strike and Dance of War by 10 seconds.
Efficient Shieldwork-- extends to all shield masteries.
Fist Two Set Bonus-- (in addition to what it does now) Provides +1 Fist Gambit Heal over Time Pulses
Fist Four Set Bonus-- (In addition to what it does now) Increases the Critical Defense of Determination
Shield Four Set Bonus-- (instead of its current +10% healing) Will grant +2 HoT pulses.This change will NOT be happening
Way of the Warden-- Will grant the stance: Way of the Warden, and will also now come with all six mastery skills (the class mastery traits will now have different functions). NOTE: You do NOT need to be in the stance to have access to the Masteries, you simply need to have the trait itself equipped.
Master of the Spear/Shield/Fist-- Instead of providing the 6 current masteries, these skills will now apply a "Double Builder" Mastery. Master of the Spear for example will put a spear-spear into your gambit bar. The Mastery (not the Gambit) will have a power cost of zero.
Potency and Battle Memory:
Potency-- Potency is an effect achieved by using one of the three "double gambits" (Goad, Defensive Strike, Deft Strike). Potency by default has a 25% chance to be applied upon use of one of these gambits, traited 4 deep into any line will increase that chance to 100% on any of those three gambits. When the warden becomes Potent, a visual effect will be applied to them to let them know they have become Potent.
Battle Memory-- Once a warden comes Potent, the next gambit they use in addition to being activated will be saved into the Battle Memory slot. This gambit can then be activated whenever a warden chooses to at the cost of a % of their max morale. Once activated, the Battle Memory slot is cleared and a new gambit may be entered. battle Memory can not hold any of the "Double Gambits" nor can it be changed until the gambit loaded into it is used first. The morale cost of a Battle mastery gambit is 1% of morale for each gambit builder used. IE: Conviction costs 5%, the Boot costs 2%.
New Skills:
*note that this is the simple version, pictures and more detailed information can be found in the link at the bottom of this section*
Deflection-- Fist-Shield-Spear
"Greatly Decreases threat against a single target"
Shield Tactics-- Shield-Fist-Spear-Fist
+1500 Tactical Mitigation
10 second stun immunity, stun immunity may only be used once every 30 seconds
Aggression-- Fist-Shield-Spear-Fist
Current information indicates this skill leaches 10% of threat from all members of the fellowship within 25m of the warden. (unconfirmed)
Here are pics of the new skills: Pics of brand new skill tooltips! (too many images to all fit in here lol)
Thanks to Mysterion for the pics!
Miscellaneous Changes:
Spear Gambits-- Will possibly have their threat output reduced.As no word has been mentioned on this later than the very first ROI dev diary, it is assumed to not be happening.
Morale Leaches-- Will be adjusted so as to be more useful in harder 6-mans and raids.This will NOT be happening
Warden Skill Costs-- Warden power costs have been reduced across the board by a value of 10%
ROI Warden Armor:
This armor comes from the 24 man raid of RoI. It has been stated that the stat values will likely change based on feedback. Also, notice how different this armor set is as compared with current ones, these RoI armor sets are highly customized to the type of class and that classes function. In the wardens case we get might (our primary stat) a LOT of Vitality, as well as some other defensive bonuses.
pic:
Stats: Note that these will likely be different in ROI
3 set bonus – +5 second stun immunity from Shield Tactics
4 set bonus – +304 Melee/Ranged Offence Rating
5 set bonus – Never Surrender CD reduced by 5 minutes
Important RoI Changes That Effect The Warden:
Block, Parry, Evade Ratings-- BPE Ratings will now cap at 25%.
Incoming Healing-- Inc. Healing now caps at 30%
Stats-- The cap on stats will now be completely removed, in addition Might and Agility will now make much more significant contributions to BPE. Might will now also be the wardebs "primary stat". This means that might will be the primary factor in effecting all forms of our offense. The effect of might on offense will be determined as: (Value of Primary stat) x 10.
Resistances and Mitigations-- There will no longer be specific resistance bonuses, there will only be +resistance effects. This new bonus will cover all forms of resistance rather than individual values. Similarly, there will no longer be bonuses (on gear/traits/etc.) to Fire Defense, Lighting Defense, etc: there will only be tactical mitigation.
Mighty Blow/ Unerring Strike-- These skills will remove the bleed effect from the gambit of the tier beneath them. Mighty Blow removes Power Attack's bleed for extra damage, Unerring Strike does the same with Mighty Blow. Mighty Blow can also remove the bleed from Javelin Toss. How much damage that will equate to is currently unknown.
These? already in there homes
Glad y'all are enjoying the list, I'm going to keep it updated as we learn new things.
Ghost Bear see problem. Nice peoples looking at Horse mouth. Ghost bear look at Horse belly. Horse make good snack!
Shield Four Set Bonus-- (instead of its current +10% healing) Will grant +2 HoT pulses.
Wasn't there also something about combining or changing the current two +1 HoT pulse traits? I don't see it on Orion's main post, maybe it was a suggested thing in the forums and not on the actual roadmap.
As it stands, will we really be able to get +6 total pulses? +2 two traits, +2 set bonus, +2 capstone?
I was watching with great interest on Orion's Blogs, especially the Warden ones, but looking at this now it all makes a little more sense to me. I hope the fist gambit +heal pulses trait will affect the fist healing/leeching gambits, been waiting for an upgrade like that ever since I unlocked the gambits when the world was younger.
it looks like you can stack it, that you start with 5-gambits then 4->3 (how i build it now)... i think that removing dots effects will work only for applying gambit
The point is that the next DoT up the gambit chain will do more damage than the DoT itself. So your overall DPS should go up, even more if you let it tick a bit before you remove it. And it doesn't apply to the light-based Fist bleed gambits (Surety of Death et al), either, so you can still stack those.
If you build the DoT's in the order of PA- MB- US you will only have the bleed from US ticking but you will have done much higher burst damage in exchange.
If you still want the bleeds, you just need to build the spear gambits US- MB- PA, then you will still have all three bleeds ticking.
