The fact that you all think that wargs sniping squishies with such efficiency on Laurelin is an accident, it is not so on every server....
Freeps fail because they don't work together, not on a macro level and not on a micro level, not really. Creeps needed to learn to work together early and even now lowranks are so weak they need to bundle forces. It is not something that is commanded by the raid leader or imposed by the top tribe or an alliance, it is an instinctive thing, just there under the surface.
And with every step towards balance this advantage grows more prevalent.
For 5 years now I have seen freeps completely miss the point when it comes to Lotro PvP.
I do think Wargs are greatly un-balanced from my limited PvP experience from a macro perspective, but I agree with you that there is not much cooperation on the Freep side. In fact, I was going to write a wall-of-text post on this topic and other salient aspects of LOTRO PvP, but I am too lazy.
Originally Posted by Thoronthor
Only 2 freep groups have ever gotten it right... Hispanea, because they could/can work as a true team.
I sure hope so, because they certainly can't work with others.
I do think Wargs are greatly un-balanced from my limited PvP experience from a macro perspective, but I agree with you that there is not much cooperation on the Freep side. In fact, I was going to write a wall-of-text post on this topic and other salient aspects of LOTRO PvP, but I am too lazy.
If wargs were "greatly unbalanced" they could solo everything with ease. Saying they are unbalanced because there are so many of them is saying that a football match should stop after one red card. It's not the warg's fault that the other creep classes are &&&&, especially at the lower ranks. The class itself is as balanced as it has ever been. Most freep classes I fight I can beat a bad player but not a good player, some freep classes are not beatable and others are too easy.
Let us please separate the discussion about there being too many wargs from the discussion of the class being balanced. The class IS balanced, the moors however is not.
Originally Posted by Miretocot
I sure hope so, because they certainly can't work with others.
They can on creep side, and that is pretty much my point in a nutshell.
Why is the atmosphere on creepside such that generally isolationists players work together with the rest without much incident yet on freep side these same players completely isolate themselves. I'd consider this food for thought for anyone wanting to improve freep side on Laurelin.
Let us please separate the discussion about there being too many wargs from the discussion of the class being balanced. The class IS balanced, the moors however is not.
I think this is what Miretocot meant when he talked about macro perspective. Not the class, but the effect that having overpopulation of this class has on the Moors.
Anyway is what I mean.
Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. (Felathurin aka Brunt)
Tinda is right,the warg class itself is not a prob,its actually ok(cant believe me saying that )over-population is though(think its what Miretocot means also)and its killing ettens action
Tinda is right,the warg class itself is not a prob,its actually ok(cant believe me saying that )over-population is though(think its what Miretocot means also)and its killing ettens action
Nothing is killing ettens action, because I never see a real action in that server...
Sculanet Rank 10 Minstrel Laurelin <---- Corpsejumping noobs since 2009
...the warg class itself is not a prob,its actually ok...over-population is though...and its killing ettens action
Instead of logging off when wargs "kills ettens action" you all freeps better try to make something to gank the gankers, try to turn the tables but seems there's a feel of discouragement to take the lead and at least trying to stop the gankers.
When someone takes the lead and fails, most of members log off, instead of thinking about what was wrong and trying to make things better.True that wargs are wargs nowadays being able to solo 2-3 average freeps.
Just sharing my oppinion, tell me if I'm wrong.
To bad some of us are free to play and we're not allowed to enter Ettens as freeps.
Instead of logging off when wargs "kills ettens action" you all freeps better try to make something to gank the gankers
One of the first things a freep should learn when he comes to the Moors for the first time is that hunting wargs is bad business.
If I lead a PUG group, we will NEVER chase a warg, because it's the easier way to be wiped and eaten by the rest of the pack.
If you want to kill wargs you must do it with a fellow of experienced players with hunters and a LM, and I don't think the effort worth the waste of time.
Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. (Felathurin aka Brunt)
If you want to kill wargs you must do it with a fellow of experienced players with hunters and a LM, and I don't think the effort worth the waste of time.
As we all noticed the amount of wargs is growing from day to day, but I can say that a big part of them are newbies or don't know to play the class properly so they are easy to wipe even if they're grouped (I'm almost sure they'll rage quit if that happens several times).
Now the problem remain the skilled ones which can even get a kill in the middle of raid before dieing/hipsing, so you'd better not mess with them, as you said "don't worth the waste of time" cause they can't be hunted down even with raids (*remembers Connal's raids* *giggles lots*).