This is a change I think to address some wardens complaints that we can't deal very good burst DPS when so much of our damage comes from bleeds which take 18 seconds to finish their DPS. It also serves to add some more depth into our damage rotations.
Ghost Bear see problem. Nice peoples looking at Horse mouth. Ghost bear look at Horse belly. Horse make good snack!
If you build the DoT's in the order of PA- MB- US you will only have the bleed from US ticking but you will have done much higher burst damage in exchange.
If you still want the bleeds, you just need to build the spear gambits US- MB- PA, then you will still have all three bleeds ticking.
This is a change I think to address some wardens complaints that we can't deal very good burst DPS when so much of our damage comes from bleeds which take 18 seconds to finish their DPS. It also serves to add some more depth into our damage rotations.
Plus, in theory, you can use this rotation to efficiently chop off a DoT for damage bonus. It'll require good timing.
US - MB - PA - US (removing MB Bleed) - MB (removing PA bleed) - PA
So if you get a bonus for applying a higher tier bleed, let as much of the lower tier bleed tic off before removing it using above rotation. (I think I posted it elsewhere, but i think it's worth repeating)
Seeing it all in one place, I feel like the Skill Changes are the most likely to be helpful. More dps, making both NS and Determination more viable - these are good things.
The trait changes are...disappointing, to say the least. The one bright light is WotW now containing all 6 masteries. I'm not sure how I feel about making WotW so overwhelmingly powerful compared to the other Legendary traits, but getting the masteries out of the class trait realm is a step in the right direction, at least. The change to the Shield Four-set bonus is actually a healing nerf in my mind, as that lost 10% in healing magnitude can't be recovered by extra pulses. We need bigger heals to help counter spike-damage, not more smaller heals.
Potency and Bat-Mem has potential, but currently seems like a lot of work for very little return.
I'm unsure about the Miscellaneous changes:
I don't like the threat nerf that spear gambits are getting. I rely on those gambits to do dps while in tank mode. Lowering their threat components means I'll need to devote more of my tank rotations to power-hungry and low-dps threat gambits. This change will lose me dps and increase my power consumption. No thank you.
Morale leeches need a buff - I'm excited about this change.
The new gambits have potential. I don't see much need for a threat dump. Guards don't have one, and for good reason. I also don't feel we need a snap-aggro skill, though I know I'm in the minority there, but additional tanking gambits are at least potentially helpful. Some form of stun/disarm resistance or immunity would be very welcome, especially seeing as how every class has at least one skill like that, except the Warden.
After seeing it all together, I have very mixed feelings. I think more of the changes will be positive than I first thought; however, a significant number of the changes (mostly regarding the traits) seem odd and ineffective to me. In addition, one of the biggest areas of concern - legacies - has been completely ignored. Perhaps this is because legacies are undergoing their own revamp along with the whole LI system? One can only hope.
The change to the Shield Four-set bonus is actually a healing nerf in my mind, as that lost 10% in healing magnitude can't be recovered by extra pulses. We need bigger heals to help counter spike-damage, not more smaller heals.
I agree with you to a point, but this will also give us more survivability over-all I think. With this change you can put your HoT's up, and then instead of spending your time refreshing them you can buff, taunt, DPS, etc. Right now for example, especially in raids, I usually find myself keeping WoS and SM up, and then maybe 1 HoT (Conviction lol) up for most of the fight because I don't have time to spend keeping HoT's up when I need to be taunting and reacting to the fight.
Originally Posted by Colred
Potency and Bat-Mem has potential, but currently seems like a lot of work for very little return.
If it wasn't already linked above I would link my idea thread again lol
Originally Posted by Colred
I don't like the threat nerf that spear gambits are getting. I rely on those gambits to do dps while in tank mode. Lowering their threat components means I'll need to devote more of my tank rotations to power-hungry and low-dps threat gambits. This change will lose me dps and increase my power consumption. No thank you.
100% agreed. Orion said that he would be changing threat output of spear gambits because he felt that may be the reason wardens were pulling aggro when we didn't mean to. Frankly that's a very small aspect of the problems we face (I don't count it as a problem at all, who cares if I have aggro? I'm a tank). If you want this changed rather than damaging our spear-line threat I would rather just see a reduced threat effect applied to Recklessness similarly to what Hunters have on Endurance.
Originally Posted by Colred
Morale leeches need a buff - I'm excited about this change.
S'gonna be sweeeet!
Originally Posted by Colred
The new gambits have potential. I don't see much need for a threat dump. Guards don't have one, and for good reason. I also don't feel we need a snap-aggro skill, though I know I'm in the minority there, but additional tanking gambits are at least potentially helpful. Some form of stun/disarm resistance or immunity would be very welcome, especially seeing as how every class has at least one skill like that, except the Warden.
Another area I would like to link my idea thread lol. The only need for additional threat dumps, threat leaches, etc. would be in a few raid fights. I don't think we as a class need them, but for those fights and because guardians (and even champs) have a noticeable advantage there, we need one to stay competitive imo.
As for snap aggro, a snap aggro javelin attack would be nice. Make it so JoDF does extra threat and problem solved imo. For single-3 targets we have no issue anyway, but for major multi-mob pulls we start having trouble if the DPS is over enthusiastic.
And I'm infinitely curious to see Orion's idea for Combat State immunity/resistance. I PM'd him to see what he had to say and to tell him to sleep more and he told me the next warden changes blog would be out sometime next week-ish... I hate waiting...
Ghost Bear see problem. Nice peoples looking at Horse mouth. Ghost bear look at Horse belly. Horse make good snack!
Your granddaughter is off gallivanting with a questionable crowd of wardens on another server, but it's probably just a phase. I'm still chilling on failfoot; when people see the title Son of Clieby it's easier to get a spot in raids lol.
Ghost Bear see problem. Nice peoples looking at Horse mouth. Ghost bear look at Horse belly. Horse make good snack!