I think this is what Miretocot meant when he talked about macro perspective. Not the class, but the effect that having overpopulation of this class has on the Moors.
Anyway is what I mean.
This is primarily what I meant indeed.
But secondarily I do dislike the fact that Wargs get both HiPS and Sprint, which means you can literally always run away in a 1 v. 1 encounter or against a small group of combatants. Burglars can get away too, but it's much harder due to the lack of Sprint.
Instead of logging off when wargs "kills ettens action" you all freeps better try to make something to gank the gankers, try to turn the tables but seems there's a feel of discouragement to take the lead and at least trying to stop the gankers.
Sorry,but it does not take a genius to work out sprint and map as you yourself managed to figure it out
1. Sprint is normally on CD cos we use it to get someone on a 168% horse. Usually, if we're fighting sprinting is not an option. If someone hits us with a quick stun it eradicates it straight away. If I have got a sprint left, loads of freeps attack and sometimes I need to escape. Usually its too late, stun, ritual fire/whatever and I'm toast.
2. HIPs is not really a getout clause, I don't know what other wargs do but I'll HIPs during a fight to get a second stun on the target, so using it to escape ain't really an option. Anyway, If you're hit with a few dots you maybe get 20m before you become visible again.
1. Sprint is normally on CD cos we use it to get someone on a 168% horse. Usually, if we're fighting sprinting is not an option.
But this is because you are one of these few wargs who use sprint as ofensive skill.
I play rarely my warg, but most of the times, due to my lack of aud and good hands, hips+sprint were absolutely essential to scape alive. Hips only and I died for champs AoE or dots took me out of stealth.
Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. (Felathurin aka Brunt)
1. Sprint is normally on CD cos we use it to get someone on a 168% horse.
2. HIPs is not really a getout clause, I don't know what other wargs do but I'll HIPs during a fight to get a second stun on the target, so using it to escape ain't really an option.
I know you use these skills that way, and I reckon Anklebiter does too, which is why I respect you two wargs the most. But I rarely see other wargs use their skills that way (esp HIPS to stun in a fight/spar), maybe Wolfy, but thats it.
But secondarily I do dislike the fact that Wargs get both HiPS and Sprint, which means you can literally always run away in a 1 v. 1 encounter or against a small group of combatants. Burglars can get away too, but it's much harder due to the lack of Sprint.
I often see people commenting upon the warg's 'escape' skills, but they don't work out to be quite as good as some people think. I'll briefly explain:
Sprint - As Gutterat pointed out Sprint can be, and often is, on cooldown because it has been used to chase down a mounted freep, or a Champion, Guardian, etc that is running away. It is also used to kite freeps e.g. as I did last night with yourself when I kited you through your Champion's bubbles until they were gone and I could resume attacking.
Disappear - There are two issues with this skill. The first is that when used for escape it is limited by the fact that it does not negate slows like the Burglar's Improved HiPS skill. It is often the case that when used the warg will be slowed and have DoTs on him so that the warg is then popped out of stealth only a short distance from the enemy who can then keep attacking him, unless of course the warg has Sprint available to use at the same time. The second issue is that Disappear is a dual use skill and transforms into Topple when in Flayer stance. Thus this skill can be on cooldown if Topple has been used as well.
Now none of this is to say that these two skills aren't effective escape skills, they are. However, they aren't quite the automatic get away cards that some people paint them out to be and it is often the case that one or both of these skills will be on cooldown.
I can't speak for all wargs, some may map to Grams and wait for all their cooldowns to reset after each fight, but then that sort of behaviour isn't limited to wargs. I would wager though that most wargs don't bother doing that, instead trying to just keep one of those skills off cooldown, and probably not always having both available at all times.
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Your mighty blow topples Bahmut.
You will now be known as Commander Mestaritonttu the Helpful to those you meet in your travels.
You've earned 175 renown points.
Thank you!
I found Amparo at OST but i didn't have my war speech on, i could have change to kill Amparo and get rank. Then i found Bahmut at OST gate and chased him to Grothum, tough fight but worth it!
1. Sprint is normally on CD cos we use it to get someone on a 168% horse. Usually, if we're fighting sprinting is not an option. If someone hits us with a quick stun it eradicates it straight away. If I have got a sprint left, loads of freeps attack and sometimes I need to escape. Usually its too late, stun, ritual fire/whatever and I'm toast.
2. HIPs is not really a getout clause, I don't know what other wargs do but I'll HIPs during a fight to get a second stun on the target, so using it to escape ain't really an option. Anyway, If you're hit with a few dots you maybe get 20m before you become visible again.