And I'm infinitely curious to see Orion's idea for Combat State immunity/resistance. I PM'd him to see what he had to say and to tell him to sleep more and he told me the next warden changes blog would be out sometime next week-ish... I hate waiting...
This is great news. Can't wait to see what he is thinking.
I agree with you to a point, but this will also give us more survivability over-all I think. With this change you can put your HoT's up, and then instead of spending your time refreshing them you can buff, taunt, DPS, etc.
I don't think so. This will actually reduce our survivability, but increase our flexibility. With masteries, it's possible to keep Shield Mastery, Wall of Steel, Conviction, Restoration, Safeguard and Persevere up consistently. There's not much you can do beyond that to increase survivability. So, trading away 10% heals, we maybe get back enough time to add Shield Strike and Dance of War for extra partials, or perhaps an Exultation of Battle (which isn't horrible, but not really worthwhile in single-target fights). Additionally, the loss of the 10% healing is upfront, while the extra flexibility only comes at the end of the rotation. This is most concerning in high-damage fights. Basically, this reduces our survivability in raid scenarios.
If you want this changed rather than damaging our spear-line threat I would rather just see a reduced threat effect applied to Recklessness similarly to what Hunters have on Endurance.
This is a better idea, but still not something I'd endorse. Like you, Reg, I don't care if I pull aggro - I'm a tank. Even in spear line, I'm still a tank. So either deal with your "aggro-problem" through tactics or just suck it up. Champs have an aggro dump b/c when they run in dps-mode they are extremely squishy. Wardens are not.
Another area I would like to link my idea thread lol. The only need for additional threat dumps, threat leaches, etc. would be in a few raid fights. I don't think we as a class need them, but for those fights and because guardians (and even champs) have a noticeable advantage there, we need one to stay competitive imo.
Guards don't have a threat dump, and we've got more threat leeches than either Guards or Champs. I think you mean snap-aggro skills here. I don't think we need a general snap-aggro skill, but I do think some form of aggro-recovery after death would be fair. If we get a snap-aggro skill in place of an aggro-recovery skill simply because that's the easier way to design it, then fine.
For single-3 targets we have no issue anyway, but for major multi-mob pulls we start having trouble if the DPS is over enthusiastic.
I find this (very common) sentiment troublesome, because Wardens have the potential to generate more AoE threat than any other class in the game. I personally have no problem with AoE aggro, even with enthusiastic DPS. If I did have a problem, my first reaction would be to load up on more Convictions. My second reaction would be to ask other classes to either give me a 3-second head start or make sure to use their aggro-assist skills. My last reaction would be to pick up the threat legacies on my LIs. Add a potential snap-aggro gambit into the mix, and asking for more threat tools seems plain unnecessary (and plain greedy) to me.
And I'm infinitely curious to see Orion's idea for Combat State immunity/resistance. I PM'd him to see what he had to say and to tell him to sleep more and he told me the next warden changes blog would be out sometime next week-ish... I hate waiting...
Heh, I don't mind waiting. I'd prefer Orion and the rest of the devs take their time and make sure they create a quality revamp rather than rushing out a sub-par mishmash of changes. This is the first time the Warden class has really gotten any kind of serious re-examination, and I want it to be the best it can be.
I don't think so. This will actually reduce our survivability, but increase our flexibility. With masteries, it's possible to keep Shield Mastery, Wall of Steel, Conviction, Restoration, Safeguard and Persevere up consistently. There's not much you can do beyond that to increase survivability. So, trading away 10% heals, we maybe get back enough time to add Shield Strike and Dance of War for extra partials, or perhaps an Exultation of Battle (which isn't horrible, but not really worthwhile in single-target fights). Additionally, the loss of the 10% healing is upfront, while the extra flexibility only comes at the end of the rotation. This is most concerning in high-damage fights. Basically, this reduces our survivability in raid scenarios.
I have always seen warden heals not as true healing, but as a wardens method of damage mitigation. For example, get hit for 500 morale, then a heal ticks for 180, and you've only taken net damage of 320. The warden heals should be going constantly to negate damage, they should not be stacked after taking a critical hit to try and thus out-heal the damage done. With the proposed changes we could have our "mitigation" going throughout a fight without having to cycle through our defensive buffs and HoT's exclusively.
Now if you are able to keep both of your buffs and most of your HoT's going 24/7 in a raid, you have a stellar group. When I raid I find that the DPS is going too hot and heavy for me to do nothing but keep heals up. I always have my buffs and Conviction up, once I have a solid aggro lead and if nothing crazy is going on I can work restoration and usually persevere in there, beyond that is wishful thinking.
Beyond that though I consider this change a buff to our HoT's. They are 10% weaker but that's more than made up for with the 2 extra pulses.
Also, I am mostly talking about raids with all of this. 6-mans we are fine in and I could care less about solo at this point.
Originally Posted by Colred
Guards don't have a threat dump, and we've got more threat leeches than either Guards or Champs. I think you mean snap-aggro skills here. I don't think we need a general snap-aggro skill, but I do think some form of aggro-recovery after death would be fair. If we get a snap-aggro skill in place of an aggro-recovery skill simply because that's the easier way to design it, then fine.
Guardians don't need a threat dump. They can adjust their perceived threat levels for these fights by just hopping in and out of Threat Stance. Also, we may have more threat leaches but champions have the most powerful threat leach of all: Rising Ire. A champ can go from 0 on the threat list to the top by using this skill in a minute tops.
I didn't mean to say we needed a threat dump, I think what we need is something that just allows us to pass aggro back and forth on those few raid battles where that is an active dynamic. Champions with Rising and Ebbing Ire, and the guardian skills (which I can't for the life of me remember the name of) have tools which help them with this as well. Granted, these aren't absolutely needed but passing aggro without these tools is something which maybe only the top 10% of wardens can do, which is one of the reasons players tend to be leery of bringing us into certain raids and battles.
For the purpose of those few raid fights were aggro swapping is needed, either a small threat dump, threat leach (percentage leach I mean btw), or a lengthy Force Taunt (which isn't very warden-y imo) would be helpful here.
Also, explain to me what you mean by snap-aggro. To me this means either a potent force taunt or a skill with a high "burst" of threat to it. As i said before, attach a high threat element to JoDF to give us a little more security in multi-mob pulls so that we don't have to ask our group to wait before they join the fight. Guardians have a force-taunt equivalent to this, most of them start pulls with a 10 second force taunt that allows them to build a large threat lead before anyone else gets a chance to get aggro (unless your me and use DC right at the beginning of the pull to pull off of them, take THAT noobs!!! Ahem, sorry...).
Originally Posted by Colred
I find this (very common) sentiment troublesome, because Wardens have the potential to generate more AoE threat than any other class in the game. I personally have no problem with AoE aggro, even with enthusiastic DPS. If I did have a problem, my first reaction would be to load up on more Convictions. My second reaction would be to ask other classes to either give me a 3-second head start or make sure to use their aggro-assist skills. My last reaction would be to pick up the threat legacies on my LIs. Add a potential snap-aggro gambit into the mix, and asking for more threat tools seems plain unnecessary (and plain greedy) to me.
No, champions have the best AOE threat in the game. If the fervor champ decides you don't get aggro, you don't get it. In a battle of AOE tanks I will place my money on the warden over the guardian, but champions win in the event of more than 3 targets.
Details aside though, my point was just that I don't like having to ask my group to wait a few second before the fighting starts. Put a threat component on JoDF or give us a gambit with a lot of front-loaded threat so we can get a powerful early lead and then tank normally.
I don't want to see increased warden threat over all though. I think there should be some measure of skill in being a DPS, and not pulling aggro should be part of that. Hunters, RK's, and Champs do and should generate more ST and AOE (for champs at least) aggro than even the best tank, that's as it should be. If the DPS could just go all out and the tank could easily stay above them, imo, tanks would be OP.
Ghost Bear see problem. Nice peoples looking at Horse mouth. Ghost bear look at Horse belly. Horse make good snack!
Heh, I don't mind waiting. I'd prefer Orion and the rest of the devs take their time and make sure they create a quality revamp rather than rushing out a sub-par mishmash of changes. This is the first time the Warden class has really gotten any kind of serious re-examination, and I want it to be the best it can be.
actually it won't be "the best it can be" either way b/c orion already said fist-line revamp is off the table. Unpredictable fears that move mobs out of range=major problem imo.
actually it won't be "the best it can be" either way b/c orion already said fist-line revamp is off the table. Unpredictable fears that move mobs out of range=major problem imo.
I think fist has enough no-fear adding traits to work around them, but if the only way to get 4-set bonus is with fear traits fist may remain off the table, a fear inducing War-cry is exactly opposite of what I want.
Where now is the lolcat and the derailer? Where is the troll that was trolling?
Where is the URL and the youtube, and the snappy retort flowing?
Where is the hand on the keyboard, and the LCD screen glowing?
They have passed like rain on the thread, like a wind in the post;
The days have gone down in the forums behind the cookys into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the nubs not searching,
Or behold the flowing derails from the Sea returning?
Beyond that though I consider this change a buff to our HoT's. They are 10% weaker but that's more than made up for with the 2 extra pulses.
The 2 pulses do not make up for the loss of the 10%, and that's my point. Wait...what? We have 7 pulses now, so adding 2 pulses increases our heals by roughly 29%. How does that not make up for a 10% loss to heal magnitude, Colred?
Well, I'm happy you asked. ;D
Think of it this way - what if the devs decided to give us another 11 pulses to round it up to an even 20? But then they dropped the magnitude of each pulse by 25%? Well, that's an increase of 122%, and since each pulse only got 25% smaller, we're left with more overall healing. Okay, now do it again - give the warden another 30 pulses to take it up to 50, but drop the magnitude by another 25%. Okay, we still get more healing overall since 30 extra pulses are more healing than is lost by a 25% reduction. Keep going in this manner until you hit an infinite number of pulses, each of which is very minor, and you get....ICMR.
Since there's a maximum number of healing gambits, there's a maximum rate of healing that can be reached. This rate cannot be increased by more pulses. Rate of healing is actually more important to survival, especially in boss fights, than is total volume of healing (up to a point). In other words, 10% faster healing is more likely to save your life than 10% more HoT pulses. If you could get 100% of the healing from Restoration in 1 big pulse, it would be much more likely to keep you alive than it is now.
The extra pulses free up time at the end of their healing duration, but they don't increase our survivability. Take that 10% away, and we just get squishier.
Guardians don't need a threat dump. They can adjust their perceived threat levels for these fights by just hopping in and out of Threat Stance.
Good point. Assuming your Guardian runs threat stance, he/she can swap in and out kind of like a threat dump. In fact, this is the mechanic we use to swap aggro between Wardens and Guards in our raid group.
Also, we may have more threat leaches but champions have the most powerful threat leach of all: Rising Ire. A champ can go from 0 on the threat list to the top by using this skill in a minute tops.
Eh, not really. First of all, Rising Ire's on a medium-length cooldown (20 seconds I believe). Conviction can be spammed every 4-5 seconds. Rising Ire leeches from one target. Conviction hits up to 5. Rising Ire is percentage based, which makes it very powerful at first, but weaker with repeated usage. Conviction leeches a set amount which makes every use equally effective. Rising Ire is a great threat management tool - more precise than Conviction, for sure - but it's not superior to Conviction in full Fellowship or raid situations.
Also, explain to me what you mean by snap-aggro. To me this means either a potent force taunt or a skill with a high "burst" of threat to it.
Basically, yes. Click a button and have aggro. May have a threat component or not.
No, champions have the best AOE threat in the game. If the fervor champ decides you don't get aggro, you don't get it. In a battle of AOE tanks I will place my money on the warden over the guardian, but champions win in the event of more than 3 targets.