I think the problem with a lot of what you and Grimmclaw posted in response to me is that you are describing tactics used by a limited sub-set of elite Wargs. For instance, while you and Grimmclaw may waste a Sprint CD to knock people off from horse, most Wargs in fact won't even approach you unless you are on foot AND already engaged with something else or think you are AFK. In most 1 v. 1 type of situation (or even in small group fights) with Wargs, they will try their luck and see if they can get a quick kill or two; and if you or your group prove too formidable, they simply disappear/run.
As for Sprint and HiPS not being a "getout clause," that may be true in raids. But in 1 v. 1 it's almost impossible to catch a Warg who wants to flee; and the same often remains true in small group fights as well.
Last edited by Miretocot; Jul 16 2012 at 11:04 PM.
I think the problem with a lot of what you and Grimmclaw posted in response to me is that you are describing tactics used by a limited sub-set of elite Wargs. For instance, while you and Grimmclaw may waste a Sprint CD to knock people off from horse, most Wargs in fact won't even approach you unless you are on foot AND already engaged with something else or think you are AFK. In most 1 v. 1 type of situation (or even in small group fights) with Wargs, they will try their luck and see if they can get a quick kill or two; and if you or your group prove too formidable, they simply disappear/run.
Point well taken. The thing is though that lower ranked wargs are new to the class so they will a) not have the same power level as a high ranked warg and b) be unsure of their limits and how far they can push things. This will lead them into a cautious approach to PvMP i.e. looking for easy kills or fleeing at the first sign of danger.
Now that isn't actually a problem ordinarily, but where it becomes a problem is when there are so many new wargs. So instead of a reasonable number of low ranked wargs engaging in that behaviour as they find their feet so to speak we have a situation, in which there are a terrific number of them all doing that. That leads to frustrating gameplay for freeps (and I might add it also frustrates some of us who think we are getting a solo kill on a freep and half a dozen other wargs jump out! ).
There is really nothing that can be done about this unfortunately, at least until such time as Turbine balances the other creep classes so that they are all as equally attractive to play and we have a more balanced creep class population.
Some will no doubt say that certain warg skills need nerfed, etc, but as Calminayon astutely observed this would be the worst thing to do. Nerfing wargs would only lead to them doing what they have always done when they feel they are at a disadvantage ... join a pack.
At the moment most of the wargs roaming around are actually solo or in very small groups. It may not always appear so to freeps and some may find it incredulous to believe, but all those wargs jumping out of stealth together are in fact often independent of one another and are simply in the vicinity. Now if that is the situation at the moment and many freeps find it frustrating can you imagine how much worse it would be if those wargs were organised in packs and actually coordinating?
As for Sprint and HiPS not being a "getout clause," that may be true in raids. But in 1 v. 1 it's almost impossible to catch a Warg who wants to flee; and the same often remains true in small group fights as well.
Well yes and no. You just have to know how to go about it. I'm not about to give away warg secrets here, but suffice it to say that there are ways to counter the warg's escape skills, such as forcing them to burn them up early or using skills to negate them. It won't always work, if it did then there would be no point in those skills existing in the first place, but played the right way a warg's 'escape' skills can be mitigated to an extent.
Last edited by MrWarg; Jul 17 2012 at 12:40 AM.
Follow on Twitter: @theartofwarg | LOTRO Players Council
1. Sprint is normally on CD cos we use it to get someone on a 168% horse. Usually, if we're fighting sprinting is not an option. If someone hits us with a quick stun it eradicates it straight away. If I have got a sprint left, loads of freeps attack and sometimes I need to escape. Usually its too late, stun, ritual fire/whatever and I'm toast.
2. HIPs is not really a getout clause, I don't know what other wargs do but I'll HIPs during a fight to get a second stun on the target, so using it to escape ain't really an option. Anyway, If you're hit with a few dots you maybe get 20m before you become visible again.
Do I need to fraps, to show you how untrue is what you are sayin? Maybe you doing that... but please... 99% of wargs not. I even don't know how to discuss with such a false statement.
Do I need to fraps, to show you how untrue is what you are sayin? Maybe you doing that... but please... most of wargs not. I even don't know how to discuss with such a false statement.
Fixed for Arryanor.
Good morning!
Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. (Felathurin aka Brunt)
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It's funny because it's true!
Originally Posted by Gheno
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)over-population is though(think its what Miretocot means also)and its killing ettens action
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