No, champions do not have the best AoE threat in the game - they have the best AoE dps in the game. This usually translates into the most threat in the first 10 seconds or so. No Champ will out-threat you past the 10-15 second mark unless they are also rising ire off of you. Now, those first 10-15 seconds can be crucial, especially as many AoE mobs don't last past 15 seconds in a lot of cases, so it may seem like you're being out generated. But in the long run, Wardens win the AoE threat battle. Again, I feel it necessary to repeat - if any Warden is losing threat to champs, stop with the EoBs and WCs and start spamming more Convictions. It produces a lot more threat WAY faster.
Details aside though, my point was just that I don't like having to ask my group to wait a few second before the fighting starts.
I'm sorry to hear that. I love it. I love the challenge of not instantly having aggro. It makes tanking much more fun for me. It gives more reason to improve teamwork. It makes the game interesting. If I've got an automatic lock-down on aggro from the word "go," and I really have no chance of losing it, and no significant chance of dying...where's the excitement in that? And not just for me - but for everyone else?
I don't want to see increased warden threat over all though. I think there should be some measure of skill in being a DPS, and not pulling aggro should be part of that. Hunters, RK's, and Champs do and should generate more ST and AOE (for champs at least) aggro than even the best tank, that's as it should be. If the DPS could just go all out and the tank could easily stay above them, imo, tanks would be OP.
THIS. This is where we almost agree. It's not that tanks shouldn't be able to produce more threat than anyone else, but that it shouldn't be easy to do so, and should require good teamwork to ensure. Wardens actually can produce more ST and AoE threat than any dps class, but not easily, and not instantly. In addition, with the variations in gear, traits, and weapons, your dps may simply be more powerful than your tank, even if that tank plays optimally. That's why threat drops exist. Because, ultimately, every class needs to contribute to every job - tanking, healing, dps, and CC.
actually it won't be "the best it can be" either way b/c orion already said fist-line revamp is off the table. Unpredictable fears that move mobs out of range=major problem imo.
You're confusing the meaning of my statement. I'm not asking for the best possible update that could ever be created under the laws that govern our universe. I'm simply asking for it to be the best the devs can reasonably make it, given the constraints of time, money, technology, intent, and ingenuity. If spending an extra few weeks on something increases the viability of the update, I'm happy to wait. In fact, I'd prefer it.
I don't want to start another thread for this, so I'll ask here and hope you're reading this Orion.
I saw that Minstrels are getting their legacies are being changed, at least some of them. what are the odds that Warden legacies will get a touch up aswell? I mean, almost all of our legacies are skill specific, would it be possible to make them set to gambit lines? so PA damage would affect MB and US aswell. I think this is good change and not out of place in the game, most (if not all) other classes have sweeping legacies like Guardian's threat up and Hunter Focus and Induction damage increase.
so new legacies would be:
fist gambit threat up (affecting only gambits that have a threat component)
Power Attack line, damage up
fist DoT, damage up (not affecting EoB and the like)
healing +%
The Boot line, damage up
and so forth.
Where now is the lolcat and the derailer? Where is the troll that was trolling?
Where is the URL and the youtube, and the snappy retort flowing?
Where is the hand on the keyboard, and the LCD screen glowing?
They have passed like rain on the thread, like a wind in the post;
The days have gone down in the forums behind the cookys into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the nubs not searching,
Or behold the flowing derails from the Sea returning?
Eh, not really. First of all, Rising Ire's on a medium-length cooldown (20 seconds I believe). Conviction can be spammed every 4-5 seconds. Rising Ire leeches from one target. Conviction hits up to 5. Rising Ire is percentage based, which makes it very powerful at first, but weaker with repeated usage. Conviction leeches a set amount which makes every use equally effective. Rising Ire is a great threat management tool - more precise than Conviction, for sure - but it's not superior to Conviction in full Fellowship or raid situations.
That's just not true. If a Champ wants to deny you aggro, there is realistically nothing you can do about it. Spam PBs or Conviction? That's just more threat that he'll be able to pull from you next time, and thus a larger gap, which means you need to spam more PBs/Conviction each time he steals from you, to close the gap. We build threat linearly - barring ToT crits, each Conviction or PB or what have you does the same amount of aggro - but he steals threat proportionately, so every time we build threat, it only makes his next Rising more effective, and means that the number of Conviction-sized chunks of threat between you and him is larger than it was the last time he stole aggro from you. Oh, and he's still fully capable of shing-shing'ing during the downtime. Champs have a legacy that can get Rising down to a 10s cooldown, making the point at which you cannot spam raw aggro fast enough to catch him arrive sooner.
Quick, and obviously fake, numbers example: in t amount of time, you build 100 aggro, he builds 80. He Rising's, and you're now at 80 and he's at 100. The gap is 20. t amount of time passes, and you are both at 180 again. He steals again. You're down to 144, he's up to 216. The gap is now 72. t amount of time passes, he's now at 296, and you're at 244. He steals again, and you drop to 195, and he's now well over 340. The gap is now nearly 150. I could go on, but I think you see the point - the more aggro you build, the larger the gap every time he uses Rising. Very quickly it will reach a point where you cannot hope to build enough aggro in the cooldown period.
The 2 pulses do not make up for the loss of the 10%, and that's my point. Wait...what? We have 7 pulses now, so adding 2 pulses increases our heals by roughly 29%. How does that not make up for a 10% loss to heal magnitude, Colred?
Well, I'm happy you asked. ;D
Wait I did? I don't remem-
Originally Posted by Colred
Think of it this way - what if the devs decided to give us another 11 pulses to round it up to an even 20? But then they dropped the magnitude of each pulse by 25%? Well, that's an increase of 122%, and since each pulse only got 25% smaller, we're left with more overall healing. Okay, now do it again - give the warden another 30 pulses to take it up to 50, but drop the magnitude by another 25%. Okay, we still get more healing overall since 30 extra pulses are more healing than is lost by a 25% reduction. Keep going in this manner until you hit an infinite number of pulses, each of which is very minor, and you get....ICMR.
Since there's a maximum number of healing gambits, there's a maximum rate of healing that can be reached. This rate cannot be increased by more pulses. Rate of healing is actually more important to survival, especially in boss fights, than is total volume of healing (up to a point). In other words, 10% faster healing is more likely to save your life than 10% more HoT pulses. If you could get 100% of the healing from Restoration in 1 big pulse, it would be much more likely to keep you alive than it is now.
The extra pulses free up time at the end of their healing duration, but they don't increase our survivability. Take that 10% away, and we just get squishier.
I see your point, but the difference in our opinion on this matter comes from the fact that unlike you I can't keep all my HoT's active in a raid, the DPS and dynamics of the fight just don't allow me too. With this change HoT's will be more "set it and leave it" in nature, meaning I for one will be able to keep all of my HoT's up more regularly instead of now where I always have one and maybe 2-3 at the end of a fight. Now, I agree that there is a point where you can have too many pulses for too little of a return, but I think adding +2 pulses in exchange for just 10% doesn't seem like a bad trade-off.
Plus now that Determination will have ICPR and crit defense to it, and a legacied Determination is slightly more powerful than a Persevere, it all balances out in the net gain imo. We are also probably getting some utility gambits that will grant crit defense and other defenses in addition to just our current BPE, with HoT's not being so high maintenance we will be able to keep our old buffs and these new buffs all working in our new rotations.
Originally Posted by Colred
Eh, not really. First of all, Rising Ire's on a medium-length cooldown (20 seconds I believe). Conviction can be spammed every 4-5 seconds. Rising Ire leeches from one target. Conviction hits up to 5. Rising Ire is percentage based, which makes it very powerful at first, but weaker with repeated usage. Conviction leeches a set amount which makes every use equally effective. Rising Ire is a great threat management tool - more precise than Conviction, for sure - but it's not superior to Conviction in full Fellowship or raid situations.
For general tanking I agree, Conviction is superior. However I was speaking specifically about those few raid fights where you need to swap aggro, in which case Rising/Ebbing Ire is superior. Being able to remove and/or drop aggro bombs makes those fights very easy if you have two champs cooperating. Conviction, even though it does hit multiple targets and generate super sexy threat, isn't of as much help in these types of fights because it isn't a controlled percentage leach. It doesn't matter what anyone else's threat level is in this fight, it only matters what yours and the other tanks threat levels are. Being able to leach and drop even 10% would make a noticeable difference in these fights.
Originally Posted by Colred
I'm sorry to hear that. I love it. I love the challenge of not instantly having aggro. It makes tanking much more fun for me. It gives more reason to improve teamwork. It makes the game interesting. If I've got an automatic lock-down on aggro from the word "go," and I really have no chance of losing it, and no significant chance of dying...where's the excitement in that? And not just for me - but for everyone else?
Oh I agree, I love warden tanking more than anything else in the game. I just want something to cover those first 5 or so seconds of a pull, not as an easy mode button but as a tool for the group. If the LM opens with lightning and crits everything for 3k, or the champ decides to open and use Raging Blades every 10 seconds, things tend to go to hell for the first ~20 seconds and by the time I get aggro back, stuff is dead and I was useless to the group.
I guess what I want is a tool to deal with situations where the group is stupid, not an ez-mode button.
Originally Posted by Colred
THIS. This is where we almost agree.
OMG! someone grab a screenshot! lol
Edit: Ok, I went to the bathroom, came back, and my ferrets were on my desk drinking my coffee. Now, a few minutes later, I think I may be the first person to have discovered Perpetual Energy. I must copyright this and find a way to harvest these ferrets.
Last edited by Regero; Jun 04 2011 at 12:56 PM.
Ghost Bear see problem. Nice peoples looking at Horse mouth. Ghost bear look at Horse belly. Horse make good snack!
That's just not true. If a Champ wants to deny you aggro, there is realistically nothing you can do about it.
Interesting point, but why would my Champ want to deny me aggro again? The debate is about best overall AoE threat generation, not if one skill could inhibit the threat generation of another specific toon.
I will say again, the combination of Rising Ire and Ebbing Ire comprises an excellent threat-management tool, and I think a lot of raid groups don't utilize Rising Ire nearly enough. That doesn't mean Champs generate more AoE threat or that their AoE threat generation is more useful.
The fact that Rising Ire is so precise is both a strength and a weakness. The biggest threat concerns for any tank tend to be the 2 or 3 highest DPS hitters in the group, along with the healer. While Rising Ire is basically a one-button aggro save on any one of those players, Conviction does a much more efficient job of maintaining a positive threat spread for the tank on all players in group simultaneously. In addition, Conviction is non-targeted and has a 30m range and is 100% effective on all players AND all mobs. This is a much more reliable way to build AoE threat quickly.
The fact that Rising Ire is percentage based is also both a strength and a weakness. Early on, when total threat is relatively low and threat production is most important, Rising Ire will simply leech much less threat than Conviction. Late in a fight, Rising Ire becomes much more powerful, though repeated usage on the same target will dilute this effect.
Let's think about this in terms of tanking. Fervour champs generate a ton of dps threat, but they generally aren't tanking. If you want to claim that a Fervour champ in your group could out-AoE-threat your Warden by leeching all the AoE threat you produced, I'd agree. In most cases, he'd die pretty quickly if he did, and I'd laugh about it. But that's not really the debate. Are you familiar with VORP (value over replacement player)? The idea is simple: if you have two options for the same job, which one generates more value? So, the real question is - which class is better than the other in the same role?
Let's say your fellowship is Tank, Fervour Champ, Hunter, LM, Captain, Healer. Tank can be Warden or a Glory Champ.
For maximum AoE threat, let's say that your F-Champ and LM open with AoEs and your Captain and Healer drop some quick group heals. In the first 3 seconds, your Tank generates no AoE threat, your Champ and LM generate 1000 AoE threat on each mob, your Healer and your Cappy generate 500 healing threat each, and we'll ignore the Hunter who is currently focus-firing on the Tank's target (good Hunter!). These numbers are a decent enough approximation of an HoC run to illustrate a point.
For Maximum AoE effect, the G-Champ would always Rise Ire off of either the F-Champ or LM. So, at 3 seconds the G-Champ leeches 15%, or 150 threat from the F-Champ. At the same time, the Warden would pop his first Conviction, leeching 165 threat from each toon (excluding the Hunter) for a total of 660 threat. So, very early in a fight, Conviction out-generates Rising Ire by more than 4-to-1. The next Rising Ire would be available at 13 seconds (at the earliest). If we assume 5 seconds per Conviction, that would coincide with the 3rd Conviction. Let's additionally assume a constant rate of threat (1k AoE dps per 3 seconds, and 500 healing threat per 3 seconds).
At 13 seconds, Conviction has leeched 1980 AoE threat from your 4 AoE producers. Rising Ire has leeched approx 800 AoE threat - 150 from the F-Champ, then 650 or so from the LM on the second leech.
At 23 seconds, Conviction has leeched 3300 AoE threat from your 4 AoE producers. Rising Ire has leeched approx 1925 AoE threat - 150 from F-Champ, then 650 from LM, then 1125 from F-Champ again.
At 33 seconds, Conviction has leeched 4620 AoE threat. Rising Ire has leeched 3475 AoE threat - 150, then 650, then 1125, then 1550 from your LM again.
At 43 seconds, Conviction has leeched 5940 AoE threat. Rising Ire has leeched 5480 AoE threat - 2005 on the latest F-Champ leech.
At 53 seconds, Conviction has leeched 7260 AoE threat. Rising Ire has leeched 7955 AoE threat - 2475 on the latest LM leech.
In this scenario, it takes 53 seconds for Rising Ire to out-generate Conviction in AoE threat. Of course, there are a lot of other factors to consider. Both tanks would be producing other AoE and single-target threat. Everyone else would also be producing threat at differing rates per mob. Conviction is generating additional healing threat. Rising Ire takes less time to execute than Conviction, but there might be lag time for the G-Champ to swap targets before using it. More AoE threat-producers favors Conviction; few AoE threat-producers favors Rising Ire. In wave fights (like Gorothul), the AoE mobs wave in at different times, making quicker reaction speed and threat generation critical. In set multi-mob pulls (like HoC), most mobs die pretty fast. In high-morale multi-mob pulls (like in OD), your group is probably using CC skills, making AoE dps nearly impossible.
Here's a scenario to consider: F-Champ chain crits right off the bat and pulls a bunch of aggro. The Healer starts spam-healing the F-Champ. G-Champ uses Rising Ire on F-Champ. Unfortunately, this only raises G-Champ to 2nd on the threat list, but knocks F-Champ down to 3rd. New threat leader is the healer, and G-Champ has to wait 9 more seconds before Rising Ire is available again. Bad news for the healer and the group. The Champs could have saved the group had F-Champ ebbed onto G-Champ and G-Champ rose off of the Healer instead, but that's some advanced teamwork that needs to be worked out, and also requires Ebb to be off cooldown.
Same scenario with a Warden: F-Champ chain crits right off the bat and pulls a bunch of aggro. The Healer starts spam-healing the F-Champ. The Warden pops a Conviction. Let's say the aggro sticks on the F-Champ, but the Warden has closed the threat gap on the F-Champ considerably and put a check on the Healer's aggro. In addition, the Conviction healing helps keep the F-Champ alive with less additional healing (and healing threat) from the healer. The Warden pops another Conviction a few second later, and all the aggro swaps to him. The Healer is never threatened and no one has to make any difficult adjustments to save the group.
Basically, Conviction is superior to Rising Ire in the vast majority of scenarios. However, for pure threat generation, Rising Ire will win out over the long haul due to it's percentage based leech.
Originally Posted by Regero
I see your point, but the difference in our opinion on this matter comes from the fact that unlike you I can't keep all my HoT's active in a raid, the DPS and dynamics of the fight just don't allow me too. With this change HoT's will be more "set it and leave it" in nature, meaning I for one will be able to keep all of my HoT's up more regularly instead of now where I always have one and maybe 2-3 at the end of a fight. Now, I agree that there is a point where you can have too many pulses for too little of a return, but I think adding +2 pulses in exchange for just 10% doesn't seem like a bad trade-off.
Well, the fact is that the 10% drop in healing decreases the survivability of the class. The opinion is whether or not the increased flexibility granted by 6 seconds of additional pulses will increase any individual Warden's overall success rate. Our personal abilities to do the job of tanking while also self-healing is not a concern for the class, though it is (of course) of critical importance to us and our groups. What I mean is this - you think "adding +2 pulses in exchange for just 10% doesn't seem like a bad trade-off" for you, because right now you believe it will help you in more scenarios than it will hurt you. However, the first time you get into a scenario in which you need to spam heal yourself for all you're worth in order to stay alive, you'll despair of that 10%, and curse your useless extra pulses. I'm already despairing of that potential loss because I know that those extra pulses will almost never save me, while that 10% will with some frequency.
Plus now that Determination will have ICPR and crit defense to it, and a legacied Determination is slightly more powerful than a Persevere, it all balances out in the net gain imo. We are also probably getting some utility gambits that will grant crit defense and other defenses in addition to just our current BPE, with HoT's not being so high maintenance we will be able to keep our old buffs and these new buffs all working in our new rotations.
These are other issues. We don't know how the new Recklessness will stack up against the current Conservation, or which stance we may use in which types of fights. Besides, it IS possible to keep all your HoTs and buffs up simultaneously. With new buffs being introduced, extra pulses will make our HoTs less "high maintenance" as you call it, so we'll be able to keep more buffs up while cycling HoTs, but that also doesn't necessarily make the trade worth it. In fact, fewer pulses of larger magnitude would still be better. Then you wouldn't have to worry about keeping your HoTs pulsing all the time either - just pop them when needed. That would also increase their spammability as well, all without lowering your survivability at all.
It is logically incongruous to claim that Wardens need help to counter the threat of spike damage on the one hand and on the other hand claim that a reduction in spike healing is beneficial.
Master of the Spear/Shield/Fist-- Instead of providing the 6 current masteries, these skills will now apply a "Double Builder" Mastery. Master of the Spear for example will put a spear-spear into your gambit bar.
Ouch? So we can only have our masteries while having Way of the Warden active? Can't see why I would ever need to build a Double mastery..
Master of the Spear/Shield/Fist-- Instead of providing the 6 current masteries, these skills will now apply a "Double Builder" Mastery. Master of the Spear for example will put a spear-spear into your gambit bar.
Ouch? So we can only have our masteries while having Way of the Warden active? Can't see why I would ever need to build a Double mastery..
WotW doesn't need to be active, it just needs to be traited in order for masteries to be used.
Well, the fact is that the 10% drop in healing decreases the survivability of the class. The opinion is whether or not the increased flexibility granted by 6 seconds of additional pulses will increase any individual Warden's overall success rate. Our personal abilities to do the job of tanking while also self-healing is not a concern for the class, though it is (of course) of critical importance to us and our groups. What I mean is this - you think "adding +2 pulses in exchange for just 10% doesn't seem like a bad trade-off" for you, because right now you believe it will help you in more scenarios than it will hurt you. However, the first time you get into a scenario in which you need to spam heal yourself for all you're worth in order to stay alive, you'll despair of that 10%, and curse your useless extra pulses. I'm already despairing of that potential loss because I know that those extra pulses will almost never save me, while that 10% will with some frequency.
These are other issues. We don't know how the new Recklessness will stack up against the current Conservation, or which stance we may use in which types of fights. Besides, it IS possible to keep all your HoTs and buffs up simultaneously. With new buffs being introduced, extra pulses will make our HoTs less "high maintenance" as you call it, so we'll be able to keep more buffs up while cycling HoTs, but that also doesn't necessarily make the trade worth it. In fact, fewer pulses of larger magnitude would still be better. Then you wouldn't have to worry about keeping your HoTs pulsing all the time either - just pop them when needed. That would also increase their spammability as well, all without lowering your survivability at all.
In any scenario, that 10% loss to your HoT's won't be the deciding factor in whether you live or die because frankly, your not losing that much.
Here are what your hots hit for now, and what they would hit for then assuming incoming healing of 20%:
Conviction ------------193
Restoration ----------187
Celebration of Skill---162
Safeguard-------------142
Persevere-------------91
Morale returned total:775
Now reduce those by 10% and:
Conviction ------------174
Restoration ----------168
Celebration of Skill---146
Safeguard-------------129
Persevere-------------82
Morale returned total and: 698
Basically, you lose 77.5 morale from your "burst" healing. I don't know how you raid, but I have never yet found myself cursing "OH! If only I had an extra 80 morale, that would have stopped Durchest from crushing me with a 6k crit!". I also don't count on my HoT's to save me in these circumstances, if I've been critted for 6k it's the healers job to be on their toes and react.
Also, despite losing 78 morale from your "burst" heals, assuming your in Determination, which will be much better after the update, you will in fact gain this back, or gain about an extra 15 morale if you have the legacy. Your "burst" heals don't change significantly, plus we will be gaining increased crit defense making the times when we need to stack heals in the first place less likely and will be taking less damage total.
Also I've said it before, indeed about 2 posts ago, but wardens HoT's do NOT heal. Mini's heal; they are the ones who look at your morale bar and say "Oh jeez, I should bring that up." Wardens look at their morale bar and say "that's dropping too fast, better slow it down." A warden shouldn't take a nasty crit and be at 2k morale before they start panicking and get their heals going, they should have been going well before the crit even happened. With the new system, keeping your HoT's going will be easier and will also allow you time to cycle in the new crit defense, tactical defense, and CC-immunity state gambits into your rotation in addition to what we do now.
I understand your point, and only time will tell if this is a good pay-off or a nerf, but as far as I can tell it's a buff and I'm still happy with it.
Ghost Bear see problem. Nice peoples looking at Horse mouth. Ghost bear look at Horse belly. Horse make good snack!
One thing I would really like to see Wardens get is an anti-slow.
After seeing all the slows creeps are getting now being the only melee class without some ability to ignore a slow, even temporarily, is going to hurt in the moors.
Just my 2 cents.
Ghost Bear see problem. Nice peoples looking at Horse mouth. Ghost bear look at Horse belly. Horse make good snack!
I am less than happy about the changes to Way of the Warden. I have absolutely no desire to go through the epic quest process to get this trait. It seems like I will have to now. This change takes away the abilities that I have grown used to and requires a lot of work to get them back. I do not really have a lot of play time, and this feels like it will be a huge waste of what I do have.
I have more or less stopped playing LotRO, but just stopped by to see what was new...and, wow, they have really, totally, completely botched this.
Requiring WotW traited to have "normal" masteries is a huge, Huge, HUGE mistake. Because our non-legendary class traits are not very good, investing the three slots for masteries currently does not really cost us very much. If they make this change, and I want to tank in something resembling the way I do now, it means I have to give up:
1) A legendary capstone, or
2) My only force taunt, or
3) My multi-target pulling skill (JoDF)
However you slice it, I am losing some very important capability just to keep what I have now.
Moreover, the "double mastery" replacements for the current mastery traits are utterly useless. Utterly. Useless.
In literally years of extended and usually thoughtful discussion here, we have been asking for relatively modest changes to bring the class on par for tanking, and incrementally improve quality of life.
And instead they decide to give us this...random mess.
I go down the list and after every point I find myself asking..."What were they thinking when they came up with *this* awful idea?"
We're not getting buffed. It's more like we're getting scrambled.
In the immortal words of Celandine Brandybuck: "It's terrible, just terrible!"
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Cecthrantir - Warden R9 / Cecsantar - Burglar R6 / Celdoniel - Minstrel R6 / Ciasko - Captain R4 / Susenka - Loremaster
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Originally Posted by striverg
These? already in there homes
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Re: Compilation of changes to the Warden.
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So we can only have our masteries while having Way of the Warden active? Can't see why I would ever need to build a Double mastery.. 
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